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[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5131663]So how should Robin become Nightwing?[/QUOTE]
Maybe it is because the type of stories I like, but I would rather that Dick becomes Nightwing in a story that totally focus on him.
Many say that Dick becomes Nightwing in a good story like Judas Contract.
However, I was dissapointed in that aspect of the story since Dick is hardly the focus there. I think he dissapear most of the arc, while the transition to Nightwing is two or three pages.
I think that if Dick stayed Robin he would be where Tim is at now. Perpetually 17-19. Sure he's be a lot more iconic or higher status- a twofold effect of retaining the iconic mantle and that mantle not being degraded by a rotating cast of successors. There would be no other Robins leading the Titans, no other partners to Batman, only Dick. But at what cost? It'd rob a lot of what makes the character appealing to me now.
[QUOTE=Badou;5131259]The only problem with deaging Dick would have been with characters like Wally West. Since he and Dick are the same age and if he is running around as Flash then you might have some continuity problems if Dick is being written younger as Robin. Maybe DC would have decided to reboot all of their younger characters if they were okay with deaging Dick which would have caused an avalanche of changes. There are so many variables to account for with all this that it is tough to line everything up and guess how it all would have played out. It is fun to think about though, lol.
[/QUOTE]
Wally wouldn't have become the new Flash after Crisis on Infinite Earths if Dick hadn't become Nightwing. He wasn't the original plan, they were going to create a completely new Flash.
[QUOTE=Pohzee;5131713]I think that if Dick stayed Robin he would be where Tim is at now. Perpetually 17-19. Sure he's be a lot more iconic or higher status- a twofold effect of retaining the iconic mantle and that mantle not being degraded by a rotating cast of successors. There would be no other Robins leading the Titans, no other partners to Batman, only Dick. But at what cost? It'd rob a lot of what makes the character appealing to me now.[/QUOTE]
Well, Dick is perpetually 20s now. He is still considered a sidekick by DC, but he doesn't have the iconic mantle.
Honestly, the only way Dick could be totally independent and grow is if NTT mantained its success. They will likely reduce the age difference between Bruce and Dick, so both could be adults.
That said, I don't know if the concept of NTT (teen heroes looking for their place) could last a long time, which will always be problem in comics.
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5131663]So how should Robin become Nightwing?[/QUOTE]
Ideally it would happen in some iconic story. Origin stories should be the easiest to make iconic, but Judas Contract isn't canon anymore and the origin of Bruce firing Dick from Robin and that being what makes him take on a new identity is horrible in my opinion. Bruce firing him and taking the Robin identity away completely removes all of Dick own agency for his growth as a hero. Bruce taking away an identity that Dick created himself just never sat well with me.
[QUOTE=Pohzee;5131713]I think that if Dick stayed Robin he would be where Tim is at now. Perpetually 17-19. Sure he's be a lot more iconic or higher status- a twofold effect of retaining the iconic mantle and that mantle not being degraded by a rotating cast of successors. There would be no other Robins leading the Titans, no other partners to Batman, only Dick. But at what cost? It'd rob a lot of what makes the character appealing to me now.[/QUOTE]
Well that would also depend on if the Batman office tried to create new sidekicks for Batman with new identities if Dick kept the Robin identity and they didn't deage him. So he could be where he is at as Nightwing now, but maybe with a higher ceiling because the Robin identity is bigger than Nightwing. Although Dick now isn't aging anymore anyway. They did deage him to 21 for the New 52, so he has kind of reached his limit of how old DC will ever make him.
It is always a bit weird to me that Dick created the Robin identity and wore it for 40 years, but he doesn't have any ownership of it. It feels more like Batman owns it these days and decided who gets to be it.
[QUOTE=Digifiend;5131763]Wally wouldn't have become the new Flash after Crisis on Infinite Earths if Dick hadn't become Nightwing. He wasn't the original plan, they were going to create a completely new Flash.[/QUOTE]
I always figured Wally was their first choice.
[QUOTE=Badou;5131943]
Well that would also depend on if the Batman office tried to create new sidekicks for Batman with new identities if Dick kept the Robin identity and they didn't deage him. So he could be where he is at as Nightwing now, but maybe with a higher ceiling because the Robin identity is bigger than Nightwing. Although Dick now isn't aging anymore anyway. They did deage him to 21 for the New 52, so he has kind of reached his limit of how old DC will ever make him.
It is always a bit weird to me that Dick created the Robin identity and wore it for 40 years, but he doesn't have any ownership of it. It feels more like Batman owns it these days and decided who gets to be it.[/QUOTE]
The problem is the strongest association of Robin is with Batman in general audience minds (even stronger than the association of Robin mantle with Dick).
That's why it is considered that Batman has the ownership with the identity. Only some big Dick fans (and not all) will care about Dick opinion about the new Robin.
Batgirl has a similar situation about this, since people associate her a lot with Batman (that's why Batman end up being a mentor for Batgirl after some retcons). However, in Barbara's case, the way she lost the identity make some of her fans more vocal if she was ignored in the decision.
[QUOTE=Konja7;5131966]
Batgirl has a similar situation about this, since people associate her a lot with Batman (that's why Batman end up being a mentor for Batgirl after some retcons). However, in Barbara's case, the way she lost the identity make some of her fans more vocal if she was ignored in the decision.[/QUOTE]
In-universe, Barbara is VERY possessive of Batgirl post-Crisis. It is HER name. She is outraged when a new Batgirl appears during No Man's Land, moreso when she finds out it's Huntress and shuts down Charlotte as Batgirl, actively scaring her off the vigilante life (only for her to return as Misfit) and initially disapproved of Stephanie before she prove herself. It's definitely different from Robin. Batman owning the name is the in-universe reason Dick gave it up; Robin is Batman's sidekick and that wasn't him anymore.
[QUOTE=Bikkun;5131989]In-universe, Barbara is VERY possessive of Batgirl post-Crisis. It is HER name. She is outraged when a new Batgirl appears during No Man's Land, moreso when she finds out it's Huntress and shuts down Charlotte as Batgirl, actively scaring her off the vigilante life (only for her to return as Misfit) and initially disapproved of Stephanie before she prove herself. It's definitely different from Robin. Batman owning the name is the in-universe reason Dick gave it up; Robin is Batman's sidekick and that wasn't him anymore.[/QUOTE]
Dick as Robin has a good amount of independent stories (and not only with Teen Titans). So, Dick as Robin being exclusively Batman's sidekick is people rewriting story due to concepts they associate with a character.
My point is that Batgirl has a strong association with Batman and there is an idea that Batman has certain ownership about that identity too. That's why Batman becomes mentor of Batgirl after some retcons (when she was pretty independent at first). Also, I remember some fans think Bruce will have some power of decision on Stephanie mantaining Batgirl mantle (in fact, Bruce had influence there) even when Barbara has already accepted her.
Well the way things are going batman gonna have ownership of nightwing and who can be it.
[QUOTE=WonderNight;5132262]Well the way things are going batman gonna have ownership of nightwing and who can be it.[/QUOTE]
What? Why? Dick is Nightwing again, like, this month.
[QUOTE=Bikkun;5132278]What? Why? Dick is Nightwing again, like, this month.[/QUOTE]
Just wait for the next batman event. Dick may get shot in his famous butt next time.
Dick is becoming nightwing again in batman's book. I'd say where mostly at the point where batman controls nightwing.
Dick becoming Nightwing again is meaningless. He is just going right back to Jurgens so Jurgens can repeat the same thing he's been doing on Ric over and over. As to returning to Robin. Well they aren't, and haven't, been doing any better with Robin then they have with Nightwing.
[QUOTE=WonderNight;5132262]Well the way things are going batman gonna have ownership of nightwing and who can be it.[/QUOTE]
He already does. I mean it's canceled after fans found out and there's a backlash, but Harper was going to be Nightwing in Batman Eternal. Then there's King's idea of making Tim Nightwing which we don't know if it's Tim or Bruce's idea. The only thing preventing it to be an actual written canon is the fans, but for all intents and purposes, DC already considers Nightwing to belong to Batman, with Seeley as the known exception.
Switching topic
We talked about Dick's first time, but who's his first kiss?
In Rebirth as far as we know it was Babs, during her first adventure together with him as Batgirl and Robin, in Summer of Lies.
In New 52 Dick's first crushes were Raya and Babs, but he didn't become involved with Raya until the present day
[QUOTE=Restingvoice;5132386]He already does. I mean it's canceled after fans found out and there's a backlash, but Harper was going to be Nightwing in Batman Eternal. Then there's King's idea of making Tim Nightwing which we don't know if it's Tim or Bruce's idea. The only thing preventing it to be an actual written canon is the fans, but for all intents and purposes, DC already considers Nightwing to belong to Batman, with Seeley as the known exception.
Switching topic
We talked about Dick's first time, but who's his first kiss?
In Rebirth as far as we know it was Babs, during her first adventure together with him as Batgirl and Robin, in Summer of Lies.
In New 52 Dick's first crushes were Raya and Babs, but he didn't become involved with Raya until the present day[/QUOTE]
Tim becoming Nightwing was never a thing. It was an idea that King came up with in a podcast.
it was never proposed to editorial.
If the idea had gone ahead than it would be a decision tim would make not Bruce. bruce doesn't get input into nightwing or bludhaven. There is no precedence.
Dick Grayson just like Harley Quinn, huntress etc are all batman supporting characters no matter how big they get they all still come under the Batman media franchise. Until they become so big to be their own franchises then they will always be seen by DC as Batman's support sadly
[QUOTE=dietrich;5132398]Tim becoming Nightwing was never a thing. It was an idea that King came up with in a podcast.
it was never proposed to editorial.
If the idea had gone ahead than it would be a decision tim would make not Bruce. bruce doesn't get input into nightwing or bludhaven. There is no precedence.[/QUOTE]
They never pitch the Tim one, but the Harper case did go as far as character design, and I don't see her just picking that identity on her own, she never even met him up to that point, so it has to be Bruce's idea. With Tim, it makes sense if he wants to take it on his own if he's written as his Post-Crisis self but King likes to change stuff or make up his own story, so who knows.