Dick Grayson: Robin / Nightwing Appreciation 2020

[QUOTE=Rakiduam;4899672]So everybody was talking about weaknesses and you go with flaws. Jason fans always hamering the same discourse "he has a mean streak" "he has a temper" "he is not close to Jason". Talking about assholes, it wasn't Dick the one that stood up in front of a burning city and laughed.

What are you even doing in this anyway thread?[/QUOTE]

I tend to think that flaws are weaknesses. Sorry if my post was somehow offensive O.o.

Dick is my second fav character from the batfam. I didn't know that having one that I like more than him banned me from posting here :P

[QUOTE=Zaresh;4899690]I tend to think that flaws are weaknesses. Sorry if my post was somehow offensive O.o.

Dick is my second fav character from the batfam. I didn't know that having one that I like more than him banned me from posting here :P[/QUOTE]

Sure...frankly I don't see how can you enjoy anything, if that is how you feel about a character you like.

People are still pissed about BFTC I see, LoL.

[QUOTE=Rakiduam;4899704]Sure...frankly I don't see how can you enjoy anything, if that is how you feel about a character you like.[/QUOTE]

I enjoy flawed characters. They feel real, and symphathetic. I can relate to them and can enjoy their messes too when I don't (or getting mad at them: that's a way of enjoying it if you see them growing out of it). I don't like perfectly virtuous characters; they feel either unture or boring to me.

John Constantine is another of my faves, for example. And he's a character that I find myself getting mad at, sometimes, with the sh×t he pulls.

[QUOTE=Zaresh;4899711]I enjoy flawed characters. They feel real, and symphathetic. I can relate to them and can enjoy their messes too when I don't (or getting mad at them: that's a way of enjoying it if you see them growing out of it). I don't like perfectly virtuous characters; they feel either unture or boring to me.

John Constantine is another of my faves, for example. And he's a character that I find myself getting mad at, sometimes, with the sh×t he pulls.[/QUOTE]

Funny, I have never thought of Dick or Constantine as weak characters, but perceptions depend a lot of the spectators too I guess.

[QUOTE=Godlike13;4899709]People are still pissed about BFTC I see, LoL.[/QUOTE]
Quick someone call kenan and kel because Aw, Here it goes ;)

If we are just to use what DC gives us. His fighting skills are generally above any of the Robins or Batgirls. Thanks to his training and his upbringing. Yet Dc does drop it. Now detective hard to say. Tim is often stated to be the best. Babs is also. Yet Dick is often hard to say they go up and now. Yea I don't get why DC makes him a cheater or too naive. I mean given what he has seen he would be a little less naive. Now angry never often though him as having a bad angry issue.

For the most part, since they generally have the Batfam have some issues with Bruce. It's Dick who is often the mediator. I hope when Ric situation is ended he and Jason can repair their relationship.

[QUOTE=Rakiduam;4899727]Funny, I have never thought of Dick or Constantine as weak characters, but perceptions depend a lot of the spectators too I guess.[/QUOTE]

Flaws are weaknesses in the sense that they make the character more human. And they let them fall into emotional and personal struggles. Look at Rebirth Nightwing, for example, after Dick had the news about Shawn being pregnant. He panicqued a bit, which is just to be expected. But him telling her afterwards (when he already knew she wasn't expecting), that he was wondering if their kid would learn bad copying mechanisms from her instead of good from him, now, that was the nail to their relationship. I remember reading it and thinking "wew, Dick, you could've done much, much better that that. You're bassically calling her a rotten apple."

And it wasn't the only time I've found myself thinking that. I think reading NTT I thought the same once, regarding Kori. And maybe he has done something like that to Babs too, once or twice. And Tim in Red Robin, at the start of that book.

About Constantine, John's flaws are his biggest weakness. It's how he finds himself so much trouble, and how he finds himself so alone. Or, well, it was like that before New 52.

Btw. I think a comic that shows the difference between Bruce and Dicks style of Crime fighting is imo Batman Adventures Vol.2 #12.

[QUOTE=Zaresh;4899758]Flaws are weaknesses in the sense that they make the character more human. And they let them fall into emotional and personal struggles. Look at Rebirth Nightwing, for example, after Dick had the news about Shawn being pregnant. He panicqued a bit, which is just to be expected. But him telling her afterwards (when he already knew she wasn't expecting), that he was wondering if their kid would learn bad copying mechanisms from her instead of good from him, now, that was the nail to their relationship. I remember reading it and thinking "wew, Dick, you could've done much, much better that that. You're bassically calling her a rotten apple."[/QUOTE]

I really like that because it's a realistic flaw for someone who often in the position of good or righteousness, views himself as good or being viewed as good and right by other people. There's a danger of Arrogance, in this case, Nightwing has been a hero through and through and Shawn is a reformed villain, so [I]obviously[/I] if there's a bad influence, it will be hers, and it's something that can be said without thinking.

Superman's had that streak too. When he's visiting Titans, he acts like such a mentor, trying to train the misfit kids when he knew nothing about the kids.

That moment was extremely Dick Grayson, maybe more Dick than Dick had been since 2011. Dick is actually an asshole pretty often, even to people he loves. Sure, he's a great hero and leader, sure he's kind and compassionate, but yeah he's also pretty mean sometimes. That's what makes him human.

Has Dc ever been pushing his asshole too much? Also how do you guys feel about Dick often is displayed as a Cheater? I don’t know they often have for it just for plot at times. i guess to never get him into any romantic relationship. I mean often Dick is the most stable. Yea he can brood but he often is calm.

When Ric is over how should this play out? Can we just have Dick never remember this?

Dick can be a dick sure, and his world view beyond being a superhero is actually rather limited. But sometimes it’s ok to be a dick to someone. Jason fans explaining how he has prejudices and he's too quick to judge people, or is too self righteous. Well it’s not hard to read under the lines there LoL. Damian fans might disagree though. Even with Rebirth Nightwing and Shawn, his first instinct was the date her knowing she used to be a villain. For a time his supporting cast was even made up of ex-villains.

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4900279]Has Dc ever been pushing his asshole too much? Also how do you guys feel about Dick often is displayed as a Cheater? I don’t know they often have for it just for plot at times. i guess to never get him into any romantic relationship. I mean often Dick is the most stable. Yea he can brood but he often is calm.

When Ric is over how should this play out? Can we just have Dick never remember this?[/QUOTE]

He cheated one time. And there were particular circumstances to it.

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4900279]I mean often Dick is the most stable. [/QUOTE]Not allways, he was seeing a therapist during the NTT era, he wasn't in the best place after his wedding attempt with Starfire, he had a complete breakdown after Tarantua killed Blockbuster, he iirc quit being Nightwing after Infinite Crisis ...

[QUOTE=Godlike13;4900296]Dick can be a dick sure, and his world view beyond being a superhero is actually rather limited. But sometimes it’s ok to be a dick to someone. Jason fans explaining how he has prejudices and he's too quick to judge people, or is too self righteous. Well it’s not hard to read under the lines there LoL. Damian fans might disagree though. Even with Rebirth Nightwing and Shawn, his first instinct was the date her knowing she used to be a villain. For a time his supporting cast was even made up of ex-villains.[/QUOTE]

I wasn't even mentioning Jason here. He's a mess by himself, and that's actually something that most of us like about him: we see him struggling, we see him failing, and we see him still trying to make the best of himself despite of that. What Dick does or doesn't do to him isn't relevant here either. But if you want me to talk about BFTC (was that what some of you implied before?)? That was as much out of character for Dick as it was for Jason or Tim. Dick isn't that manipulative, not for hurting. If he manipulates (and he does sometimes, but he doesn't reach Tim's levels of manipulation), he does so either to teach something to someone, or to distract someone of other stuff. There, he manipulated Jason just so he would be hurt enough to win a battle. That's under what he does, more so when he still thought of Jason as someone close, way closer than any rogue out there, even if jot exactly family (something arguable). Which brings me to another thing that felt out of character in Morrison's run, even if it wasn't as dissapointing as what happened to Jason there: Dick being so hesitant about his role and performance as Batman, and him being kind of insensive to his rogues at times (they were big dicks, but Dick being how he was was, et... He's more "rightfull but quippy" than how he was). I get why Morrison was doing it, but it robbed the character of some of his appeal for me (by the means of reducing his emotional conflcist to a handfull of them, or less, and writing him too black or white. Very silveragey, which was probably what he wanted). I love Dick as Batman, though, because all in all was a very fun read (not BFTC, that book was bad, but it wasn't Morrison either, so...)

I wasn't saying that he is always holding prejudices, I was saying that he sometimes does, and that they tend to make him fail with people he actually loves. It's realistic, it happens. Liking, caring and rationally understanding Shawn's or Damian's background doesn't mean he's not going to fall into judging people bassed in his views fabricated before contact to the issue at conflict now and then. And him being a hero, a clean hero who rarely has dealt into grays (Huntress, Spiral people, Deathstroke) like @restingvoice said, is a flaw that feels realistic.

[QUOTE=Aahz;4900338]Not allways, he was seeing a therapist during the NTT era, he wasn't in the best place after his wedding attempt with Starfire, he had a complete breakdown after Tarantua killed Blockbuster, he iirc quit being Nightwing after Infinite Crisis ...[/QUOTE]

Steph, followed by Cas and Tim are the most stable as far as I know about them (which isn't much in the case of Cass or Steph). They still have to deal with heavy issues, but they seem to less prone to break (Tim tends to obsessive behaviour, though).

[QUOTE=Aahz;4900338]Not allways, he was seeing a therapist during the NTT era, he wasn't in the best place after his wedding attempt with Starfire, he had a complete breakdown after Tarantua killed Blockbuster, he iirc quit being Nightwing after Infinite Crisis ...[/QUOTE]

He didn't quit being Nightwing after Infinite Crisis. Dick, Bruce and Tim got a year vacation. It is shown in the book called 52.

Also, seeing a therapist is actually something good, since most of this characters are scarred for life, he at least was searching for help.

[QUOTE=Drako;4900471]He didn't quit being Nightwing after Infinite Crisis. Dick, Bruce and Tim got a year vacation. It is shown in the book called 52.

Also, seeing a therapist is actually something good, since most of this characters are scarred for life, he at least was searching for help.[/QUOTE]

More should.
It could do for a nice book.

Damn, Heroes in Crisis had so much potential...

[QUOTE=Drako;4900471]He didn't quit being Nightwing after Infinite Crisis. Dick, Bruce and Tim got a year vacation. It is shown in the book called 52.[/QUOTE]I might remember it wrong but I thought he was retired at the beginning of "Nightwing: Brothers in Blood" but I might be wrong and have no desire to reread this story.

He quit after War Games. IC made him return.

Yeah, he got injured during War Games, so he quit, and Robin and Batgirl took over protecting Bludhaven... until it was destroyed a year later.

[QUOTE=Aahz;4899894]Btw. I think a comic that shows the difference between Bruce and Dicks style of Crime fighting is imo Batman Adventures Vol.2 #12.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Dick using the media to his advantage in his war against crime really showed the difference between him and the Batman.

[QUOTE=Jackalope89;4899372]Others have listed Dick's strengths. One of his weaknesses was getting along with Jason. Pre-New52, he and Jason weren't close. Especially compared to Dick with Tim and Damian. Even after coming back to life, pre or post New52, the two were never that close (though they had some good moments in the first Rebirth annual of Red Hood).

Best I can say, before the "ric" thing, the two didn't hate one another and could work together. But were not exactly close.[/QUOTE]

Why is not getting along with Jason a weakness though?

Jason tried to kill him, Tim and shot a 10 year old boy in the spine. When Dick was captured and tortured in Forever Evil, Jason didn't lift a finger to help him but upon learning Dick was alive the first thing he did was throw a punch. Dick was recently shot in the head, the only interaction Jason has had with him is to tell him he's not part of the family, at a memorial service for Alfred no less. He has no reason to like Jason. How is it that Dick is always held accountable for their poor relationship but Jason gets a pass?

When Bruce redefined the Batfam after his return in... #500? Damian asked that means he and Dick had to separate, and he said no since they work together so well and can guard Gotham while he's off collecting Batman from all over the world.

But we also know that Nightwing doesn't like capes if he can help it and he doesn't like to be Batman. He was very reluctant. At the same time, he'll be Batman if Bruce needs him, and he doesn't have Bludhaven anymore.

So if there's never a reboot, would Nightwing ever quit being Batman and left Damian with Bruce? Even with Leviathan defeated, Talia and Damian...

Oooh... there it is. I bet he'll quit after Damian died.

I think if Dick had quit after Damian died, it wouldn't have lasted. Dick doesn't know any other life. And I don't think he really wants one, even if he tries to talk himself into believing it sometimes. A year after the funeral, and Dick would've been back swinging across rooftops.

He may have taken the opportunity to dump the Bat cowl and gone back to his own identity though.

[QUOTE=Lady Nightwing;4901365]Why is not getting along with Jason a weakness though?

Jason tried to kill him, Tim and shot a 10 year old boy in the spine. When Dick was captured and tortured in Forever Evil, Jason didn't lift a finger to help him but upon learning Dick was alive the first thing he did was throw a punch. Dick was recently shot in the head, the only interaction Jason has had with him is to tell him he's not part of the family, at a memorial service for Alfred no less. He has no reason to like Jason. How is it that Dick is always held accountable for their poor relationship but Jason gets a pass?[/QUOTE]

Not to want to argue, I don't want someone to complain about Jason fans intruding here again, but wasn't the one who shot Damian that time other guy, though? Flamingo during Dickbats, and then Heretic killed him in inc.

Edit: I lost my quote halfway posting it seems.

[QUOTE=Zaresh;4901662]Not to want to argue, I don't want someone to complain about Jason fans intruding here again, but wasn't the one who shot Damian that time other guy, though? Flamingo during Dickbats, and then Heretic killed him in inc.

Edit: I lost my quote halfway posting it seems.[/QUOTE]

You know what you could be right. Probably are. Jason was the fake death trap? I need to reread that run

[QUOTE=Lady Nightwing;4901365]Why is not getting along with Jason a weakness though?

Jason tried to kill him, Tim and [B]shot a 10 year old boy in the spine[/B]. When Dick was captured and tortured in Forever Evil, Jason didn't lift a finger to help him but upon learning Dick was alive the first thing he did was throw a punch. Dick was recently shot in the head, the only interaction Jason has had with him is to tell him he's not part of the family, at a memorial service for Alfred no less. He has no reason to like Jason. How is it that Dick is always held accountable for their poor relationship but Jason gets a pass?[/QUOTE]




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[QUOTE=Lady Nightwing;4901693]You know what you could be right. Probably are. Jason was the fake death trap? I need to reread that run[/QUOTE]

Geez, it pains me to remember. Jason was so unJason in that run, there's a reason no Jason fan likes it. But as far as I remember, Jason seized Damian and hold him hostage in some bizarre scheme. It was around the first twelve issues, I think.

[QUOTE=Ascended;4901553]I think if Dick had quit after Damian died, it wouldn't have lasted. Dick doesn't know any other life. And I don't think he really wants one, even if he tries to talk himself into believing it sometimes. A year after the funeral and Dick would've been back swinging across rooftops.

He may have taken the opportunity to dump the Bat cowl and gone back to his own identity though.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that's what I meant. Not quitting superhero, just the Batman cowl.

After that... did Zucco died in Post Crisis, was Year 3 still canon?

It was in BFTC where Jason shot Damian.

[QUOTE=Godlike13;4901803]It was in BFTC where Jason shot Damian.[/QUOTE]

He wasn't responsible for Damian getting his back broken, was my point.
Jason has attacked Tim (mostly, and hard), Damian and Dick as some point.
Same as Damian has attacked Jason and Tim. Or Dick and Tim going for Jason in Countdown.

Yeah, familial love at his finest.

No, he was just probably responsible for him getting a new lung. And yes, those are comparative.

Wait. I thought Jason and Dick somewhat fixed his relationship with Dick. So should or shouldn’t they have a good relationship?

Shouldn’t. Just because Lobdell rips off Tim’s origin doesn’t excuse Jason’s multiple attempts to maim and/or murder the others. Sometimes it’s ok not to get along with someone.

[QUOTE=Godlike13;4901902]Shouldn’t. Just because Lobdell rips off Tim’s origin doesn’t excuse Jason’s multiple attempts to maim and/or murder the others. Sometimes it’s ok not to get along with someone.[/QUOTE]

Lobdell didn't rip off Tim's origin.

Is it that hard to believe that Jason would go to the circus and be amazed by the Graysons, when the Graysons were touring and stopping in Gotham every year or so? I would rather believe it was a common thing for kids then.

And then Jason got to meet the real stuff. It's something you end up remembering because it is memorable.

Edit: and they worked fine before that. In Seeley's Nightwing, in Batman and Robin Eternal. In Robin War. It's not too weird or unbelieabable that they sort of made amends, to certain degree.

Hard to believe, maybe maybe not. Original, certainly not.

I thought people agree that Battle for The Cowl is stupid and shouldn't be canon? At least that seems to be the consensus back when it came out? What's with Damian randomly picking up girls, Jason randomly going on a rampage even though he should've been at least smarter than that, and it is Tony Daniel's first writing gig which he bound to get [I]some[/I] things wrong?

I remember everyone back then suggested to skip Battle for The Cowl and go with Batman Long Shadows instead if they want to read about Batman transition.

[QUOTE=Godlike13;4901913]Hard to believe, maybe maybe not. Original, certainly not.[/QUOTE]

Well, originality is subjective. Tim's origin still has a lot of differences. For starters, he witnessed the actual murder. And then (years later), seeked for Dick. You could argue a lot of Tim's gimmicks were copying other characters, that doesn't mean he was unoriginal or uninspired. Probably the only original thing in the whole Robin franchise is the concept of a (kid) hero sidekick itself (which is why Dick is "the original sidekick"), as the partner of an adult hero. And I'm not sure it wasn't something that happened in adventure books back in the day.