Dick Grayson: Robin / Nightwing Appreciation 2020

[QUOTE=Badou;4909711]The Kryptonian relationship to the Nightwing name is basically irrelevant to Dick's character these days. It is one of those things I think fans put far more weight on than the actual creators do. Dick basically has no relationship with Superman or the Superman family anymore outside of maybe Dick and Clark crossing paths once every 5 or so years in a story. There has been a consistent push to try and erase the connection to the Kryptonian legend from what I have seen.

Near the start of Rebirth there was a small push to try and have the Nightwing name come from the Court of Owls. They hinted that the Night + Wing of the name actually represents an Owl. I bet in the future they will try to push that again given how obsessed they are with Dick and the Owls despite Dick never having a truly great Owls story to justify any of it. Then there was the live action Titans TV show where they came up with some completely different origin for the Nightwing name that Dick got while in some prison in South America or something stupid. Finally the Kryptonian element of every other media Nightwing adaptation is completely ignored or overlooked. It just doesn't really seem to matter overall.

I personally prefer the Kryptonian element of the name, but I bet they will eventually retcon it into something else. It just feels like that is the direction things will eventually go.[/QUOTE]

Well yeah DC wants everything about dick's character to come from Batman. Dick's super connections are nonexistent, the new 52 erased his titans history, his history with starfire was just a fling now, Wally and donna were erased.

DC just see's nightwing as a supporting character to Batman so everything about him has to come from or be about the batman mythos. That's why alot of people still see nightwing as a sidekick and a stepping stone to batman.

I don't want that for dick but it is what it is. But when fans tell me nightwing is his own man I just laugh.

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4909779]Should Dick ever even be part of the court?

Should we fix Dick’s relationship with Clark? Like Him having a relationship with Clark?[/QUOTE]

As long as the court is popular dick will be apart of it.

Should dick's relationship with clark be fixed. Yes will DC let it? No Clark isn't from the bat mythos so him and Clark will rarely talk or see each other.

[QUOTE=Badou;4909711]The Kryptonian relationship to the Nightwing name is basically irrelevant to Dick's character these days. It is one of those things I think fans put far more weight on than the actual creators do. Dick basically has no relationship with Superman or the Superman family anymore outside of maybe Dick and Clark crossing paths once every 5 or so years in a story. There has been a consistent push to try and erase the connection to the Kryptonian legend from what I have seen.

Near the start of Rebirth there was a small push to try and have the Nightwing name come from the Court of Owls. They hinted that the Night + Wing of the name actually represents an Owl. I bet in the future they will try to push that again given how obsessed they are with Dick and the Owls despite Dick never having a truly great Owls story to justify any of it. Then there was the live action Titans TV show where they came up with some completely different origin for the Nightwing name that Dick got while in some prison in South America or something stupid. Finally the Kryptonian element of every other media Nightwing adaptation is completely ignored or overlooked. It just doesn't really seem to matter overall.

I personally prefer the Kryptonian element of the name, but I bet they will eventually retcon it into something else. It just feels like that is the direction things will eventually go.[/QUOTE]

That's all true, but what is isn't what should be.

Do you guys think Dick should be part of the court? I feel this worsts him being able to use the Circus ever again. I mean if we were to use the YJ animated series, this is where he used Haley's Circus as a cover. In the comics the court is using it. Unless Dick knew this and is a double agent

No, the Court has become their lazy go to. They play with the idea too much with no consistency or awareness of the times before.

I feel like he should keep Cobb as one of his villains, but not the whole court of owls since it's very overused now of days.

In this topic, which villains you guys think his gallery should have?

Cobb is a no-brainer to me. Raptor should come back, he is the best one Dick had in a while. He should take Lady Vic back. I would like a new take on Shrike too. Maaybe Saiko? He was a little lame at the end though.

Those are good villains for him to fight, but i can't think of any good cerebral ones and i don't really care for Blockbuster.. By the end of Black Mirror i wanted James Jr. as his "Joker" but right now he is a Batgirl villain. Maybe Judge? Prankster was lame too. Higgins was not good at creating villains.

Come to think of it, Minos could be a choice.

Maybe lesser known villains. Because I don’t want a Batman villain becoming a Nightwing Villain. I do feel Blockbuster could stillbr one. Maybe Deathstroke can be one. When you mean Joker are you seeing his archenemy?

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4910176]Maybe lesser known villains. Because I don’t want a Batman villain becoming a Nightwing Villain. I do feel Blockbuster could stillbr one. Maybe Deathstroke can be one. When you mean Joker are you seeing his archenemy?[/QUOTE]

Yes, as archenemy. In Black Mirror James Jr was depicted kinda like a the reverse Dick Grayson, so to me would be cool to have him in the gallery, but he became a villain for Barbara, which make sense for the character as well.

[QUOTE=Drako;4910185]Yes, as archenemy. In Black Mirror James Jr was depicted kinda like a the reverse Dick Grayson, so to me would be cool to have him in the gallery, [B]but he became a villain for Barbara, which make sense for the character as well.[/B][/QUOTE]

Need the fact that Gordon wished his first-born to be a son in [I]Year One[/I] to be played up, just to reflect the irony of how James Jr. and Barbara turned out respectively.

As for Dick, Jason would have been the perfect inverse for him but DC wanted him to become an anti-hero.

Cobb should definitely be a major rogue. And the Court should stick around too. They're overused and poorly used, so they should be put on the shelf for a little while, but the Court of Owls is a good concept and their connections to Dick aren't going anywhere. So give them a break, but yes they should be part of the rogues gallery.

Dixon gave us plenty of villains worth keeping; Blockbuster of course, Lady Vic, Brutale, Double Dare, Soames, etc.

Raptor definitely is worth keeping.

Professor Pyg, Flamingo, and the Circus of Strange all started as Dick villains, even if he was wearing pointy ears, and should remain Dick villains.

I'd take the HIVE from the Titans gallery and give them to Dick. I feel like one good way to show those heroes have grown and improved since the NTT era is to split the NTT rogues among the individual heroes; HIVE for Nightwing, the Fearsome Five for Cyborg, Cult of Blood for Raven, etc.

Flamingo would be cool. He's not used very often and appeared "recently" in the Nightwing book.

[QUOTE=Badou;4909711]The Kryptonian relationship to the Nightwing name is basically irrelevant to Dick's character these days. It is one of those things I think fans put far more weight on than the actual creators do. Dick basically has no relationship with Superman or the Superman family anymore outside of maybe Dick and Clark crossing paths once every 5 or so years in a story.[/QUOTE]It is not like there was much of a relationship beyond Dick beeing in there in the Batman/Superman crossovers and a few team ups of him and Jimmy Olsen in World's finest in the Silverage.
But this relation was never as close or as important as his relation with the Titans or the rest of the Batfamily.

[QUOTE=Badou;4909711]There has been a consistent push to try and erase the connection to the Kryptonian legend from what I have seen.[/QUOTE]Asfar as I know connection was anyway only mentioned in Nightwing: Year One, and that was published roughly 15-20 years after he became Nightwing.

Yeah, over the years Dick has had plenty of pretty decent rogues to choose from.

[B]Crazy Quilt-[/B] the episode of him The Brave in the Bold was fantastic. You've got this super campy art collector/thief that goes blind from an encounter with Dick while he was Robin. He's got the Color Guard, these beefy shirtless dudes all painted mono-chromatically. This vibe is so trippy and campy and weird. I'm about it.

[B]Pyg[/B]- Man. I can't say enough about Pyg. This guy should be Dicks joker-level threat. He could also be Dick's Dark Mirror in place of James Jr. Dick, whether he's in fingerstipes, pointy ears, or pixie books, is about inspiring hope in people. He is a showman. He was mentored by Batman and Superman alike. He's about inspiring hope, not fear. His "performance" is aimed at making people believe the best in humanity, the best in themselves. Pyg is a performer too. With his circus of the strange, he says "I want to be sick in front of everyone." Dick is the well adjusted loving older brother who encourages his proteges to be themselves rather than miniature versions of himself; Pyg creates dozens of identical dollotrons. Bonus- Pygs history with Spyral, with the psychotropic drugs unhinging his brain!

[B]Cobb [/B]is a good villain for him, he's just been painfully misused of late. The [B]Owls [/B](whether Court or [B]Parliament[/B]) are absolutely worth keeping around; they just need a good long break.

[B]Raptor [/B]was brilliant.

I think [B]Deathstroke [/B]has surpassed the realm of being in anyone rogues gallery, but he should be a rival of sorts. He should be this anti-mentor from Dick's past. They should be in conflict from time to time.

[B]Red Hood [/B]was one of the major villains for the Batman Reborn era, but as someone said DC wants him to be an anti-hero now (almost just a hero IMO). Regardless, Jason and Dick should be heated rivals, not loving brothers. Perhaps they aren't enemies, but they despise and distrust each other.

There are a handful of villains from the Dixon days that are worth hanging on to. [B]Lady Vic [/B]and [B]Double Dare[/B] top that list for me. [B]Electrocutioner [/B]and [B]Brutale [/B]a rung beneath them in my mind but worth keeping; they are like spiderman villains in the best way possible. I was never convinced with [B]Shrike[/B], but he may be worth revisiting and breathing some new life into, particularly because I think his back story involves some undercover/spy stuff form a young Dick Grayson.

[B]Blockbuster [/B]is too big not to keep, but I'd want him to be more of a member of the rouges gallery than the Kingpin.

Dudley Soames worked better as a crooked cop than as Torque. "The Inspector" is worth keeping in a way Torque never was.

And, I almost forgot; my favorite idea for resurrecting concepts for a great Dick Grayson Villain- combine the Saiko and [B]Raya [/B]concepts. Bring Raya back from the dead, but Talon-ized, and she blames Dick Grayson for everything! I felt like she was the most well developed supporting character from the Court of Owls build up.

I still would like to see Tiger as a Nightwing villain. I'm almost 100% certain that the script of Better Than Batman was adapted from a Grayson storyline with Tiger, but there's still so much potential there.

Superficially they both fulfill the partner/mentor role whose methods challenge Dick's beliefs. Both are anti-capitalist, anti-American imperialism and see Dick as blindly ignorant to his privileges. Both use more violent methods that could challenge Batman's strict moral principles. Etc.

I'm curious with how big DC is do you guys think there are villains outside the Batfam that would work? Characters that aren't used much?

They could also bring back [URL="https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Clock_II_(Earth-Two)"]The Clock[/URL] from his Golden Age Solos Stories and [URL="https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/David_Corby_(Earth-One)"]The Raven[/URL] from his Time at Hudson University, both were iirc the biggest villains from those eras.

[URL="https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Katherine_Riordan_(New_Earth)"]Hella[/URL] was also a petty cool villain from the Dixon Era.

[QUOTE=Aahz;4910374]
Asfar as I know connection was anyway only mentioned in Nightwing: Year One, and that was published roughly 15-20 years after he became Nightwing.[/QUOTE]

It's still mentioned in New 52 and Rebirth, but only once each.

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4910453]I'm curious about how big DC is do you guys think there are villains outside the Batfam that would work? Characters that aren't used much?[/QUOTE]

In New 52 they're exchanging villains. They gave Superman villain Prankster to Nightwing, Nightwing villain Lady Vic to Batwing, and I don't remember what else.

Of course, Deathstroke has been traded with everyone long before that.

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4910453]I'm curious with how big DC is do you guys think there are villains outside the Batfam that would work? Characters that aren't used much?[/QUOTE]Hard to say, most DC characters other them Batman don't have that many good villains, that they could afford to loose one.

In the Batfamily there are a lot a lot off villains that fell into obscurity, and long running series like Tim Drakes Robin, Birds of Prey or Batwoman, that might not get continued anytime soon.

[QUOTE=Restingvoice;4910474]It's still mentioned in New 52 and Rebirth, but only once each.[/QUOTE]Ok the point I wanted to make was that this Kryptonian connection is not something that was really an important thing in the comics when he became Nightwing, so not mentioning it is not really downplaying something from back than.

[QUOTE=Aahz;4910464]They could also bring back [URL="https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Clock_II_(Earth-Two)"]The Clock[/URL] from his Golden Age Solos Stories and [URL="https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/David_Corby_(Earth-One)"]The Raven[/URL] from his Time at Hudson University, both were iirc the biggest villains from those eras.

[URL="https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Katherine_Riordan_(New_Earth)"]Hella[/URL] was also a petty cool villain from the Dixon Era.[/QUOTE]

Seconding The Raven and MAZE. We all here rave about Grayson, so the more secret organizations, the better.

The Court of Owls is frustrating. They have been forced into Dick's past and history so much now. They have completely tainted Haley's Circus and are such an easy go-to when writers need a quick story to get Dick to do something. In theory I don't dislike the Owls and they could be good, but how they have been used, especially in Dick's stories, is just really frustrating if they are meant to be this super important part to his character now.

The problem starts with Snyder's Court of Owls story in his Batman run. It's probably the most defining story of the New 52 era. It was a massive success, but it was very much a Bruce and Batman story throughout. Dick's role in Snyder's Owls story was very mitigated. Bruce is who the Owls cared about. Outside of getting punched in the face by Bruce Dick didn't really do much in Snyder's story. Maybe that was because Dick had his own ongoing book with Higgins writing Dick's view of the Owls story and they figured it would be better to have all of Dick's "important" parts be contained in it, but that is also what makes it frustrating. Since Higgins Owls story doesn't come close to being what Snyder's Owls story was, especially as it was written as a supporting book to Snyder's a bit. I thought it was average at best with characters like Raya or Saiko being completely forgettable, and when Higgins' story is what is supposed to redefine Dick's entire background and history it isn't strong enough to justify such imposing changes.

So we are left with this situation of the Owls being a core part of Dick's background now, but the defining Owls story by Snyder that is now an iconic Batman story Dick doesn't really do much in it outside of playing a small supporting role. You need a iconic or great Owls story with Dick at the center to really justify all these major changes to his history, but we never got that. Then after that Owls story there has been this weird shift with Dick now being this vital thing the Court feels like they NEED to have, but he was never that in Snyder's original story. So writers act like Dick is this super important person the Owls desperately want, but it doesn't really make sense going off the original story.

Plus I wouldn't be surprised if over time they continue to try and add more Owls elements into Dick's character. Such as the Nightwing name coming from the Owls, but I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually have it turn out the Owls are responsible for his parents' death too.

[QUOTE=Aahz;4910374]It is not like there was much of a relationship beyond Dick beeing in there in the Batman/Superman crossovers and a few team ups of him and Jimmy Olsen in World's finest in the Silverage.
But this relation was never as close or as important as his relation with the Titans or the rest of the Batfamily.[/QUOTE]

When Dick first used the Nightwing name the writers and creators at that time grew up on those old Batman, Robin and Superman stories. They were the original Trinity of characters, and there was also the Super Friends cartoon on at that time as well. So Robin/Dick interacting with Superman was still in the public consciousness and the Nightwing name fit better. Now that we are even more decades removed from it the old relationship or dynamic has faded even more probably to where it doesn't make sense to tie Dick's Nightwing name to Superman. It just feels like it will eventually get written out.

Can Haley's circus be saved? I mean this could have been the best way to get Dick to be his own hero while still being Nightwing. He traveling and fighting crime city to city. If the crime is to be involved in Dick's life how should it be Okay maybe some unused Villians are the best way. Has of now how many rogues does Dick have?

we had this conversation like 4 pages ago.

[QUOTE=Aahz;4910483]Hard to say, most DC characters other them Batman don't have that many good villains, that they could afford to loose one.

In the Batfamily there are a lot a lot off villains that fell into obscurity, and long running series like Tim Drakes Robin, Birds of Prey or Batwoman, that might not get continued anytime soon.[/QUOTE]Seriously, why is there no Robin solo book when both Tim and Damian have had one in the past? I hope last week's Robin anniversary special shows DC that there's a demand for it.

[QUOTE=Digifiend;4910726]Seriously, why is there no Robin solo book when both Tim and Damian have had one in the past? I hope last week's Robin anniversary special shows DC that there's a demand for it.[/QUOTE]

Does it? A Robin Anniversary Special with 5 characters with different fan bases is not the same as a Robin solo.
I don't see many Damian, Tim or Dick fans demanding a Robin solo with Steph.

[QUOTE=Aahz;4910374]It is not like there was much of a relationship beyond Dick beeing in there in the Batman/Superman crossovers and a few team ups of him and Jimmy Olsen in World's finest in the Silverage.
But this relation was never as close or as important as his relation with the Titans or the rest of the Batfamily.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Aahz;4910487]Ok the point I wanted to make was that this Kryptonian connection is not something that was really an important thing in the comics when he became Nightwing, so not mentioning it is not really downplaying something from back than.[/QUOTE]

There are a LOT of Batman and Superman team up stories throughout the Silver and Bronze ages, and Dick is in a lot of them though. Clark was pretty much an honorary uncle, and he is literally mentioned in the same sequence as Bruce and the Graysons as an influence in the very issue Dick adopts the Nightwing name. It was being acknowledged in the Titan comic it was taking place in.

They've definitely downplayed the connection since then to the point where it's no longer relevant, but that's not really to the benefit of the character IMO. Without the Superman connection and context, Nightwing as a name is pretty much meaningless. It's just a generic name you give to a Batman-lite vigilante. Even Wolfman (in his introduction in the Judas Contract trade) said he and Perez weren't wild about the name and used it as a placeholder and couldn't come up with anything else

[QUOTE=Ascended;4910272]Professor Pyg, Flamingo, and the Circus of Strange all started as Dick villains, even if he was wearing pointy ears, and should remain Dick villains.[/QUOTE]

They should be his villains. And I think I've brought it up before, but since the two of them started out as villains in the possible future of Damian!Batman, I think the other villains present there or mentioned should be re-worked as present day Nightwing villains: the Weasel, Max Roboto, Jackanpas, the Sphinx, Loveless, Candyman, etc are all cool designs or catchy names/concepts that could be elaborated upon.

So all of them plus some of Seeley's creations like Raptor, Dr. Levictus, the Gone Men and especially the limitless Fist of Cain would be a colorful and potentially cool rogue gallery who wouldn't be tied down to one location, which ideally Dick shouldn't be either.

Why is Nightwing nefted in the animated universe. Someone alway has to safe him. Kori, while stronger was training them
to fight. While Dick should have been the better option. Dick seems to one a losing streak.

[QUOTE=dietrich;4910758]Does it? [/QUOTE]I said I hoped it showed that, not that there was. It'll depend on reader response. People writing to them (even though there's no letters pages in DC comics nowadays), discussing it on social media, that sort of thing.

One of the many reasons I would like Dick to settle in Metropolis when he’s better...in addition to spending time with Clark and Lois...is to have Jimmy Olsen be his wingman during boys nights out...Jimmy has known his identity for years, and they always used to have fun back in the old Worlds Finest.

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4910918]Why is Nightwing nefted in the animated universe. Someone alway has to safe him. Kori, while stronger was training them
to fight. While Dick should have been the better option. Dick seems to one a losing streak.[/QUOTE]

Always has to be saved? Note: batman in this verse has been saved by others more times than Nightwing.
Note: Nightwing has saved other more times than he's needed some aid. But sure whatever.

Nightwing protects his own city. Star doesn't have that kind of responsibility so it makes sense her training the TT.

I mean he's in Multiple comics currently [some Good]
Murphy's got a Mini coming up
he's in 2 animated shows and he's in a Live action TV show not for an 80 year old.
He's doing compared to a lot of Dc Character's regardless of the complaints we express on here.

[QUOTE=Digifiend;4910972]I said I hoped it showed that, not that there was. It'll depend on reader response. People writing to them (even though there's no letters pages in DC comics nowadays), discussing it on social media, that sort of thing.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't mind a Robin solo but I'm not holding my breathe. I enjoyed Tim and Damian titles [shame Gleason didn't get to complete his RSOB series] Just got into Dick's solo Robin adventures in Star Spangled comics and thoroughly enjoying it. Golden age comics always make me laugh even when they are serious.

What? I didn't know he had solos that early - thought he didn't get them until the 1970s, where he starred in Batman Family and then Detective Comics, initially alongside Batgirl before both got solo features. Then in the 80s he had a run as Nightwing in Action Comics Weekly, but only got a book to himself in the 90s, after Tim's book had already launched.

[QUOTE=Digifiend;4911384]What? I didn't know he had solos that early - thought he didn't get them until the 1970s, where he starred in Batman Family and then Detective Comics, initially alongside Batgirl before both got solo features. Then in the 80s he had a run as Nightwing in Action Comics Weekly, but only got a book to himself in the 90s, after Tim's book had already launched.[/QUOTE]

Yes there was a Robin section from 1947-1953 in SSC hat made GA Robin appear in more issues than his Batman.

I don't want a Robin solo unless he's an independent Robin because I want there to be a few books as possible. Less problem with continuity and consistency. If he partners in Batman and lives with him, a regular appearance in Batman's book is enough. If he's a rebel, lives in a different apartment, and doesn't contact Batman often, then yeah, I want a solo, coz then it's different enough to warrant another purchase.

[QUOTE=Digifiend;4910726]Seriously, why is there no Robin solo book when both Tim and Damian have had one in the past? I hope last week's Robin anniversary special shows DC that there's a demand for it.[/QUOTE]I think one Problem is that Damian doesn't really work for the type of Robin stories they did with Dick and Tim, which were usually a mix of (more or less) street level crimefighting and high school/collage drama.

He fits really better into something like Super Sons or Teen titans where he can go on crazy adventures. I mean ROSB was also pretty over the top for a Robin book.

Does also fits with Nightwing. I kind of wondered would Damian fit better as Dick's sidekick?

I think Damian could absolutely work in traditional Robin stories. They just don't try

[QUOTE=Aahz;4911498]I think one Problem is that Damian doesn't really work for the type of Robin stories they did with Dick and Tim, which were usually a mix of (more or less) street level crimefighting and high school/collage drama.

He fits really better into something like Super Sons or Teen titans where he can go on crazy adventures. I mean ROSB was also pretty over the top for a Robin book.[/QUOTE]

Their are so many heroes running around Gotham thease days he doesn’t need to be their, he is one of batman lieutenants he comes by when needed

[QUOTE=Pohzee;4911748]I think Damian could absolutely work in traditional Robin stories. They just don't try[/QUOTE]

Yeah, it's not like he's demon spawn 100% all the time. It will be fun seeing him trying to blend into normal school and teenage life. He won't do it voluntarily, but if there's someone to protect, if he can be made to think it's part of a mission, he'll do it.

[QUOTE=Pohzee;4911748]I think Damian could absolutely work in traditional Robin stories. They just don't try[/QUOTE]

Is traditional Robin stories what we want with Damian though?