Dick Grayson: Robin / Nightwing Appreciation 2020

[QUOTE=Avi;5289780]I don't care that much for a great reason that has Dick stay in Blüdhaven. It will never be as strong as Bruce's reason to stay in Gotham anyway. Of course, they should still find a better one.

What damages the city more in my eyes is that it is right next to Gotham. That made sense to Dixon, especially because he had creative control over most of the Bats, but it doesn't really make sense when trying to establish Dick as an A-lister.

Still, if Taylor keeps some of the concepts Seeley and Humphries introduced and maybe even brings some stories/concepts back from the old Blüdhaven the city could feel pretty alive.

I wonder how much the whole "one timeline" direction will affect Nightwing. Especially in regards to the villains. I would be thrilled if the new version of Blockbuster stayed. The old version's story was told, and I didn't enjoy that Jurgens seemingly brought pre-N52 Blockbuster back in the last Annual. I hope that the Shrike appearing in Suicide Squad will be connected to Dick in some way. NW #68 showed him as one of Dick's villains but it wouldn't be the first time that such details are being ignored.[/QUOTE]

The one timeline is there to establish in canon what Scott Snyder wanted and what Jim Lee announced, so that writers can pull any material from any of their rich history and have it be canon while at the same time not thinking too much about how it's canon, so they can just focus on the character and the story they want to tell in the present.

That's usually a pick and choose what you like, and can change from writer to writer. Let's say the Suicide Squad writer doesn't give any indication that Shrike remembers Nightwing, the moment Williamson uses him in Nightwing, he can establish that he's an old foe... if the story isn't about them meeting for the first time but they remember they used to be enemies. That over complicates things though.

[QUOTE=WonderNight;5289809]Look it doesn't matter what city dick's in because it doesn't address the core issues, that being nighwing as batman-lite/diet batman and a reduntant bat! As long as nightwing remains those thing's nothing will change for him. He'll never be A-list or invested in. Dick's problem is that nighwings core concept is Jr batman!

Nighwing needs a concept reboot. The reason nightwing even has a city is to be like batman. But the thing is the dcu already has batman and on top of that nightwing under the same franchise. You don't have your spinoff character be a lesser version of the main character. Tom Taylors run will end up going nowhere in the longer run just like dixons because the core concept of Jr batman doesn't work. Here's the fix.

Core Batman: City/Steet level/Detective.

Core Nightwing: Globtrotting/Meta humans/Espionage.

There. Now no more batman-lite, diet batman, adult robin. Nighwing is his own thing from batman! Now he can grow.[/QUOTE]

Nightwing having a city will allow him to follow the successful tv model that’s been in place. This new run Taylor got going is. An outline for a future spin-off from titans. The pieces are already in place

[QUOTE=Rac7d*;5289958]Nightwing having a city will allow him to follow the successful tv model that’s been in place. This new run Taylor got going is. An outline for a future spin-off from titans. The pieces are already in place[/QUOTE] Nighwing ain't gettin no spin-off. They'll go with redhood, batgirl or robin first. But whatever nightwing's a dead end Dick! Dick would be better off going to robin or agent 37. Nightwings a waste of time.

I mean he can live in Bludhaven and travel around or just live in the T tower. This is why you can easily just make Dick a P.I. Not doesn’t have to be agent 37 just be hired or travel around for cases. I mean heck you can have him go back to Haley’s Circus to travel around. He can use his background in entertainment to research others. He doesn’t have to be in Bludhaven. He can still live there. But the simple fact is you don’t need him in Batfam or Titans to for him to travel on his own. Heck the people who help him can easily be the people who saved from court of owls

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5290058]I mean he can live in Bludhaven and travel around or just live in the T tower. This is why you can easily just make Dick a P.I. Not doesn’t have to be agent 37 just be hired or travel around for cases. I mean heck you can have him go back to Haley’s Circus to travel around. He can use his background in entertainment to research others. He doesn’t have to be in Bludhaven. He can still live there. But the simple fact is you don’t need him in Batfam or Titans to for him to travel on his own. Heck the people who help him can easily be the people who saved from court of owls[/QUOTE]

Its not about a story arc its about the fundamental concepts of Nightwing! What's Nightwings selling point? His "gimmick" his "hook"? Right now its fromer robin, batman lite or im dick grayson. That's not gonna got the general public DC WB or AT&T invested! Only already comics dick grayson fans.

DC WB and AT&T needs to be able to look at nightwing and say this is selling point. SomeThing on a fundamental level that different from the character he spinoff from. Investing in Nightwing running around a city while you have batman in gotham is highy redundant. You go to pitch nightwing to AT&T and give them two options.

First: Adult robin\Batman-lite.

Second: Batman meets Bond/Mission Impossible, in the DCU sandbox.

Let be real, we all know which one that'd go with. one of those could be huge for DC & AT&T and we know which one.

I'm saying if we want him to travel why not get Haley's Circus involved? He can easily make that his base.

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5290256]I'm saying if we want him to travel why not get Haley's Circus involved? He can easily make that his base.[/QUOTE]

Becuase joker blew it up
And circuses are dead

[QUOTE=Digifiend;5288022]
Fair point. ARGUS in Arrow and the DEO in Supergirl do seem to do pretty much the same thing. I guess they overlap in the comics too?[/QUOTE]

Them and a good dozen or more other agencies, yes.

There's a few minor differences between them all, of course, but generally they're all either military branches designed to deal with superhumans or intelligence agencies designed to deal with superhumans. In the broad strokes, groups like the DEO (or the DMA, or the.....) operate like the FBI while groups like Argus (and the Human Defense Corps, and the....) operate like branches of the military.

The entire spy corner of the DCU has been a poorly defined mess since forever and one of the first things Bendis agreed to do was provide some much-needed consistency, but all he got to do was his opening salvo with Leviathan before DC was thrown into chaos, so while all those redundant groups are gone, the spy corner is still an ill-defined mess. Rumor is Bendis will be doing his next Leviathan story after all, so maybe this will get fixed after all. Eventually.

[QUOTE=WonderNight;5290030]Nighwing ain't gettin no spin-off. They'll go with redhood, batgirl or robin first. But whatever nightwing's a dead end Dick! Dick would be better off going to robin or agent 37. Nightwings a waste of time.[/QUOTE]

Not that I'm saying there *won't* be a Red Hood or Batgirl spinoff, but the only people who thought Nightwing didn't have any potential were fired from DC this past summer (and good riddance). From what I've heard Dick quickly became the unofficial mascot of the DCU app, with his face plastered on everything, and his transition to Nightwing was well received (I don't have the app and have never watched the shows so I have no personal opinion on it). When it comes to larger media, the people involved seem to recognize Dick's value far more than the fools who've been screwing up the comics in recent years.

Anyone who thinks Nightwing isn't viable is simply thinking too small. Dude has a larger media profile that goes back further than most A-listers, and even as Nightwing has featured prominently in larger media for decades.

Why would Titans spin off Nightwing when he’s pretty much the lead of the show.

[QUOTE=Godlike13;5290404]Why would Titans spin off Nightwing when he’s pretty much the lead of the show.[/QUOTE]

I'd think it more likely that Titans is cancelled and Dick moves into a show of his own. From the clips I've seen (which isn't much to go on) Titans isn't exactly high quality television, and DC wouldn't lose much (if anything) by dropping the characters and team setting and just focusing on Dick. He seems to be the best part of it anyway.

I'm not saying it'll happen or anything, and I got no real dog in this fight since I don't watch the show anyway, but solo characters have been spun out of ensemble shows before. I doubt the odds are very good but it doesn't seem *impossible* either.

They seem happy with Titans so far. I think they even renewed it for a 4th season already. Spin offs happens sure, but like the show or not to spin off Dick would cut the legs out from under the show.

They do seem satisfied with its performance (last I knew). I think it was even one of the top streaming shows it's first season? I'm not saying it's a failure, simply that the clips I've seen haven't impressed me personally.

And I'm not saying they'll cut the legs off the show, I'm saying it's not impossible that when it ends (for whatever reason it ends) they might move Dick to a show of his own (a continuation or reboot or whatever). He's essentially the star you say? Kinda proves that the people behind the camera recognize his value.

I'm just disagreeing with the notion that nobody would even *consider* using him as a solo act. That's some Dan Didio thinking, but Didio is gone folks, and he can't hurt us anymore.

Ngl I could go with Titans being cancelled and NW getting his own series. I’m sure they could invest the CGI money towards even more enhanced scenes and giving the show better quality in terms of writing and filming

[QUOTE=Godlike13;5290404]Why would Titans spin off Nightwing when he’s pretty much the lead of the show.[/QUOTE]

Becuase Tim is coming

Which makes the Teen Titans can finally come together with beast boy and raven. I am curious to see how Barbra Gordon reoccurring appearance next season goes. I find it incredible that we will have comics that may mirror something happening in a larger media. The way manga does with anime

Why can't Dick just go off on his own no group or anything. We already have so many groups already. Dick can easily just do his own thing. If he finds people along away than yea they can just be one of the people who join his supporting cast but with how Dc is there shouldn't be any new groups

Circuses aren’t completely die just traveling ones. At least in the USA. If anything many people love acrobats. So Dick can easily still just be a in something like magic acts or working somewhere that can make him travel. I knew he can work in casinos or something else that can help him travel.

Plus even if Joker blew it up doesn’t mean it can’t be retcon. Dc isn’t one right now for continuity

The Titans show is terrible, but it gets good ratings because of the name brand I guess. So a spinoff feels unlikely for Dick if he is still stuck leading the show.

I thought the series should have just been a Nightwing series from the start, but I don't think Dick will be the one with a spinoff if that ever happens. Red Hood is probably the best bet as he is kind of the breakout character on the show that has generated the most attention. If they do any kind of spinoff it would probably be set in Gotham too as that is what they are setting up this season with moving the team there, and Bruce in this universe is kind of old. The actor playing him is 60. So if on the small chance they give Dick a spinoff it would be him in Gotham taking over for Bruce probably.


Also on a random note I'm not a big fan of the bird head on Nightwing' costume in the comics I think. Every time I see it I keep thinking it is an art error, lol.

[QUOTE=Rac7d*;5290303]
And circuses are dead[/QUOTE]Really? Never heard of Cirque du Soleil?

[QUOTE=Digifiend;5293030]Really?

Never heard of Cirque du Soleil?[/QUOTE]

Does Cirque Du Soleli travel?

[QUOTE=Badou;5292953]The Titans show is terrible, but it gets good ratings because of the name brand I guess. So a spinoff feels unlikely for Dick if he is still stuck leading the show.[/QUOTE]

It definitely won't happen while Titans is still on the air. And it likely won't happen after it's over either, but there's a lot of solid business reasons, as well as creative ones, to give it serious consideration.

And yknow, I'm not ready to give up on my optimism yet. We haven't really seen how the new DC will prioritize or how it'll interact with the larger media efforts. But things already look way better than they did six months ago, so who knows? I wouldn't bet money on it but maybe Dick will actually get a little quality attention. Crazier things have happened.

Just pointing it out; right now we know Dick is getting a solo title in March with a high-end writer. Aquaman, Supergirl, Shazam, Red Hood, Batgirl (any of them), and a whole host of other well known characters thus far have nothing.

[QUOTE]Also on a random note I'm not a big fan of the bird head on Nightwing' costume in the comics I think. Every time I see it I keep thinking it is an art error, lol.[/QUOTE]

I support the bird emblem purely for marketing purposes, but I think I agree; the chevron seems a stronger design choice. And I tend to dislike the chevron-with-a-bird-head versions they sometimes do.

I really like Tom Taylor writing in general, but I'm not so sure he is high-end writer.

His elseworld comics where he use all DC Universe sell a lot. However, sales of Suicide Squad's floppies were pretty low.


I agree that DC seems to have more expectatives for Nightwing than other characters. Although I think they put Barbara in Nightwing comic (and it seems to be the only place where she is Batgirl), because they really hope this will increase sales.

I think they should have picked one or the other. They should punch her to be oracle not Batgirl. They can just have her put the Oracle logo as a mask. And keep the Batgirl costume similar. I wouldn't keep the Bat logo design just the costume.

I'm curious why they seem to have more faith in Nightwing than Babs and Nightwing. Both are great characters.

[QUOTE=Konja7;5293805]I really like Tom Taylor writing in general, but I'm not so sure he is high-end writer.

His elseworld comics where he use all DC Universe sell a lot. However, sales of Suicide Squad's floppies were pretty low.

I agree that DC seems to have more expectatives for Nightwing than other characters. Although I think they put Barbara in Nightwing comic (and it seems to be the only place where she is Batgirl), because they really hope this will increase sales.[/QUOTE]

Nightwing sells pretty well by himself when he isn't stuck as Ric Grayson. And the hype surrounding the announcement of this creative team was so good that he was even trending on Twitter. Sales won't be a issue. Even if it only sells a lot in the first issue, it'll probably sustain around 25 to 30 k regularly like he was doing before the Ric mess.

The only time his sales started to decline above 18k was with the Ric Grayson\Dan Jurgens combo and that was completely DC's fault.

[QUOTE=Drako;5293856]Nightwing sells pretty well by himself when he isn't stuck as Ric Grayson. And the hype surrounding the announcement of this creative team was so good that he was even trending on Twitter. Sales won't be a issue. Even if it only sells a lot in the first issue, it'll probably sustain around 25 to 30 k regularly like he was doing before the Ric mess.

The only time his sales started to decline above 18k was with the Ric Grayson\Dan Jurgens combo and that was completely DC's fault.[/QUOTE]

Honestly, even without Ric mess, I'm not totally sure Nightwing sales wouldn't fall under 20K for this time. The comic market was pretty horrible at this time.

That said, Nightwing (even with the Ric mess) is a better seller than Batgirl comic. When Batgirl sold better than Nightwing, it usually was due to popular variant covers for Batgirl.

Ric was done in an attempt to buck that trend. It wouldn't have taken much to keep it above 20k, but instead they came up Ric sending its through its floor and recruited sub 20k creators. And being a better seller then a book who's character was mostly ignored and pushed to side, receiving very little creator support, isn't a good benchmark. All it took was a new costume for Batgirl to sell better than Nightwing for a decent while. Now im excited about the creative team, but they are starting at the bottom. The numbers aren't going to boom up on the title. They'll probably get a bounce for a time, but its not gonna be crazy. It sucks they didn't do a relaunch to put this creative team in a better position, it also sucks they let Jurgens deflate any help his return might have had, but what can you do. We can only hope DC curbs their expectations and affords them the same leeway they frustratingly did Ric's creators.

[QUOTE=Godlike13;5293963]Ric was done in an attempt to buck that trend. It wouldn't have taken much to keep it above 20k, but instead they came up Ric sending its through its floor and recruited sub 20k creators. And being a better seller then a book who's character was mostly ignored and pushed to side, receiving very little creator support, isn't a good benchmark. All it took was a new costume for Batgirl to sell better than Nightwing for a decent while. Now im excited about the creative team, but they are starting at the bottom. The numbers aren't going to boom up on the title. They'll probably get a bounce for a time, but its not gonna be crazy. It sucks they didn't do a relaunch to put this creative team in a better position, it also sucks they let Jurgens deflate any help his return might have had, but what can you do. We can only hope DC curbs their expectations and affords them the same leeway they frustratingly did Ric's creators.[/QUOTE]

I don't think the change of Batgirl suit was the only reason why Batgirl sold better than Nightwing at the time.

The variant cover of Joshua Middleton seems to be another reason (the sales of Batgirl fall when it doesn't have that variant cover).

You guys think that Nightwing can outsell Batman?

No. DC wouldn’t let that happen, and if it did it would be seen as a failure in managing Batman.

Which is why I wish Nightwing and The Titans had their own editor. I know that one reason why they don't is he has one book and so do they but that can easily be fix. Like Dick Grayson having a teamup comic with different heroes and a comic with Wally. The Titans also could get spinoffs. Very easy. Dick can easily be a competitor.

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5294031]Which is why I wish Nightwing and The Titans had their own editor. I know that one reason why they don't is he has one book and so do they but that can easily be fix. Like Dick Grayson having a teamup comic with different heroes and a comic with Wally. The Titans also could get spinoffs. Very easy. Dick can easily be a competitor.[/QUOTE]The younger characters can easily have three team books: Titans, Teen Titans and Young Justice. The problem is solo books. Only Dick has one. Though I don't see why Wally can't have one too.

Which office is Titans usually in? Superman's? I know YJ was Superman's because Bendis was the writer of both and all of the original Wonder Comics had a Superman appearance in some form.

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5294016]You guys think that Nightwing can outsell Batman?[/QUOTE]

Maybe for one special issue, but there is no solo hero can outsell Batman for a long period of time.

[QUOTE=Tom Taylor] Happy Holidays, @DCComics and Nightwing fans!
@Bruno_Redondo_F, @fxstudiocolor, @jesswchen and I will see you in 2021!
@thedcnation.[/QUOTE]

[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EqFsu0sUUAMzQxJ?format=jpg&name=medium[/IMG]

[url]https://twitter.com/TomTaylorMade/status/1342473720514846721/photo/1[/url]

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5294031]Which is why I wish Nightwing and The Titans had their own editor. I know that one reason why they don't is he has one book and so do they but that can easily be fix. Like Dick Grayson having a teamup comic with different heroes and a comic with Wally. The Titans also could get spinoffs. Very easy. Dick can easily be a competitor.[/QUOTE]With the current sales numbers of Nightwing and Titans (or at least the ones we now from before the pandemic) it is unlikely, that any spinoff could last as an ongoing.
They can do occasional one shots or minis, but ongoing are not really an viable option.

True. I just think maybe it would do some Good expand Nightwing out. Okay so the Judge in Nightwing is a supernatural being corrected? Maybe Dick should have a few more supernatural enemies? I think it would be cool if a fracture part of the court of owls was more of a cult that wanted to live forever

It seems Future State: Nightwing issues will be included in Future State: Next Batman trade.

[IMG]https://i.redd.it/r1tede04ed761.jpg[/IMG]

Wait isn't there a Black Label happening?

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5294016]You guys think that Nightwing can outsell Batman?[/QUOTE]

No way. I mean, at "some point in the future" you never know what might be big. Strictly speaking nothing's impossible. You go back in time far enough and the highest selling book is X-Men, or Superman, or Captain Marvel (Shazam), or FF, or whatever, and there have been stretches of time when Batman didn't sell very well. So at "some point in the future" maybe Batman's run as the top hero ends and through some impossible-to-predict contrivance Nightwing has taken his place in the sales rankings.

But no, realistically speaking that's not gonna happen.

And a merry christmas to all of you. Or at least to those of you who celebrate the holiday. To the rest of you, same sentiment but applied to your particular traditions! :D

I think Future State Robin Eternal's preview just spoiled how FS Nightwing ends.
[url]https://aiptcomics.com/2020/12/25/dc-preview-future-state-robin-eternal-1/[/url]
[spoil]Dick is "ranting and raving in Arkham". WTF?[/spoil]

Arkham is abandoned and becomes his base in FS.

Apparently,
[spoil]Nightwing was placed in Arkham Asylum on "A-Day" but escaped, is leading a Resistance against the Magistrate. TT also takes place after his series so.[/spoil]

Happy holidays Everyone

Interesting. Doesn’t NW technically have a base? Like his home or all around Bludhaven. What would a good base for him be. I wonder where Babs is in Nightwing's FS. Many think he somehow lead the killing of the TT because he became Deathstroke