Dick Grayson: Robin / Nightwing Appreciation 2020

Nightwing should be a spy — Agent 37 but in costume and as Nightwing — for Batman Inc, which he runs with Wayne funding but not direct oversight by Bruce. There are some secrets that Nightwing keeps even from Batman.

Tonally, Nightwing should not be Batman-lite. Setting-wise, he should not be tied to a Gotham-lite/dark.

He should be more like Booster Gold or Harley Quinn. I was thinking at first this might be too sci-fi for him but I think it fits really well, actually — Nightwing should have some kind of spy-tech that allows him to teleport. Teleporting is a weirder thing than most Batman adventures, so it sets Nightwing apart, and it allows him to be flexible and acroabtic — leaping from one place to another through portal/teleportation tech.

It's not a motherbox, or Skeets, but something a bit more low-tech hi-tech, like a portable watch version of the JLA teleporter. The teleporter should be a bit slow and janky, frequently breaks, as does a lot of his equipment, which serves both to up the stakes and give Nightwing comical problems. "Of course I get the hand-me-down tech." Superman and The Flash can still arrive at a situation faster than Nightwing can teleport, but he'd be able to show up faster than the Bat-plane.

But the whole point was not be funded by Bruce so that can be an issue. It depends on how much influence Bruce has.The more I think about it. Didn't Nightwing have a career in Harley Cirus? Why not DIck make his own spy or rather something similar to that? THan again are the titans kind of like?

[QUOTE=Ascended;4852579]I'm confused. Does it isolate him and keep him out of the DCU or not? :D

I don't get you and your hate for that city man. :p I feel like you're blaming a symptom for a cause. I mean, I get it, Bludhaven has suffered from the same lack of consistency and quality that has plagued Dick for years now. It has not been a well developed setting and Dick being the protector of a single city isn't exactly a novel concept. But it's not the problem. Dick's stories were no better when he was in Chicago were they? And after Infinite Crisis I think it might've been New York for a while right? Stories weren't better then either, as I recall. Dick was in Gotham for the New52, and the stories didn't improve because of it.

I mean, it's cool. I can't blame ya. I just don't get it.[/QUOTE]

You misunderstood my post. I'll explain it a bit more. Basically I was implying that when he is in Bludhaven because it holds no real value to the character, since all his more important connections and relationships are outside of Bludhaven, he gets cut off from things readers actually want to see more of, but then if Bludhaven was actually this good thing for the character it could serve as a place to protect him from bad stories he is dragged into outside of it if he is stuck in Bludhaven. Like how Batman has his Gotham stories that are mostly separate from his non Gotham stories where you don't have to worry about what is going on in the JL, but Bludhaven isn't a strong enough setting to protect Dick from that. He gets dragged back into Gotham if they need to throw him under the bus for something. So even after decades of stories it isn't like Bludhaven is any better than most of these other one off settings Dick has had.

And none of those other settings were that long. I think the NYC run was the longest at maybe under 30 issues? So it isn't like he has a large sample size in other settings as Nigthwing to really see how it goes. I do know that after 150+ issues in Bludhaven we are still having the same conversations about it that we've had for years or decades. Maybe after another 5 or 10 years of forgettable Bludhaven stories more people will start flipping to my side. ;)

One thing I wonder. What do you guys think about the fact Dick is basically the go-to guy for all the Batfam to rant about? He is literally the glue. Bruce even goes to him at times. For the most part Dick understands Bruce has found out secrets. I honestly most has Dick even broke down? HE literally has the wait of the whole family at times.

[QUOTE=Badou;4852640]You are correct in what Bludhaven was created to be. It was meant to serve as setting for traditional hero stories and Dixon did a basic and fine job for a character that was was coming out of an awful Titans series and had never been a solo character before. There was nothing to compare it to, but we are 25 years removed from that. Many other creators have come in and written Bludhaven stories and none have been able to produce anything where it feels integral to the character. How many more writers have to come in and fail to do anything substantial before we are ready to move on and say that maybe Bludhaven is an issue and not the lack of effort by the creators?

It feels like a sunk cost fallacy to me. Readers have this attachment to this city because of the previous 150 issues and think that if you just change this, add that, and invest even more time there it will suddenly work, but it never will. You have all those major problems I mentioned previously, but this is where Bludhaven becomes not just a symptom but a negative asset or a liability to the character. Bludhaven isn't a setting that inspires creators to want to write there. No writer is excited to dip their toes into Bludhaven and explore it. It becomes an actual deterrent from attracting writers to the character if Dick is stuck and isolated in a setting that they don't have an interest in. That is a big problem. Maybe that is why we get such uninspired stories there.

I think we have already reached that point. You had Seeley who if given the choice would not have wanted to set his Nightwing run in Bludhaven, but he was forced to if he wanted to write Nightwing and some look at his run as the best Bludhaven run Nightwing had. Think about how much better his run could have been if he was allowed to use a setting that he wanted?

As Nightwing Dick's never had a setting other than Bludhaven for more than 20 something issues, right? So it isn't like they planted their flag anywhere else to really test to see if Bludhaven is a problem or not. I mean we both enjoyed the Spyral run and the spy setting. Had they explored that more even with Dick going back to Nightwing maybe that could have built into something interesting. Something where creators, maybe even prominent creators, feel like they want to sink their teeth into that world and write stories there, but I don't see Bludhaven ever being that.[/QUOTE]

Only 3 writers have had substantial runs with Bludhaven prior to the start of Ric. Your making it the focal point of a problem it’s not responsible for. You gonna seriously sit here a blame Bludhaven for creators like Lobdell and Jurgan’s awful garbage. The problem is beyond a setting. Be New York, Gotham, Chicago, or Bludhaven. Bludhaven is a trap perpetuated by a bigger issue.

And don’t think anyone is saying keep Dick in Bludhaven at this point. That’s not the point here. But its not Bludhaven with its foot on his head. Supplying him with the likes of Lobdell and Jurgan’s to fill in the art with boring ideas and tired executions is attempt to keep Nightwing all to itself. It’s just a trap city that makes it easy for DC to poop out factory like stories with whatever various creators they are willing to put on it.

[QUOTE=Godlike13;4852672]Only 3 writers have had substantial runs with Bludhaven prior to the start of Ric. Your making it the focal point of a problem it’s not responsible for. You gonna seriously sit here a blame Bludhaven for creators like Lobdell and Jurgan’s awful garbage. The problem is beyond a setting. Be New York, Gotham, Chicago, or Bludhaven. Bludhaven is a trap perpetuated by a bigger issue.

And don’t think anyone is saying keep Dick in Bludhaven at this point. That’s not the point here. But its not Bludhaven with its foot on his throat. Supplying him with the likes of Lobdell and Jurgan’s to fill in the art with boring ideas and tired executions is attemptnto keep Nightwing all to itself. It’s just a trap city that makes it easy for DC to poop out factory like stories with whatever various creators they will afford to put on it.[/QUOTE]

My dislike of Bludhaven extends well beyond Ric though. I was making the same arguments before Ric was even a thing. About how I felt the city did not inspire creators to want to write there and bred poor creativity. That it adds negative value to trying to get writers interested in Nightwing's character and brand. So sure, those other settings and cities have the same issues Bludhaven does, and I am sick of the "city protector" derivative stories they bring about, but they don't have the same level of negative baggage with them at least.

I just do not think Bludhaven is blameless. It isn't THE reason for Nightwing's problems, but it is a reason. I think the Lobdell and Jurgens stories are worse off for having to be set there. I just don't think writers are interested in the city and if they have to write there they will change it to something they are more interested in, which speaks to fundamental issues with it too and if writers have to constantly change it to be interested in it maybe it is time to move on.

I mean after Final Crisis it isn't like creators were rushing to rebuild Bludhaven and write there again, right? It felt like they were all fine with moving on and trying something else because they weren't that inspired by the setting anymore. I mean Bludhaven got nuked and Dick kind of got happier in Tomasi's run from what I remember, lol.

[QUOTE=Badou;4852713]I mean after Final Crisis it isn't like creators were rushing to rebuild Bludhaven and write there again, right? It felt like they were all fine with moving on and trying something else because they weren't that inspired by the setting anymore. I mean Bludhaven got nuked and Dick kind of got happier in Tomasi's run from what I remember, lol.[/QUOTE]There wasn't really much of point in rebuilding it, since they killed almost Dick's entire Supporting cast (the only survivers were afaik Amy Rohrbach and Bridget Clancy) and his main villain, before they nuked it.

Well Dick was suppose to die in Infinite Crisis too. Dick moved on to probably one of the worst Nightwing story prior to Ric, followed by an awful Wolfman run designed to prelude his upcoming Vigilante run. Tomasi’s run I think gets more credit because of how turds and directionless the book was in the time prior.

After they blew up Bludhaven I think there was a mini series about it, of course with no sign of Nightwing cause again he was going to die, leading to an Uncle Sam series I believe. After that there was Countdown, I want to say something with Omac, and then of course it was Darkseids base in FC. Which then Dick became Batman, and that was about it with Bludhaven. Notice how even when they brought the greater DC into Bludhaven, Dick was always missing for it.

[QUOTE=Godlike13;4852792]Well Dick was suppose to die in Infinite Crisis too. Dick moved on to probably one of the worst Nightwing stories prior to Ric, followed by an awful Wolfman run designed to prelude his upcoming Vigilante run. [/QUOTE]Allready pre Infinite Crisis his series had been pretty bad, basically everything since the Story arc where Block Buster died run was crap untill Thomasi took over, and some of it was imo far worse then Ric.

[QUOTE=Godlike13;4852792]Well Dick was suppose to die in Infinite Crisis too. Dick moved on to probably one of the worst Nightwing story prior to Ric, followed by an awful Wolfman run designed to prelude his upcoming Vigilante run. Tomasi’s run I think gets more credit because of how turds and directionless the book was in the time prior.

After they blew up Bludhaven I think there was a mini series about it, of course with no sign of Nightwing cause again he was going to die, leading to an Uncle Sam series I believe. After that there was Countdown, I want to say something with Omac, and then of course it was Darkseids base in FC. Which then Dick became Batman, and that was about it with Bludhaven. Notice how even when they brought the greater DC into Bludhaven, Dick was always missing for it.[/QUOTE]

Ah yes, I was wondering about that earlier, why Nightwing didn't revisit Bludhaven, but I forgot that Nightwing was expected to die.

I don't remember who the author was but they had to scramble to fulfill both the Jason Nightwing plan Didio had AND the fact that Dick's still alive, and the result was Tentacle Jason.

If we were going to make a Dick Grayson appreciation thread Bingo, "Badou claims that Bludhaven is irredeemable" would definitely be on it.

It has been a problem. I think that Chuck Dixon's conception of it was horrible, tbh. It was like a Hell's Kitchen knockoff and a Gotham knockoff all at the same time. Thing is, when Dixon was writing the character, I'm not sure that Dick had been written as nearly as quippy as he has been in the last 10 years. I honestly thing that Morrison's Run with Dick as the Batman who smiles and laughs has had as much bigger impact on the character than most of us realize.

But back to my point, you had Dixon write the place as a knockoff of two other books, and no one else really cared to write the place I think. The problem is when you force writers to do stuff they have no excitement about. Dick living in Bludaven isn't the problem, but editorial forcing Seely to write stories in the city was.

[QUOTE=Badou;4852661]You misunderstood my post. I'll explain it a bit more[/QUOTE]

Thanks for clarifying.

But it's not the city that matters. You're right that being in Bludhaven doesn't generate the kind of "protection" you mention, but when DC treats Dick like he's nothing more than a sidekick who happens to have his own book, the setting wouldn't matter. Like this whole Ric thing. If Dick had been living in another city, King still would've derailed the Nightwing writer's plans and had him shot in the head. The problem is how DC views Dick, and until that changes his setting doesn't matter, he'll still get pulled into stupid crap from the Bat office and thrown under buses.

Now, if the argument is that being the protector of a city is limiting Dick and forcing him into a standard superhero role he doesn't really fit, I completely agree. But in the end, these are all just symptoms of how DC handles the character. Didio would have wanted Dick dead in 06 whether he lived in Bludhaven or New York or Jump City or Metropolis. Dick would have continued getting low quality creators regardless. He would've been forced into that Bat-lite mold regardless.

If DC started treating Nightwing like a solo IP instead of a sidekick, the problems that have plagued the character end. Moving Dick to a different city will make no difference.

And hell, I just re-read some of Seeley's run, and within two trades we had solid appearances by Superman, Wally West, and Damian. The good parts of Dick's history and relationships were present, the stories themselves were solid, and Dick was living in Bludhaven. And if Dick had been living in NYC, they still would've been solid. :p Our issue is DC's view of the character and the shape they force him into. The setting isn't the problem, DC is.

What if Bludhaven was more like a growing movie/entertainment place. It fits his entertainment background

If it's well done and well conceived I don't really care what the specifics are. If it feels like Nightwing and not Bat-lite, if it's fun and the craft is quality, I'm happy.

If I want to see my own specific ideas brought to the page then I better change careers and start chasing a job at DC. :p

Right, though right now they need to stop trying to force feed readers something they clearly do not want.

How so? Like the Ric story? How it's literally brought his sales down

[QUOTE=Godlike13;4853910]Right, though right now they need to stop trying to force feed readers something they clearly do not want.[/QUOTE]

But it's so smart and good and novel! If only readers were smart enough to see how amazing it is! History will validate DC and applaud what they're doing for the masterpiece it is!

......

that's sarcasm. Just in case it didn't translate well through text. :p

[QUOTE=Ascended;4854318]But it's so smart and good and novel! If only readers were smart enough to see how amazing it is! History will validate DC and applaud what they're doing for the masterpiece it is!

......

that's sarcasm. Just in case it didn't translate well through text. :p[/QUOTE]

I love this post, great job. *THUMPS WAY UP* :cool:

What has been your 10 ten best moments in the comment with Dick? Also does Jim Lee have any negative feelings about Nightwing?

[URL="https://www.bleedingcool.com/2020/02/24/nightwing-seeks-answers-on-didios-departure-in-nightwing-70-improbable-previews/"]Bleeding Cool's Improbable Preview[/URL] has Nightwing trying to work out who fired Dan Didio.

[IMG]https://www.bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/nightwingdidio1.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://www.bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/nightwingdidio2.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://www.bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/nightwingdidio3.jpg[/IMG]

I like this fake preview much more than the original.

Marcus To

[ATTACH=CONFIG]93674[/ATTACH]

[QUOTE=kjn;4854505][URL="https://www.bleedingcool.com/2020/02/24/nightwing-seeks-answers-on-didios-departure-in-nightwing-70-improbable-previews/"]Bleeding Cool's Improbable Preview[/URL] has Nightwing trying to work out who fired Dan Didio.

[IMG]https://www.bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/nightwingdidio1.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://www.bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/nightwingdidio2.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://www.bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/nightwingdidio3.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
I... I kind of want to read more?

LoL, that’s not even Dick. The current Nightwing team should be proud how effective their work has been.

[QUOTE=Godlike13;4855857]LoL, that’s not even Dick. The current Nightwing team should be proud how effective their work has been.[/QUOTE]

True. The gun gave it away.

[QUOTE=Vordan;4855734]I... I kind of want to read more?[/QUOTE]

I know right?

And yes, obviously that's not actually Dick. But in *this* satire it is, and he's chasing down the person who took down Didio and robbed Dick of revenge. And that's a story I kinda want more of.

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4854334]What has been your 10 ten best moments in the comment with Dick? Also does Jim Lee have any negative feelings about Nightwing?[/QUOTE]

Sorry, not following. 10 best moments in the comments? You mean here on CBR? Well Celgress just gave me a thumbs up, so that's cool. :D

If you mean favorite Dick Grayson moments? I dunno what my top ten are. At least half of them probably happen in larger media though.

I've never watched the show but "F*ck Batman" is pretty great. Someone had to say it, it's needed to be said for a while now, and I'm glad it was Dick who got to. I don't know what the context was or anything, like I said, never saw the show. It just makes me happy to hear Dick say it.

And from that Batman/Harley cartoon all of you wrongly dislike, "What, like you never made out with a super villain?" That was a good line, I think that says a good bit about both of these characters actually, and their dynamic.

Basically every second of screen time in Young Justice.

[QUOTE=kjn;4854505][URL="https://www.bleedingcool.com/2020/02/24/nightwing-seeks-answers-on-didios-departure-in-nightwing-70-improbable-previews/"]Bleeding Cool's Improbable Preview[/URL] has Nightwing trying to work out who fired Dan Didio.

[IMG]https://www.bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/nightwingdidio1.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://www.bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/nightwingdidio2.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://www.bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/nightwingdidio3.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Lol That Liefield dig!

Is the Nightwing team going to change once Ric is over?

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4856038]Is the Nightwing team going to change once Ric is over?[/QUOTE]

At the start of the new 52 joker showed up killed his love intrest and blew up his circus and supporting cast, I am expecting a redo here

[QUOTE=Ascended;4855940]I know right?

And yes, obviously that's not actually Dick. But in *this* satire it is, and he's chasing down the person who took down Didio and robbed Dick of revenge. And that's a story I kinda want more of.[/QUOTE]

Even if this is satire, my point is people can’t even tell the difference between the old Nightwing and their new Nightwing. As this satire inadvertently demonstrates. Illustrating what an ineffective waste of time those on it last two years of work has been. It’d be funny if it wasn’t sad.

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4856038]Is the Nightwing team going to change once Ric is over?[/QUOTE]

They usually change for a relaunch or reboot or if someone pitch a better idea, so I expect it will change if the Generation series that's launching the new DC timeline is finished and if... IF they relaunch all titles with a new number #1

Otherwise, the chance is lower

[QUOTE=Rac7d*;4856155]At the start of the new 52 joker showed up killed his love intrest and blew up his circus and supporting cast, I am expecting a redo here[/QUOTE]Ami meant creative team. Though I do agree that Joker will probably kill Sap and the other three fake Nightwings. Possibly Bea as well, which would remove all of Ric's ties to that life, prompting him to embrace his previous identity as Dick/Nightwing.

I'm not so sure about Bea. In Batman Beyond #41, Dick says that Elainna's mother is dead. What if she is Bea's daughter?
Ok, I'm joking. I hope.

Overall while I don't hate Dick x Babs. I don't like it how everything has to be within the family. I really want there to be more than just Dick x Babs or Babsx Bruce. I mean is Dick with someone right now?

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4856681]Overall while I don't hate Dick x Babs. I don't like it how everything has to be within the family. I really want there to be more than just Dick x Babs or Babsx Bruce. I mean is Dick with someone right now?[/QUOTE]

So what do you want ?

I mean I like Kori and Dick. But I thought Dick had other serious relationships. Same with Babs. I don’t hate these pairings it’s just sometimes they made Dick a Dick. Cheats on one with the other. Just keep Dick single if they are going to keep him a cheat with the two

[QUOTE=Godlike13;4856259]Even if this is satire, my point is people can’t even tell the difference between the old Nightwing and their new Nightwing. As this satire inadvertently demonstrates. Illustrating what an ineffective waste of time those on it last two years of work has been. It’d be funny if it wasn’t sad.[/QUOTE]

Well that's true enough. Though admittedly, as far as the art goes, it's a white dude with dark hair in a Nightwing costume. They all look the same (artists seem to have like, two-three stock images and they just change the hair and costume). That could be Bruce or Clark in the costume, yknow? :p

But you don't have to convince me this whole Ric thing was a waste of time. I'll be glad when it's over.

Also, on the returned topic of love interests? The only correct answer is Power Girl. :D

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4856681]Overall while I don't hate Dick x, Babs. I don't like it how everything has to be within the family. I really want there to be more than just Dick x Babs or Babsx Bruce. I mean is Dick with someone right now?[/QUOTE]

Bea

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4856775]I mean I like Kori and Dick. But I thought Dick had other serious relationships. Same with Babs. I don’t hate these pairings it’s just sometimes they made Dick a Dick. Cheats on one with the other. Just keep Dick single if they are going to keep him a cheat with the two[/QUOTE]

Okay, where have you been hanging out? The number of comic book issues where he cheats, or listed women like a player is literally three out of a thousand but some anti shippers like to bring them up to show that Dick's a cheater, manwhore or womanizer.