Dick Grayson: Robin / Nightwing Appreciation 2020

[QUOTE=redmax99;4800029]jason going to the circus to see dick grayson? jason being adjancent to the LOA? Jason being red robin, jason murdering his teach after being taught how to do the job right.[/QUOTE]
Most of this stuff is from pre Flashpoint before Lobdell ever wrote Jason, only exception is the circus thing and thats not really taken from Tim, since Jason didn't saw Tims parents die.

Appart fro this:
- Jason used Red Robin before Tim, technically Dick used it first in an else world but it is note really an iconic identity or design for him
- Jason's connection to the LOA was iirc revealed around the time Damian showed up, and since UtRH predates Damians first introduction, that connection might have been actually been planned before Damian was created
- iirc Thalia killed Damian's teachers and not he himself, and I think that this was also only added after Flashpoint, while Jason killing his teachers was established pre Flashpoint and I'm not really sure if it is still part of his post Flashpoint backstory

[QUOTE=Ascended;4800399]Steph on the other hand? Someone said it was 4 issues. Now, I'm not discounting her fans nor her contributions over the years. But she was Robin for four issues? Come on. [/QUOTE]
Btw. Bruce Wayne Jr. (the Robin from the imaginary silver age stories) hat that many appearances (that I could find, there might be more) and those were complete stories .

[QUOTE=Aahz;4800661]Most of this stuff is from pre Flashpoint before Lobdell ever wrote Jason, only exception is the circus thing and thats not really taken from Tim, since Jason didn't saw Tims parents die.

Appart fro this:
- Jason used Red Robin before Tim, technically Dick used it first in an else world but it is note really an iconic identity or design for him
- Jason's connection to the LOA was iirc revealed around the time Damian showed up, and since UtRH predates Damians first introduction, that connection might have been actually been planned before Damian was created
- iirc Thalia killed Damian's teachers and not he himself, and I think that this was also only added after Flashpoint, while Jason killing his teachers was established pre Flashpoint and I'm not really sure if it is still part of his post Flashpoint backstory[/QUOTE]

Who do you think Red Robin was designed for?

[QUOTE=Godlike13;4800679]Who do you think Red Robin was designed for?[/QUOTE]For Dick.

Maybe I formulated it wrong, what I wanted say that this that it is not one of his most iconic costume designs. Reusing it for an other Robin is imo not really taking anything from him.

And as far as I can tell Jasons time as Red Robin was also never referenced in the current continuity, and is by most fans not really considered relevant (I think most were probably happy when he ditched that and went back to beeing Red Hood).

The only Robin where being "Red Robin" is really an important part of his history is Tim, and he used this identity after Jason (and the General) used it.

[QUOTE=Aahz;4800661]Most of this stuff is from pre Flashpoint before Lobdell ever wrote Jason, only exception is the circus thing and thats not really taken from Tim, since Jason didn't saw Tims parents die.

Appart fro this:
- Jason used Red Robin before Tim, technically Dick used it first in an else world but it is note really an iconic identity or design for him
- Jason's connection to the LOA was iirc revealed around the time Damian showed up, and since UtRH predates Damians first introduction, that connection might have been actually been planned before Damian was created
- iirc Thalia killed Damian's teachers and not he himself, and I think that this was also only added after Flashpoint, while Jason killing his teachers was established pre Flashpoint and I'm not really sure if it is still part of his post Flashpoint backstory[/QUOTE]

no i was asking Rakiduam what Jason Took from Tim and Damian, because they said jason took from all of the robins to make his history interesting.those was just my examples to counter point if they said yes.

[QUOTE=Drako;4798348]Variant covers for Robin 80th Anniversary 100-Page Super Spectacular #1.
Dick has four covers. They chose Carrie over Jason for the 80's cover, weird.

1940s - Jim Lee (cover coming soon)
[/QUOTE]And here it is.
[img]https://i.redd.it/mfnx1jfy9uc41.jpg[/img]

[QUOTE=Aahz;4800661]Most of this stuff is from pre Flashpoint before Lobdell ever wrote Jason, only exception is the circus thing and thats not really taken from Tim, since Jason didn't saw Tims parents die.

Appart fro this:
- Jason used Red Robin before Tim, technically Dick used it first in an else world but it is note really an iconic identity or design for him
- Jason's connection to the LOA was iirc revealed around the time Damian showed up, and since UtRH predates Damians first introduction, that connection might have been actually been planned before Damian was created
- iirc Thalia killed Damian's teachers and not he himself, and I think that this was also only added after Flashpoint, while Jason killing his teachers was established pre Flashpoint and I'm not really sure if it is still part of his post Flashpoint backstory[/QUOTE]

Damian was created in Birth of the Demon.
Also Ibn in Kingdom come both predate UTRH.

All the Dick covers look great. Particularly love the one with Batman and Batgirl.

On the subject of Steph: wasn't her tenure as Robin involved in one of the most maligned Batman stories ever, and doesn't do her or Bruce any favors as characters? If DC does a similar celebration for the Batgirl identity she should definitely get some covers, but her time as Robin was brief and sucked for everyone involved (including her). Who needs to be reminded of any of it?

[QUOTE=Godlike13;4799665]While i don’t really care one way or the other about Steph getting a cover, but where is Duke then?

Also I don’t care how much one is a fan a Jason, his death was by far the most remarkable thing that happen during his tenure by a huge margin. [B]Saving Superman isn’t even in the ball park. Come on now.[/B][/QUOTE]

And the one improvement the JLU adaptation made was giving that bit to Wonder Woman, because otherwise she just gets beat up by Mongul and dropped out of the story. It's not a remarkable moment if they can give it to another character and have it work even better

[QUOTE=dietrich;4800841]Damian was created in Birth of the Demon.
Also Ibn in Kingdom come both predate UTRH.[/QUOTE]There was also Tallant Wayne from "Brotherhood of the Bat",but those are all pretty different from Damian, had a very different training and were not part of the main continuity at the time of UtRH.

Here's that last cover again, inked and coloured:
[img]https://i.redd.it/gwy7ngzn87d41.jpg[/img]

SPOILERS for Batman Beyond #40.

[spoil]Dicks' daughter Ellaina is the New Batwoman.[/spoil]

Links for the pages: [url]https://imgur.com/a/qxDxipE[/url]

[QUOTE=Drako;4804118]SPOILERS for Batman Beyond #40.

[spoil]Dicks' daughter Ellaina is the New Batwoman.[/spoil]

Links for the pages: [url]https://imgur.com/a/qxDxipE[/url][/QUOTE]

Who is the mother

Who is Ellaina?

[QUOTE=Godlike13;4804172]Who is Ellaina?[/QUOTE]

His daughter apparently

[QUOTE=Godlike13;4804172]Who is Ellaina?[/QUOTE]

[SPOIL] The mysterious Batwoman in Batman Beyond who it turns out is Dick's Daughter but we don't yet know the mum [/SPOIL]

[QUOTE=Rac7d*;4804224]His daughter apparently[/QUOTE]

Yes. Batman Beyond #25 (December 2018) introduced us to this BB Continuity's Dick Grayson, who has become Mayor of Bludhaven and has a daughter, Elainna. He wants her to have a "normal" safe life, although apparently she was in "the service." I don't think we have learned who her mother is, although Dick indicates that her mother is the reason he wants Elainna to stay away from the caped set.

(I referred to "this BB Continuity" because the various BB books seem to all have their own continuity each time they relaunch and the past stories don't necessarily transfer over to the next series. I think we are currently on "Volume 6" but I could easily have lost count...)

[QUOTE=Tulku;4804270]Yes. Batman Beyond #25 (December 2018) introduced us to this BB Continuity's Dick Grayson, who has become Mayor of Bludhaven and has a daughter, Elainna. He wants her to have a "normal" safe life, although apparently she was in "the service." I don't think we have learned who her mother is, although Dick indicates that her mother is the reason he wants Elainna to stay away from the caped set.

(I referred to "this BB Continuity" because the various BB books seem to all have their own continuity each time they relaunch and the past stories don't necessarily transfer over to the next series. I think we are currently on "Volume 6" but I could easily have lost count...)[/QUOTE]

Sounds like babs or Shawn

I doubt Jurgan's even knows who Shawn is.

Clearly he doesn't, considering he's Nightwing's current writer, and she hasn't been used.

Babs would make sense. I think we can rule out Huntress (as that would probably make Elainna dark skinned) and Starfire (she'd inherit her superpowers). Of course, Mom may not even be an established character.

And yes, the Rebirth series is volume 6.

[QUOTE=Rac7d*;4804298]Sounds like babs or Shawn[/QUOTE]

I'm going with neither. Unless Dick and Babs got a divorce, but it hasn't been referenced at all.

And Shawn... Yeah. That's a one and done and basically swept under the rug at this point.

[QUOTE=Digifiend;4804766]Clearly he doesn't, considering he's Nightwing's current writer, and she hasn't been used.

Babs would make sense. I think we can rule out Huntress (as that would probably make Elainna dark skinned) and Starfire (she'd inherit her superpowers). Of course, Mom may not even be an established character.

And yes, the Rebirth series is volume 6.[/QUOTE]

Elainna means "sun ray". So I think Starfire is the best bet.

Do we know that human - tammeranian children necessarilly inherit the powers? Didn't Damian and Dick's daughter Mar'i in Kingdom Come have two children and one looked tammeranian and the other human.

[QUOTE=Digifiend;4804766]Clearly he doesn't, considering he's Nightwing's current writer, and she hasn't been used.[/QUOTE]

As much as I loved Seeley, Shawn always felt pretty forgettable. He never really wanted to do Bludhaven, and I think that Shawn is a product of that. "Oh well I have to do this? Um... here is a... *checks notes* ...love interest."

She has dark eyes. The mother would have to have dark eyes (brown, I guess. But comics paint black eyes dark blue too), if they tried to follow some semblance of biological logic.

From what I've seen of her she seems cool and interesting looking forward to her as batwoman. Oh isn't this canon?

I doubt the mother is babs, starfire or helena. So who would you think/like to be the mother if not those three.

I would like an original character or one that's never revealed. Just don't make it another Dc Character that'll just add more sides to the shipping war.

[QUOTE=dropkickjake;4804862]As much as I loved Seeley, Shawn always felt pretty forgettable. He never really wanted to do Bludhaven, and I think that Shawn is a product of that. "Oh well I have to do this? Um... here is a... *checks notes* ...love interest."[/QUOTE]

I like Shawn especially after the Nightwing must die arc. She levelled up a lot

[QUOTE=dietrich;4805359]I like Shawn especially after the Nightwing must die arc. She levelled up a lot[/QUOTE]

Shawn wasn't a bad character, to be sure. But in the grand scheme of things, just not that up there.

[QUOTE=WonderNight;4805190]Oh isn't this canon?
[/QUOTE]If I understand right, vols 5 and 6 of Beyond are set in the Futures End continuity.

[QUOTE=Digifiend;4805978]If I understand right, vols 5 and 6 of Beyond are set in the Futures End continuity.[/QUOTE]

it's set in the rebirth continunity. future ends only meant to bring them in to mainverse they even mention dick getting shot by kgbeast

Then that's ANOTHER set of characters listed on the Fandom wiki incorrectly. They have Conner and Bart from Young Justice listed as Prime Earth when both are actually definitely the pre-Flashpoint characters and thus should be listed as New Earth. In Conner's case that means they have two different characters' stuff mixed in together, and it'll be the same for the Beyond characters.:mad:

[QUOTE=dropkickjake;4804862]As much as I loved Seeley, Shawn always felt pretty forgettable. He never really wanted to do Bludhaven, and I think that Shawn is a product of that. "Oh well I have to do this? Um... here is a... *checks notes* ...love interest."[/QUOTE]
I think he was a little more into her then that, because he seemed happy to be introducing some new romance in Dick's life, but maybe his lack of enthusiasm for Bludhaven effected how he wrote her.

[QUOTE=Frontier;4806784]I think he was a little more into her then that, because he seemed happy to be introducing some new romance in Dick's life, but maybe his lack of enthusiasm for Bludhaven effected how he wrote her.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, in effort to be comical I may have minimized his investment in her, but he certainly had much more enthusiasm for Batman's global strike force of one. I think he lack of enthusiasm for the city permeated every arc set in Bludhaven and influenced her as much as anyone. In any case, there was never a point where she felt like a character that would outlast her creator.

Shawn could have easily lived in Gotham and there'd hardly be any difference. Probably the only decent thing to come out of new Bludhaven, along with She Bullock (forgot her name, but her and Harvey on the force together would be gold).

I liked Shawn. I was actually kinda bummed when her pregnancy turned out to be a false alarm. Out of the MANY women Dick's been paired with, both in and out of canon, she's the only one aside from the usual two that I really have a damn about seeing him with.

[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;4806972]Shawn could have easily lived in Gotham and there'd hardly be any difference. Probably the only decent thing to come out of new Bludhaven, along with She Bullock (forgot her name, but her and Harvey on the force together would be gold).[/QUOTE]

Svoboda. I like her too.

The problem with Shawn was they rush it. She's just introduced and now she's suddenly the love of his life, they do a date montage, and fans of Kori didn't take kindly to Kori being relegated to just a college fling that's not comparable to Shawn, which, objectively, they're right, Kori wasn't just a college fling.

Also, Seeley (and King) is the one who makes Dick says he'll always come back to Babs.

So when Seeley left and she doesn't appear again, then it's back to DickBabs tease, it only serves to reinforce the idea that... yeah... we figured that it's not gonna last that long

[QUOTE=Restingvoice;4807414]Svoboda. I like her too.

The problem with Shawn was they rush it. She's just introduced and now she's suddenly the love of his life, they do a date montage, and fans of Kori didn't take kindly to Kori being relegated to just a college fling that's not comparable to Shawn, which, objectively, they're right, Kori wasn't just a college fling.

Also, Seeley (and King) is the one who makes Dick says he'll always come back to Babs.

So when Seeley left and she doesn't appear again, then it's back to DickBabs tease, it only serves to reinforce the idea that... yeah... we figured that it's not gonna last that long[/QUOTE]

In the timeline they created she is a college fling from 17-21 then they split and then barely talk anymore
The problem that kori has never dated anyone else after dick of any significance aside from Roy

[QUOTE=Rac7d*;4807440]In the timeline they created she is a college fling from 17-21 then they split and then barely talk anymore [/QUOTE]

Yeah, and that's the other problem. In a long time characters like these, people's emotional memory of a classic story will be stronger than whatever new facts DC makes because that's what a good story will do to readers. So if the new facts they make are not better than what they have, it will be rejected.

So the thing they shouldn't do when promoting a new love interest is not to downplay the old one.

The post New 52 Nightwing books had nothing to do with that.

[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;4806972]Shawn could have easily lived in Gotham and there'd hardly be any difference. Probably the only decent thing to come out of new Bludhaven, along with She Bullock (forgot her name, but her and Harvey on the force together would be gold).[/QUOTE]

This. I liked Svoboda since her first appearance. Shawn was interesting for a couple of issues, than the rushed romance and the whole pregnancy plot ruined everything. I'm still pissed of for the Dick/Helena relationship, top.
And I agree with Restingvoice: downplaying the old love interests doesn't make the new one appealing

I'm completely indifferent towards Shawn, but I did really dislike the pregnancy scare story as I thought it was dumb. Everyone knew she wouldn't be pregnant and it was so much pointless drama and Dick acting like a headcase. Also hated how Seeley wrapped up the Helena romance in Nightwing after it was built up so slowly in the Grayson series. It was massively disappointing to see how the Grayson series was basically cancelled for Rebirth just as it was about to start its big Spy Wars arc, and I kind of wish Seeley had just left the Helena romance hanging in the Grayson series than to quickly bring it back at the end of his Nightwing run and rush some unsatisfying conclusion for it.

But the main reason Shawn was created was because Dick had no reason to give a shit about Bludhaven when Rebirth started. He had never been there, knew no one there, and was only going there because Rebirth Superman told him to go there randomly since that is where DC wanted the Rebirth Nightwing run set. So because Dick had no connection to Bludhaven Seeley was left trying to figure out a way to have Dick care about it. So he created Shawn as a way to tie Dick to the city and anchor him there, which made the romance feel rushed and Dick talking about how she "might be the one" felt unearned, but Seeley needed her character otherwise Dick acting like Bludhaven is some super important place to him would feel even more out of place than it already does.

As for Dick's future or alt reality kids I really don't care about any of them. They all feel completely forgettable and I have no desire to see them again in a story. Although I think in general most alt/future children comic stories are pretty bad. It is really tough to write a story like that where it works I think.