Dick Grayson: Robin / Nightwing Appreciation 2020

NIghtwing's butt history

[video=youtube;t-P1ZRAeN4Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-P1ZRAeN4Y[/video]

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5014647]NIghtwing's butt history

[video=youtube;t-P1ZRAeN4Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-P1ZRAeN4Y[/video][/QUOTE]

Hmm she must of missed that recent panel

.....can't tell if talking about Dick's ass is a sign of how bad things are with the character right now......or just business as usual in the fandom......

:D

[QUOTE=Ascended;5014931].....can't tell if talking about Dick's ass is a sign of how bad things are with the character right now......or just business as usual in the fandom......

:D[/QUOTE]

A bit of both really.

How often should DIck ever took up the batman mantle?

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5016242]How often should DIck ever took up the batman mantle?[/QUOTE]
Very rarely! Nightwing has already been reduced down to robin status and people viewing nightwing as a stepping stone to batman. Not his own hero.

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5016242]How often should DIck ever took up the batman mantle?[/QUOTE]

Not very often in my opinion, as much as I like DickBats is really doesn’t do much for him, it hasn’t risen his profile or importance to the DCU in fact I think it’s done the opposite. Instead of coming off a an equal to the Trinity and the other major members of the league he instead comes off as Bruce’s second string replacement. Ultimately putting on the cowl should be an absolute last resort for Dick not something he would do without hesitation when being Nightwing at that moment would have been just as good.

[QUOTE=Jcady59;5016301]Not very often in my opinion, as much as I like DickBats is really doesn’t do much for him, it hasn’t risen his profile or importance to the DCU in fact I think it’s done the opposite. Instead of coming off a an equal to the Trinity and the other major members of the league he instead comes off as Bruce’s second string replacement. Ultimately putting on the cowl should be an absolute last resort for Dick not something he would do without hesitation when being Nightwing at that moment would have been just as good.[/QUOTE]

This.

You know when Dick should take up the mantle again?

Never.

It's done nothing but reinforce DC's perception that Dick is only Bat-lite. It does nothing to help establish Dick as his own man, his own hero, or his own IP.

[QUOTE=Restingvoice;5013837]In The New 52 one, his gloves are armored with compartments for various gadgets.

I don't remember with that particular costume, but there's another costume where there's a circle of Utility-Belt-like cylinders around the hem of his gloves and boots

This is a good close up. There are those pockets
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I think it would be nice if they brought that back again. I mean secret compartments. Gives him a element of secret
.

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5016635]I think it would be nice if they brought that back again. I mean secret compartments. Gives him a element of secret
.[/QUOTE]

Apparently, in the newer classic costume, his gloves are really fat

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This was the end of Blockbuster arc

Of course, I prefer pockets. This one looks goofy.

[QUOTE=Ascended;5016424]This.

You know when Dick should take up the mantle again?

Never.

It's done nothing but reinforce DC's perception that Dick is only Bat-lite. It does nothing to help establish Dick as his own man, his own hero, or his own IP.[/QUOTE]

Yeah. But DickBats was so good. I will even say he is a better Batman than Bruce. Black Mirror and B&R run was better than any Batman and B&R run post-New52. Dick may be Batman but like Wally he improved his legacy. Dick wasn't a Bat-lite, he was improved Batman. If DC make Nightwing into improved Batman, Dick can truly shine. He is the best parts of Batman and Superman. The greatest leader in the DCU. The Nightwing.

[QUOTE=qwazer07;5017146]Yeah. But DickBats was so good. I will even say he is a better Batman than Bruce. Black Mirror and B&R run was better than any Batman and B&R run post-New52. Dick may be Batman but like Wally he improved his legacy. Dick wasn't a Bat-lite, he was improved Batman. If DC make Nightwing into improved Batman, Dick can truly shine. He is the best parts of Batman and Superman. The greatest leader in the DCU. The Nightwing.[/QUOTE]

I agree that Dick's a better character than Bruce, and was a better Batman. Dickbats was great.

But Dick being Batman doesn't help Dick, it helps Batman. And end of the day Batman will always be Bruce Wayne, whether Bruce is wearing the cowl for a particular story or not.

Like that new Snyder project? It's great that DC's biggest writer is gonna write Dick, and Snyder writes a pretty damn solid Dick Grayson. I look forward to that story. But if the story has Dick in the Bat cowl, that doesn't help Dick; it doesn't make him a bigger, better character, it doesn't make him more popular or attract new fans to Nightwing. It'll just be a Batman story with someone else in the cowl; a sidekick who stepped up for a second. It'll help Batman, not Nightwing, even though it's not Bruce in the costume.

And Dick? It'll just reinforce the notion that he's still just a sidekick, working below Batman, waiting to take over the family business instead of being his own man.

I'd really rather just see Dick shipped off to the Super office. Especially while Bendis is still around, I feel like Dick would get treated a lot better there.

I wanted to chime in and say how happy I was with how DC treated Dick as Batman. If it was another story about trying to live up to Bruce, it would have a been a boring re tread. Instead, he became his own (Bat)man, smart, solid, and unafraid. It was as good a Batman run as we’ve seen in decades.

Once again maybe it's time for Dick and the bats to slipt for a bit. I don't mean in a falling out. Rather maybe it's time Dick to go on a break from Batman comics. And just be his own thing. Like on Titans or just his own special event

The thing about DickBats is that it’s an asset and a reinforcement of the value of [I]Dick Grayson[/I] as an IP... but it’s not an asset to [I]Nightwing[/I] as an IP, so if a prevailing view says that “Batman” is a more powerful IP than Bruce Wayne, but Bruce Wayne is the best IP for Batman’s civilian identity, than it doesn’t help Dick Grayson.

Basically, if/when Dick finally gets the respect he deserves int he larger culture, his time as Batman is an edge and a measurement of his value... but as long as people don’t value Dick Grayson enough, it’s not nearly as much of an asset.

Basically... Dick needs his profile raised even more, likely in movies, and the Nightwing IP itself could use some likewise promotion.

Honestly... I think it might be time to consider something like putting Nightwing on the Justice League instead of Batman, and have him occupy Bruce’s traditional place for a while.

I guess that's why Kori might be a better match since she is outside of the IP of Batman. The thing is Batman been there for so long that it would make no sense for Dick to be on JL. Unless he is on his own branch. They need to have a reason for Dick to be on JL. He is in the TT. So unless he and the TT are going to be a new branch of JL. In a sense, we need to have the TT prove themselves even more now too. Dick is generally the leader of the group.

The thing about DickBat was the level of creators he saw as Batman compared to what Nightwing see’s.

Putting him on the JL isn’t gonna raise him profile. As Dick on the JL is guaranteed to be something that is contained to comics and ultimately superficial. Characters come and go on the JL all the time. Unless your one of the main 7, or a diversity push, it more times then not amounts to very little.

If they want to raise Nightwing’s profile they need to invest into Nightwing more. That means better creators on the character, consistency with the character, and better standards and quality control from editorial. They get what they put in. They certainly didn’t look at bottom charting books like RHatO or Batman Beyond and seriously think that those guys were gonna reignite Nightwing for them. And understand this is on purpose. They are content were Nightwing’s profile is. They are content with having a fodder book that can help carry some of their in house creators or break in new creators.
Remember Nightwing is perceived as a threat, they have come out and said this, the comic division is not interested in improving Nightwing’s profile. They are though content having a throwaway fodder book that no one high up actually gives a crap how the editors and creators actually perform their job on. As long as it makes print at least.

[QUOTE=godisawesome;5017574]The thing about DickBats is that itÂ’s an asset and a reinforcement of the value of [I]Dick Grayson[/I] as an IP... but itÂ’s not an asset to [I]Nightwing[/I] as an IP[/QUOTE]

That is an excellent way of putting it.

Anyway, Dick on the League would be....okay. We've seen DC put other characters there, expecting them to become big deals just through the osmosis of being in the League, and it does not work. Just look at Cyborg; DC thought "We put him in the JLA, he's an A-lister! How easy!" But it doesn't work like that; the League doesn't make A-listers, it's where A-listers hang out.

I feel like putting Dick in the League would be a nice feather in his cap, but would it really achieve much? I feel like Dick would just be seen as a temporary replacement for Bruce.....the understudy. It'd just reinforce the notion that Dick follows in Bruce's footsteps as the loyal soldier. JLA is Bat territory, nothing a writer does with Dick is gonna change that. It'd be great to see Dick hang with the biggest guns, but would it convince people that he should be counted among them?

I think right now, if increasing Dick's profile is the goal then you need a writer who can stick around long term and build a unique world and mythos around Dick that is his, where he is "king." Long term investment. He needs major roles in Events where he has agency, a major impact on the plot, and cool feats on par with the big guns.

But more than anything Dick needs a little bit of a focused push in larger media. Dick's everywhere; cartoons, live action, video games. Dick Grayson appears in larger media more than anyone except probably Bats. But he's never the main focus. He needs to be the star of the show for a change. I believe that one quality effort; a movie or a game (preferably a film), would be enough to get the ball rolling. Success breeds success, so all DC has to do.....is tell a good Nightwing story.

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5017681]I guess that's why Kori might be a better match since she is outside of the IP of Batman. The thing is Batman been there for so long that it would make no sense for Dick to be on JL. Unless he is on his own branch. They need to have a reason for Dick to be on JL. He is in the TT. So unless he and the TT are going to be a new branch of JL. In a sense, we need to have the TT prove themselves even more now too. Dick is generally the leader of the group.[/QUOTE]Dick's last Titans team (which his amnesia forced him out of) actually was part of the Justice League and based out of the Hall of Justice instead of a Titans Tower.

You're right about dick needing to be a "king" of his own kingdom. One of nightwing's biggest problems that most don't talk about is that is always pushed as supporting character. It's why he doesn't get the top talent or investment form DC. DC invest in lead character's, characters that is or can be the kings or queens of there own world. As long as nightwing as an Ip is batman's first lieutenant, the first prince. he'll never get the investment he needs.

We know the truth. You are still here after 2 years of Ric.

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Okay. So what if to help Dick out more. Dick make his own branch in JL? What would it be? Also the more I think about it. With one of the storylines of Dick helping talons and talons in training that's what the T tower could be. They use it to help them. While they use te Hall of Justice or both. If we want him in the JL there should be a good storyline. What would it be?

I know this particular board isn't too Bludhaven friendly, and I do see the flaws in that era, but I will say that it was the first (and only) time that Nightwing really felt like he had his own world and brand imo. Even Grayson, wonderful as it was, kinda hinged on the whole "bat lieutenant" idea of the character.

[QUOTE=Valentonis;5018965]I know this particular board isn't too Bludhaven friendly, and I do see the flaws in that era, but I will say that it was the first (and only) time that Nightwing really felt like he had his own world and brand imo. Even Grayson, wonderful as it was, kinda hinged on the whole "bat lieutenant" idea of the character.[/QUOTE]

Other than of course the Titans, but apparently that's not too popular here either

[QUOTE=Valentonis;5018965]I know this particular board isn't too Bludhaven friendly, and I do see the flaws in that era, but I will say that it was the first (and only) time that Nightwing really felt like he had his own world and brand imo. Even Grayson, wonderful as it was, kinda hinged on the whole "bat lieutenant" idea of the character.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Pohzee;5019148]Other than of course the Titans, but apparently that's not too popular here either[/QUOTE]
That era of Nightwing is arguably both his high point in terms of selling the Nightwing IP’s value, but also one that demonstrates where the limits of it *might* be.

Blüdhaven was a fully realized setting, and the book at the time had a full supporting cast, and all of it devoted to Dick as Nightwing. The Titans team were overall recognized as “graduates” who were worthy of comparison with the League in stuff like “The Technis Imperative” - partially a function of the original five members and the TNTT generation being amalgamated into the same franchise, and with Wally being arguably even more the “graduated sidekick“ then Dick and reinforcing their peership through his membership in the League and highly successful run as the main Flash.

But it’s also got Dixon still playing Nightwing very much as Batman’s second instead of his peer, had that generation of Titans somewhat unsupported by editorial before it wound up getting trashed along with Young Justice, and around that time Nightwing’s solo started to fall apart thanks to the problems caused by Devin Grayson having an off day on a “Born Again”-esque story crossing over with War Games right before Dan Didio tried to kill him off in Infinite Crisis.

Basically, the foundation wasn’t necessarily up to snuff for a long term comparison, than it got torched, and the Nightwing IP’s value was clearly undervalued by editorial shortly afterward.

You could tell the “peer-ship” with Bruce was more of a thing that *some* creatives did, and that it wasn’t an editorial thing

The Dixon run is probably why I can never give up on Bludhaven despite it's stupid name.

If I got a hold of Dick? I'd still station him there. I just wouldn't maroon him there. Like Bruce, he'd go on his own adventures globally as well. Play into how connected he is. But his base of operations? Sure, Bludhaven works as well as anywhere else. They just need to make it distinct. Rebirth made it a bit more like Vegas and it absolutely should be. Make it the sleazy, flashy sister city to Gotham. Where Gotham is industrial and a gothic nightmare, Bludhaven is all neon glitz and glamour with a really gross underbelly. It's where Gotham's "finest" go to have a good time. One long, drawn out party that Dick's going to crash.

Everyone hates that place, but I'm convinced it's because it's just too similar to Gotham to wonder why Dick just doesn't stay in Gotham. It can still work. If James Robinson could make [B]Opal City[/B] feel like someplace I visited with my family as a child, then Bludhaven can work too.

I’m not sure if its hate or more just frustration. Bludhaven can’t make it past one creator before the next one resets it back to default. So it’s hard to expect readers to invest into or champion something like that. There is never ever a pay off with Bludhaven. At some point what it could be gets murdered by the reality of what it is with crap like Ric. They did it after Dixon, and then they did it yet again after Seeley. Bludhaven, and Titans for that matter, pay for DC’s and certain creators mediocrity and inability. And if they continue to do what they are doing, this is what is going to happen to Nightwing himself.

[QUOTE=WonderNight;5018502]You're right about dick needing to be a "king" of his own kingdom. One of nightwing's biggest problems that most don't talk about is that is always pushed as supporting character. It's why he doesn't get the top talent or investment form DC. DC invest in lead character's, characters that is or can be the kings or queens of there own world. As long as nightwing as an Ip is batman's first lieutenant, the first prince. he'll never get the investment he needs.[/QUOTE]

We do talk about it all the time. DC just doesn't get it or likes having their cake and eating it. Hyping his value and status up when it suits them and treating him like another Robin when it suits them or to suit the bat verse story

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5018960]Okay. So what if to help Dick out more. Dick make his own branch in JL? What would it be? Also the more I think about it. With one of the storylines of Dick helping talons and talons in training that's what the T tower could be. They use it to help them. While they use te Hall of Justice or both. If we want him in the JL there should be a good storyline. What would it be?[/QUOTE]

He just joins just like every other member. We don't need a storyline since it'd likely be linked to Bruce in some way. I don't want Dick on the JL since that likely will end up another nail in the Bruce lite coffin the character's currently in.

I really enjoyed Grayson. That was unique but I suppose that wasn't sustainable in the longterm.

Nightwing doesn't need the JL to be 1st tier. He just needs a new creative team with good fresh ideas and dedication from DC.

Synder's pitch is interesting sadly it's just exploration of various stages of the character and not anything that will repair or restore the character.

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5018960]So what if to help Dick out more. Dick make his own branch in JL? [/QUOTE]Justice League Offshots have usually a very limited success and life time.

is Dick still going to have an ongoing when Snyder does his black label project?

[QUOTE=Elmo;5020269]is Dick still going to have an ongoing when Snyder does his black label project?[/QUOTE]
I would be surprised if there is not a Nightwing ongoing when DC inevitably relaunches unless they really scale back the line.

[QUOTE=Elmo;5020269]is Dick still going to have an ongoing when Snyder does his black label project?[/QUOTE]

I would assume so?

Hard to say though. Lot of stuff happening in the world, lot of stuff happening with DC and the direct market.

But Didio wasn't able to kill the book (I'm sure he would have, had he been able to get away with it) and I don't see Lee succeeding there either, if cancelling Nightwing is even something he wants to do....which I feel like it isn't. World has turned upside down since Didio left but we're already getting at least the hint of better treatment under Lee.

He's had a consistent ongoing title since the mid 90s. I would think he would still have his DCU book, but who knows. DC is going through a lot of changes I imagine, and I wouldn't be that surprised if DC shakes things up. I could see them not wanting him to have a competing ongoing with Snyder's Black Label book or just don't think a Nightwing ongoing is worth it anymore. They did just go through two years of dragging the character through garbage and selling it to people in the form of Ric Grayson.

Also it seems that the recent movie news complicates the Nightwing movie even more. I didn't think the movie would happen, but it feels like it got more difficult. The Reeve Batman movies are going to be their own separate thing (not a big surprise) and I can see him going the Nolan route and not wanting to use Robin. So that would eliminate Dick from appearing in those movies, and Dick is already dead in the Zack Snyder movie universe. So that rules him out there. Now it seems with Keaton coming back to play Batman in some mentor-like role and it is rumored they want to focus on Batgirl with that as well. So it seems they skipped over Robin and Nightwing unless they might have them in some kind of supporting role there, but who knows.

Well technically they did say the movies might have retcons. Sucide Movie is having retcons.

Hahaha! They are replacing DCEU Batman to make him mentor Batgirl or Batman Beyond. Nightwing is skipped or forgotten or killed again. Thank you DC, Warner and AT&T! I'm dead. That's it... I can't handle this anymore. Maybe Dick gets a cameo as a real person. Or another Robin costume with a middle finger sprayed on it. I don't know. I wish I could stop caring...

[QUOTE=qwazer07;5020791]Hahaha! They are replacing DCEU Batman to make him mentor Batgirl or Batman Beyond. Nightwing is skipped or forgotten or killed again. Thank you DC, Warner and AT&T! I'm dead. That's it... I can't handle this anymore. Maybe Dick gets a cameo as a real person. Or another Robin costume with a middle finger sprayed on it. I don't know. I wish I could stop caring...[/QUOTE]

I feel you. But it's no use being frustrated on things you can't control or change. You should relax by reading a book, watching tv, exercising or playing video games. All things will end up okay in the end. Don't worry. No matter how much they ruin Dick Grayson, there are always old comics to read and enjoy. No one can take that away.

Eeh, DC's movie plans change on a dime.

[QUOTE=yohyoi;5020811]I feel you. But it's no use being frustrated on things you can't control or change. You should relax by reading a book, watching tv, exercising or playing video games. All things will end up okay in the end. Don't worry. No matter how much they ruin Dick Grayson, there are always old comics to read and enjoy. No one can take that away.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. I will take a break and watch some tv series I have been planning to watch. There is no use crying on spilled milk :D

[QUOTE=Badou;5020567]Dick is already dead in the Zack Snyder movie universe.[/QUOTE]What the hell? I knew there was a dead Robin, but I assumed it was Jason, like in the comics.