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Yea this is why I have an issue with Dick and Babs. Since Dc does at times make Babs and Bruce date. Which is why I rather have him date Kori. I mean Zatanna and Bruce isn't the most popular couple. I mean even if they aren't the same age it wouldn't be too bad. I mean how age is she suppose to be?
I don't get the issue. Babs is passed around the Bat family. Why is it Dick who has to take the blame? Not Bruce? Jason? Tim? Luke? Kori also slept with Roy. Are we also removing Kori? What about Damian and Raven? I'm pretty sure Dick and Raven had dream sex. Dick can date Zatanna.
Point is I’m not okay with Babs being passed around the Bat Family, or Jason and Roy high fiving over banging Kori. So all things being equal, I don’t think Bruce’s love interests should be shared between the family either.
Babs, Kori, Talia, etc. don't belong to Dick, Bruce, etc. They are not just a love interest. Batman fans gets too defensive over their ships. "Oh, Talia, Catwoman, Babs, etc. can't date the boys. They belong to Batman." Jesus. Stop being insecure over fictional character relationships. When has been the last time Bruce and Zee ever been in a relationship? Batman fans can't let go. And by Batman, this also goes with Dick. Let Kori grow out of being just Dick's fling. She is an all powerful alien princess with greater understanding of love, emotions and kindness than anyone in Earth. Yet she keeps on moping about Dick.
Not liking to see Kori and Babs do the rounds with Dick's family and friends, or Talia and Catwoman banging Bruce's sons isn't being insecure over fictional character relationships. This is an issue with family and friends sharing love interests in general. It wouldn't be cool for Dick to hook up Black Canary or Blackfire, or having a go with all the Batgirls.
It's fictional. Diana can't date Bruce or Clark now. What about Dick being passed around the DCU. Comic readers are looking at it in a male gaze and perspective. A guy can date multiple women. But once a women does it. Fanboys complain like the world is ending. People in real life date their ex's friends and even family. Why not comic books where everyone had 10+ love interest since their creation.
See my ex's never dated my brother, and i never hooked up with his. Does this happen sure, does it need to be a common things between them though no it doesn't. Cause its not that common and its usually done in drama to create more drama. Your trying generalize the issue into something else. From not being cool with their respective love interests dating their friends and family, to not being cool with their love interests dating anyone else.
Okay. Let's just end this. I don't agree with how conservative, prudish, patriarchal Americans comics are but yet still show excessive violence. You are comfortable with that and I respect you. Comic books are drama in the end of the day. It's how they sell.
Each character should have their own love interests I mean who would argue with that ?
Aside from fan shipping does the Bat family really have this issue to begin with? Barbara Gordon doesn’t have any memorable love interests other than Dick, Selina is almost always tied to Bruce, Steph Brown with Tim Drake, etc
The issue here is that female characters tend to be tied to one male character whereas male characters usually have a handful of love interests.
I’m all about female characters having more love interests. Within the Bat family, eh, I think anything different from the norm would result in some awkward pairings.
[QUOTE=Shamrock Holmes;4980111]Well, Zatanna was specifically ID'd as 18 when her father disappeared, and she joined the League about a year later IIRC, and Dick was generally stated as being in his mid to late teens during the same period. So in theory they could be as close as five years apart, which is similar to the Silver & Bronze Age gap between Dick and Babs IIRC.[/QUOTE]
You sure Dick was 20-25 in the 1967? I recall in the Batman Family titles in the 70's had him pegged as 18 years old.
EDIT: I found it: [url]http://www.orgamesmic.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/robin-batgirl-age-difference.jpg[/url]
Barbara is explicitly 25 while Dick is still pegged as a teenager in 1976.
We also need to stop calling women names like whore or slut when they have multiple love interests. We need to be better people. Demonizing women for exploring their sexuality is the same as hating LGBT+ people. Nightwing gets this sometime from comic fans because he isn't the traditional toxic masculinity hero. Dick having a good relationship with his ex's and sometimes casual sexual relationship with women is treated as joke by others. It's annoying.
[QUOTE=qwazer07;4980812]I don't get the issue. Babs is passed around the Bat family. Why is it Dick who has to take the blame? Not Bruce? Jason? Tim? Luke? Kori also slept with Roy. Are we also removing Kori? What about Damian and Raven? I'm pretty sure Dick and Raven had dream sex. Dick can date Zatanna.[/QUOTE]
No one's blaming Dick or any of the characters. People always blame the creators. Fans were angry at Batman Beyond, The Killing Joke, and Arkham Knight's team when they did it to Babs. Fans were angry at the creators by the depiction of Talia in the current animated universe. No one had a problem with Luke dating Babs until they found out Dick was deliberately written as a jerk... no... wait, IGN commenters did have a problem with Babs sleeping around, but no one takes those crowd seriously, and even them blame the creators.
The only time I saw fans blaming characters are when they already have perceived beef with that character, like some fans of Babs or Kori who sees Dick as two-timing manwhore because of fandom reputation and think the girls deserve better.
[QUOTE=Restingvoice;4981006]No one's blaming Dick or any of the characters. People always blame the creators. Fans were angry at Batman Beyond, The Killing Joke, and Arkham Knight's team when they did it to Babs. Fans were angry at the creators by the depiction of Talia in the current animated universe. No one had a problem with Luke dating Babs until they found out Dick was deliberately written as a jerk... no... wait, IGN commenters did have a problem with Babs sleeping around, but no one takes those crowd seriously, and even them blame the creators.
The only time I saw fans blaming characters are when they already have perceived beef with that character, like some fans of Babs or Kori who sees Dick as two-timing manwhore because of fandom reputation and think the girls deserve better.[/QUOTE]
It's about execution. Batman Beyond and BTAS were wanking material for certain someone. Arkham Knight suck because Tim was unrecognizable, their relationship had no build up and it felt flat. I actually liked Luke because he was supportive of Babs. Jason and Babs were also cute even if nothing happened.
Zatanna can work if it's executed properly. Make them friends first. They have great chemistry. Dick is also everything Zee wants with Bruce without the bad ones. She could introduce magic in the Nightwing book. Etc. Execution people.
Luke was a completely forgettable character in my opinion, but he is also different from Jason or Bruce in that Luke had no real relationship with anyone in the Batman family. He was a completely blank slate. He wasn't Dick's friend or close ally. The two had never even spoken to each other before. It wasn't the same as Bruce dating Babs in BTAS, having Jason hook up with Babs in the current comics, or having a Roy hook up with Starfire. Where the relationship crosses a line where it feels like betraying a friend or family member. Maybe you like stories like that, but the majority of fans don't. All they do is end up pissing off fans and stories where their goal is to upset fans don't tend to be good. There are plenty of characters out there to date where you don't need to write stories where they are constantly stepping on each others toes all time.
Sleeping Dick by Marcus To.
[URL=http://imgbox.com/5YQH277o][IMG]https://images2.imgbox.com/6e/c8/5YQH277o_o.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[QUOTE=Badou;4981186]Luke was a completely forgettable character in my opinion, but he is also different from Jason or Bruce in that Luke had no real relationship with anyone in the Batman family. He was a completely blank slate. He wasn't Dick's friend or close ally. The two had never even spoken to each other before. It wasn't the same as Bruce dating Babs in BTAS, having Jason hook up with Babs in the current comics, or having a Roy hook up with Starfire. Where the relationship crosses a line where it feels like betraying a friend or family member. Maybe you like stories like that, but the majority of fans don't. All they do is end up pissing off fans and stories where their goal is to upset fans don't tend to be good. There are plenty of characters out there to date where you don't need to write stories where they are constantly stepping on each others toes all time.[/QUOTE]I get fans not liking family and friends dating each others main love interest I agree, but has zatanna and Bruce ever been a thing? I know they're close friends but have they actually been a couple? Dick dating zatanna is more like jason dating donna instead of Jason dating starfire.
A close friend and close family member dating is not a betrayal or problem. Like would Clark view dick dating an adult kara a betrayal or problem? Was bruce and zatanna ever anything more than a possibility that never actually happened?
That’s fair.
[QUOTE=qwazer07;4981050]It's about execution. Batman Beyond and BTAS were wanking material for certain someone. Arkham Knight suck because Tim was unrecognizable, their relationship had no build up and it felt flat. I actually liked Luke because he was supportive of Babs. Jason and Babs were also cute even if nothing happened.
Zatanna can work if it's executed properly. Make them friends first. They have great chemistry. Dick is also everything Zee wants with Bruce without the bad ones. She could introduce magic in the Nightwing book. Etc. Execution people.[/QUOTE]
If Zatanaa was a friend if Bruce growing up then she cannot be a love intrest of dick and that’s it
[QUOTE=Badou;4981186]Luke was a completely forgettable character in my opinion, but he is also different from Jason or Bruce in that Luke had no real relationship with anyone in the Batman family. He was a completely blank slate. He wasn't Dick's friend or close ally. The two had never even spoken to each other before. It wasn't the same as Bruce dating Babs in BTAS, having Jason hook up with Babs in the current comics, or having a Roy hook up with Starfire. Where the relationship crosses a line where it feels like betraying a friend or family member. Maybe you like stories like that, but the majority of fans don't. All they do is end up pissing off fans and stories where their goal is to upset fans don't tend to be good. There are plenty of characters out there to date where you don't need to write stories where they are constantly stepping on each others toes all time.[/QUOTE]
kori was happy with roy. i know they're friends but at the end of the day it wasn't a hook up to get back at dick or with dick.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]96951[/ATTACH]
Batman drinks ginseng
No that's not surprising. He knows all types of medicinal drinks.
I'm just surprised coz it's what my dad drink
Me I don't like the taste
Batman Gotham Nights #5
A mob lawyer who turned out to not be an official lawyer and thus not bound by attorney-client secrecy and can testify in court against them. Gordon thinks there are moles in the GCPD (of course) and ask Batman's help since they can't really trust anyone.
The mob brings Harley
Batman brings Nightwing
My only issue would be, besides having to fiddle around with the already wonky age/timelines of characters, is that Zatanna would once again be back to square one once the creative team decides Nightwing needs a new love interest or supporting cast or Bludhaven needs to be blown up again. At least with Bruce/Zee relationship, it feels more like a backstory thing; 'they trained together and some sparks flew'. Zee currently has to split screen with the JLD members and its kind of annoying when most JLD writers treat her as Constantine's arm candy. I would much rather see the character in a solo setting with her own city, supporting cast and rogues gallery.
[QUOTE=WonderNight;4981444]I get fans not liking family and friends dating each others main love interest I agree, but has zatanna and Bruce ever been a thing? I know they're close friends but have they actually been a couple? Dick dating zatanna is more like jason dating donna instead of Jason dating starfire.
A close friend and close family member dating is not a betrayal or problem. Like would Clark view dick dating an adult kara a betrayal or problem? Was bruce and zatanna ever anything more than a possibility that never actually happened?[/QUOTE]
I don't believe they have ever dated, and it is just implied that Zatanna has strong feelings for Bruce where they now have some background together when they were younger based off the BTAS. I believe that Paul Dini is the one that wrote in the idea of the two having some romantic chemistry and I remember him really not like hearing that Zatanna was changed to be with Dick in the YJ show. I enjoyed Dick and Zatanna's romance in the YJ show, but I can't ever seeing that working in the DCU. Since Zatanna is a contemporary of Bruce's and any writer that could write a story with her and Dick would rather just use Bruce since their bond is already established and Batman is the biggest character in comics.
And it isn't about it just being a close friend and family member. It is a bit more complicated and situational. Clark doesn't have romantic feelings for Kara, so I don't know if that works. I don't think Clark would like Bruce dating Lois, Bruce wouldn't like Dick dating Selina, and Tim wouldn't like Dick dating Stephanie. Romances that are cross generations or with very close friends/family members dating their exs is where it gets questionable. You wouldn't want your best friend or brother dating your ex-wife. It is situations similar to that where people feel weird about it. Those are the kind of romances that are designed to be gross/uncomfortable from the start. The X-Men are littered with romances like that. Like Alex Summers hooking up with Scott's ex-wife, Madelyne Pryor, comes to mind.
Here is a good example. I'm not really a fan of Dick and Starfire's relationship. So lets say they wanted to give Starfire a new love interest with an established character. Bruce, Jason or Tim feel weird because of their close nearly familial relationship to Dick. It is the same reason why them with Babs always feels gross. Wally would be a bit weird too because he is supposed to be Dick's best friend, so he shouldn't cross that line either. Then you have Cyborg, who I think would be a great option for Starfire. He is friends with Dick but they aren't super close, and he also has an independent friendship with Starfire and they are old teammates. So it is a situation where a friend dating a friend's ex doesn't feel wrong, imo.
[QUOTE=redmax99;4981764]kori was happy with roy. i know they're friends but at the end of the day it wasn't a hook up to get back at dick or with dick.[/QUOTE]
That isn't exactly true. In Lobdell's mind they both had some sort of falling out with Dick when he started the New 52 series. He didn't think they should be on good terms with him, since maybe he wanted to prop up Jason as Dick's replacement, but Lobdell is quoted in interviews saying something along the lines of how it doesn't make sense to him to be close or friends with your ex. So he set up undertones that their hook up was in part due to their poor relationship with Dick. Then because Lobdell's take on Starfire was so universally panned he scrapped whatever plans he had and then wrote Roy and Starfire as some couple super in love, which wasn't that great either in my opinion.
Now I'm not a big fan of Dick and Starfire's relationship. So I'm not saying any of this because I felt offended that Starfire was with someone else other than Dick. I just thought how Lobdell wrote their relationship was bad, especially early on where it even felt a little gross. Maybe if Lobdell had taken his time to set up their relationship more instead of having them hop into bed in such a questionable way one issue in it wouldn't have been received so poorly, but who knows. All that was 9 years ago at this point.
Okay. If anything why not has Bludhaven be a season thing? Like Haley's circus is generally on the Road but will come to Bludhaven in the summer. That way if we do have Dick work at Haley's Circus he can be both.
[QUOTE=Badou;4981889]I don't believe they have ever dated, and it is just implied that Zatanna has strong feelings for Bruce where they now have some background together when they were younger based off the BTAS. I believe that Paul Dini is the one that wrote in the idea of the two having some romantic chemistry and I remember him really not like hearing that Zatanna was changed to be with Dick in the YJ show. I enjoyed Dick and Zatanna's romance in the YJ show, but I can't ever seeing that working in the DCU. Since Zatanna is a contemporary of Bruce's and any writer that could write a story with her and Dick would rather just use Bruce since their bond is already established and Batman is the biggest character in comics.
And it isn't about it just being a close friend and family member. It is a bit more complicated and situational. Clark doesn't have romantic feelings for Kara, so I don't know if that works. I don't think Clark would like Bruce dating Lois, Bruce wouldn't like Dick dating Selina, and Tim wouldn't like Dick dating Stephanie. Romances that are cross generations or with very close friends/family members dating their exs is where it gets questionable. You wouldn't want your best friend or brother dating your ex-wife. It is situations similar to that where people feel weird about it. Those are the kind of romances that are designed to be gross/uncomfortable from the start. The X-Men are littered with romances like that. Like Alex Summers hooking up with Scott's ex-wife, Madelyne Pryor, comes to mind.
Here is a good example. I'm not really a fan of Dick and Starfire's relationship. So lets say they wanted to give Starfire a new love interest with an established character. Bruce, Jason or Tim feel weird because of their close nearly familial relationship to Dick. It is the same reason why them with Babs always feels gross. Wally would be a bit weird too because he is supposed to be Dick's best friend, so he shouldn't cross that line either. Then you have Cyborg, who I think would be a great option for Starfire. He is friends with Dick but they aren't super close, and he also has an independent friendship with Starfire and they are old teammates. So it is a situation where a friend dating a friend's ex doesn't feel wrong, imo.
That isn't exactly true. In Lobdell's mind they both had some sort of falling out with Dick when he started the New 52 series. He didn't think they should be on good terms with him, since maybe he wanted to prop up Jason as Dick's replacement, but Lobdell is quoted in interviews saying something along the lines of how it doesn't make sense to him to be close or friends with your ex. So he set up undertones that their hook up was in part due to their poor relationship with Dick. Then because Lobdell's take on Starfire was so universally panned he scrapped whatever plans he had and then wrote Roy and Starfire as some couple super in love, which wasn't that great either in my opinion.
Now I'm not a big fan of Dick and Starfire's relationship. So I'm not saying any of this because I felt offended that Starfire was with someone else other than Dick. I just thought how Lobdell wrote their relationship was bad, especially early on where it even felt a little gross. Maybe if Lobdell had taken his time to set up their relationship more instead of having them hop into bed in such a questionable way one issue in it wouldn't have been received so poorly, but who knows. All that was 9 years ago at this point.[/QUOTE]I get what you're say but bruce a wife/ex wife. Only a close friend that he has love for. It's a lot more dick and donna than dick and starfire.
[QUOTE=John Venus;4980971]You sure Dick was 20-25 in the 1967? I recall in the Batman Family titles in the 70's had him pegged as 18 years old.
EDIT: I found it: [url]http://www.orgamesmic.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/robin-batgirl-age-difference.jpg[/url]
Barbara is explicitly 25 while Dick is still pegged as a teenager in 1976.[/QUOTE]Yeah, Dick only turned 20 during New Teen Titans in the 80s. He started that series aged 19. Dick and Babs only became the same age in New 52, when both were deaged to 21.
[QUOTE=John Venus;4980971]You sure Dick was 20-25 in the 1967? I recall in the Batman Family titles in the 70's had him pegged as 18 years old.
EDIT: I found it: [url]http://www.orgamesmic.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/robin-batgirl-age-difference.jpg[/url]
Barbara is explicitly 25 while Dick is still pegged as a teenager in 1976.[/QUOTE]
On the contrary, I stated that both may have been in their [I]late teens[/I]. Which isn't specifically contradicted by your source either.
That said, my usual go to source contradicts this, and pegs her as about four years younger than Bruce and about 13 years older than Dick pre-[I]Flashpoint[/I] (however, this timeline is not always authoritive, as they list Barbara as 16 when she enters college (true) [I]and[/I] becomes Batgirl (incorrect based on the [I]stated reference[/I], which pegs her debut as [I]after[/I] graduation (so at least 20), which would fit with the reference you provided above.)
Pre-Flashpoint as in Post-Crisis? Because those ages were a bit wonky. Pre-Crisis, Barbara would have to be 25 to be a Congresswoman, while Dick was still stated to be around 18 or 19.
Bronze age Bruce is 28 (To Kill a Legend) Babs is 25 (Batman family issues as congresswoman with Dick sometimes visiting to help with his girlfriend Lori, both still attending Hudson) and Dick is 18 (Left for Hudson before those two stories).
Those are the confirmed ones and when. I don't know how long time passes between those three stories but I'm not gonna spend time thinking that far.
[QUOTE=Digifiend;4982493]Yeah, Dick only turned 20 during New Teen Titans in the 80s. He started that series aged 19. Dick and Babs only became the same age in New 52, when both were deaged to 21.[/QUOTE]
Dicks 21? So what is Jason 19? And then Tim is 17 and Damian 13? Jason hangs out in bars so often I assumed he was older
In my headcanon Dick is around 12 when he first becomes Robin and 17 or 18 when he first becomes Nightwing, and many events that take place during Dixon’s run in particular give me the impression that Dick is either very mature for his age or at least into his 20s. So I’d say he’s around 24-25 now with Barbara a year older and Jason is a little bit younger. Tim is in his late teens. Bruce is in his early 40s. This is all how I make sense of it but everyone has their own way.
[QUOTE=Rac7d*;4983094]Dicks 21? So what is Jason 19? And then Tim is 17 and Damian 13? Jason hangs out in bars so often I assumed he was older[/QUOTE]
Jason is presumed 19 but I don't remember if it's mentioned anywhere. Tim's 16. Damian's 10.
To quote Jason when he wants to take Tim to a bar "It's Gotham, Tim, I can find you a place"
Damian jumped to 13 at the start of Rebirth.
[QUOTE=Rac7d*;4983094]Dicks 21? So what is Jason 19? And then Tim is 17 and Damian 13? Jason hangs out in bars so often I assumed he was older[/QUOTE]
Well, at this point who knows? Rebirth continuity hasn't actually touched on ages, for the most part. But in the New52 yeah, Dick was 21 or 22 or so. Tim was 16. Damian turned 13. Beyond that I don't know if anyone had their age established.
Tim was said to be 16 in Rebirth's 'Tec run as well.
I think at this point it's best to just forget ages; it didn't make sense in New52 continuity and it makes less sense in the current continuity, which is still half N52 and half "post-Crisis' second cousin."
In my head, Dick is in his late 20's (26-28), Babs in her early-ish 30's (33-35), Jason in his mid 20's (23-25), Tim his very early 20's (21-22), and Damian's 13, with Bruce being in his early-mid 40's (41-44).
[QUOTE=Ascended;4983127]
In my head, Dick is in his late 20's (26-28), Babs in her early-ish 30's (33-35), Jason in his mid 20's (23-25), Tim his very early 20's (21-22), and Damian's 13, with Bruce being in his early-mid 40's (41-44).[/QUOTE]
That's about where I'm at too. My head canon doesn't have Jason much younger than Dick at all.. 2 years maybe.. both of them on the older end of these ranges.
In my head, I like to use canon as much as I can so the baseline guideline are these
Bruce and Dick, however old they were when each of their parents died it has to be the same for pretty parallel reasons. So if Bruce was 8, Dick was 8, Bruce 10 Dick 10 Bruce 12 Dick 12.
Dick moved to Hudson at 18, but when exactly he becomes Nightwing is debatable
Damian was 10 when he met the Bat-family, after that whatever.
Everything else is flexible. I'm gonna have to actually read everything first in order to fit everything.
This is off topic and late ......
IGN's Top 25 Heroes of DC Comics for 2019
Nightwing is in at no 5
[url]https://www.ign.com/articles/the-top-25-heroes-of-dc-comics[/url]
Well, whenever Dick is truly back, and himself, I still believe the ticket to the Adult Table for him is Justice League membership. It’s ludicrous he’s not been there for years...and he led a sanctioned replacement League. Bruce could step away a bit, and still be in 47 other monthly comics. Nightwing is NOT Batman light... he’s more like Batman perfected...those rough edges gone. He has Clark’s compassion and heart, and Bruce’s skill set. This could be his time.
[QUOTE=bearman;4983486]Well, whenever Dick is truly back, and himself, I still believe the ticket to the Adult Table for him is Justice League membership. It’s ludicrous he’s not been there for years...and he led a sanctioned replacement League. Bruce could step away a bit, and still be in 47 other monthly comics. Nightwing is NOT Batman light... he’s more like Batman perfected...those rough edges gone. He has Clark’s compassion and heart, and Bruce’s skill set. This could be his time.[/QUOTE]
Yep I completely agree. Dick is not a copy of Batman but something more, and he carries the greatest aspects of Batman with him.
I get emotional when I think about it but he is really one of the greatest comic book characters ever. Robin was part of the foundation for sidekick archetypes and not only that he’s a sidekick who became his own hero. It is incredible to me that he exists. He’s also a character that can fit with any tone and be in large or small scale stories and never seem out of place (unless a writer doesn’t know what to do with him) . It’s about time he became more of a front and center character. I tend to view the DC universe through his eyes, and out of everyone he would be the absolute coolest character to ever hang out with.
[QUOTE=bearman;4983486]Well, whenever Dick is truly back, and himself, I still believe the ticket to the Adult Table for him is Justice League membership. It’s ludicrous he’s not been there for years...and he led a sanctioned replacement League. Bruce could step away a bit, and still be in 47 other monthly comics. Nightwing is NOT Batman light... he’s more like Batman perfected...those rough edges gone. He has Clark’s compassion and heart, and Bruce’s skill set. This could be his time.[/QUOTE]Well one of the ways nightwing can stop being viewed as batman lite would be something like Nightwing leader or agent of spyral or checkmate. Nightwing in bludhaven is just batman lite im sorry.
Bludhaven, as it is, is the same as the JL would be. Nightwing emulating the Batman and the Batman formula. Bludhaven is just spectacularly less impressive then the JL. JL at least comes with bragging rights, but beyond that I don’t see it doing much for Dick.
[QUOTE=Restingvoice;4983203]In my head, I like to use canon as much as I can [/QUOTE]
I do too, but at this point it's kind of impossible to say, outside of a few exceptions like Tim and Damian. We're still technically in New52 continuity but only partially and....who the hell knows?