If Haley Circus can be saved with retcon how would you want it to be written?
I mean Diana went from being the same age in the beginning to being oldest of the trinity. So it’s not impossible for them to be retcon out of
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If Haley Circus can be saved with retcon how would you want it to be written?
I mean Diana went from being the same age in the beginning to being oldest of the trinity. So it’s not impossible for them to be retcon out of
[QUOTE=Godlike13;4865596]
The Haley’s thing from the New 52 was a weird Court plot, yet nevertheless important to the Court’s mythology. It’s not something I see them undoing as they seem to value the Court. It’s also their lazy go to with Dick.[/QUOTE]
No, I don't expect DC to erase this. And I generally follow the "move forward, don't regress" mindset. I'm against reboots on principal (despite DC not agreeing with me).
But the thing with Haly's? The only character at the circus that really, ultimately mattered is Haly. He's been part of Dick's story from the start, and you could say that he's one of the only long-standing supporting cast members that is truly Dick's, and not tied to another character. And he's dead! Except (if you wanted to change it without a reboot), that wasn't really Haly! It was a clone the Court grew to manipulate Dick! And the real Haly has been held in a safe house ever since, and once Dick eventually rescues him, Haly re-opens the circus! There, problem solved and it doesn't change the events of the continuity. Does it make sense? No. Is it a weird, dumb idea? Absolutely. But the Court worship a bat demon and have enacted some really stupid plots in the past, so this fits right in.
Haly and the circus could be brought back easily with a simple "you thought you knew, but what *really* happened was....." thing. I don't generally like that kind of revisionism but it *can* be used to positive effect. And getting Haly back would be a net gain.
As long as the Court still exists, it would loom over even that ridiculousness. Not to mention the more ridiculous hoops they jump through, the more ridiculous Haley’s would become. Further changing it in ridiculous ways. The Court fundamentally corrupts Haley’s. It can’t be looked at as it was as long as the Court exists.
It doesn't have to be looked at as it was though.
Dick grew up thinking of the circus as a safe place where his happiest years were. The fact that he later finds out it wasn't as perfect as he thought isn't a big thing. How many of us grow up and find out our hometowns weren't as idyllic as we thought? That sounds like story potential to me more than it sounds like a negative thing.
Is it convoluted? Sure, but no more than anything else. Dick found out the Court used to recruit from the circus. Then he thought Haly died. He finds out later it wasn't really Haly, and Haly re-opens the circus. It's not complex.
I'm not saying it's what *should* happen. I'm just saying it'd be viable. Maybe not what you'd like to read personally but not a narrative dead end. Hell, Ric still not having his memories has more plot holes than this. :p
I mean a if not the circus whatever route? I mean if we place him as a actor would that make sense? If he likes to help others in careers?
[QUOTE=Godlike13;4865596]There is no point in going backwards, trying “fix” the character old pitfalls. That has proven to just be an excuse for the current Bat office to get away with being lazy. They fix Nightwing by moving on to trying new pastures. With fresh creators and new ideas. [/QUOTE]
Not when they keep making the same mistakes with these new ideas. I can’t see what’s your point. All the other characters have their issues fix and they are better for it. Diana was the worst of them all. They been a lot careful with her. Going back to her actually history and not doing the same mistakes.
[QUOTE=Godlike13;4865968]As long as the Court still exists, it would loom over even that ridiculousness. Not to mention the more ridiculous hoops they jump through, the more ridiculous Haley’s would become. Further changing it in ridiculous ways. The Court fundamentally corrupts Haley’s. It can’t be looked at as it was as long as the Court exists.[/QUOTE]
Thats... well, quite uncreative in my opinion. All it takes would be for Mr Haly, Dick's Mr Haly, to be the first one to stand up to the court, to say, "No. I'm not going on with this, you can't have him." That actually makes his connection with Dick even stronger.
[QUOTE=dropkickjake;4866515]Thats... well, quite uncreative in my opinion. All it takes would be for Mr Haly, Dick's Mr Haly, to be the first one to stand up to the court, to say, "No. I'm not going on with this, you can't have him." That actually makes his connection with Dick even stronger.[/QUOTE]
Dick can also figure ways to take down the court at least in Haley's. Your acting like comic writers hasn't saved terrible character storylines or other things. So why can't it happen with Nightwing? SUperman just had his parents come back. Everything gets retcon.
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4866758]Dick can also figure ways to take down the court at least in Haley's. Your acting like comic writers hasn't saved terrible character storylines or other things. So why can't it happen with Nightwing? SUperman just had his parents come back. Everything gets retcon.[/QUOTE]I think what godlike is saying is that DC will choose the court of owls over haley's so they won't let a retcon happen.
Haly’s being a breeding ground for the Court roots before even Dick’s Haly. Dick’s home is responsible for countless zombie assassins. His great grandfather is the face of them. It’s not a good and happy place anymore. Saying it’s not perfect is a huge understatement.
So any Haly reopening a circus that did horrible things, and existed to feed monsters, is more complex then the Haly’s he knew didn’t really die. Or him saying it wasn’t me. Its corruption goes beyond just Dick’s Haly. As long a Court exists, Haly’s circus’ role in the Court is not something easily brushed off. Nor is something DC would brush off. Hell modern day circuses can’t even brush off their cruelty to animals.
[QUOTE=WonderNight;4866898]I think what godlike is saying is that DC will choose the court of owls over haley's so the won't let a retcon happen.[/QUOTE]
Exactly.
[QUOTE=Godlike13;4867089]Haly’s being a breeding ground for the Court roots before even Dick’s Haly. Dick’s home is responsible for countless zombie assassins. His great grandfather is the face of them. It’s not a good and happy place anymore. Saying it’s not perfect is a huge understatement.
So any Haly reopening a circus that did horrible things, and existed to feed monsters, is more complex then the Haly’s he knew didn’t really die. Or him saying it wasn’t me. Its corruption goes beyond just Dick’s Haly. As long a Court exists, Haly’s circus’ role in the Court is not something easily brushed off. Nor is something DC would brush off. Hell modern day circuses can’t even brush off their cruelty to animals.
Exactly.[/QUOTE]
Really think this is far too simplistic man. I think that Mr. Haly being the first in a long line to ringleaders to refuse to play along with the court strengthens his character, preserves Dick "safe" home, and still allows the Court to exist and have used Haly's as a recruiting ground for a long, long time. To your point that DC will keep the Owls over Haly's, I'll agree, but I think DC cares very little for the Haly's aspect of it because that was tied so closely to Dick rather than Bruce. They could lose that aspect and DC wouldn't even blink.
To your point about actual circuses and animal cruelty... That just shows that comics are clearly different operate under a different set of rules than real life.
Eeh, fair enough.
[QUOTE=Godlike13;4867089]Haly’s being a breeding ground for the Court roots before even Dick’s Haly. Dick’s home is responsible for countless zombie assassins. His great grandfather is the face of them. It’s not a good and happy place anymore. Saying it’s not perfect is a huge understatement.
So any Haly reopening a circus that did horrible things, and existed to feed monsters, is more complex then the Haly’s he knew didn’t really die. Or him saying it wasn’t me. Its corruption goes beyond just Dick’s Haly. As long a Court exists, Haly’s circus’ role in the Court is not something easily brushed off. Nor is something DC would brush off. Hell modern day circuses can’t even brush off their cruelty to animals. [/QUOTE]
I get what you're saying. I just don't see it as a deal breaker. Haly himself can be redeemed without actually changing any past events, and the rest of the circus crew is either dead or non-entities who don't matter (I don't think any of the New52 performers were around when the Graysons were flying). Haly can tell the Court, if they even approach him again (at this point would they see the same value in the circus, especially when their involvement is known?), to sod off. Write him as a victim instead of an accomplice. The Court's previous involvement with the circus, as well as Haly's refusal to work with them, can be a source of narratives and give Dick something to chew on as he reconciles his childhood memories to the reality he discovers as an adult.
The circus isn't a hill I'd die on. Dick's done okay by himself all these years without that being a factor and can continue to do okay. But at the same time, it's one of the few things Dick has that is truly his, baked into his origins. And I can't think of a viable reason to not use it, in some shape or form (not necessarily exactly as it was). How much of Dick's world actually belongs to him, and wasn't handed down by someone else? Even the name came from Clark. The closest things he has to a nemesis all come from Batman. His closest friends come from the Titans. Haly and the circus are one of the few things that has remained a part of Dick's story throughout the years and adaptations and one of the only concepts that didn't come from somewhere else. Seriously, why wouldn't you want to utilize that? Just because the New52 stuff adds a Court shaped complication? That's an opportunity, not a detriment, in my mind.
Obviosuly YMMV, and that's cool, but even if the New52 didn't do great things with the circus I think it'd benefit Dick a lot to use it; the guy needs more stuff that is his, and his alone.
All of the Robins get their best friends from outside of the Bat family, not just Dick. Dick's are Wally and Donna. Jason's seems to be Roy (RIP), who was also Dick's friend. Tim's are Conner and Bart, and Damian has Jon. Being a bat is a lonely job. Being a Titan, Outlaw, or Young Justice member, or Super Son counteracts that.
As for the circus thing, unfortunately it's a telltale sign that Dick was first created 80 years ago. No way would someone created now be a circus kid - they're a lot less commonplace.
[QUOTE=Digifiend;4868354]All of the Robins get their best friends from outside of the Bat family, not just Dick. Dick's are Wally and Donna. Jason's seems to be Roy (RIP), who was also Dick's friend. Tim's are Conner and Bart, and Damian has Jon. Being a bat is a lonely job. Being a Titan, Outlaw, or Young Justice member, or Super Son counteracts that.
As for the circus thing, unfortunately it's a telltale sign that Dick was first created 80 years ago. No way would someone created now be a circus kid - they're a lot less commonplace.[/QUOTE]
Well if they allow dick to age it can be retained, I was time drakes age last time I saw the circus, in the future he might just be gymnast
Circus kids were never common place. As an orgin I think it still works fine, as a direction for him as an adult. Not so much.
Yeah, you don't see a circus like you used to. But there's still plenty of stuff that's pretty close. You still have county fairs and the more elegant stuff like cirque du soleil. I think we can still say that Haly's was one of the last active, old school circuses when Dick was a kid....but realistically it might be too late for that, even. But if/when a future update or reboot wants to mix it up there's still options out there that get the job done.
And if people in the DCU still read newspapers and fly in blimps, maybe they still go to the circus too?
I still see small circuses from time to time pop up.
[QUOTE=dropkickjake;4867353]Really think this is far too simplistic man. I think that Mr. Haly being the first in a long line to ringleaders to refuse to play along with the court strengthens his character, preserves Dick "safe" home, and still allows the Court to exist and have used Haly's as a recruiting ground for a long, long time. To your point that DC will keep the Owls over Haly's, I'll agree, but I think DC cares very little for the Haly's aspect of it because that was tied so closely to Dick rather than Bruce. They could lose that aspect and DC wouldn't even blink.
[/QUOTE]
C.C. Haly didn't refuse to hand Dick to The Court, Bruce just got there first, and Haly had to settle with handing their second best. He only regretted it, as far as we know, in his old age, as the not-Talon went after him, so he decided to hand Dick the Circus as a confession and apology
[QUOTE=Godlike13;4868941]Circus kids were never common place. As an orgin I think it still works fine, as a direction for him as an adult. Not so much.[/QUOTE]
A valid point.
Hey what do you guys think of the new character punchline becoming dick's "Joker". I looked at interviews talking about her character, she contrast nightwing in the same way joker does batman. Plus she already seems a breakout star (with both her debut selling out).
Oh for grayson fans dr.netz is back.
Dick's "Joker" being a Joker lackey isn't something I would be interested in. Though in general I'm not fond of the idea of trying to force Dick to have his own "Joker" as it feels contrived to me. It feels like her character is set up to be more of a adversary of Harley Quinn too anyway.
Have you heard about the Nightwing spin off to be set in the Murphyverse? I think this could be interesting.
[QUOTE=Badou;4869392]Dick's "Joker" being a Joker lackey isn't something I would be interested in. Though in general I'm not fond of the idea of trying to force Dick to have his own "Joker" as it feels contrived to me. It feels like her character is set up to be more of a adversary of Harley Quinn too anyway.[/QUOTE]I mainly agree but since dc want's him in the batman lite role so bad they mine as well go full stop. Dick currently is the " batman of bludhaven" so why not a joker (and robin).
[QUOTE=Restingvoice;4869043]C.C. Haly didn't refuse to hand Dick to The Court, Bruce just got there first, and Haly had to settle with handing their second best. He only regretted it, as far as we know, in his old age, as the not-Talon went after him, so he decided to hand Dick the Circus as a confession and apology[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I was talking about potential for a retcon there.
[QUOTE=WonderNight;4869506]I mainly agree but since dc want's him in the batman lite role so bad they mine as well go full stop. Dick currently is the " batman of bludhaven" so why not a joker (and robin).[/QUOTE]
Yeah this is all just terrible though. Dick needing to be Batman Lite: Bad. It only gets worse as you try to make everything in his life a knockoff version of something Bruce has.
[QUOTE=Badou;4869392]Dick's "Joker" being a Joker lackey isn't something I would be interested in. Though in general I'm not fond of the idea of trying to force Dick to have his own "Joker" as it feels contrived to me. It feels like her character is set up to be more of a adversary of Harley Quinn too anyway.[/QUOTE]
Agreed with this entirely.
[QUOTE=Godlike13;4868941]Circus kids were never common place. As an orgin I think it still works fine, as a direction for him as an adult. Not so much.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I'm not a fan of him joining the circus, honestly. It was alright for one story arc under Higgins where dick owned the thing and traveled with it, but as a long term direction I'm not a fan. Much more a fan of him opening a casino in Bludhaven or Amusement Mile in Gotham.
[QUOTE=Badou;4869392]Dick's "Joker" being a Joker lackey isn't something I would be interested in. Though in general I'm not fond of the idea of trying to force Dick to have his own "Joker" as it feels contrived to me. It feels like her character is set up to be more of a adversary of Harley Quinn too anyway.[/QUOTE]
I like Prank from the Chicago arc
[QUOTE=Rac7d*;4869609]I like Prank from the Chicago arc[/QUOTE]
He was a character editorial forced on Higgins. He didn't even want to use him if I remember correctly, and had other plans with an unused villain being a former sidekick of a Chicago hero and turn Tony Zucco into Dick's Joker.
[QUOTE=L.H.;4869431]Have you heard about the Nightwing spin off to be set in the Murphyverse? I think this could be interesting.[/QUOTE]
Haven't read any of Murphy's stuff but I'm always looking for quality Nightwing stories. If he did it, and it was good, great!
[QUOTE=WonderNight;4869186]Hey what do you guys think of the new character punchline becoming dick's "Joker". I looked at interviews talking about her character, she contrast nightwing in the same way joker does batman. Plus she already seems a breakout star (with both her debut selling out).
Oh for grayson fans dr.netz is back.[/QUOTE]
Awful idea.
The Joker is Batman's arch nemesis. The most serious of serious threats. The #1 bad guy in Gotham. Making Dick's nemesis equivalent his f*cking sidekick? How does that benefit Dick? I guess it's a grand idea if you think Nightwing is nothing more than a sidekick himself....
It'd be fine if he was still a Robin. The parallels are obviously there (and part of the reason I got such a kick out of Dick and Harley in that cartoon). But for someone who's supposed to be an independent, solo hero? I think it's actually a worse idea than Ric. Seriously, the idea of Punchline, or any Gotham villain sidekick, Dick's nemesis.....DC trying that might actually make me leave in disgust.
Besides, DC doesn't just decide who the nemesis is. That's not how it works. A nemesis evolves after years of continued use, acclaimed stories and cool moments, building a high profile and fan demand. Showing up in a popular adaptation doesn't hurt either. DC can push a villain, intending it to be Dick's nemesis, but they don't control all the variables.
I think Blockbuster is as close to a nemesis as Dick has. He's about the only villain who appears in the comics consistently. And I think Pyg is in the running, maybe, since he's appeared in Dick's book a few times; if that keeps up Pyg could steal the crown.
[QUOTE=Ascended;4870331]Haven't read any of Murphy's stuff but I'm always looking for quality Nightwing stories. If he did it, and it was good, great!
Awful idea.
The Joker is Batman's arch nemesis. The most serious of serious threats. The #1 bad guy in Gotham. Making Dick's nemesis equivalent his f*cking sidekick? How does that benefit Dick? I guess it's a grand idea if you think Nightwing is nothing more than a sidekick himself....
It'd be fine if he was still a Robin. The parallels are obviously there (and part of the reason I got such a kick out of Dick and Harley in that cartoon). But for someone who's supposed to be an independent, solo hero? I think it's actually a worse idea than Ric. Seriously, the idea of Punchline, or any Gotham villain sidekick, Dick's nemesis.....DC trying that might actually make me leave in disgust.
Besides, DC doesn't just decide who the nemesis is. That's not how it works. A nemesis evolves after years of continued use, acclaimed stories and cool moments, building a high profile and fan demand. Showing up in a popular adaptation doesn't hurt either. DC can push a villain, intending it to be Dick's nemesis, but they don't control all the variables.
I think Blockbuster is as close to a nemesis as Dick has. He's about the only villain who appears in the comics consistently. And I think Pyg is in the running, maybe, since he's appeared in Dick's book a few times; if that keeps up Pyg could steal the crown.[/QUOTE]oh well lol, guess you guys don't like it cool.
But no I'm not the one that views nightwing as a sidekick, DC does! How many batman posters with nightwing being just another face in a big crowd do fans need to see before they get that. DC views nightwing as just another Robin or batgirl to batman.
If I had my way nightwing would be in a different office and his solo would be a globetrotting espionage team up book with characters character like Wally, Donna and Superman teaming up.
I don't want batman lite but that's the box DC has put him in.
Nightwing is below sidekick even. The harsh reality is that even Punchline is above Nightwing in how DC views him. He’s nothing but a fodder character. They’ll use him to pad her status, but nothing more. Nightwing just exists to feed bottom of the charts creators they like having around. That is the purpose of the character and his title now. To just give guys like Lobdell and Jurgan’s something to do.
[QUOTE=WonderNight;4870393]oh well lol, guess you guys don't like it cool.
I don't want batman lite but that's the box DC has put him in.[/QUOTE]
Just to clarify, I have absolutely nothing against Dick fighting Punchline or Harley or any other villain's sidekick. There's potent story material there. I actually wish Dick would run into Harley more often, because they share that "former sidekick" thing. So yeah, by all means have Punchline or whoever show up.
Just don't decide that's gonna be Dick's big bad number 1 villain.
But DC absolutely thinks of Nightwing as nothing more than a sidekick, despite the fandom saying otherwise. So that's probably what they'll try.
EDIT: Oh, I didn't think *you* were saying this about Punchline being Dick's big bad, I meant a general "you" not you you specifically. Sorry if there was a miscommunication!
[QUOTE=Ascended;4870434]
EDIT: Oh, I didn't think *you* were saying this about Punchline being Dick's big bad, I meant a general "you" not you you specifically. Sorry if there was a miscommunication![/QUOTE] Oh your cool no problem, I just set in my shower crying for 3 hours. ;)
I have been wondering. What black label story could work for Dick? A what-if or a storyline you would like to see expanded on?
Okay no to the circus it's too outdated? What about simply being a tutor? There are still acrobats around? Or a dancer. I do think the entertainment industry is the choice for Dick. That or PI. I mean a stuntman can work for Dick.
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4870690]I have been wondering. What black label story could work for Dick? A what-if or a storyline you would like to see expanded on?
Okay no to the circus it's too outdated? What about simply being a tutor? There are still acrobats around? Or a dancer. I do think the entertainment industry is the choice for Dick. That or PI. I mean a stuntman can work for Dick.[/QUOTE]
I don't know about Black Label in particular, but I wouldn't mind Elseworlds where it focused on say, Dick's kids in some sort of shenanigans. Could be Mar'i and Jake, could be the Earth 2 son he had with Babs, could be Batman Beyond daughter... There's a lot of potential there.
[QUOTE=WonderNight;4870550]Oh your cool no problem, I just set in my shower crying for 3 hours. ;)[/QUOTE]
>phew!< I was afraid you were gonna take it personally. Glad we dodged that bullet! :p
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4870690]I have been wondering. What black label story could work for Dick? A what-if or a storyline you would like to see expanded on?[/QUOTE]
I'd think the most obvious choice would be a sexy, Bond style noir story. Not necessarily with Spyral, but along the "super spy" lines.
I'd like to see a retro pulp Nightwing set in the mid-late 40's. Just after the war perhaps.
I just want something epic! Nightwing was created as a titan not a bat solo so I believe dick as nightwing should be having more epic titan style story. That's one of the things that made Grayson work was having fun adventures all over the DCU.
Does anyone know if DC management actually reads this forum?
We have rabid Dick fans, who have felt unhappy and ignored for several years; we are all united in wanting more for Grayson.
But there doesn’t seem to be much response from the company.
I’m not sure DC management even knows about the internet.
[QUOTE=WonderNight;4870393]If I had my way nightwing would be in a different office and his solo would be a globetrotting espionage team up book with characters character like Wally, Donna and Superman teaming up.[/QUOTE]
Great idea! Maybe they could revive either [I]DC Comics Presents[/I] or [I]The Brave & the Bold[/I], and have Dick be the headliner. ;)
Ok small rent but I was reading the 5g threads and it's sad how so many fans see nightwing as a stepping stone to batman. Even a lot of fan has come to view nightwing as a sidekick.
It why I what nightwing out of the bat office so much. DC has turn nightwing back into robin in a lot of fans eyes.
It would be great to see nightwing develop into a main hero with his own mythos one day but right now he's just a support character and dick deserves better.
And the whole point of the Nightwing identity was to distance Dick from being seen as a sidekick.