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[QUOTE=Pohzee;4973553]It be ironic if Red Hood failed itself into the position that some fans here have wanted for Nightwing for ages[/QUOTE]
I'd be pretty pissed lol
[QUOTE=Restingvoice;4973557]It's just one issue and it's not like he's in character anyway
Also, I heard Lobdell's leaving to [B]write X-Men again[/B][/QUOTE]
Well good for Batman i guess, but the X-Men were doing really well lately so sucks for them.
If Snyder's doing a separate project rather than a new Nightwing #1, what do people think of Josh Williamson as a potential writer? He's coming off a well-received run on "Flash" where he's played well with editorial without hugely impacting the quality of the book, he's staying DC exclusive as is "big but not too big" at the moment if you see what I mean. He's got a good eye for building up a corner of the DCU.
Although, given he's talked about "not being done" with the Flash Family I wonder if he's not more likely to get a Wally and Dick's generation "Titans" relaunch.
Also, there are probably people who'll know more about this than me - who do I have to sweet-talk to get a nice, hardcover Omnibus of Seeley's "Nightwing" run? All the issues in the main run, with [I]Nightwing Vs Hush[/I] as a coda please and thank you.
I don't think Dick will be given the A list treatment because editorial hates him. He is the most popular character with constant bad stories. Wonder Woman too but they still treat her as an A list.
[QUOTE=qwazer07;4973640]I don't think Dick will be given the A list treatment because editorial hates him. He is the most popular character with constant bad stories. Wonder Woman too but they still treat her as an A list.[/QUOTE]
I think it would be better for the book to be the priority of up and coming talent than another pay check for an A-lister.
It is what gives me hope about what I have heard from the possible Snyder project.
[QUOTE=qwazer07;4973640]I don't think Dick will be given the A list treatment because editorial hates him. He is the most popular character with constant bad stories. Wonder Woman too but they still treat her as an A list.[/QUOTE]
Well the main source of editorial hate is gone now, so hopefully things are looking up a bit
[QUOTE=Rakiduam;4973660]I think it would be better for the book to be the priority of up and coming talent than another pay check for an A-lister.
It is what gives me hope about what I have heard from the possible Snyder project.[/QUOTE]
Sounds like the New 52 and Rebirth all over again. We never get the Moore, Lemire, Fraction, Hickman, etc. We only get lucky with Snyder and King because they were new. After a year or two, they were shipped to Batman. Life sucks.
[QUOTE=qwazer07;4973668]Sounds like the New 52 and Rebirth all over again. We never get the Moore, Lemire, Fraction, Hickman, etc. We only get lucky with Snyder and King because they were new. After a year or two, they were shipped to Batman. Life sucks.[/QUOTE]
Yeah. And even Snyder handle Dick when he was Batman, so I'm not sure it counts. After all, DC allows that A list writers handle when he was Batman.
As you say, if the new talent is good, they will probably ship this new talent to Batman at the end.
[QUOTE=Konja7;4973721]Yeah. And even Snyder handle Dick when he was Batman, so I'm not sure it counts. After all, DC allows that A list writers handle when he was Batman.
As you say, if the new talent is good, they will probably ship this new talent to Batman at the end.[/QUOTE]
I don't have hope of any kind. Better that way than be disappointed by DC again and again. I'm used to it.
Do we have any more info on Snyder's Grayson book yet?
[QUOTE=Ascended;4973932]Do we have any more info on Snyder's Grayson book yet?[/QUOTE]
Just that it can't come soon enough.
[QUOTE=Restingvoice;4973557]It's just one issue and it's not like he's in character anyway
Also, I heard Lobdell's leaving to write X-Men again[/QUOTE]
Actually, according to Bleeding Cool, Lobdell signed a 6 figure contract with Netflix for his Ball & Chain series.
[QUOTE=Jackalope89;4973986]Actually, according to Bleeding Cool, Lobdell signed a 6 figure contract with Netflix for his Ball & Chain series.[/QUOTE]
Good for him. Creator owned properties should always be supported since they promote more creativity. But.. a lot of his comics still suck. Not a fan.
Hickman will be on X-Men for a least another couple of years anyway, so Lobdell couldn't have been leaving for that.
[QUOTE=Claude;4973631]If Snyder's doing a separate project rather than a new Nightwing #1, what do people think of Josh Williamson as a potential writer?[/QUOTE]
I'd be willing to hear him out. His Flash hasn't totally blown me away or anything, but he's a quality talent and, as you said, he's "big but not too big" and seems capable of working around editorial without letting it derail him. He's worked well within the framework of the Flash mythos and built upon what was there in a fairly logical way.
It all depends on what a writer would want to do and where they'd want to take the character, as well as what editorial will [I]allow [/I]them to do. Right now, nobody gets a free pass (from me) just on the merit of name recognition. Dick's been too abused in recent years; not only do we need quality story telling, we also need some damage control and TLC to repair what has been done.
I'd be very willing to see what Williamson would want to do, but whether I'd support him on Nightwing would depend on what kind of Nightwing we get from him. But of all the various writers who might theoretically get the gig, Williamson seems like maybe one of the better options.
I feel like the artist/s needs serious consideration too. Dick's such a visual character, and I feel like after everything we've been through the last few years with Nightwing, the title has to look better than usual if DC wants to start earning some trust back. Depending on the kind of story and approach the writer goes for, I'd think someone like Jorge Jimenez or Dan Mora would be good, but I dunno if DC would let Jorge do Nightwing (he's becoming too big a deal I think, after JL) but Mora might be on the right "big but not too big" level.
I’d take Williamson for Nightwing. He’s generally a fun writer who knows how to play with the bigger parts of the DC universe. Not to mention he’s already writing Batman over in Batman/Superman, which I enjoyed, so I think he could make for a good Nightwing writer.
For all of you what are the most important parts of Dick Grayson's history?
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4974531]For all of you what are the most important parts of Dick Grayson's history?[/QUOTE]
-circus kid
-first robin
-has been bruce's partner since his early days
-founded the titans
-was inspired by superman to become nightwing
-at some point, became batman
-his name is dick grayson
if a writer took everything away from Dick but made sure those core aspects of his history remained, i wouldn't be too upset
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4974531]For all of you what are the most important parts of Dick Grayson's history?[/QUOTE]
Hmm. Just in the broad strokes, and not giving this a ton of thought.....
Origin, death in the family (the fallout, anyway; I feel like this played a big part in the Dick-Bruce split), formation of the NTT, origin of Nightwing, almost-marriage to Kori, moving to Bludhaven (the first time), DickBats version 2, Spyral.
Sorry. I mean if they were to reboot Nightwing. What should stay and what should be thrown out. I think we can all agree about Rick. Like should Bludhaven be destroyed?
Bludhaven can be cut out, which is part of its problem. They continue to fail to make it a genuinely important to the character.
Seeley tried to rebuild it as something more unique, while acknowledging that there is nothing inherently there that grounds Dick to it, and so understood that this was something that they would have to built over time. Unfortunately the lazy creators who took over his book ignored that and just pretended it was. Insulting readers as if they don't know it hasn't just become this island they have chosen to maroon him on. Bludhaven now needs Nightwing, even though prior to Ric Nightwing was a new comer Bludhaven didn't want. It now also lack any resemblance to the Bludhaven in the beginning of the series, and fell back into the generic Gotham-lite of old. Proving Bludhaven to be nothing but a trap for lazy creators to more easily jump in and churn out traditional lazy stories with the same tired formulas that worked for other characters.
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4974569]Sorry. I mean if they were to reboot Nightwing. What should stay and what should be thrown out. I think we can all agree about Rick. Like should Bludhaven be destroyed?[/QUOTE]
Oh, I gotcha.
My list remains the same. I don't believe in reboots. They only ever cause problems, they are (almost) never the solution.
I would really think Bludhaven and Nightwing can work if done well. Almost any good writer can turn a dumb idea good. For example, Bludhaven can easily be an entertainment city. They have good movie studios there and a few other things going on. Nightwing does still help the city but if he has to leave the city will not burn. If we had to give him a job the easiest thing is a Private I or stunt man? I mean if we can use the Circus might as well find a job that allows him to travel. I mean if we can't have him living off him being a hero. Might as well made him use his other skills. I mean Bruce, JL, or the Wayne industry shouldn't be paying. Then again maybe the whole Job thing doesn't have to be known. I mean with the Private I thing is how does Dick get to be in contact with the police? Unless he was a cop but got fired for busting corrupted cops
It’s not that Bludhaven can’t work, but making Bludhaven work, truly work, requires more commitment and consistency then those managing the book are willing to put in. Rather then to truly provide the character with a unique and interesting setting creators can fill, as it is the point of Bludhaven is to just facilitate laziness.
Right now the laziness traps need to go, cause the people on the book have proven themselves to have very little professional integrity. They do not care if they are even producing a decent book, let alone a good one. So any excuse to be lazy they abuse. Dick needs those traps stripped away so that the people behind his book are forced to have to actually do their job with more consideration and effort. Grayson for example did that.
Bludhaven is whatever to me. What the book needs is a great creative team and a supporting editorial team. Love interest. Location. Job. All of these will come after. With enough talent anything could work.
I've got no problem with reboots perse, but I'm not a fan of trying to make things fit into neat little timelines.
In any case, I think the essentials for Dick are:
[LIST]Circus origin
Robin at a young age
NTT
Batman Reborn Era
Grayson[/LIST]
For me, everything else can be either thrown out or heavily reconceptualized. Heck... there are certain things I might reconceptualize even among that list. Dick motives for infiltrating spyral, for example. I'd throw out the Forever Evil/Batman sending him on a mission in favor of Dick taking matters into his own hands.
[QUOTE=Ascended;4974551]Hmm. Just in the broad strokes, and not giving this a ton of thought.....
Origin, death in the family (the fallout, anyway; I feel like this played a big part in the Dick-Bruce split), formation of the NTT, origin of Nightwing, almost-marriage to Kori, moving to Bludhaven (the first time), DickBats version 2, Spyral.[/QUOTE]
[center]I very much agree with this. And if it's not a bother, I would also like to add a personal favorite...
[SIZE=3][B][I]Batman: Prodigal[/I][/B][/SIZE]
[img]https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/scale_medium/6/64770/1396069-batman_prodigal_01.jpg[/img][/center]
[QUOTE=K7P5V;4974901][center]I very much agree with this. And if it's not a bother, I would also like to add a personal favorite...
[SIZE=3][B][I]Batman: Prodigal[/I][/B][/SIZE][/QUOTE]
I almost included this too, actually. :D It seems like this is when Dick and Bruce's relationship started to be mended after years of strife.
I didn't include it on my list mostly because I feel like Bruce sending Dick to Bludhaven was the real turning point. Prodigal felt like a father asking his son to mind the store while the old man ran to the bank, while Bludhaven was a much bigger show of trust and respect (and they still didn't get along until well after Dick had decided to stay there).
But I definitely agree Prodigal could be considered a milestone in Dick's history.
As far as reboots go.....if you're gonna reboot a character, then you shouldn't do what previous versions did, otherwise the reboot is even more stupid and pointless than reboots are in the first place. So about the only thing you need is "Dick becomes Robin" "Dick becomes a Titan" and "Dick becomes Nightwing" and that's it. The stuff I listed is what I figure are essential moments in Dick's life that have contributed to who he is and how we understand him as a character....but if you reboot him? None of it matters; it's a fresh start.
So I guess I should have said what would you want a retcon than a reboot.
[QUOTE=Ascended;4975049]I almost included this too, actually. :D It seems like this is when Dick and Bruce's relationship started to be mended after years of strife.
I didn't include it on my list mostly because I feel like Bruce sending Dick to Bludhaven was the real turning point. Prodigal felt like a father asking his son to mind the store while the old man ran to the bank, while Bludhaven was a much bigger show of trust and respect (and they still didn't get along until well after Dick had decided to stay there).[/QUOTE]
Can't argue with that, actually. Chuck Dixon deserves major props for his run on Bludhaven.
[QUOTE=Ascended;4975049]But I definitely agree Prodigal could be considered a milestone in Dick's history.[/QUOTE]
Thanks. Your response means a lot. :D
[QUOTE=Ascended;4975049]As far as reboots go.....if you're gonna reboot a character, then you shouldn't do what previous versions did, otherwise the reboot is even more stupid and pointless than reboots are in the first place. So about the only thing you need is "Dick becomes Robin" "Dick becomes a Titan" and "Dick becomes Nightwing" and that's it. The stuff I listed is what I figure are essential moments in Dick's life that have contributed to who he is and how we understand him as a character....but if you reboot him? None of it matters; it's a fresh start.[/QUOTE]
LOL! I totally get it.
As you said, Dick's history rests on a solid foundation. A good creative team can build upon that if they're willing to put their minds to it. ;)
If I was to reboot Nightwing (not dick) I'd just lay down the core ground work.
1) location- I'd prefer nightwing globetrotting but I get DC what's bludhaven so I'd go with that. Bludhaven should be the metropolis of entertainment, full of casinos, resorts, nightclubs ect. It has so much potential. It could have the world's biggest Tokyo town district full of Japanese culture like anime, video games and restaurants. It could have it's own MSG of all the big live events. A famous beach like miami. Just so much potential to have something unique to nightwing.
2)Career- The new and improved Halys circus. Dick own the circus and rebuilds it for his family legacy and for the poor and youth of bludhaven to have jobs. This fit the new bludhaven with the vegas look.
3)DCU- If dick can't go out into the DCU than bring it to him! Tourists, drug, weapons and meta human trafficking ect. Have other heroes and characters live there also like with Gotham (sideways, black canary) and metropolis (black lightning, traci 13) characters that fits the new bludhaven like Zatanna, Vixen, deadman, the royal flush gang and with his speed wally stops by to hang with his best bro.
This would be a good foundation for nightwing.
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4975071]So I guess I should have said what would you want a retcon than a reboot.[/QUOTE]
Well, I'd like to mess with the Court of Owls and their connection to Haly's. I don't really mind that the Court recruited from the circus, and it does make a kind of sense in that these are skilled athletes with little to lose and nobody to miss them, but I'd like to spin it so Haly himself isn't as culpable as I think he was in the original story (but I haven't read any of that in a long time so I may be remembering it wrong). And Dick would've just been one of the performers the Court was keeping an eye on for future recruitment, none of this "grand prophesy of the Gray Son" nonsense. Dick is special enough without the story making him into some sort of golden child. Though I think that was more Dick's granddaddy Cobb more than anything? Where's Dropkick to refresh my memory when I need him? :D
Beyond that, I really don't think there's anything we need to retcon, just some stuff we should ignore, never mention again, and pretend didn't happen. Like Ric.
Especially Ric.
[QUOTE=K7P5V;4975092]
Thanks. Your response means a lot. :D[/QUOTE]
Ha! Thanks, but I'm just a jackass, stuck inside during a pandemic, on the internet. :p
And I agree with WonderNight about pretty much everything he/she said. Though if I had it my way, Dick would most definitely be a globe trotting hero. He can live in Bludhaven and the city should have that Vegas vibe, and Dick can own a renewed Haly's, but I really like that traveling element to Dick.
This could easily have Dick breaking down the court of owls hold the Cirus. Also, do the Court of Owls do crimes? So if this is the case Dick can easily go and invested each crime-stopping them. I'm curious with what Dc has given us so far Babs, Kori and now Zatanna. So should Dick dick Zatanna has a new change or just stay within the family
Milestones for Dick Grayson?
*Origin (orphaned ten year-old acrobat)
*Robin Year One (complete with his savage beating at the hands of Two Face, cementing his hatred of him)
*The longest tenure of any Robin/World's Finest (before the Justice League forms)
*Forming the Fab Five Teen Titans/DickBabs happening as they become teens
*Forming the New Teen Titans/Friction with Bruce
*Giving up Robin and taking on Nightwing
*Almost marrying Kori.
*Prodigal
*Bludhaven
*DickBats
*Agent 37
*Returning to Nightwing
And that's more or less it. Obviously I'm omitting stuff like nearly killing The Joker for good in Last Laugh, taking a bullet for Bruce in Infinite Crisis and the like, but if I were making a "Nightwing 101" video, this is probably what I'd cover.
You ignore Ric, and while I could take a dig at it, ultimately it's because it doesn't matter for him as a character. Look at Superman Blue. It's a moment we remember for being silly, but in the greater tapestry of Superman's history, it actually doesn't come into play much outside of a reference here or there, but if you had to truncate Superman's life into a six issue mini, I imagine it gets cut very early. Likewise, Ric is an editorial mandate to spin plates and devalue an IP. Yeah, we hate it, but it's going to just be forgotten save for the butt of a joke, a la Jared Stevens as [B]FATE[/B].
I guess I did take a dig at it. Whoops. I regret nothing.
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4975435]This could easily have Dick breaking down the court of owls hold the Cirus. Also, do the Court of Owls do crimes? So if this is the case Dick can easily go and invested each crime-stopping them. I'm curious with what Dc has given us so far Babs, Kori and now Zatanna. So should Dick dick Zatanna has a new change or just stay within the family[/QUOTE]Yes I do ship Dick and zatanna and they fit better in my mind but that's not why I what zatanna, vixen and someothers in a vegas bludhaven.
It's also so character like nightwing, zatanna, vixen ect can help each other out. Nightwing needs a recurring cast of faces that matters and can stay form creator to creator and stronger ties to the DCU outside if batman.
Those other characters are only in teambooks or limbo. Them in bludhaven could give them a semi home book. Something to do outside of team books like zatanna being one of dick's Haly circus star performer's, or vixen stopping by for a fashion show, lex and bruce stopping by for some billionaire gambling or lois and Clark to cover a big POV event.
This way these characters don't have to spin time set'in in limbo waiting on a new teambook and dick has his recurring cast and nightwing and bludhaven are more connected to the DCU. This is a shared universe right.
How does Vixen fit in Nightwing's world?
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4975869]How does Vixen fit in Nightwing's world?[/QUOTE]
They interact as fellow Justice League candidates and members but that's about as much as I know
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4975435]This could easily have Dick breaking down the court of owls hold the Cirus. Also, do the Court of Owls do crimes? So if this is the case Dick can easily go and invested each crime-stopping them. I'm curious about what Dc has given us so far Babs, Kori, and now Zatanna. So should Dick dick Zatanna has a new change or just stay within the family[/QUOTE]
The Court's hold on the circus already broken the moment Dick inherited it, and even after the Circus left Dick, none of the current generations of members know about Haly's dealing with The Court.
The Court still kidnaps children, commit political murder, and human trafficking. The first arc of Nightwing Rebirth was crime-stopping them and it's one of the better arcs.
Zatanna in the comic canon was Bruce's childhood love interest. They're around the same age range. I'd personally avoid sharing women between father and son.
[QUOTE=WonderNight;4975100]If I was to reboot Nightwing (not dick) I'd just lay down the core ground work.
1) location- I'd prefer nightwing globetrotting but I get DC what's bludhaven so I'd go with that. Bludhaven should be the metropolis of entertainment, full of casinos, resorts, nightclubs ect. It has so much potential. It could have the world's biggest Tokyo town district full of Japanese culture like anime, video games and restaurants. It could have it's own MSG of all the big live events. A famous beach like miami. Just so much potential to have something unique to nightwing.
2)Career- The new and improved Halys circus. Dick own the circus and rebuilds it for his family legacy and for the poor and youth of bludhaven to have jobs. This fit the new bludhaven with the vegas look.
3)DCU- If dick can't go out into the DCU than bring it to him! Tourists, drug, weapons and meta human trafficking ect. Have other heroes and characters live there also like with Gotham (sideways, black canary) and metropolis (black lightning, traci 13) characters that fits the new bludhaven like Zatanna, Vixen, deadman, the royal flush gang and with his speed wally stops by to hang with his best bro.
This would be a good foundation for nightwing.[/QUOTE]
I think I'd rather they update the circus concept in concert with Bludhaven's location - instead of a circus, something like a family entertainment plaza/arcade. You'd still have the Haly's repertoire - animal shows, feats of daring, magic acts, etc., but more like a Vegas casino with Sigfried & Roy and Cirque du Soleil both under the same roof. It can still be named after Haly and keep Dick close to his roots, but if he's running one of the entertainment companies in Bludhaven, he'd be in the middle of the action: thwarting plots against his business, getting leaned on for protection money, overhearing schemes at the bar, etc. It's also good (as you say) for tying Dick into the rest of the DC Universe. Since some spies know and trust Dick, they might want to use Haly's as a meeting place with informants; Zatanna might want to perform there; it's certainly the kind of place Hal and Ollie might go to blow off steam (Jason and Roy whenever he comes back, too); and Young Justice or the Teen Titans might sneak out for a night on the town whenever.
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4975869]How does Vixen fit in Nightwing's world?[/QUOTE]
She actually an ally or Barbra
Eh? She wasn't a Bird of Prey, was she?