I'm still holding out hope Williamson will write Nightwing. It's clear DC has a relaunch on the way, I'd rather Jurgens not keep writing.
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I'm still holding out hope Williamson will write Nightwing. It's clear DC has a relaunch on the way, I'd rather Jurgens not keep writing.
[QUOTE=Claude;5054243]Presumably, this suggests Williamson will be spinning it off into a new "Titans" book rather than a Nightwing solo.
There are worse things in the world.[/QUOTE]
I mean I would add a character or two and remove Luthor, but I would honestly read a Titans or Justice League book with this line-up. I mean its Starfire, Nightwing, and Cyborg from the Titans, Kendra Saunders from the JSA, and you can decide whether or not to keep detective chimp. If you were to add characters like Jessica Cruz, Kyle Rayner, A flash (it could be Wally but maybe Jesse Quick), Supergirl, Miss Martian or others that come to mind and you can have a pretty good line-up on your hands.
Remember we speculated that Jurgens was going to keep writing Nightwing during 5G and bring over his Dick becomes mayor of Bludhaven story that he was writing in Batman Beyond. So even if 5G fell through it isn't a huge surprise that Jurgens would continue to write it if he wants to if the plan was to keep him on the book anyway for 5G.
[QUOTE=sifighter;5053838]It’s the assumption that since a bunch of other series are ending and series writers are finishing their last arcs with fillin stories taking place for those not ending that Death Metal is going to relaunch most if not all series with a new #1.[/QUOTE]
Okay, that's what I thought.
Yeah a relaunch seems likely after Metal 2 wraps up, but that's not the same thing as a straight cancellation. I think if DC was gonna drop Nightwing for good they'd have done it already. Clearly, despite Didio, *somebody* realized that no Nightwing on the stands is a mistake.
As for Jurgens staying on the book.....I dunno; sales have done nothing to justify keeping him and the reviews of the book do nothing but encourage DC to sweep the last couple years under the rug, bring in new creators, and never mention Ric or any of his writers again. I love Jurgens but he has done nothing on this book and should not remain; all that'll do is ensure sales don't bounce back to where they should be.
It's DC, so who the hell knows what they'll do; whatever it is it'll likely not be what the IP deserves. But I struggle to see them keeping anything from the Ric saga around, including creators. They do that, they might as well just cancel the book for real.
Remember 5G was the plan, and I doubt Nightwing had much of a place in that, but now they are scrambling to do something else. Nightwing sales are not good. Before they were being artificially inflated by Joker War they fell to Batman Beyond levels. At this point it’s existence is about Jurgens, not the character.
[QUOTE=Godlike13;5054636]Remember 5G was the plan, and I doubt Nightwing had much of a place in that, but now they are scrambling to do something else. Nightwing sales are not good. Before they were being artificially inflated by Joker War they fell to Batman Beyond levels. At this point it’s existence is about Jurgens, not the character.[/QUOTE]
Yeah. They need something to help the sales (and that's situation for comics in general).
I mean, a new #1 will increase the sales for a while, but it won't last.
Honestly, I'm not even sure a good quality story is enough to keep sales steady. Even Grayson had fallen to 30K at the end (and the fall seemed to continue).
I would like Dick and Damian working as team in a book, maybe that helps the stories and the sales.
[QUOTE=Drako;5053657][IMG]https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/BJocimVj3oB8Fr4Na9t9rU-650-80.jpg.webp[/IMG]
NIGHTWING #75
written by DAN JURGENS
art by TRAVIS MOORE and RONAN CLIQUET
cover by TRAVIS MOORE
variant cover by ALAN QUAH
ON SALE 10/20/20
$5.99 US | 48 PAGES | FC | DC
In the wake of "The Joker War," Nightwing is back—but is he back for good? And does he remember Bea? With the help of Batman, Batgirl, his Teen Titans friends, and even Alfred, Nightwing must decide for himself which path to take. Then, when KGBeast discovers Nightwing is still alive, his street credibility is on the line if he doesn't go to finish the job he started when he tried to kill Nightwing…and missed! Nightwing better watch his back is he wants to be back for good!
More Dan Jurgens... great...
[IMG]https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/rFAP8JQCAeKc9jXCwmahBV-650-80.jpg.webp[/IMG]
He is also in both Justice Leagues issues of October.
I guess we have to wait until Death Metal ends for a new writer.[/QUOTE]
Once this is all over I don't mind KGBeast as a recurring enemy since Nightwing is The One Who Got Away
What I hate is Ric, not the shooting itself.
[QUOTE=Konja7;5054720]Yeah. They need something to help the sales (and that's situation for comics in general).[/QUOTE]
Things look bad, and the last couple years have been straight f*cking awful. But let's not discount Nightwing or his fanbase. We're talking about one of the most stable and consistent comics in the entire industry, when DC itself isn't hell bent on ruining it (does my money smell bad or something? I don't understand why they don't want it).
It might take a little time for readers to return, and it'll serve DC right if it does; they f*cked us over hard and laughed about it. But you slap a new #1 on the cover, the proper Nightwing costume and name, and put a decent creative team on the book (like Williamson maybe) and before long Nightwing will be selling what he used to. It won't happen over night, but it'll happen. And all that is the bare minimum effort; if Jim Lee puts his money where his mouth is and really is out to protect Nightwing, we'll get more than that bare level effort (might not happen until the company recovers from the pandemic unbalancing stuff though). And if we get that extra effort, the sales will bounce back faster and might even settle at a higher average than the book historically has.
Work needs to be done to repair the character and book, but Nightwing doesn't require miracles. It just requires a decent creative team and an editor who doesn't actively try to sh*t on him.
Truly it seems they have him connected to Batman too much. Dick should have a good relationship but shouldn't need to apologize for many things. Dick is well respected. Sadly Dc wants things to always have Dick just be a big sidekick. There comes a time where maybe another fallout is needed.
[QUOTE=Frontier;5054297]Joshua Williamson writing a [I]Titans[/I] book? That...that honestly wouldn't be too bad to be honest.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=DragonPiece;5054307]I'm still holding out hope Williamson will write Nightwing. It's clear DC has a relaunch on the way, I'd rather Jurgens not keep writing.[/QUOTE]
Why not both? He'll have the time, Flash was a double shipping book and neither Titans nor Nightwing are. And didn't Williamson say he wasn't done with the speedsters? A Titans book should have Wally in it.
No, please, not another fallout with Bruce. That’s a part of why Dick is Bat lite.
Grayson has people skills, he uses his words. They can certainly disagree, and Dick can choose to distance himself, but they are truly brothers, and should never lose that connection. The connection should not be at the hip, is all.
I would really prefer a new writer. I know Jurgens had to writer "Ric" and not Nightwing proper, but the guy could have done something interesting with it instead of spinning his wheels and dragging out the storyline (and I use that word lightly) with pointless recap that will be even more intolerable in a trade.
I know he's not a bad writer overall, but he did such an actively bad job with this title that I'd quite literally like to see any other writer give a whack at it. Except for Lobdell, even I won't breathe that evil into the world.
True. All I’m saying is Dc needs to even treat Dc like a Solo hero within the Batfam or take him out. By that I mean he has connections of course but he isn’t going to appear in the Batfam comics often one or two. They have to honestly cut back on his appearance. The appearances that should appear could simple be family related. Once again to not make him Bat lite it would more to do about his city. Not only that but no sidekicks. I mean even those Rose is with good relationships with her dad. Would it still work with rose and him be mentor and mentee? He basically needs more clear cut supporting cast that would balance out Batfam
Also when it comes to the age gaps with the robins how wide are they.
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5054996]True. All I’m saying is Dc needs to even treat Dc like a Solo hero within the Batfam or take him out. By that I mean he has connections of course but he isn’t going to appear in the Batfam comics often one or two. They have to honestly cut back on his appearance. The appearances that should appear could simple be family related. Once again to not make him Bat lite it would more to do about his city. Not only that but no sidekicks. I mean even those Rose is with good relationships with her dad. Would it still work with rose and him be mentor and mentee? He basically needs more clear cut supporting cast that would balance out Batfam
Also when it comes to the age gaps with the robins how wide are they.[/QUOTE]
Dick was in college when Pre Crisis Jason came in
Dick was in New Teen Titans and living with Starfire when Post Crisis Jason became Robin
Jason died at 15, Tim came in at 13
Jason was revived soon after he's buried because of Superboy-Prime punch altering reality
Steph is one year older than Tim. I believe the age at that time was Robin 14, Spoiler 15
Dick moved to Bludhaven, worked as a Bartender, then went through a police academy, then became a cop, then worked as a museum curator...
When Damian arrived at 10 and Dick became Batman, Tim was still a high schooler, and I don't remember if Steph was in high school or college as Batgirl but she did infiltrate St. Hadrian's college so I'm gonna say she's in college, 18 years old, while Tim is 17.
and now Duke is a high schooler while Damian is 13 years old
[QUOTE=Konja7;5054720]I would like Dick and Damian working as team in a book, maybe that helps the stories and the sales.[/QUOTE]
I like this idea. Damian is only good when he has other characters to bounce off. Him and Dick were great. Damian, despite being Bruce's son, doesn't function well with him out in the field. With Dick, he did. Yes, [I]Nightwing & Robin[/I].
NIGHTWING: THE NEW 52 OMNIBUS HC
written by KYLE HIGGINS, TOM DeFALCO, TIM SEELEY, TOM KING, and SCOTT SNYDER
art by EDDY BARROWS, EDUARDO PANSICA, TREVOR McCARTHY, BRETT BOOTH, WILL CONRAD, CLIFF RICHARDS, JASON MASTERS, DANIEL SAMPERE, SANFORD GREENE, DOUG MAHNKE, GREG CAPULLO and others
cover by EDDY BARROWS
ON SALE 12/1/20
$99.99 US | 832 PAGES | FC | DC
7.0625" x 10.875"
ISBN: 978-1-77950-700-6
It's a new era for Dick Grayson as Nightwing gets a fresh start—one that takes Dick back to his origins.
When Haly's Circus, where Dick Grayson once performed, returns to Gotham City, it brings a mysterious, superhuman evil. Nightwing works to uncover the mysteries that the circus brought with it, but he finds himself torn between his two lives: circus performer and superhero. Is it possible that the two are more connected than he ever realized? Nightwing will travel with Haly's Circus across the East Coast and beyond in his attempt to discover the dark truths that hide beneath the big top.
Back in Gotham, Nightwing will face off against villains like Lady Shiva and The Joker—in this omnibus collection of Nightwing's memorable New 52 adventures! Collects Nightwing #0-30, Batman #17, Young Romance: A New 52 Valentine's Day Special #1, Nightwing Annual #1, and Secret Origins #1.
[QUOTE=Restingvoice;5055054]Dick was in college when Pre Crisis Jason came in
Dick was in New Teen Titans and living with Starfire when Post Crisis Jason became Robin
Jason died at 15, Tim came in at 13
Jason was revived soon after he's buried because of Superboy-Prime punch altering reality
Steph is one year older than Tim. I believe the age at that time was Robin 14, Spoiler 15
Dick moved to Bludhaven, worked as a Bartender, then went through a police academy, then became a cop, then worked as a museum curator...
When Damian arrived at 10 and Dick became Batman, Tim was still a high schooler, and I don't remember if Steph was in high school or college as Batgirl but she did infiltrate St. Hadrian's college so I'm gonna say she's in college, 18 years old, while Tim is 17.
and now Duke is a high schooler while Damian is 13 years old[/QUOTE]
Yeah, Steph was at college in her Batgirl series. She would've been posing as being a year or two younger than her real age when Batman enrolled her at St Hadrians in Batman Incorporated (in an issue delayed enough that it was printed AFTER New 52 started, meaning it had already been retconned!).
and now in Rebirth Tim's getting a scholarship to college and the solicit for Young Justice talked about the team entering young adulthood, so they'd be around 18 and if you say Steph enrolled as a year younger then it fits if she's 19 now.
So classically the age difference is Dick to Jason a minimum of 5 years
Cass is the same age as Jason
Jason to Steph is 1 year
Steph to Tim is 1 year
Tim to Duke is around 1-2 years
Duke to Damian is 3-4 years
So supposedly the current lineup is
Damian 13
Duke 16-17
Tim 18
Steph 19
Jason and Cass 20
Dick 25
[QUOTE=Restingvoice;5055396]and now in Rebirth Tim's getting a scholarship to college and the solicit for Young Justice talked about the team entering young adulthood, so they'd be around 18 and if you say Steph enrolled as a year younger then it fits if she's 19 now.
So classically the age difference is Dick to Jason a minimum of 5 years
Cass is the same age as Jason
Jason to Steph is 1 year
Steph to Tim is 1 year
Tim to Duke is around 1-2 years
Duke to Damian is 3-4 years
So supposedly the current lineup is
Damian 13
Duke 16-17
Tim 18
Steph 19
Jason and Cass 20
Dick 25[/QUOTE]
However, Tim's age is inconstant. In Tynion's Detective Comics, it was mentioned he was 16 (he could college earlier because he is pretty smart).
A problem with age is Batman, DC doesn't want the members of the Batfamily to grow, because it would make Batman too old.
[QUOTE=Konja7;5055434]However, Tim's age is inconstant. In Tynion's Detective Comics, it was mentioned he was 16 (he could college earlier because he is pretty smart).
A problem with age is Batman, DC doesn't want the members of the Batfamily to grow, because it would make Batman too old.[/QUOTE]
Yes but that was really early in Rebirth. Since then they've been adding more years to the back story and bringing back old canon until that solicitation mentioned the YJ generation are entering young adulthood... and since Bendis and Snyder seem to be counting old continuities as canon, even though it's not exactly clear since the new timeline isn't official yet, this is what logical to me for now.
[QUOTE=Konja7;5055434]However, Tim's age is inconstant. In Tynion's Detective Comics, it was mentioned he was 16 (he could college earlier because he is pretty smart).
[/QUOTE]The Robin 80th anniversary special retconned that. In a prequel to Detective Comics Rebirth, Tim told Dick that he wasn't 20 yet. Surely if he was only 16 he would've said so, that reads as him being 18 or 19.
I know this will be difficult but with how DC is. How do we stop having Dick just be Bat-lite? I mean should it be how Bruce treats Dick? With how long he has known him and how well-round DIck is. Shouldn't it be more he treats Dick equal?
[QUOTE=Restingvoice;5055396]So classically the age difference is Dick to Jason a minimum of 5 years[/QUOTE]Classically (comics fro the 80s) it is more like 7 years to Jason and 8 years to Tim.
[QUOTE=Restingvoice;5055054]Jason died at 15, Tim came in at 13[/QUOTE]Jason dieing at 15 isn't from the comics (it is from the Batman Files) and not really canon. Based on the comics Jason was 12 when Bruce took him in, and him being with Bruce long enough to turn 15 just doesn't work with the time line.
[QUOTE=Restingvoice;5055396]So classically the age difference is Dick to Jason a minimum of 5 years[/QUOTE]Classically (comics fro the 80s) it is more like 7 years to Jason and 8 years to Tim.
Based on these comics it is even easier to find arguments for Tim and Jason being the same age, as for Jason being two years older than Tim.
[QUOTE=Somecrazyaussie;5055141]I like this idea. Damian is only good when he has other characters to bounce off. Him and Dick were great. Damian, despite being Bruce's son, doesn't function well with him out in the field. With Dick, he did. Yes, [I]Nightwing & Robin[/I].[/QUOTE]
I think because Damian is Bruce's son that's why their dynamic is not as compatible as BrucexDick and DickxDamian. They're kinda similar, both are dominating person, but the way they view the world are different. Every time I see Bruce and Damian conflict, they remind me of a pair of bull who bash their head with each other. Their dynamics are often go like this :
Batman : [B]I[/B] SAID-
Damian : AND [B]I[/B] SAID-
Sometimes I feel sorry for Dick to be sandwiched between them, but if there's someone in the world who can tame those two Waynes, it's him. I think Dick is Bruce's favorite Robin and Damian's favorite Batman.
The thing is. I like Damian's and Dick's relationship. But how does this help Dick? Do we get Damian to appear more in his books? Or maybe Damian simply calls dick to talk to him. One thing is that if we want Dick to be a hero around the world maybe since in the comics Dick was the one to suggest him being Robin. He has Damian look afterBludhaven. I mean slightly changing it up. Well, it does have crime. Bludhaven is much like Dick himself. While facing its ups and downs. It's a bright city. But much like Dick's past, there is Darkness underground. Despite this the people are positive. Always thought Bludhaven should be inbetween Metropolis and Gotham. It's not a dark place but it's not a happy place. It has it's crazies. Or maybe Cassie. We did have Step and Cassie do something.
Damian might have a great dynamic with Dick but he is a Batman support character and part of his cast. It doesn't help Dick. Nightwing writers should be focused on developing HIS own support cast exclusive to him.
As much as Dick and Damian work well together in truth Damian will always belong to the Batfamily.
I don't mind occasional guest appearances but I don't see Dick poaching him. It's better for Dick Grayson and Nightwing if his world remains fairly independent of thing that are associated with Gotham.
Agreed, Dick needs his own characters.
At this point I suppose Dick could probably poach Tim as his own; the only time in the last....nine years? that Tim has really had a presence in a Batman book was the Rebirth 'Tec. But that's still taking a Bat that wasn't designed for Dick.
Tim’s a clone that brings nothing to the table as a supporting character for Dick. Rose still remains the top choice IMO.
[QUOTE=Godlike13;5059085]Tim’s a clone that brings nothing to the table as a supporting character for Dick. Rose still remains the top choice IMO.[/QUOTE]
And Lor Zod!
Okay, we have Rose. What to do for her. I also would add back Haley's Cirus. We readd Court of owls. Dick rescues talons in training or even awakes some of the talons they are frozen. Dick uses the cirrus as a rehab.
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5059181]Okay, we have Rose. What to do for her. I also would add back Haley's Cirus. We readd Court of owls. Dick rescues talons in training or even awakes some of the talons they are frozen. Dick uses the cirrus as a rehab.[/QUOTE]
After Haly's Circus was exposed to the Bat-family, they no longer used them for training. I forget what they do in the series Talon but I think it's straight-up kidnapping.
Nevermind.
[QUOTE=Godlike13;5059085]Tim’s a clone that brings nothing to the table as a supporting character for Dick. Rose still remains the top choice IMO.[/QUOTE]
Rose is, of course, an excellent choice but it's still poaching a character Dick's never going to completely own as part of his individual mythos.
Don't get me wrong, Rose *should* be there. In my own fanfic headcanon she's there. But DC isn't going to take Rose away from Slade so Dick can add her to his supporting cast. Not as things stand right now anyway.
Give me an hour with Jim Lee and I'll convince him. I'm a hell of a salesman, I can make it happen. :p
They have done it before, Nightwing taking her away from her dad, and they have even done it outside of comics. I honestly don’t think Rose is un-gettable. The thing with Rose is she is part of Deathstroke’s mythos, who is part of of Titans mythos. So she already connects. Using her would be incredibly seemless. Deathstroke even further established ground for it.
Literally all it would take is Dick calling Rose and being like hey, heard shit is rough. Wanna come over to Bludhaven for a fresh start with me. Deathstroke probably wouldn’t even appose it. Not saying this is how it should play out, just saying it could be this easy and make sense with what has already been done. They wouldn’t even have to take her away from Deathstroke as it would fit their relationship.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]98974[/ATTACH]
variant for Batman #99 by Jorge Jiménez
[QUOTE=Godlike13;5059732]They have done it before, Nightwing taking her away from her dad, and they have even done it outside of comics. I honestly don’t think Rose is un-gettable. The thing with Rose is she is part of Deathstroke’s mythos, who is part of of Titans mythos. So she already connects. Using her would be incredibly seemless. Deathstroke even further established ground for it.
Literally all it would take is Dick calling Rose and being like hey, heard shit is rough. Wanna come over to Bludhaven for a fresh start with me. Deathstroke probably wouldn’t even appose it. Not saying this is how it should play out, just saying it could be this easy and make sense with what has already been done. They wouldn’t even have to take her away from Deathstroke as it would fit their relationship.[/QUOTE]
Oh, it can and has been done, and it's easy as hell to do. I totally agree with you; even right now it's far from impossible for Rose to shift over to Dick's book, especially since Slade's solo is done.
What I mean is, it's unlikely Rose would actually stick around long term. She'd join the supporting cast but once DC decides to do another Deathstroke book, or even a story where Slade features prominently (like another Judas crossover or something) Rose would get yanked out of Dick's narrative. That wouldn't be a horrible thing if it was just for a short crossover, but what if DC decides to do another Deathstroke solo? They're not gonna let Rose live in Dick's book if the Deathstroke writer wants her.
Rose *should* and *could* be part of Dick's supporting cast, and in my fanfic headcanon she is. But editorial needs to change the way it does things if we want her to stick around for good.
What do you guys about Artemis crock as nightwing partner or semi partner. People always say dick works best with a partner and she's popular with no real connections to other characters or franchises. Plus I like there dynamic in yj. What you guys think.
[QUOTE=WonderNight;5060325]What do you guys about Artemis crock as nightwing partner or semi partner. People always say dick works best with a partner and she's popular with no real connections to other characters or franchises. Plus I like there dynamic in yj. What you guys think.[/QUOTE]
Well, she hasn't appeared in any comic since Lodbell's TT and is not like Tigress was a particurlary popular villain...so yeah it migth work.
Okay, supporting cast. Do we keep the police commission? How does he meet the cops? I mean unlike Gotham. Bludhaven shouldn't be corrupted. But still should have it's crazy. Maybe in a sense for what it lacks in numbers. It makes up for in just how crazy things can get. He still does need the main villain. I mean if anything wouldn't DeathStorke want to go after Dick more than the Titans?