Dick Grayson: Robin / Nightwing Appreciation 2020

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5295642]Interesting. Doesn’t NW technically have a base? Like his home or all around Bludhaven. What would a good base for him be. I wonder where Babs is in Nightwing's FS. Many think he somehow lead the killing of the TT because he became Deathstroke[/QUOTE]

Nightwing has nothing right now. He was living on the street as Ric, and that is still where he's at more or less. The new team will have to reestablish all that now. And Babs is probably the damsel for the Batgirls. Cause Oracle is so important and all that, lol.

[QUOTE=Godlike13;5296319]Nightwing has nothing right now. He was living on the street as Ric, and that is still where he's at more or less. The new team will have to reestablish all that now. And Babs is probably the damsel for the Batgirls. Cause Oracle is so important and all that, lol.[/QUOTE]

True.Has Ric I think he destroyed all the bases. I mean it depends with Babs. She generally doesn't always need saving

That's a plot hole. Yes, Ric did destroy one of his bases - four costumes survived which were claimed by the three cops and firefighter who became the Nightwings team. But how did he even remember that base when he was supposed to have amnesia? So, isn't it possible he did forget others?

He will have definitely lost wherever he was living before he was shot though, as he certainly wasn't paying the bills while he was Ric! Presumably Bruce cleared the accommodation out, which is why he had the Nightwing costume to return to him when he got his memory back during Joker War.

[QUOTE=Digifiend;5297834]That's a plot hole. Yes, Ric did destroy one of his bases - four costumes survived which were claimed by the three cops and firefighter who became the Nightwings team. But how did he even remember that base when he was supposed to have amnesia? So, isn't it possible he did forget others?

He will have definitely lost wherever he was living before he was shot though, as he certainly wasn't paying the bills while he was Ric! Presumably Bruce cleared the accommodation out, which is why he had the Nightwing costume to return to him when he got his memory back during Joker War.[/QUOTE]

Well there are cases where certain things a person with amnesia can remember certain things. So maybe he remembers some things. Which is a plot holes

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5294016]You guys think that Nightwing can outsell Batman?[/QUOTE]

Not unless his series also has Batman in the title.

One thing that would help him is if he had his own editor or someone that will at least be appoint to help his book good. I think that person should also be head of TT.

I recognize that the Titans and it’s variants are valuable properties, but keeping Dick connected to them holds him back. He should always “be” a Titan, and a Bat, but neither should be his main identity. He should
be spun off as a solo hero, like Flash or GL, and rightfully be accepted by the League (one lessbook for Bruce won’t matter to him). Anything outside of that is a seat at the kid’s table.

[QUOTE=bearman;5299822]I recognize that the Titans and it’s variants are valuable properties, but keeping Dick connected to them holds him back. He should always “be” a Titan, and a Bat, but neither should be his main identity. Ould be spun off as a solo hero, like Flash or GL, and rightfully be accepted by the League (one lessbook for Bruce won’t matter to him). Anything outside of that is a seat at the kid’s table.[/QUOTE]

I agree but man do people love there dixson and NTT nostalgia. The way I see forward for nightwing is as a global espionage hero.

New interview:

[url]https://www.gamesradar.com/tom-taylors-nightwing-plans-include-a-dual-threat-barbara-gordon-and-solidifying-a-list-status-for-dick/[/url]

[QUOTE=Drako;5303962]New interview:

[url]https://www.gamesradar.com/tom-taylors-nightwing-plans-include-a-dual-threat-barbara-gordon-and-solidifying-a-list-status-for-dick/[/url][/QUOTE]

Ha! I adore him utterly disowning the Death Metal "marriage".

I’m excited. Says the right kind of things, so I hope he delivers. I know people like his Deceased but my favorite thing from Taylor was his All New Wolverine.

[QUOTE=Godlike13;5304174]I’m excited. Says the right kind of things, so I hope he delivers. I know people like his Deceased but my favorite thing from Taylor was his All New Wolverine.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't mind a "pat on the head" scene between Babs and Dick. ;)

What he says sounds good and I like that that scene from last tales isn't canon.

[QUOTE=Godlike13;5304174]I’m excited. Says the right kind of things, so I hope he delivers. I know people like his Deceased but my favorite thing from Taylor was his All New Wolverine.[/QUOTE]

All New Wolverine was so good. One of the biggest reasons I'm excited for his Nightwing.

Well im not the biggest fan of this status quo (please don't make him a cop) but I hope it's good and fans enjoy it.

I think a mayoral campaign is what he’s hinting at.

[QUOTE=Drako;5303962]New interview:

[url]https://www.gamesradar.com/tom-taylors-nightwing-plans-include-a-dual-threat-barbara-gordon-and-solidifying-a-list-status-for-dick/[/url][/QUOTE]
So far Taylor's been saying all the right things, and he's citing the best influences.

I don't think anyone was expecting that "marriage" to be legit.

Him building Dick's character around Bludhaven will eventually fail, but we've been over that already. So no need to get into all that again. I only hope that the story eventually branches outside of Bludhaven but so far it doesn't seem like he has any plans to focus on Dick outside that city which kind of sucks.

[QUOTE=Badou;5304374]Him building Dick's character around Bludhaven will eventually fail, but we've been over that already. So no need to get into all that again. I only hope that the story eventually branches outside of Bludhaven but so far it doesn't seem like he has any plans to focus on Dick outside that city which kind of sucks.[/QUOTE]

I'd have thought that "it's not about Bludhaven" would have piqued your interest! I'd glad he's not trying to pitch the city as an integral part of Dick's psyche or anything.

Also, by way of overthinking, interesting that he doesn't mention "Grayson" at all. Seeley gets a namecheck as an inspiration for the Rebirth run, but King doesn't, and his "Dick outside the influence of Batman" examples are leading the Justice League and the Titans, with nothing about Spyral.

I like everything I've heard from Taylor, I'm also a HUGE fan of ANW. I hope he knocks it out the park. No more bland stories and bat derailing for Nightwing please.

[QUOTE=9th.;5304458]I like everything I've heard from Taylor, I'm also a HUGE fan of ANW. I hope he knocks it out the park. No more bland stories and bat derailing for Nightwing please.[/QUOTE]
Heck yeah, this sounds like the Dick I’ve been wanting for years. Back in Blüdhaven and doing his own thing. The only thing missing is Bridget Clancy, but I’m digging the Barbara angle regardless.

[QUOTE=Claude;5304439]I'd have thought that "it's not about Bludhaven" would have piqued your interest! I'd glad he's not trying to pitch the city as an integral part of Dick's psyche or anything.

Also, by way of overthinking, interesting that he doesn't mention "Grayson" at all. Seeley gets a namecheck as an inspiration for the Rebirth run, but King doesn't, and his "Dick outside the influence of Batman" examples are leading the Justice League and the Titans, with nothing about Spyral.[/QUOTE]

Actually he said it is about Bludhaven. But he did also say its not about a lost, corrupted city ruled by fear and calling out for a hero. So hopefully they at least avoid the worst parts.

[QUOTE=Godlike13;5304471]Actually he said it is about Bludhaven. But he did also say its not about a lost, corrupted city ruled by fear and calling out for a hero. So hopefully they at least avoid the worst parts.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately he said it is about a lost corrupted city which is disappointing, I was hoping we could get away from that. It's so boring :(

[QUOTE=9th.;5304488]Unfortunately he said it is about a lost corrupted city which is disappointing, I was hoping we could get away from that. It's so boring :([/QUOTE]

LoL, ya. Im seeing things too i guess. Oh well. What can you do. Hopefully they make it work. Still lots of bits that sounds good nonetheless.

[QUOTE=Claude;5304439]I'd have thought that "it's not about Bludhaven" would have piqued your interest! I'd glad he's not trying to pitch the city as an integral part of Dick's psyche or anything.

Also, by way of overthinking, interesting that he doesn't mention "Grayson" at all. Seeley gets a namecheck as an inspiration for the Rebirth run, but King doesn't, and his "Dick outside the influence of Batman" examples are leading the Justice League and the Titans, with nothing about Spyral.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Godlike13;5304471]Actually he said it is about Bludhaven. But he did also say its not about a lost, corrupted city ruled by fear and calling out for a hero. So hopefully they at least avoid the worst parts.[/QUOTE]

"What he chooses to do with this will demonstrate how different he is from Bruce Wayne. This isn't about Gotham. [B]This is about Blüdhaven[/B]. [B]This is about a lost, corrupted city ruled by fear[/B] and calling out for a hero. This is about a hero stepping out of the shadows to answer the call and to push back against the darkness as a positive, entertaining, compassionate force for good."

He's building the run around Bludhaven and it is clear he is just using the old Dixon version given the lost and corrupted comment. It feels completely unoriginal to me. Like the worst aspects of Bludhaven, but it is what it is. My bitching won't change anything. It feels like the run is going to be stuck there for at least its first arc or two probably. So at least a year.

Edit: Oh looks like you already saw it, haha

As for the whole A-list comment thing, it is the same stuff that every Nightwing writer has said. Higgins and Seeley said the exact same thing. So I don't put a ton of value in that. I'm pretty down on the concept behind this run overall, even though I think the creative team is pretty talented, but my only real hope now is that the run doesn't get dragged into Tynion's Batman stuff. I don't expect Dick to ever be A-list now, but he obviously will never be looked at as A-list if his own book and character keep getting derailed by Batman's own book.

Baby steps. Even just a solid consistent run would go a long way right now. He doesn’t have to actually make him A-list, thats beyond just one creator, but that being how he is choosing to see him is a comfort given how guys like Abnett, Lobdell, and Jurgens have been his architect for these past years. Guys who didn't see him as anything more then Batman's bitchboy or a throwaway mid tier character. Its not A-list or bust, it never really has been and doesn't even really need to be. But respect the sell. Give a shit about how your lead looks.

I think the A-List talk seems more serious because of the logo change. It's a small but powerful detail.

[QUOTE=Claude;5304439]I'd have thought that "it's not about Bludhaven" would have piqued your interest! I'd glad he's not trying to pitch the city as an integral part of Dick's psyche or anything.

Also, by way of overthinking, interesting that he doesn't mention "Grayson" at all. Seeley gets a namecheck as an inspiration for the Rebirth run, but King doesn't, and his "Dick outside the influence of Batman" examples are leading the Justice League and the Titans, with nothing about Spyral.[/QUOTE]

The writers he mentioned were a response to how Babs' and Dick's relationship will be portrayed and how he was influenced. King never really spoke about their relationship, so I'd guess that's why he has been left out while Simone has been mentioned. She isn't really a Nightwing writer. Of course, you are still onto something. I hope Spyral will enter the picture again or at least the Grayson characters but it sadly seems like wishful thinking at this point.

Speaking about Spyral: Back when Event Leviathan was happening I heard Dick was supposed to be in it before the whole Ric thing struck, is there any truth to that and if so, do you think Dick might appear in some form if Spyral is back for that Checkmate/Leviathan 2 thing Bendis is planning?

I don't expect Dick to get involved in anything Leviathan related since he wasn't involved in the first series. I imagine Bendis is just going to focus on the characters he has already used for it rather than introduce Dick and then have him play any kind of role in it. That's why guess at least.

Also going off this new Taylor interview I guess Dick and Babs aren't dating if he is going to ignore all the Death Metal Special issue? I really hope he doesn't do more of the "will they/won't they" crap that killed my interest in their relationship. That has me a bit worried.

[QUOTE=Avi;5304567] The writers he mentioned were a response to how Babs' and Dick's relationship will be portrayed and how he was influenced. King never really spoke about their relationship, so I'd guess that's why he has been left out while Simone has been mentioned. She isn't really a Nightwing writer. Of course, you are still onto something. I hope Spyral will enter the picture again or at least the Grayson characters but it sadly seems like wishful thinking at this point.

Speaking about Spyral: Back when Event Leviathan was happening I heard Dick was supposed to be in it before the whole Ric thing struck, is there any truth to that and if so, do you think Dick might appear in some form if Spyral is back for that Checkmate/Leviathan 2 thing Bendis is planning?[/QUOTE]

King spoke about their relationship. Dudes a romantic, remember how he had Dick calling Babs his home. I think he preferred Dick and and Babs more so then Seeley, who i think was frustrated by Dick and Babs.

And yes Dick was suppose to at least make small appearance but was ultimately swapped out with Huntress because of Ric. Not sure if it was going to be anything more then that scene though.

[QUOTE=Badou;5304587]Also going off this new Taylor interview I guess Dick and Babs aren't dating if he is going to ignore all the Death Metal Special issue? I really hope he doesn't do more of the "will they/won't they" crap that killed my interest in their relationship. That has me a bit worried.[/QUOTE]
I mean, the clarification was that they're not treating the "marriage" as canon, which makes sense, but they might still be dating.

It's never quite been clear exactly what the relationship status is between the two beyond being crime-fighting partners but the influences he cited makes me think they'll be each others focal relationship in the run.

[QUOTE=Frontier;5304681]I mean, the clarification was that they're not treating the "marriage" as canon, which makes sense, but they might still be dating.

It's never quite been clear exactly what the relationship status is between the two beyond being crime-fighting partners but the influences he cited makes me think they'll be each others focal relationship in the run.[/QUOTE]

After 9 years of will they/won't they I don't know if leaving it vague will work anymore though. How the two have been revolving around each other since the reboot has been really bad on both of them.

[QUOTE=Badou;5304701]After 9 years of will they/won't they I don't know if leaving it vague will work anymore though. How the two have been revolving around each other since the reboot has been really bad on both of them.[/QUOTE]
Well, we don't know how vague it will be in the actual book. Maybe if someone actually asked Taylor he'd clarify it directly (or maybe he'd still be evasive? I dunno).

I just have a hard time seeing them as partners together in a book and not knocking boots at some point and he cited writers who leaned into the romance aspect of the characters at one point or another. I would think having them in a book together and not needing to worry about Babs having a solo would be more conducive towards successfully pairing them together.

I’m guessing she’s his campaign manager.

[QUOTE=Godlike13;5304713]I’m guessing she’s his campaign manager.[/QUOTE]
I'm hoping that means Babs in skirts ;).

[QUOTE=Frontier;5304705]Well, we don't know how vague it will be in the actual book. Maybe if someone actually asked Taylor he'd clarify it directly (or maybe he'd still be evasive? I dunno).

I just have a hard time seeing them as partners together in a book and not knocking boots at some point and he cited writers who leaned into the romance aspect of the characters at one point or another. I would think having them in a book together and not needing to worry about Babs having a solo would be more conducive towards successfully pairing them together.[/QUOTE]

There is also the issue of what their past relationship even is too. Continuity is a complete mess, but if the "everything is canon" thing holds true then does that mean their prior engagement is canon? If that is true then you can't really ease into a romance or keep it vague when the two were already engaged, right? Or have the two even dated before or even slept together? Throughout the New 52 it wasn't clear what their past was. It always just went back to the timing never being right or some excuse whenever it felt like their past came up. I feel like there needs to be some clarification on it all, but it is one of those things that I don't really expect them to want to deal with and prefer to keep it vague unfortunately so they can drag out and tease a romance like they have been.

[QUOTE=Badou;5304729]There is also the issue of what their past relationship even is too. Continuity is a complete mess, but if the "everything is canon" thing holds true then does that mean their prior engagement is canon? If that is true then you can't really ease into a romance or keep it vague when the two were already engaged, right? Or have the two even dated before or even slept together? Throughout the New 52 it wasn't clear what their past was. It always just went back to the timing never being right or some excuse whenever it felt like their past came up. I feel like there needs to be some clarification on it all, but it is one of those things that I don't really expect them to want to deal with and prefer to keep it vague unfortunately so they can drag out and tease a romance like they have been.[/QUOTE]
I think you can keep it vague enough that they have a long and storied romantic history and connection with each other that you can play into with them as partners.

I think there is less of a need to keep them apart or not address the relationship when they're in the same book as each other. There's no Batgirl solo getting in the way.

[QUOTE=Godlike13;5304713]I’m guessing she’s his campaign manager.[/QUOTE]

Oh God, please don't tell me they are going to go down the Batman Beyond future of Dick being mayor of Bludhaven. That would be my worst nightmare, lol.

He might just run in attempt to see what the deal with Zucco is. Which is usually his motivation for every job he takes.

[QUOTE=Godlike13;5304471]Actually he said it is about Bludhaven. But he did also say its not about a lost, corrupted city ruled by fear and calling out for a hero. So hopefully they at least avoid the worst parts.[/QUOTE]


[QUOTE=Badou;5304522]"What he chooses to do with this will demonstrate how different he is from Bruce Wayne. This isn't about Gotham. [B]This is about Blüdhaven[/B].[/QUOTE]

Ha! I'm not going to lie to you, fellas, I've been drinking heavily - I entirely misread that bit of the interview! Thanks for the polite and non-judgey correction - now to drink a lot of water....

[QUOTE=Godlike13;5304557]Baby steps. Even just a solid consistent run would go a long way right now. He don't have to actually make him A-list, thats beyond just one creator, but that being how he is choosing to see him is a comfort given how guys like Abnett, Lobdell, and Jurgens have been his architect for these past years. Guys who didn't see him as anything more then Batman's bitchboy or a throwaway mid tier character. Its not A-list or bust, it never really has been and doesn't even really need to be. But respect the sell. Give a shit about how your lead looks.[/QUOTE]

This. Nobody becomes A-list overnight, especially if we're talking about the "real" A-list, the heroes everybody on earth recognizes and knows a few details about. Hell, it's not really something that's even achievable, at least in the foreseeable future, unless DC stumbles upon a "perfect storm" moment.

But writing him in his own book like he's an A-lister? Putting in real effort to build his world up, and seeing that effort continue? Those are the first steps to a consistent, respected, strong IP (and also basic writing, which DC often forgets). And if that consistency and respect and effort remain long enough? Then the A-list discussion becomes a lot less about Dick's potential and a lot more about his actual value.

Anyway, the Bludhaven thing isn't the direction I'd run with. I'd have Dick live there, but not be tied to it the same way Bruce is tied to Gotham or Clark is to Metropolis. But I'm not writing the book, and I'll judge it on its own merits. It's not surprising that DC is still intent on using the city; it's a staple of the genre, and we ourselves have discussed the various boxes a character needs to check in order to (traditionally) become A-list and a home city is almost always on that list.

I'm still more than willing to see where this goes, even if it's not looking like the kind of high-concept, wanderlust-filled neo-Silver Age romp I'd write myself. It's not "my" direction but I'll take a strong, well done, quality street level Nightwing over more of the crap DC has given us. The font change to the title, getting one of their bigger remaining talents on the book....these are good signs and while I have neither forgiven nor forgotten what DC's done to us, I'm willing to give the new regime the opportunity to make up for past mistakes.

I just saw the "Return of the Caped Crusaders" cartoon movie. It was a great feature of the original Robin portrayal, especially with Burt Ward as the voice.
I wonder what it would be like to have a Teen Titans comic or cartoon feature with that version of Robin and retro style portrayal of the other original Titans.