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[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4840781]Diana is literal a call away. So they are really only using it for plot reasons. They really don’t want to cut this storyline short. When Ric ends. Will we even get a good Nightwing story. Before Ric did he have good stories?[/QUOTE]
Better Than Batman and Nightwing: Year One are his only [i]good[/i] ones. Freefall and The Great Leap are enjoyable. That’s about it.
Seeley’s run on the title was solid. So it’s not that the book was bad before Ric, but it was in creator hell after Seeley wanted out. As soon as they found someone to write the book for more then an arc they did Ric and ran him off. The likelihood we will get even decent stories after Ric is probably slim. Cause while Ric might end, his book being a refuge for boring complacent creators like Jurgans will probably continue.
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4840781]Diana is literal a call away. So they are really only using it for plot reasons. They really don’t want to cut this storyline short. When Ric ends. Will we even get a good Nightwing story. Before Ric did he have good stories?[/QUOTE]
[I]Grayson[/I] is so much fun to read through again. So enjoyable.
[QUOTE=Pohzee;4840787]Better Than Batman and Nightwing: Year One are his only [i]good[/i] ones. Freefall and The Great Leap are enjoyable. That’s about it.[/QUOTE]
Was gonna argue with you, but well... I honestly just disagree with your use of "good."
I'd say that Better Than Batman is great. I never really thought Nightwing Year One was anything to write home about. I'd put a slew of TPBs into the "good" category, including nearly all of Seeley's run, Traps and Trapeezes (which gets a bad rap because n52 took so much away from Dick), Freefall and Great Leap (as you've said), The Untouchable (again, underrated because of what it follows, in this case Seeley's run).
Under that you've got your "pretty good," with most of Dixon's run, most of Higgins' run, and the bleeding edge stuff. Then you've the dross like tentacle Jason.
It is clear though, that most of Dick's [I]great[/I] stories were told with him not as a solo Nightwing. Dark Mirror, Batman & Robin, and Grayson all shine out above his Nightwing stuff. Even Robin Year One, IMO, is better than most of his solo title stuff.
Yeah, I feel like there’s a difference between a good when it comes to comics and most media. The fact that there is a comic that gets a 9.0 average on comic book roundup tells you all you need to know about the standards of the medium.
All of the stories you listed are enjoyable, but nothing to write home about. If you aren’t a fan of the character, they aren’t worth reading. Which is my criteria of good.
It does give a slight bias towards beginner friendly stories like Year One, but that truly is more memorable than anything else.
And I strongly agree that most of his best stuff is when he isn’t Nightwing. Those are all great stories.
So should he be a spy or Nightwing? There seems to be a slight divide.
Also if Nightwing were to ever have an animated movie about him or ******action movie would it ever work?
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4840983]So should he be a spy or Nightwing? There seems to be a slight divide. [/QUOTE]
Why not Dick as a spy and then doubling as Nightwing working the same cases. Similar to how Daredevil works the same cases Matt Murdock does.
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4840781]Diana is literal a call away. So they are really only using it for plot reasons. They really don’t want to cut this storyline short. When Ric ends. Will we even get a good Nightwing story. Before Ric did he have good stories?[/QUOTE]
It's rare that I like a story and issue completely so most of this will be a list of moments
The... I forget which... Titans issue where Superman drops in to supervise the Titans and Nightwing had to explain that they need to be independent.
The Geoff Johns Teen Titans issue (#6) where he calls out the League and Titans for fighting like kids.
New 52 Nightwing #18-19 about rejecting his Talon heritage as he's not bound by destiny.
I think he did the same thing to Raptor about heritage in Better Than Batman so that too.
New 52 Batman and Robin, where Damian demand fighting all the previous Robin and take their weapons to prove himself but Nightwing just hands over his stick saying he's already Robin.
Any time where he or the story declares that he's not defined by tragedy.
Any moments where he acts the big brother, natural leader, or voice of reason.
The Aftermath of Nightwing and Robin Must Die where he talks with Damian about missing each other.
The one-shot where he goes all KillBill (without the killing) on the yakuza who kidnapped Damian.
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4840983]So should he be a spy or Nightwing? There seems to be a slight divide.
Also if Nightwing were to ever have an animated movie about him or ******action movie would it ever work?[/QUOTE]
If the choice is between Nightwing and spy I'm gonna still say Nightwing since his spy identity is a generic number and his own name. Other than that, I want a new identity since, even if Nightwing was initially created to be different than Batfam, he ended up being folded to the Batfam anyway, and casual people will think that Nightwing is between Robin and Batman.
That said, as long as that's how DC views him and his brand, it doesn't matter what identity he takes.
So I guess I'm gonna take secret agent after all since it's a stand out the position within the fam and DCU, as the only other secret agents are characters like Julia Pennyworth, supporting characters people often forget, or Max Lord, a villain.
Anything can be make work if they want.
Sadly with how DC treats him, it wouldn't matter. They can might Nightwing work if they don't make him that much involved in the Batfam. He should be called if it's serious not every time. That he has his own rogues gallery I mean who are his top rogues? Are there any rogues you would like to see created?
Most fans want Nightwing independent of Batman. I agree... but I really want Dick and Bruce to stay close. Their radio interaction during the early Grayson stories seemed touching, and true. There’s no reason they can’t meet regularly for dinner, or coffee, and get a little advice from each other, but stay independent crime fighters. They are brothers, and should act that way.
[QUOTE=Pohzee;4840940]Yeah, I feel like there’s a difference between a good when it comes to comics and most media. The fact that there is a comic that gets a 9.0 average on comic book roundup tells you all you need to know about the standards of the medium.
All of the stories you listed are enjoyable, but nothing to write home about. If you aren’t a fan of the character, they aren’t worth reading. Which is my criteria of good.
It does give a slight bias towards beginner friendly stories like Year One, but that truly is more memorable than anything else.
And I strongly agree that most of his best stuff is when he isn’t Nightwing. Those are all great stories.[/QUOTE]
I think its important to judge a story/medium by what its trying to do. I consider a comic good when it does what superhero comics should do, which is just that: be enjoyable. Great, to me, is when something stands out above the rest and becomes a must read. The same is true in movies and TV shows. Superstore is good, not great. Parks and Rec is great.
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4840983]So should he be a spy or Nightwing? There seems to be a slight divide. [/QUOTE]
por que no los dos? Nightwing can be problematic sometimes though, because his stories need to [I]feel[/I] different than Batman/Bruce stories. Thats something that not to many people have managed. I think Morrison handled that best with Dick's batman taking on a weird silverage tone.
[QUOTE=bearman;4841181]Most fans want Nightwing independent of Batman. I agree... but I really want Dick and Bruce to stay close. Their radio interaction during the early Grayson stories seemed touching, and true. There’s no reason they can’t meet regularly for dinner, or coffee, and get a little advice from each other, but stay independent crime fighters. They are brothers, and should act that way.[/QUOTE]
Independent here doesn't mean he stops contacting them but how DC treats him. Stop interrupting or canceling his story to serve Batman's story. Stop considering him only as a supporting cast to Batman. Not just sidekick but every member of the Batfam who headline their own book because they're already a main character of their own story. Crossovers are fine as long as they keep that in mind.
I mean if figure what makes Dick different from Batman. So his city Bludhaven yea would be corrupted but maybe not always in the same way as Gotham.
[QUOTE=bearman;4841181]Most fans want Nightwing independent of Batman. I agree... but I really want Dick and Bruce to stay close. Their radio interaction during the early Grayson stories seemed touching, and true. There’s no reason they can’t meet regularly for dinner, or coffee, and get a little advice from each other, but stay independent crime fighters. They are brothers, and should act that way.[/QUOTE]
This is true but I mean how often they at times how Bruce in his stories. Or how often he appears in there. I have no issue. I rather have him be able to handle himself and when he and Bruce or the other Batfam get together it's almost to hangout or have dinner. It shouldn't always be to lessen Nightwing. I'm just saying when Nightwing is in Batman's story it should mean things are very serious. That they need everyone.
[QUOTE=dropkickjake;4840920]
It is clear though, that most of Dick's [I]great[/I] stories were told with him not as a solo Nightwing. Dark Mirror, Batman & Robin, and Grayson all shine out above his Nightwing stuff. Even Robin Year One, IMO, is better than most of his solo title stuff.[/QUOTE]
And a lot of his best stuff is one-and-done issues too, that don't stick in the memory as easily as a big crazy six issue arc. The issue Seeley did with Superman showing up, Rebirth 9 or something, was a damn solid issue. Percy's three issue "motorcycle death race" was also really damn good. But that's only three issues, not a whole trade.
And of course, Dick's had great moments in other books like Titans, Robin (I used to love his guest appearances in Tim's book), etc., as well as Batman's books.
I think Nightwing has better moments in larger media than he typically has in comics too. It's rare that Nightwing *doesnt* steal every scene he's in on Young Justice, for example.
The problem isn’t Nightwing. The problem is the entire Nightwing solo was written by Chuck Dixon, a guy who wanted to forget all his connections and friends outside the batfam, and Devin Grayson who drove him into the ground, and Tomasi who came to it just before Batman died and Dick has to step in as Batman for his father and family. There’s nothing stopping Nightwing from being a great mantle aside from very glaring ugly agendas that DC had for it. Good stories with him as Robin or Batman could have been told the same as Nightwing, maybe aside from Black Mirror.
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4840983]So should he be a spy or Nightwing? There seems to be a slight divide.
Also if Nightwing were to ever have an animated movie about him or ******action movie would it ever work?[/QUOTE]in my mind dick should be a spy but as nightwing.
That should be his niche his corner that he can build and grow in. I believe nightwing needs to leave the city hero thing behind him (it makes him to similar to batman) and become a traveling hero. Young justice outsiders did nightwing right, he's still nightwing the superhero but his missions are globetrotting superhero spy missions.
Dick as nightwing should be DC's lead superhero spy. His solo should nightwing globetrotting around the dcu with regular team ups with others heroes.
Nightwing could make his own strike team with his supporting cast, a new spyral made to stop meta human trafficking ect. But dick as nightwing should be the spy.
Just copy young justice outsiders nightwing.
[QUOTE=WonderNight;4841676]
Just copy young justice outsiders nightwing.[/QUOTE]
Damn straight.
If I were a billionaire I'd pay DC a ton of money to pay Greg Weisman a ton of money to write Dick's solo.
I mean I wouldn't mind if he had his own City. I mean the majority of heroes have their own Cities to protected. Now in a way, there is a way for him to have his own city and be a global hero. In terms of a job he could be a PI. Who handles unusual cases. Around the world. You never know where this will take you. I mean what if Bludhaven doesn't have that much crime in it. Rather they send it elsewhere. To make Bludhaven more marketable. Sure there are gangs and mob bosses. But things like HUman tracking and other things are hidden and send off overseas.
That way the city isn't Gotham more like Metropolis. Nice clear city on the outside. On the inside, it can be dangerous.
I get you but one of the main problems with dick having a city is that unlike other heros nightwing has to not be too similar to another character, a character that has the biggest most famous city in all of comics.
Dick has to got to a point where people don't feel like if there's batman that what's the point of nightwing. That one of dick's biggest problems nightwing is to similar to batman.
Nightwing can't just be Jr batman and expect dc to care about him. Have nightwing be global and social is a key way of having them be not so similar.
And with a shiny new MacGuffin introduced, the end of Ric is in sight.
Just Joker War to get through...farewell 4 Nightwings, there are some crowbars with your names on them
If he needs to travel he would have to get money to do that somehow. So what if he went back as a acrobat ? Or a private detective? A way to write Bludhaven is that maybe it’s a safe city crime doesn’t happen here. That the gang lords don’t want crime to happen here so it’s outsourced
[QUOTE=Ascended;4841317]And a lot of his best stuff is one-and-done issues too, that don't stick in the memory as easily as a big crazy six issue arc. [/QUOTE]
There was a single issue of Nightwing by the guys who finished Grayson that I'd add to your list. It was very pulp martial arts movie in tone, and narrated by Damian. I wanna say Roy was in it. Stellar issue. I know its not officially Nightwing, but speaking of great single issues, The Gun Goes Off is still probably my favorite single comic issue of all time.
[QUOTE=nhienphan2808;4841522]The problem isn’t Nightwing. [/QUOTE]
To clarify, I'm with you on this one hundred percent. Correlation doesn't equal causation. There is a correlation though. Nightwing books tend to peak at "pretty good!" while Dick in other costumes or situations peak at "Holy cow this is amazing." I think it has more to do on how much freedom the creator has to do what they want. Seeley's work with Nightwing as Batman's global strike force of one is absolutely killer. His stuff with Dick in Bludhaven is... well, less killer. That's not a problem with Bludhaven persay, its a problem with Seeley being told that he HAD to write stories in bludhaven whether he wanted to or not.
[QUOTE=WonderNight;4841676]in my mind dick should be a spy but as nightwing.
....
Just copy young justice outsiders nightwing.[/QUOTE]
Yes aaaaand yes! I don't think that him not having a city is important persay. I think that Bludhaven as originally written by Dixon is a big problem. If you start the description as "Like Gotham but..." you've steered the ship wrong.
Yet another awful creatively lazy issue. 20 pages of repeating itself and telling reading stuff they already know. Continuing to move things along at a ridiculous snails pace just to introduce a potential magic hand wave cause and fix device.
[QUOTE=Godlike13;4842840]Yet another awful creatively lazy issue. 20 pages of repeating itself and telling reading stuff they already know. Continuing to move things along at a ridiculous snails pace just to introduce a potential magic hand wave fix device.[/QUOTE]
It did have the original robin cosume though!
Eh, I can't say I liked it a lot. It was... uh, not good, but not awful either. It read kind of like some adventure book from the 40's aimed for kids. But I guess we get Dick back in May thanks to this out-of-nowhere new item that solves the problem.
When we did have better ways of solving the problem, ways we actually knew about before.
Art was nice, even if a little bit stiff for my tastes. That's a more positive trait of the issue.
It constantly feels like this whole thing is getting dragged out so it can interact with whatever "the next big crossover story" is.
Dick Grayson, even amnesiac, scaling a Swiss castle full of a secret society of European Owls and Talons could have had like an ultra, ultra Nick Fury or spy James Bond vibe. Instead it just feels slapdash. But I liked Joker's "eenie, meenie, Nightwingy, no" rhyme. That was cute.
[QUOTE=K. Jones;4843322]It constantly feels like this whole thing is getting dragged out so it can interact with whatever "the next big crossover story" is.
Dick Grayson, even amnesiac, scaling a Swiss castle full of a secret society of European Owls and Talons could have had like an ultra, ultra Nick Fury or spy James Bond vibe. Instead it just feels slapdash. But I liked Joker's "eenie, meenie, Nightwingy, no" rhyme. That was cute.[/QUOTE]
I feel like this whole insufferable Ric thing will be dragged on (and finally get resolved) just in time for DC to convert to 5G...meaning he'll be restored as Dick/Nightwing and immediately get aged up and out of his usefulness. And therefore we STILL won't get to see Dick back in his glory. A newcomer will take over the book and bye bye Dick Grayson. :mad:
Iirc, 4g and 3g are going to have minis and limited series. I'm sure Dick is going to get more than a few as soon as some writer presents some interesting enough pitch. And at this point? I read more of those than actual regular series.
What a garbage issue. Just so much recap and barely any plot movement like always. I really don't understand how this series gets any praise from people, but I don't want to get banned again so I won't go further into that. The decisions Jurgens made with the dumb magic crystal or having Dick travel all the way to Europe when he could have just gone to Gotham and spoken to Batman when it is extremely obvious what memories are real anyway to help sort all this out is so poorly planned out. It sucks because Jurgens is going to probably stay on the title for a long time too.
[QUOTE=Zaresh;4843356]Iirc, 4g and 3g are going to have minis and limited series. I'm sure Dick is going to get more than a few as soon as some writer presents some interesting enough pitch. And at this point? I read more of those than actual regular series.[/QUOTE]
There has been no confirmation on that rumor. All we know is that there will be one shots for the different Generations before 5G starts.
[QUOTE=Badou;4843472]
There has been no confirmation on that rumor. All we know is that there will be one shots for the different Generations before 5G starts.[/QUOTE]
Oh, it's not confirmed? But I think I recall reading the announcement for some minis already? Black Label minis, which is pretty fitting, because I'm sure most fans of Dick and the other titans gen characters are more or less around my age or older. Maybe I read about some speculation and my mind decided it was an actual fact :/.
They really are stretching this out, he won’t go to batman becuase it would be to danm easy huh
[QUOTE=Zaresh;4843518]Oh, it's not confirmed? But I think I recall reading the announcement for some minis already? Black Label minis, which is pretty fitting, because I'm sure most fans of Dick and the other titans gen characters are more or less around my age or older. Maybe I read about some speculation and my mind decided it was an actual fact :/.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure. I think in the last group of solicits they are going to start releasing a one shot per month until 5G starting with Generation One attempting to explain their new universe outline. Which the first one is about Wonder Woman and the JSA and some secret history with Lucius Fox.
[QUOTE=Badou;4843537]I'm pretty sure. I think in the last group of solicits they are going to start releasing a one shot per month until 5G starting with Generation One attempting to explain their new universe outline. Which the first one is about Wonder Woman and the JSA and some secret history with Lucius Fox.[/QUOTE]
Darn, grrr. I was happier 15 minutes ago! ù__ú
Oh well, I guess I still can hope for it to happen, or something.
[QUOTE=astro@work;4843348]I feel like this whole insufferable Ric thing will be dragged on (and finally get resolved) just in time for DC to convert to 5G...meaning he'll be restored as Dick/Nightwing and immediately get aged up and out of his usefulness. And therefore we STILL won't get to see Dick back in his glory. A newcomer will take over the book and bye bye Dick Grayson. :mad:[/QUOTE]The book will just not exist if Dick isn't Nightwing. They didn't make Tim the new Nightwing when Dick became Batman and Damian became Robin, they made him Red Robin and ended the Nightwing title.
[QUOTE=K. Jones;4843322]It constantly feels like this whole thing is getting dragged out so it can interact with whatever "the next big crossover story" is.
Dick Grayson, even amnesiac, scaling a Swiss castle full of a secret society of European Owls and Talons could have had like an ultra, ultra Nick Fury or spy James Bond vibe. Instead it just feels slapdash. But I liked Joker's "eenie, meenie, Nightwingy, no" rhyme. That was cute.[/QUOTE]
Doesn’t the fact he has to do this and find his doctor in the later prove his owl
Memories are false?
[QUOTE=Zaresh;4843551]Darn, grrr. I was happier 15 minutes ago! ù__ú
Oh well, I guess I still can hope for it to happen, or something.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, the Black Label mini thing is just a rumor out of Bleeding Cool. Right now, the only things we know for a fact about 5G is the stuff from Wonder Woman 750, Flash 750 (has that shipped yet? It's supposed to be our next peek, anyway), and the 5 one-shots. Oh, there's supposed to be something in the free comic book day stuff too, I think. Everything else is unconfirmed at this point.
But I join you in hoping we get some good Nightwing in there somewhere.
[QUOTE=Rac7d*;4843784]Doesn’t the fact he has to do this and find his doctor in the later prove his owl
Memories are false?[/QUOTE]
Shhh! DC has convinced itself this is a fantastic story that's just too smart for fans. If you bring any kind of logic into things you'll damage their confidence! :p
If you guys can retcon anything in Nightwing's current timeline what would you retcon?
Ric obviously.
[QUOTE=Godlike13;4844146]Ric obviously.[/QUOTE]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/f7FdEdG_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium[/img]
I'd probably also take out the time he bent to Batman's will and disbanded the Titans. That was not a good look for him. And was him freaking out at Starfire's "In name only" political marriage canon again with the rest of the NTT stuff? Cuz I'd retcon that foolishness out too.
I would say Abnett’s Titans, but it’s was such a did nothing waste of time there is no need. It was hard to read through for Nightwing, cause the characterization was so bad, but it didn’t actually do or accomplish anything one way or another. One can just naturally forget it or treat it as it never happen. No retcon necessary.