Dick Grayson: Robin / Nightwing Appreciation 2020

[QUOTE=Restingvoice;5170340]" Again, because Batman really needed a partner."
"Teen Titans—which I was still on at the time—was way outselling Batman "

That's the idea. Robin Dick Grayson once doubled Batman sales, they want to do it again.
Dennis O'Neil returning Batman to his darker root apparently worked for a while in the 70s, but then maybe it got stale? Dick found success with Titans and DC thought... hey let's bring this gold-bringer boy back to Batman[/QUOTE]

Well, New Teen Titans sells more than Batman (I didn't know it was the double).

I don't think DC believes Robin Dick was so important for the success of New Teen Titans. Therefore, they were willing to return Dick (younger) to Batman.

It would have sense, previous Teen Titans comics wasn't so succesful until the New Teen Titans comic appear.

Maybe they weren't sure that New Teen Titans's popularity would last.


Curiously, if this call happened some years later, Wolfman couldn't avoid this, since New Teen Titans would lost its popularity.

[QUOTE=Konja7;5170451]Well, New Teen Titans sells more than Batman (I didn't know it was the double).

I don't think DC believes Robin Dick was so important for the success of New Teen Titans. Therefore, they were willing to return Dick (younger) to Batman.
[/QUOTE]

Hmm... more like... Robin Dick is one of their most well-known characters, and right at that time, one of their most well-known characters is in the most popular book with the most readers. So logically, if that character a lot of people read move to Batman, then the readers would continue reading him in Batman.

(The double part I was talking about when Robin was first introduced back in the 40s, but forget about that)

[QUOTE=Restingvoice;5170455]Hmm... more like... Robin Dick is one of their most well-known characters, and right at that time, one of their most well-known characters is in the most popular book with the most readers. So logically, if that character a lot of people read move to Batman, then the readers would continue reading him in Batman.

(The double part I was talking about when Robin was first introduced back in the 40s, but forget about that)[/QUOTE]

I doubt the idea was that readers in NTT would move to Batman, since DC wants a younger Robin/Dick Grayson. That was taking away one of the main attractives of NTT.

They just seem to want that Batman has his sidekick again. That's why they accepted to create a new Robin.


That said, there wasn't many earths (or something like that) at that time? Why they don't put a younger Dick Grayson with Batman in one, while an older Dick Graysom with NTT in another.

Or there were plans for Crisis at that time?

Crisis can't have been planned yet at the time, as both Donna and Lilith received updated origins before the Crisis (Donna was 3 issues before Dick became Nightwing, and Lilith 7 issues after), only to have them retconned due to Wonder Woman's reboot.

[QUOTE=Konja7;5170485]I doubt the idea was that readers in NTT would move to Batman, since DC wants a younger Robin/Dick Grayson. That was taking away one of the main attractives of NTT.

They just seem to want that Batman has his sidekick again. That's why they accepted to create a new Robin.


That said, there wasn't many earths (or something like that) at that time? Why they don't put a younger Dick Grayson with Batman in one, while an older Dick Graysom with NTT in another.

Or there were plans for Crisis at that time?[/QUOTE]

This is DC we're talking about. Their plans to increase sales are very simplistic and lacking in logic or long term planning. We got the death of superheroes, character assassination, unmasking, amnesia new direction yay, replacements, a wedding without a wedding, aging down characters, hoping to attract TV audience by copying the lineup but none of the characterizations, rebooting one part of the universe but not the others, or just straight-up picking writers who know nothing about the characters and refusing to learn because they want to make their own thing...

I'm not gonna be surprised if they've been like that since the 80s (the partial reboot was in the 80s)

Nightwing debuts in 1984, Crisis in 1985, but they made Jason circus boy, which is a copy of Dick, so I don't know if Crisis is the reason.

[QUOTE=Konja7;5170132]Here is the interview where Wolfman spoke about the reasons for the change of identity to Nightwing:

[url]https://13thdimension.com/behind-the-mask-marv-wolfman-on-the-creation-of-nightwing/[/url]

It confirms that DC doesn't just want Dick/Robin be partner of Batman again, but they also want him to be younger. Wolfman doesn't want to lost Dick (and New Teen Titans sold more than Batman at that time), so Nightwing was the compromise.

I wonder what was the idea of DC at that time.[/QUOTE]

Interesting to see that Wolfman didn't think Nightwing would be that popular, or at least not as popular as he became. That probably explains how the character was used in the Titans book up until the Batman books started using him again. Where his character kind of stagnated in the Titans and was stuck in his role there. Wolfman saw Deathstroke as the breakout character from the franchise probably and who he was more interested in. Which is why Deathstroke got that solo book by him maybe. He was also the kind of character that fit the 90s style of comics very well too. So I'm not saying it was wrong for Wolfman to look at Deathstroke as the breakout character from his Titans because he kind of was. I just wonder if Wolfman ever thought Nightwing should get a solo book or if he never really looked at the character like that back then.

I dunno, I already discussed my thoughts on the whole Robin to Nightwing transition a while back in this thread. No need to go over all my thoughts again, but looking back at everything I think in the long run it was the wrong move for Dick's character to give up the Robin identity. He's done well as Nightwing, but it will never be Robin. That era where he made that transition we saw the Titans franchise sort of collapse while the Batman franchise became a critical and commercial powerhouse again on the backs of really influential writers. Even if it meant deaging Dick to be Robin again I think it would have been the best move in the long run for the character's success.

Of course I can say that because we have the luxury to see what happened to the Titans franchise. Had the franchise evolved and retained its popularity the way the Uncanny X-Men did, which was the other huge series in the 80s, maybe my feelings would be completely different. Where Nightwing might have been able to grow into more of a modern Cyclops-type of role in the DCU where the Titans were still a powerhouse franchise for DC with Dick acting as this influential character. But this is all just going down the "what if" rabbit hole which you could do for any franchise or character, lol.

I mean they didn't have to take him to the Batman editor. He could have gone into the JL. They would have somehow put him back into Batman family somehow. Even X-Men at times they were very big in the 90s but things kind of fell apart

Batman 100 preview
[ATTACH=CONFIG]101126[/ATTACH]

[QUOTE=Restingvoice;5171526]Batman 100 preview
[ATTACH=CONFIG]101126[/ATTACH][/QUOTE]

Yeah, no that sadly doesn't make me look forward to the issue at all. Art is nice of course but that's a given.

Hope we get less exposition in JL this time and see some more of the team dynamic especially with Vic and Kory joining. I'm kinda starting to like Dick's design in-page and on some of the variants.

[QUOTE=Avi;5171911]Yeah, no that sadly doesn't make me look forward to the issue at all. Art is nice of course but that's a given.

Hope we get less exposition in JL this time and see some more of the team dynamic especially with Vic and Kory joining. I'm kinda starting to like Dick's design in-page and on some of the variants.[/QUOTE]

The art for the JL Death metal tie is sick AF. Looking forward to it. Not picking up any of this Joker War crap. It just doesn't feel geniune.

The family together feels hollow. Like it's all for nostalgia. Dick Grayson coming back in Batman doesn't feel right [though I guess he was shot in batman]

him coming back without Damian there also feels off though at least we have two of the fam who gave a shit when he was shot present for his return.

Looking forward to Snyder's Grayson work. Is this his last work for Dc?

[QUOTE=CPSparkles;5171959]Looking forward to Snyder's Grayson work. Is this his last work for Dc?[/QUOTE]

Do we know if this a standalone work? I doubt that he'd take over the actual Nightwing book.

It feels like will be a Black label book, but how knows. Hopefully they release the solicits this month.

Justice League #54 preview: [url]https://twitter.com/thedcnation/status/1312469215941726208[/url]

One if Nightwing ever gets his own movie whether it is animation or movie. What should they go for?

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5172887]One if Nightwing ever gets his own movie whether it is animation or movie. What should they go for?[/QUOTE]

I love nightwing but he ain't getting no movie because it'll be way to similar to batman. It'll most likely take place in Gotham with batfamily and bat villains. So DC will just go with batman or batgirl or robin or redwood or batwoman first. Nightwing would just play the support role as he always does.

If Dick ever got a movie, I’d wager it’d be more Grayson than Nightwing.

[QUOTE=Arsenal;5172948]If Dick ever got a movie, I’d wager it’d be more Grayson than Nightwing.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. Some thing like Grayson is different enough from batman in the way nightwing is not.

[QUOTE=Avi;5171911]Hope we get less exposition in JL this time and see some more of the team dynamic especially with Vic and Kory joining. I'm kinda starting to like Dick's design in-page and on some of the variants.[/QUOTE]
Beware - the preview for JL is out and it spoils the not yet released final issue of JL Odyssey!
[url]https://aiptcomics.com/2020/10/02/319017/[/url]

[QUOTE=Arsenal;5172948]If Dick ever got a movie, I’d wager it’d be more Grayson than Nightwing.[/QUOTE]

Could be both. Opening is him as Nightwing doing some minor bust, gets the word on Spyral and fakes his death to go undercover. Climax of the movie, the jig is up and he fights off the big bad using all his tricks as Nightwing and bookends the movie in the Nightwing costume going off on another adventure.

[QUOTE=Digifiend;5172969]Beware - the preview for JL is out and it spoils the not yet released final issue of JL Odyssey!
[url]https://aiptcomics.com/2020/10/02/319017/[/url][/QUOTE]

That's looking good and sounding good. :D Really curious to see if the Titans will have been given a good showing by the end despite Luthor's presence.

Because it's DC, the assumption is a film would just be Bat-lite and therefore it won't happen because why not just use Batman instead?

But if DC had a gods damn brain, they'd see plenty of other options; they could do the Grayson super spy like others have mentioned (you don't even have to take Dick out of the Nightwing suit for that), you could do something where Dick is dealing with super human threats beyond what we see from Bat movies (Dick fighting Gordanian slavers, Atomic Skull, whoever), or you could stick with the Bat-lite, street level crap and just go for a completely different tone. Batman films are always super serious, dark things so a Nightwing film with a more light hearted Silver Age vibe would be a completely different animal even if the plot is "hero fights crazy psycho inmate" like every Bat movie ever.

[QUOTE=Ascended;5173296]Because it's DC, the assumption is a film would just be Bat-lite and therefore it won't happen because why not just use Batman instead?

But if DC had a gods damn brain, they'd see plenty of other options; they could do the Grayson super spy like others have mentioned (you don't even have to take Dick out of the Nightwing suit for that), you could do something where Dick is dealing with super human threats beyond what we see from Bat movies (Dick fighting Gordanian slavers, Atomic Skull, whoever), or you could stick with the Bat-lite, street level crap and just go for a completely different tone. Batman films are always super serious, dark things so a Nightwing film with a more light hearted Silver Age vibe would be a completely different animal even if the plot is "hero fights crazy psycho inmate" like every Bat movie ever.[/QUOTE]

The problem is if DC wants a light hearted Silver Age adventures, they will likely choose another hero. DC has too much heroes that it could use for that kind of story.

The main seller point for Nightwing between general audience is that he was the first Robin. That's why almost every adaptation where Nightwing appears, he appears as Robin first.

So, they will mantain the character connected to Batman or Titans stories.

If you guys had to write a Nightwing movie how would you guys do it? I mean a good writer can do pretty much anything. If Green Arrow can work since both are similar yet different. Why not Nightwing

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5173364]If you guys had to write a Nightwing movie how would you guys do it? I mean a good writer can do pretty much anything. If Green Arrow can work since both are similar yet different. Why not Nightwing[/QUOTE]

Don’t think Green Arrow is the best way example in recent years given how much [I]Arrow[/I] cribbed from Batman’s mythos. :p

I remember a few years ago it seemed it a common fan talking point the next Batman movie should be “[I]Die Hard[/I] but in Arkham”, which I always felt would have been a plot better suited to Dick.

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5173364]If you guys had to write a Nightwing movie how would you guys do it? I mean a good writer can do pretty much anything. If Green Arrow can work since both are similar yet different. Why not Nightwing[/QUOTE]

If it has to be Nightwing, no Grayson, you could still do the Bond take - have him be the young rogue-ish, superspy who can investigate by infiltrating high tier events as the famous ward of the Wayne estate while knocking heads as Nightwing. I think it would be a great way to differentiate it by having it take place in locations other than Gotham - although of course the city can still be featured.

[QUOTE=Drako;5172773]It feels like will be a Black label book, but how knows. Hopefully they release the solicits this month.

Justice League #54 preview: [url]https://twitter.com/thedcnation/status/1312469215941726208[/url][/QUOTE]

Would a tie-in to [I]The Black Mirror[/I] be welcome to y'all?

[QUOTE=Gaius;5173398]Don’t think Green Arrow is the best way example in recent years given how much [I]Arrow[/I] cribbed from Batman’s mythos. :p

I remember a few years ago it seemed it a common fan talking point the next Batman movie should be “[I]Die Hard[/I] but in Arkham”, which I always felt would have been a plot better suited to Dick.[/QUOTE]

That would be pretty awesome, I'd pay for that.

[QUOTE=Konja7;5173320]The problem is if DC wants a light hearted Silver Age adventures, they will likely choose another hero. DC has too much heroes that it could use for that kind of story. [/QUOTE]

All depends on who the writer/director/producer/whoever pitches. We are *well* beyond the point where a character needs to be a A-list, high value property to get a movie. We've had movies for friggin Jonah Hex, the Losers, the Squad....plenty of IP's that aren't big names. The idea that Nightwing can't get a movie but the Losers can? Pure folly. Hell, some dude was already trying to make a Nightwing film happen. There's interest in the character, it's just WB who need to wise up.

[QUOTE]The main seller point for Nightwing between general audience is that he was the first Robin. That's why almost every adaptation where Nightwing appears, he appears as Robin first.[/QUOTE]

Which isn't a problem either. Yeah, one of the big hooks getting people in the door is the idea of Robin all grown up. That's where you start the story, not where it ends. And the last time Batman was in a movie he was fighting aliens and space gods, so Dick growing up and having adventures beyond the Bat-lite stuff? Not a problem.

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5173364]If you guys had to write a Nightwing movie how would you guys do it?[/QUOTE]

Off the top of my head I'd probably do a Young Justice season 3 type of deal; Nightwing travels the globe taking down organized crime rings that the law and other heroes miss; human trafficking, drug cartels, stuff like that.

I'd probably start the film in Gotham, where Dick's come home to visit, and have him pick up a lead concerning some mind control WMD that, after some fun action-adventure romps across Metropolis, Khandaq, and Markovia, lead him to Bialya, HIVE, and Queen Bee.

Mix in some motorcycle chases, some fancy parties he sneaks into, maybe a underground fight club or something.....I'd keep it fairly light, fast paced, and fun. That Percy era motorcycle death race arc is (generally speaking) the kind of vibe I'd go for; a mix of Fast & Furious, Bond, and Avengers.

Okay. One of the main reasons Jason was adopted was because Bruce realized how dangerous Jason could and he was lonely. If Dick were to disappear would that really miss the Batfam up? I mean it's often said that Dick is the glue and the only one who can get through to Bruce

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5173962]Okay. One of the main reasons Jason was adopted was because Bruce realized how dangerous Jason could and he was lonely. If Dick were to disappear would that really miss the Batfam up? I mean it's often said that Dick is the glue and the only one who can get through to Bruce[/QUOTE]

If the writers want it to then sure.

I don't think that Bruce saw Jason as dangerous

DC's relaxation into not needing all its characters to be in the same universe onscreen is good news for Dick - the way I see it, there are two paths to a Nightwing movie.

1) Spin-off from sequels to "The Batman" if they go that root. See also, and HBO Max series.
2) A film using Dick/The Titans to explore the idea - frankly, the joke - that in the DC universe you can spend your childhood bashing muggers and mobsters in Gotham City, and then get the train to meet Green Lantern or Superman.

Any ideas of what they can use for a Nightwing movie? Or what about a original movie idea

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5174339]Any ideas of what they can use for a Nightwing movie? Or what about a original movie idea[/QUOTE]

An already established Nightwing should be featured in a batgirl movie, die (not really) Bruce plants him Spyral for His solo Grayson film

[QUOTE=Rac7d*;5174351]An already established Nightwing should be featured in a batgirl movie, die (not really) Bruce plants him Spyral for His solo Grayson film[/QUOTE]

Grayson Spyral movie. Yup. Sign me up for that.

[QUOTE=Rac7d*;5174351]An already established Nightwing should be featured in a batgirl movie, die (not really) Bruce plants him Spyral for His solo Grayson film[/QUOTE]

This, but Dick fakes his own death and decides to go under cover on his own.

I don’t think you’d even need the whole “Dick fake death” thing for a Grayson movie.

[spoil]Some people got their books early and our boy's back in blue. Guess I'm buying Batman #100.[/spoil]

I agree Grayson works without Dick dying too. Spyral and he could start working together on the basis of both trying to hunt down the paragon pieces and Dick gets sucked into the spy shenanigans further and further while he tries to figure out what Spyral knows about his fellow heroes.

I also think Humphries' the Judge Arc could work well as a movie. Animated though because of all the fish-hybrids. It was a good single arc.

Raptor as a movie villain can work too, especially if it is closer to the first Raptor arc than the second one. He easily shows the differences between Dick and Bruce.



Batman #100 [SPOIL] was as expected nothing great. The confrontation with Punchline seemed to have potential at first, but yeah... Barbara's and Dick's "banter" was as disappointing as painful. We get it. Dick not smart.[/SPOIL]

Justice League #54 [SPOIL] I'm in love? The art is even better somehow. Everyone looks so gorgeous. I was worried about how they would handle Luthor but I'm quite pleased. And seeing more of the multiverse/reboot/starro shenanigans was great. Also, Kory and Dick and Vic were so sweet I have diabetes now. [/SPOIL]

Batman and JL were both good representations of Dick IMO. Really felt good to have him back. Love the banter between nightwing and oracle.

100# was generic, though I think it’s the first time I’ve seen Dick be competent under Tyrion so that’s something. JL though continues to be the Titans comic I been wanting. The only nit pick is i don’t think it remembers Lex killed Dick, and so Dick’s animosity towards him could be even more personal if they wanted it to.