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Big question time!
How would you feel if DC gave Dick Grayson his one true love? Don't really care if it's Babs, Kori, Helena, etc. As in they go all in and push this OTP like Lois and Clark. Would you be happy or even accept it? Any benefits or worries for the former bachelor Grayson.
Pushing a legit, "this is The One" mandated love interest for Dick? I'd feel like DC was putting in the smallest effort possible to build a foundation for him. A main love interest isn't a necessary thing, but it's one of the cornerstones of fiction, and in comics is one of those boxes you really want to check off if you're aiming for the A-list. This is something they likely should have been doing already, so my reaction would probably be closer to "you're finally doing your jobs, about time" than anything else. Dick doesn't necessarily *need* a main love interest, but it's generally a positive thing to include.
Whether I'd support it....depends on the execution. And who "The One" was. I won't pretend like that wouldn't influence me. But a lot of things can be forgiven or overlooked if the execution is quality, and if the story was worth reading then I can get over it if "my" choice for Dick's love interest wasn't the lucky gal.
I think it will be dangerous. A lot of people will be mad and salty. DC would have a lot more to lose than to gain.
You guys are going to love this idea but honestly a Nightwing/Batgirl book might not be the worse idea. Both books numbers aren’t great, Ric and apathy have not been kind. So it’s not like a simple relaunch is going to re-attract general audiences at this point. Nightwing/Batgirl potentially pools their fan bases, is generally favorable, while also combines the work load for an office that struggles to find the work ethic or capacity to properly support multiple books.
[QUOTE=qwazer07;4976766]Big question time!
How would you feel if DC gave Dick Grayson his one true love? Don't really care if it's Babs, Kori, Helena, etc. As in they go all in and push this OTP like Lois and Clark. Would you be happy or even accept it? Any benefits or worries for the former bachelor Grayson.[/QUOTE]
I don't care but I know a lot of people care and DC knows it will break the fanbase so that's why they haven't done it. The one time they made him married, they made him married twice at the same time. I laughed when I saw Convergence 80s Dick married Kori and Post Crisis Dick married Babs. That's when I know they know. XD
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4975869]How does Vixen fit in Nightwing's world?[/QUOTE]well vixen is one of the biggest and most famous models in world. Nightwing owning a entertainment business gives vixen a reason to stop by bludhaven everyonce in a while for fashion shows and team ups.
This helps both by giving vixen a place she can show up sometimes instead of set'in limbo for years not being used, bludhaven would feel like a more rich city and nightwing would feel more connected to the larger superhero community.
[QUOTE=Restingvoice;4975880]
Zatanna in the comic canon was Bruce's childhood love interest. They're around the same age range. I'd personally avoid sharing women between father and son.[/QUOTE]
So dick and zatanna can't work together as business partners or heroes because of zatanna's relationship with Bruce? Dick and zee don't have to be a ship.
Zatanna would help bludhaven be a richer city that matters beyond nightwing live's there, like black lightning with metropolis a d helps keep it its vegas feel. Plus zatanna needs a place outside of JLD to get some spotlight, we barely get to see zatanna as a stage magician anymore.
As far as zatanna's age, well I do like zatanna's relationship with Bruce I'd prefer zatanna be deaged to her mid to late 20's. I believe zee as a character and performer works better in her 20's than her being close to menopause.
[QUOTE=Godlike13;4976827]You guys are going to love this idea but honestly a Nightwing/Batgirl book might not be the worse idea. Both books numbers aren’t great, Ric and apathy have not been kind. So it’s not like a simple relaunch is going to re-attract general audiences at this point. Nightwing/Batgirl potentially pools their fan bases, is generally favorable, while also combines the work load for an office that struggles to find the work ethic or capacity to properly support multiple books.[/QUOTE]Sure just have him move back to Gotham and change his name to Batboy and we're good.
I'd just prefer a nightwing/Flash (wally) book.
[QUOTE=WonderNight;4977081]So dick and zatanna can't work together as business partners or heroes because of zatanna's relationship with Bruce? Dick and zoe don't have to be a ship.
Zatanna would help bludhaven be a richer city that matters beyond nightwing live's there, like black lightning with metropolis a d helps keep it its vegas feel. Plus zatanna needs a place outside of JLD to get some spotlight, we barely get to see zatanna as a stage magician anymore.
As far as zatanna's age, well I do like zatanna's relationship with Bruce I'd prefer zatanna be deaged to her mid to late 20's. I believe zee as a character and performer works better in her 20's than her being close to menopause.[/QUOTE]
Wait I thought we're talking about ships. We're not?
[QUOTE=Restingvoice;4977098]Wait I thought we're talking about ships. We're not?[/QUOTE]I love dick and zee as a ship but no this is not about a ship.
It's about characters benefiting though connections and a shared universe. So that characters like nightwing can have a richer world by having popular characters like zatanna or deadman as recurring cast both as civilians and heroes. It also helps characters like zatanna have more opportunities for development and appearances outside of just team book like JLD so they don't in up spending years in limbo like vixen, power girl and captain atom are right now.
Nightwing would get some popular characters as recurring cast for his solo, bludhaven would be a richer popular city and it'll be easier for bludhaven to maintain its Vegas feel with some popular characters that also has that vegas entertainment feel to them like zatanna a stage magician, vixen a fashion model and deadman a acorbat. It's not about shipping it's about world building.
Zatanna wouldn't have to go to limbo for years waiting for a new teambook every time JLD gets cancelled. Plus if zatanna ever get a new solo her home being bludhaven only makes bludhaven a richer city and nightwing's world feels bigger, richer and more connected to other heroes and the larger DCU.
We all know nightwing can't keep a civilian supporting cast to save his life and his connections and are in the hero community so play on it, and we also know character like zatanna needs development and stability outside of team books.
It's a win win, its characters world building together in a shared universe and being bigger than the some of there part's.
[QUOTE=WonderNight;4977083]Sure just have him move back to Gotham and change his name to Batboy and we're good.
I'd just prefer a nightwing/Flash (wally) book.[/QUOTE]
He is basically already there. The Bat office isn’t letting go of Dick, they just aren’t. It’s a title they get to pad their line with and “pretend” to work on with seemingly no accountability or quality control. They basically have a book where they get paid to poop. Trying to figure out how to make Dick generally appealing again while tethered to a lazy Bat office is the character’s unfortunate reality.
[QUOTE=Godlike13;4977166]He is basically already there. The Bat office isn’t letting go of Dick, they just aren’t. It’s a title they get to pad their line with and “pretend” to work on with seemingly no accountability or quality control. They basically have a book where they get paid to poop. Trying figure out how to make Dick generally appealing again while tethered to a lazy Bat office is the character’s unfortunate reality.[/QUOTE]With red hood getting cancelled I can see them cancelling nightwing moving him back to Gotham and throwing him into a ROBIN: the boy wonder's book with the other Robin's. Sad who far dick fallen.
So, I dropped NW a good few issues before seely left and then got wind of Ric and some of the dialogues I saw was cringe so I didn't bother, have things gotten better or worse?
[QUOTE=WonderNight;4977172]With red hood getting cancelled I can see them cancelling nightwing moving him back to Gotham and throwing him into a ROBIN: the boy wonder's book with the other Robin's. Sad who far dick fallen.[/QUOTE]
This ain’t happening
[QUOTE=Godlike13;4976827]You guys are going to love this idea but honestly a Nightwing/Batgirl book might not be the worse idea. Both books numbers arenÂ’t great, Ric and apathy have not been kind. So itÂ’s not like a simple relaunch is going to re-attract general audiences at this point. Nightwing/Batgirl potentially pools their fan bases, is generally favorable, while also combines the work load for an office that struggles to find the work ethic or capacity to properly support multiple books.[/QUOTE]
As much as I dislike the Dick-Babs ship, I've actually considered that too (or a Dick-Damian book, or Dick-Tim, or Dick running the whole Gotham Knights crew, etc). But I don't know that it would work; pooling the fanbases is only viable if there's little overlap between them in the first place. Do most people who buy Nightwing (when it's good) also buy Batgirl (when it's good)? I've never seen market research on it but I'd assume the fanbases are largely the same, so a co-lead title isn't likely to sell much better than the solo's.
Would a simple relaunch be able to get the sales numbers back up on Nightwing? Who knows? But wingnuts are a passionate and loyal fanbase; I mean look at how long it took for the sales on Ric to finally start falling. I'd bet that if you put Dick back in proper shape with a fairly respectable creative team and a shiny new #1 on the cover, sales will start to recover relatively fast. Might take some time for them to get back to their old heights, but I don't think it would take long for sales to start the recovery process.
[QUOTE=yash;4977291]So, I dropped NW a good few issues before seely left and then got wind of Ric and some of the dialogues I saw was cringe so I didn't bother, have things gotten better or worse?[/QUOTE]
I skim from time to time but I don’t put a penny toward this book. It’s wack. A lot of it feels like filler, and at this point I’m dying for it to just be over. It was a mistake and it’s like they just kept adding fuel to the fire. This has been an absolutely tragic time for Nightwing fans honestly. I miss having Dick Grayson in my books, it really feels like the last few writers that have handled him just don’t understand him.
Anyway, I don’t recommend this saga. In about 6 months we’ll see where things are headed
[QUOTE=Ascended;4977339]As much as I dislike the Dick-Babs ship, I've actually considered that too (or a Dick-Damian book, or Dick-Tim, or Dick running the whole Gotham Knights crew, etc). But I don't know that it would work; pooling the fanbases is only viable if there's little overlap between them in the first place. Do most people who buy Nightwing (when it's good) also buy Batgirl (when it's good)? I've never seen market research on it but I'd assume the fanbases are largely the same, so a co-lead title isn't likely to sell much better than the solo's.
[/QUOTE]
It's been mentioned before, and seems to have come up on Twitter more recently, that Seeley and King pitched a "Nightwing And Batgirl" series, but DC didn't take them up on it.
[QUOTE=WonderNight;4977081]So dick and zatanna can't work together as business partners or heroes because of zatanna's relationship with Bruce? Dick and zee don't have to be a ship.
Zatanna would help bludhaven be a richer city that matters beyond nightwing live's there, like black lightning with metropolis a d helps keep it its vegas feel. Plus zatanna needs a place outside of JLD to get some spotlight, we barely get to see zatanna as a stage magician anymore.
As far as zatanna's age, well I do like zatanna's relationship with Bruce I'd prefer zatanna be deaged to her mid to late 20's. I believe zee as a character and performer works better in her 20's than her being close to menopause.[/QUOTE]
God. You are giving me nightmares when Kyle Rayner said Zatanna was old enough to be her mother. That was sad.
What about weird character paring? Like Katana and Dick? I so dar aother pairing is Power Girl.
[QUOTE=WonderNight;4977081]So dick and zatanna can't work together as business partners or heroes because of zatanna's relationship with Bruce? Dick and zee don't have to be a ship.
Zatanna would help bludhaven be a richer city that matters beyond nightwing live's there, like black lightning with metropolis a d helps keep it its vegas feel. Plus zatanna needs a place outside of JLD to get some spotlight, we barely get to see zatanna as a stage magician anymore.
As far as zatanna's age, well I do like zatanna's relationship with Bruce I'd prefer zatanna be deaged to her mid to late 20's. I believe zee as a character and performer works better in her 20's than her being close to menopause.[/QUOTE]
I think one way a de-aged Zatanna would mix well in Dick's world would be if her father performed in Haly's circus for a few years when both Dick and Zatanna were young and the two were childhood friends.
[QUOTE=yash;4977291]So, I dropped NW a good few issues before seely left and then got wind of Ric and some of the dialogues I saw was cringe so I didn't bother, have things gotten better or worse?[/QUOTE]
Worse. They forcing it to be stretched even more, repeating premises they literally just did.
It would also give Dick access to other things. I mean he could be part of JLD at times due to Zataana.
[QUOTE=Ascended;4977339]As much as I dislike the Dick-Babs ship, I've actually considered that too (or a Dick-Damian book, or Dick-Tim, or Dick running the whole Gotham Knights crew, etc). But I don't know that it would work; pooling the fanbases is only viable if there's little overlap between them in the first place. Do most people who buy Nightwing (when it's good) also buy Batgirl (when it's good)? I've never seen market research on it but I'd assume the fanbases are largely the same, so a co-lead title isn't likely to sell much better than the solo's.
Would a simple relaunch be able to get the sales numbers back up on Nightwing? Who knows? But wingnuts are a passionate and loyal fanbase; I mean look at how long it took for the sales on Ric to finally start falling. I'd bet that if you put Dick back in proper shape with a fairly respectable creative team and a shiny new #1 on the cover, sales will start to recover relatively fast. Might take some time for them to get back to their old heights, but I don't think it would take long for sales to start the recovery process.[/QUOTE]
Wingnuts are the easiest sell, it’s getting a general audience that is going to be hard to get back. The readers who could be interested in Dick even though he might not be their very favorite. That’s were numbers over 30k are. Numbers aren’t just going to bounce back after 2 years of being the worse thing on the selves. That’s why quality control and character protection is important. The more shit they produce with the character, the more audiences start seeing the character as shit. Dick will be lucky if his next series levels off in the bottom 30’s now after Ric is done. Remember how people thought all it would take is a decent creative team and a new #1 to get the YJ characters to sell again.
[QUOTE=qwazer07;4977692]God. You are giving me nightmares when Kyle Rayner said Zatanna was old enough to be her mother. That was sad.[/QUOTE]yeah DCU just think zee's age there just show her as her 20s.
Zatanna and Bruce friendship is good but the problem is as batman is aged so to is zatanna. When zatanna is old enough to be tim and stephanie's mother it doesn't feel right and doesn't work with how DC see and uses her.
Travis Moore's Dick for auction
[ATTACH=CONFIG]96875[/ATTACH]
The pretty eyelashes are always there in his art, but he puts an extra pinch on the lips for this one
Shouldn’t he be auctioning his Ric...:cool:
[QUOTE=WonderNight;4978391]yeah DCU just think zee's age there just show her as her 20s.
Zatanna and Bruce friendship is good but the problem is as batman is aged so to is zatanna. When zatanna is old enough to be tim and stephanie's mother it doesn't feel right and doesn't work with how DC see and uses her.[/QUOTE]Even the Young Justice cartoon used her as the Team's "sixth ranger", as TV Tropes calls it (the main team was six members, she was the seventh member of the Team, with one more, Rocket, an "eleventh hour ranger", joining before the end of the first season), instead of as a Justice Leaguer (she did join the League after the timeskip at the start of season 2 though). So it's clear they see her as part of the younger generation. YJ may have combined Dick's and Tim's generations, but Zee was the only traditional (i.e. not Titans graduate) JLA member to end up with the kids instead of the adults.
[QUOTE=Digifiend;4978621]Even the Young Justice cartoon used her as the Team's "sixth ranger", as TV Tropes calls it (the main team was six members, she was the seventh member of the Team, with one more, Rocket, an "eleventh hour ranger", joining before the end of the first season), instead of as a Justice Leaguer (she did join the League after the timeskip at the start of season 2 though). So it's clear they see her as part of the younger generation. YJ may have combined Dick's and Tim's generations, but Zee was the only traditional (i.e. not Titans graduate) JLA member to end up with the kids instead of the adults.[/QUOTE]Also zatanna being younger make her father not being around more impactful, and allows her father to be young enough tohave been around with the JL even as an older member.
I've warmed up to the Dick/Zatanna thing over time. I think the idea is worth exploring either in the main continuity or in an Elseworlds. Dick and Starfire are from two different genres so I have a hard time imagining how a couples book with the two of them could work while Dick/Babs feel like two peas in a pod. There is not enough contrast between them. Dick and Zatanna are performers and have a much lighter view on the world, not to mention a lot of sex appeal. Plus, you can have stories that can slide from regular crime stories to the more fantastical magical stuff or a mix of the two. Dick and Zatanna could start off as a fun, sexy relationship but over time you can see their differences come to light. Maybe Zatanna is splitting her commitment between Dick and her work. She is always away to perform somewhere else while Dick has to go elsewhere. Maybe Dick, the globe trotting bachelor hero prefers having a steady partner with him to share his adventures. Maybe there are situations like with the high end magic stuff where he is completely useless and makes him wonder if Bruce has a point when it comes to contingency plans. I don't know, it could be fun.
Though my ideal would be Zatara and Thomas as friends, Zatanna and Bruce in the same generation and Zachary in the Teen Titans/Young Justice generation. Whilst, I love YJ, in the comics Zatanna debuted only a couple of years after Barry Allen, Hal Jordan and Ray Palmer, making her absolutely a part of the Silver Age revamp/revival of old DC properties. She just never had her own title for quarter of a century. Putting her in the YJ team with Zatara as a Leaguer is like having a teenage Hal or Barry in the Titans while Alan or Jay are League members. Besides, I don't think there is a problem with her being 30+ and the League needs an adult female powerhouse besides Wonder Woman. Zee, Ralph and Tornado fall into that category of JL members who served for more than a hundred issues and yet they are not 'counted' as part of the Big 7. Plus, Zee is one of the few female heroes with a male side kick.
I think both approaches are worth exploring and lets face it, DC has done weirder stuff when it comes to their characters.
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4978373]It would also give Dick access to other things. I mean he could be part of JLD at times due to Zataana.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think the occult fits him like it does Jason Damian or hell even azrael
[QUOTE=Rac7d*;4978757]I don’t think the occult fits him like it does Jason Damian or hell even azrael[/QUOTE]
Precisely why it would be interesting. He would be a fish out of water.
[QUOTE=Godlike13;4978384]Wingnuts are the easiest sell, it’s getting a general audience that is going to be hard to get back. The readers who could be interested in Dick even though he might not be their very favorite. That’s were numbers over 30k are. Numbers aren’t just going to bounce back after 2 years of being the worse thing on the selves. That’s why quality control and character protection is important. The more shit they produce with the character, the more audiences start seeing the character as shit. Dick will be lucky if his next series levels off in the bottom 30’s now after Ric is done. Remember how people thought all it would take is a decent creative team and a new #1 to get the YJ characters to sell again.[/QUOTE]
I'm not disagreeing; like I said it'll take time to get sales back up to where they were. What I'm saying is I don't know if the fanbase between Babs and Dick is separate enough; do most people who read Nightwing also read Batgirl (when the books are good)? If so, a team-up book isn't going to do a lot, other than maybe get the base fans back, who'd return for Dick anyway. I *do* think the character could bounce back *relatively* fast, but that doesn't mean just a couple months. :p
I don't know if YJ is a truly apt comparison though; that book hadn't existed for years, it's a different situation than Nightwing.
While I'd enjoy a Batgirl/Nightwing book, I dont think it'd be a smart sales move. I think both books are capable of being above average sellers. Combining them to one book feels like leaving money on the table.
I do honestly think that a relaunch and a good creative team will really bounce his numbers back up. Just give it a *bit* of publicity. The core fans will be relieved to finally have nightwing on the shelves again, which alone should get us back to the fairly high sales floor Nightwing has normally had. Then making it good... ie giving a good a creative team some freedom... that should get us back into respectable numbers.
As for OTP... while I'm not opposed in theory, that is a tough nut to crack for Dick. You've got two very entrenched camps as far as otp goes already. Furthermore, Dick just really seems to make the most sense with another hero; he's not really one for a normal civilian life so where would he meet and how could he upkeep a "normal" girlfriend. Next, when it comes to pairings, it is just functionally problematic to pair him with an established hero, as she is going to have her own publication schedule and story lines and another creator taking her in their own direction. Original characters are possible, but difficult to pull off. For example, I just really wasn't a fan of Shawn, even thought I loved most of Seeley's work.
I think the best course of action there, honestly, is to not push any pairing as OTP, throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks. Create some characters for Dick to be in a relationship with, take them slow, let it build, see how the fanbase takes is.
Nightwing, inc.
Dick and a rotating cast... Robins, Titans, aliens, magicians, Bats...but mostly Wally!
[QUOTE=Rac7d*;4978757]I don’t think the occult fits him like it does Jason Damian or hell even azrael[/QUOTE]
True but he has fought them before. It would be interesting to see.
All I have to say about Dick in D animated movies is I hope they do better with him. He is a skilled fighter yet he gets his but handed to him a lot
[QUOTE=John Venus;4978742]I've warmed up to the Dick/Zatanna thing over time. I think the idea is worth exploring either in the main continuity or in an Elseworlds. Dick and Starfire are from two different genres so I have a hard time imagining how a couples book with the two of them could work while Dick/Babs feel like two peas in a pod. There is not enough contrast between them. Dick and Zatanna are performers and have a much lighter view on the world, not to mention a lot of sex appeal. Plus, you can have stories that can slide from regular crime stories to the more fantastical magical stuff or a mix of the two. Dick and Zatanna could start off as a fun, sexy relationship but over time you can see their differences come to light. Maybe Zatanna is splitting her commitment between Dick and her work. She is always away to perform somewhere else while Dick has to go elsewhere. Maybe Dick, the globe trotting bachelor hero prefers having a steady partner with him to share his adventures. Maybe there are situations like with the high end magic stuff where he is completely useless and makes him wonder if Bruce has a point when it comes to contingency plans. I don't know, it could be fun.[/QUOTE]People are just going to ship what they want, BUT if DC had a blind match making app, based on their backgrounds, personality, sex appeal and heroics dick and zatanna would easily be each others 1st/top matches.
Heck I'm hoping that zatanna is the mother of dick's daughter the new batwoman beyond because that would then allow batwoman to keep her connection to the supernatural.
[QUOTE=WonderNight;4978391]yeah DCU just think zee's age there just show her as her 20s.
Zatanna and Bruce friendship is good but the problem is as batman is aged so to is zatanna. When zatanna is old enough to be tim and stephanie's mother it doesn't feel right and doesn't work with how DC see and uses her.[/QUOTE]
Well, Zatanna was specifically ID'd as 18 when her father disappeared, and she joined the League about a year later IIRC, and Dick was generally stated as being in his mid to late teens during the same period. So in theory they could be as close as five years apart, which is similar to the Silver & Bronze Age gap between Dick and Babs IIRC.
[QUOTE=WonderNight;4980082]People are just going to ship what they want, BUT if DC had a blind match making app, based on their backgrounds, personality, sex appeal and heroics dick and zatanna would easily be each others 1st/top matches.
Heck I'm hoping that zatanna is the mother of dick's daughter the new batwoman beyond because that would then allow batwoman to keep her connection to the supernatural.[/QUOTE]
Zatanna is in her 40s and she is not getting dunked in a Lazarus pit every now and then
[QUOTE=WonderNight;4980082]People are just going to ship what they want, BUT if DC had a blind match making app, based on their backgrounds, personality, sex appeal and heroics dick and zatanna would easily be each others 1st/top matches.
[/QUOTE]
Says people are going to ship who they want.
Proceeds to ship who they want.
Seriously though, in the YJ Universe I ship the two of them (though tbf I do like the idea that people don't end up with their first girlfriend in that show). Wouldn't make too much sense in the main universe without a pretty hefty reboot/retconning of Zee's history.
Also, while I think the pairing would make sense if you fudged Zatanna's age and history a bit, I think that's true of plenty of female heroes.
Does Zatanna need to be the same age as Dick? Personally speaking on paper it seems like an interesting pairing, but I do not like when Dick’s love interests are shared with others in Batfamily so all things being fair I don’t think Bruce’s should be either. Jason banging Talia made me as uncomfortable as Bruce banging Babs. Hell Catwoman trying to seduce Dick was gross to me. I don’t know where Zatanna lands exactly. As love interests goes she’s not anywhere near Talia or Babs respectively, and there aren’t any mother or mentor connotations, but even so I’m just not sure.