Hard no. Dick and Jason work best as rivals.
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Hard no. Dick and Jason work best as rivals.
[QUOTE=dropkickjake;5032913]Hard no. Dick and Jason work best as rivals.[/QUOTE]
Damn straight.
I mean, I know Dick is a Titan and Titans deal with betrayal and forgiveness like it's going out of style but I feel like there's only so many times someone can shoot a bazooka at you and your adopted family before you stop trusting them.
You guys think DC is going to reveal what's next for Nightwing in this month solicitations?
We know October issue of Red Hood is the last one Lobdell is writing and looks like the current Batgirl run is coming to a end too (October is also her 50th issue).
Looks like the bat tittles are all going to be relaunch.
I think this month solic with show 75 will be the end, then probably when Metal gets mid way they’ll announce whatever. I also think the JL tie in is to hold people over, and not bring Dick back only to have him disappear for months.
[QUOTE=Godlike13;5033251]I think this month solic with show 75 will be the end, then probably when Metal gets mid way they’ll announce whatever. I also think the JL tie in is to hold people over, and not bring Dick back only to have him disappear for months.[/QUOTE]
I still want Snyder to do his Black Label Nightwing book so badly, but we probably have to wait until a few months after Death Metal is over for that :(
That’s still in pitch faze. We’ll be lucky to see that by end of next year.
The only Dick/Jason dynamic I enjoy is one where Dick is genuinely trying to be a cool brother figure to Jason, but given how naturally talented he is and how effortlessly he makes things look, Jason can't help but resent him for being so goddamn good at everything; Dick is that cool older brother that's better than you at so many things and you feel bad for resenting him because he's, well, a good dude. He reminds Jason of his shortcomings and has him forget his strengths, so he likes to do things that will annoy Dick.
Absolutely two brothers who will never get along for long, which can probably work for an arc, but not an ongoing. It works best in doses.
[QUOTE=Drako;5033123]You guys think DC is going to reveal what's next for Nightwing in this month solicitations?
We know October issue of Red Hood is the last one Lobdell is writing and looks like the current Batgirl run is coming to a end too (October is also her 50th issue).
Looks like the bat tittles are all going to be relaunch.[/QUOTE]Except for Detective Comics, yeah, it does. I'm thinking it'll be a linewide relaunch though, as Supergirl, Terrifics, and Shazam are all either over or ending soon, and Teen Titans also looks like it's nearly over (it's lost a member and is about to lose another, with no replacements in sight and leaving a roster of just four). The Justice League books are obviously relaunching too.
I think we're definitely getting a fresh launch after Metal 2. That's supposed to fix the continuity now right? Seems like a natural choice to put some books on hold during the series then start them back up afterwards with either legacy numbering or a fresh #1 (depending on if the legacy numbering would look impressive enough). Same kind of thing we've seen DC do for decades.
I'm fine with Nightwing taking a few months off, if that's the case. As long as he comes back after Metal 2 with a new, quality creative team and good comics.
I would MUCH rather Dick sit unpublished until someone good comes along than get stuck with mediocre creators indefinitely.
Creatively I agree, but from a marketing perspective it’s not the best move. After 2 year of Ric, that has lead to absolutely nothing postitive except for the prospect of Nightwing’s return. To bring him back, only to then do nothing for months on end, wastes any potential marketing momentum his return might have.
Plus let’s be honest with ourselves, odds are they’d make Dick sit unpublished only to still just slap on the most convenient mediocre creators they can find. Like Titans Hunt/Rebirth Titans for example.
[QUOTE=Godlike13;5034795]Creatively I agree, but from a marketing perspective it’s not the best move. After 2 year of Ric, that has lead to absolutely nothing postitive except for the prospect of Nightwing’s return. To bring him back, only to then do nothing for months on end, wastes any potential marketing momentum his return might have. [/QUOTE]
I agree that Dick coming back only to disappear for a few months is damn bad business and wastes his return. But his solo book is being bypassed anyway. His head wound didn't happen in Nightwing, his return isn't happening in Nightwing......and while doing all this in Batman's book puts more eyes on Nightwing in theory, all it really does is reinforce the idea that he's just a sidekick with no value as a solo IP. That's far worse business than putting the Nightwing comic on the shelf for a minute during a big continuity shuffling Event.
I mean come on, these are/should be big moments in the character's narrative....and they're not even happening in his own comic. The Nightwing book isn't being used to generate any hype or interest, DC is just ignoring it while letting everything important play out in Bruce's book. And that's been happening for ages now.
And it looks like Dick will be leading a JL arc during Metal 2, so even if the solo is put on hiatus for a while Dick will still be around.
They put Nightwing's book on hiatus and all we'll miss out on are more bad Jurgens stories. That's a gain as far as I'm concerned. There is such a thing as bad press and the Nightwing comic has been nothing but bad press for years now.
If DC had a gods damn clue, none of this would be happening the way it is. But they're f*cking incompetent and at this point, it'll do Dick more good to have his comic put on hold while Metal 2 plays out. Dick will be showing up in JL, the solo is a worthless pile of crap, and it might give DC the chance to put together a good creative team that can re-launch Dick's solo using the hype and momentum of Metal 2, Dick's return, role in JL, new creators & direction, and probably the new continuity Metal 2 will likely usher in.
It's a sad state of affairs but the solo isn't helping Dick at all, so removing it *temporarily* does nothing but save Dick from some crap stories.
DC, if you're reading this.....just give me the gods damn book. Let me edit and/or write it and dictate what is done with Dick Grayson. Y'all clearly don't give a sh*t, and I'll do it for the smallest fee you're legally allowed to offer. Seriously, it's damn near impossible to do a worse job than you already have; give me the book and you can earn a little goodwill on the idea of giving a fan a shot at the big leagues and save a little cash from my super-low salary. I promise you, within a year I'll have Dick selling twice what he currently is. Give me three years and I'll make him Top 25. Fellow poster Dropkick has read the first draft of a script I wrote; he'll tell you that, at a bare minimum, I'm no worse than Jurgens or Lobdell has been and I'll charge you less.
:p
Hey I’m at the point id rather they kill Dick off as Ric. I’m not saying they shouldn’t kill the book, it needs to die. In my opinion as it is it shouldn’t even be on the selves, and everyone involved should honestly be ashamed of themselves that they actually release it, but I’d let it die with Ric. Rather then have it waste a return by having him come at the very end, and then just have him randomly wonder off somewhere for months till they eventually figure out something to do when its most convenient for them.
But its probably more important the new Batman team get some pandering points, then actually building any momentum or ground for Nightwing itself.
I feel ya, but I don't think it actually matters right now. Jurgens is still gonna be on 75 right? And all the important crap is happening elsewhere, so....it doesn't really matter what the solo does at this point. Virtually nobody is reading it anyway. You're right that it is a waste, but....what *hasn't* been a waste at this point?
Far as I'm concerned the current title and the next few months until Metal 2 ends are just....whatever. When the Event is done and all the presumed continuity BS is finished, that's what I'm waiting for. Will DC give us a decent creator and stop treating Dick like a f*cking sidekick and try to capitalize on his popularity and impressive larger media profile? Or will they keep screwing us and shooting themselves in the foot and leaving money on the table?
I feel like we have reason to have a little bit of hope that things will change under Lee. But I don't think we have reason to think that we're in the clear, either. Nowhere close. Once Metal 2 wraps, I think we'll see what DC under Lee will really look like; that's what I'm waiting for.
Currently nightwing is a over glorified sidekick whose main story's are driven by the batman book. That's why I believe it's time for nightwing to move to a new home because nightwing needs his independence from batman and the bat mythos in order for growth.
My fear for post metal 2 is DC goes with the same old same old not just for nightwing but the team books aswell. The same teams with the same rosters with the same relationships. Straight BORING!
If you had to pick the writers who would you pick?
[QUOTE=WonderNight;5035452]Currently nightwing is a over glorified sidekick whose main story's are driven by the batman book. That's why I believe it's time for nightwing to move to a new home because nightwing needs his independence from batman and the bat mythos in order for growth.
My fear for post metal 2 is DC goes with the same old same old not just for nightwing but the team books aswell. The same teams with the same rosters with the same relationships. Straight BORING![/QUOTE]
Home is where your family is and Dick Grayson won’t leave his family so it is impossible to ever have what your asking
[QUOTE=Rac7d*;5035657]Home is where your family is and Dick Grayson won’t leave his family so it is impossible to ever have what your asking[/QUOTE]
Really the only way would be something happening and Dick and the Bats take a break
[QUOTE=Rac7d*;5035657]Home is where your family is and Dick Grayson won’t leave his family so it is impossible to ever have what your asking[/QUOTE]
This is more of a matter of editorial divisions than the story
What led to Dick being transferred to NTT department again?
[QUOTE=Restingvoice;5035676]This is more of a matter of editorial divisions than the story[/QUOTE]
Exactly. Dick has already left not only Gotham, but the entire Bat editorial group.
And he'd probably be much better off if he did again. The Bat office isn't using him to his potential and everything that matters with him is happening in other books, so what's the damn point? Send him to the JL or Super office, maybe the people there will appreciate him and treat him right!
And the Titans are Dick's family as well. It's not just the Bats. And Dick also has that super well known "uncle" over in Metropolis too.
[QUOTE=Rac7d*;5035657]Home is where your family is and Dick Grayson won’t leave his family so it is impossible to ever have what your asking[/QUOTE]
I get on very well with my family, for the most part. I live in a different city, and am capable of doing my day job without constantly running into them.
Likewise, when I do see them, very few people ask which of my brothers is the Heart and which is the Brain.
Dick should be capable of being a fully independent entity without there being some contrived reason for him not having his tea at Wayne Manor. It's part of being an adult.
On the other hand, if he *is* still viewed as a sidekick - we need better "Dick The Sidekick" stories. Bruce and Dick are the classic comic book double act, with a long history and a rich dynamic - and they're inherently associated with each other. But when was the last story where Bruce and Dick actually teamed up, rather than one making a cameo in the other's book?
[QUOTE=Rac7d*;5035657]Home is where your family is and Dick Grayson won’t leave his family so it is impossible to ever have what your asking[/QUOTE]That's that's Bruce's family, where Bruce is the head not dick. Part of growing up is moving the hell out and starting a family of your own.
But if family is important for Nightwing than can someone explain to me what the heck was the new52 teen titans?
DC had no problem of moving nightwing on that "family".
Nightwing is like the character angel from buffy a great supporting character but wouldn't have ever reached his potential without getting his own show and independence.
But nightwing wouldn't get his independence so nothing going to change for him so I don't care anymore.
[QUOTE=Ascended;5035750]Exactly. Dick has already left not only Gotham, but the entire Bat editorial group.
And he'd probably be much better off if he did again. The Bat office isn't using him to his potential and everything that matters with him is happening in other books, so what's the damn point? Send him to the JL or Super office, maybe the people there will appreciate him and treat him right!
And the Titans are Dick's family as well. It's not just the Bats. And Dick also has that super well known "uncle" over in Metropolis too.[/QUOTE] Right what is the damn point!
Is nightwing in the bat office just to be there? Outside of being fodder for batman, more will they won't they with babs and some interacting with Damian from time to time. What is nightwing gaining from the bat office again?
And as far as family goes isn't dick closer to characters like superman, wally, donna and starfire than he is with 90% of his "batfamily".
Fans overrated how close the batfamily is and act like dick grow up with most of them. The members of the batfamily dick grow up with were just bruce and alfred. Dick didn't meet babs until he was in his mid teens. The rest of the batfamily dick didn't even meet until he was already a grown adult.
The characters that dick did grow up with were Titans like Wally and Donna and Leaguers like Superman. Batfamily is overrated!
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5035652]If you had to pick the writers who would you pick?[/QUOTE]
Matt Fraction, Chip Zdarsky, or hell, maybe even Bendis.
Playing that game makes sad :(. 90% of names are creators not even in the ball park of what we actually end up seeing.
As bad as the Batman family is I'd rather he stay in it than go back to the Titans. The Titans as a franchise has been an unmitigated disaster for nearly 2 decades. Maybe outside of the Johns era team they have been completely irrelevant. The single best thing that happened to Dick as a character in my opinion in the last 25 or so years was becoming a solo character and not having to rely on the Titans. Since it shielded him from their collapse. Branching off from the Titans and even ending his romance from Starfire was the correct move in my opinion given how those characters and franchise imploded. Sure, the Batman family has many issues and I wish things where better there, but it scares me to think about how bad off Dick's character would possibly be if he never became a solo character. He probably would have been killed off like so many of the other original Titans and written out from even more stories.
[QUOTE=WonderNight;5035807]That's that's Bruce's family, where Bruce is the head not dick. Part of growing up is moving the hell out and starting a family of your own.
But if family is important for Nightwing than can someone explain to me what the heck was the new52 teen titans?
DC had no problem of moving nightwing on that "family".
Nightwing is like the character angel from buffy a great supporting character but wouldn't have ever reached his potential without getting his own show and independence.
But nightwing wouldn't get his independence so nothing going to change for him so I don't care anymore.[/QUOTE]
If Nightwing starts a family of his own then Bruce is old and that’s a no no
Just like how supergirl will be 17 forever
This may be an overstatement of Dick's importance, but could it be possible that the Titans franchise would not be in the dire straits that it is right now if Dick had never left?
To be fair, it was floundering when he left, but is it possible that it could have seen a resurgence with the right creative team rather than having lost its focus- being drawn between both younger heroes and also Dick's generation, not really satisfying either party.
[QUOTE=Badou;5035977]As bad as the Batman family is I'd rather he stay in it than go back to the Titans. The Titans as a franchise has been an unmitigated disaster for nearly 2 decades. Maybe outside of the Johns era team they have been completely irrelevant. The single best thing that happened to Dick as a character in my opinion in the last 25 or so years was becoming a solo character and not having to rely on the Titans. Since it shielded him from their collapse. Branching off from the Titans and even ending his romance from Starfire was the correct move in my opinion given how those characters and franchise imploded. Sure, the Batman family has many issues and I wish things where better there, but it scares me to think about how bad off Dick's character would possibly be if he never became a solo character. He probably would have been killed off like so many of the other original Titans and written out from even more stories.[/QUOTE]
Hypothetically speaking, what if they were serious about pushing the Titans and making them prominent again? Which i know is not the case, but lets say someone like Hickman is coming on Titans and gonna do his thing. Would you then be ok if he went back to the Titans exclusively then.
Personally speaking im starting to revalue what i thought i would want with Nightwing. Like im a Dixon guy, that was my entry point, so i always valued his solo. But im coming to the point where im even questioning that. Solo Nightwing is in a rut (even before Ric), Titans is a halfway house and pretty much a non starter when it comes to current comics, the JL to me would just be him further emulating Batman, Grayson was great but even that i think that ship has sailed and now it would be like going backwards, and Ric was just ignorant and insulting. Im glad its ending, but at the same time im not particularly excited that he's probably coming back just to fall back into his old usual.
Okay, how do we do that? Why should the TT be taken seriously? My idea is that something happened to the JL and the TT has to feel that hole. In this forum, we have come up with ideas. What are yours?
I mean so far many of us said he should keep Bludhaven and be acrobat or circus at the strip. That a lot of times the circus will go travel and Dick recuses young Talons from being taken or at least tries to deprogram them. Even saves them to TT or let them be in the circuses life
Relatively on topic.
I will forever recommend to anyone who want to know anything about the titans the Wolfman/Perez run. Old stuff, but good old.
Bye! (vanishes like a good ninja)
[QUOTE=Zaresh;5036084]Relatively on topic.
I will forever recommend to anyone who want to know anything about the titans the Wolfman/Perez run. Old stuff, but good old.
Bye! (vanishes like a good ninja)[/QUOTE]
What could be used to help out the Titans now? Any story ideas? Sometimes the best way to get things back is to go to the past.
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5036085]What could be used to help out the Titans now? Any story ideas? Sometimes the best way to get things back is to go to the past.[/QUOTE]
Regardless of how old and visited it is, there's still stuff you can use or consider, I think.
First of all, they had their own identity as a group. They weren't just a rip off of the JL, like Tim's team, for example. Even when some of them were sidekicks.
They had a healthy balance between teen drama and action/adventure.
They had their own villains and arguably their own plots and support cast.
And they had an overarc that was very selfcontained, I think, for a while at least.
But I was mostly, shamelesly trying to catch readers who would enjoy a read I did enjoy myself. I do the same for JLI when the chance arises xD.
[QUOTE=Pohzee;5036018]This may be an overstatement of Dick's importance, but could it be possible that the Titans franchise would not be in the dire straits that it is right now if Dick had never left?
To be fair, it was floundering when he left, but is it possible that it could have seen a resurgence with the right creative team rather than having lost its focus- being drawn between both younger heroes and also Dick's generation, not really satisfying either party.[/QUOTE]
I don't think it changed much in the end since he was still involved in the Titans books after he became a solo character and moved back to Batman editorial. The quality of their stories just were very poor back then, and how DC looked at their franchises changed with the Titans becoming less important to them until Johns revived it when he changed focus to Tim's generation.
[QUOTE=Godlike13;5036037]Hypothetically speaking, what if they were serious about pushing the Titans and making them prominent again? Which i know is not the case, but lets say someone like Hickman is coming on Titans and gonna do his thing. Would you then be ok if he went back to the Titans exclusively then.
Personally speaking im starting to revalue what i thought i would want with Nightwing. Like im a Dixon guy, that was my entry point, so i always valued his solo. But im coming to the point where im even questioning that. Solo Nightwing is in a rut (even before Ric), Titans is a halfway house and pretty much a non starter when it comes to current comics, the JL to me would just be him further emulating Batman, Grayson was great but even that i think that ship has sailed and now it would be like going backwards, and Ric was just ignorant and insulting. Im glad its ending, but at the same time im not particularly excited that he's probably coming back just to fall back into his old usual.[/QUOTE]
Probably not because I don't know what even a Hickman could do, but obviously I wouldn't say no to him or another big writer wanting to write them. The Batman franchise will always be DC's most important franchise. So even if the situation is far from perfect, and I wish he was used better there, I don't have to worry about the Batman franchise collapsing like with the Titans.
I've repeated it so much now, but at its core the Titans franchise is a team about young heroes. Once those young heroes age into adults and you have generations of heroes behind them now they lose that core identity of what the Titans are. It's a fundamental problem. How do these adult Titan characters fit into this team that is built around being young heroes? I've never seen anyone come up with a real answer. It's always just having them continue doing what they always have where they continue to get treated like young heroes despite being adults where they relive the nostalgia of their past teams, have them just become mentors to the actual young Titans characters which takes away agency from the adults and puts it on the young heroes to be the driving force of the franchise, or just have them operate as a Justice League-lite team. None of those really seem to fix the core issues.
But I don't know what the answer is either. The Titans in other media are as big as they have ever been. You have a live action Titans show going into its 3rd season, you have the Teen Titans GO cartoon which is probably CN's most successful cartoon where it even produced a TTGO movie, you have the Young Justice cartoon which was revived and uses a lot of Titans elements, and there is even rumors of the original TT cartoon being revived as well. You have all this success in other media but none of it is reflected back to the comics. We just had Abnett's Titans book which I still stand by was the worst written Dick Grayson I have ever read, even above Ric, so I really don't know what needs to be done to fix it. I'm at the point where I'd rather have Dick join the JL even if it is a lesser role and have him slowly work his way up the ranks there with all the problems that brings instead of throwing him in another Titans book.
[QUOTE=Pohzee;5036018]This may be an overstatement of Dick's importance, but could it be possible that the Titans franchise would not be in the dire straits that it is right now if Dick had never left?
To be fair, it was floundering when he left, but is it possible that it could have seen a resurgence with the right creative team rather than having lost its focus- being drawn between both younger heroes and also Dick's generation, not really satisfying either party.[/QUOTE]
I don't think Dick's presence would have saved anything. Wolfman ran out of road long before he actually left and DC had no clue how to go forward, or even who and what the Titans were supposed to be. If Dick had stayed in the Titans editorial he just would have gone down with the ship.
That's no reason to keep him in the Bat office now, thirty-ish years later however.
[QUOTE=Godlike13;5036037]Hypothetically speaking, what if they were serious about pushing the Titans and making them prominent again? Which i know is not the case, but lets say someone like Hickman is coming on Titans and gonna do his thing. Would you then be ok if he went back to the Titans exclusively then.[/QUOTE]
Exclusively as in no solo? No, I wouldn't be cool with that. I want Dick to stand on his own as a IP, which he can and has done before and can do again. And yes, he was basically a solo act back in the Dixon days. Part of the Bat clan, but he'll always be part of that family. He still had his own setting, supporting cast, and villains, and important stuff that happened to Nightwing actually happened in the pages of NIGHTWING! He was a solo act then, and there's no reason he can't be again.
Now, I wouldn't argue if DC got serious about the Titans, re-opened their editorial group (Titans don't have their own anymore right?), and sent Dick there where he would headline his solo as well as lead the team in the Titans book. I'd be completely fine with that.
That said, I'm not really hyped about the Titans idea either. Yes, a good creator with a smart idea could come in and revitalize the franchise. OR they could do something new and different, let the characters move on and grow, and see what that looks like.
That's what I'd like to see. Dick's in his mid 20's, maybe even inching up on 30. What's the next phase of his life look like? What's the next step for Dick Grayson? You answer that, and you have a direction to take him. But you gotta answer those questions first. I have answers I like.....but that's just fan fiction. Unless DC takes me up on my offer to take over the character for almost no money we'll never see it. :p
If Dick gives up his solo to go to the Titans, then the Titans writer has full reign to make changes to the character and do more with him than Abnett did. Given that Dick is arguably the most important Titan, I think it would drastically improve the book. Would it be better for Dick? I think so. It'd take him in a more interesting direction than back to C-list solo stories in Blüdhaven.
I mean if we look at YJ Dick did have his own Solo adventures while also being in the team. So if we go with that maybe he should be in case of emergency or just goes on missions with them even now and them. Dick's history with the Titans is also important. So there should be a balance.
Dick was for a time a character defined by his change and growth, and I think we can all agree that right now his biggest issue is stagnation. Reading Mister Miracle, an odd thought that I had was that it would've been nice for Dick to have taken that next step. A mature story about him adapting to fatherhood. But obviously that story has been told and it could never happen because that would definitely start to age Bruce up quite rapidly.
Between Wally and Roy, even Donna, I feel like we have seen that with his generation before. Though I agree with what your getting at. When he was raising Damian I think that was a clever maturation. Familiar yet different.
I do think you are touching on something though, how do you build on Dick’s maturation going forward. With the catch that you don’t want to age the world, and don’t want to just do the same thing that was done with those around him. Cause I’m sorry but that’s boring.
I know its been discussed on here before to generally mixed reception, but the only thing that really comes to mind is taking on a sidekick (Damian or otherwise) or taking a mentorship role by expanding the Titans X-Men style.
There's some obvious hangups, both ideas have already been explored to some degree, such as with Damian, and it also runs the risk of making Dick take the backseat in his own title to develop new or younger characters. But I feel as though a natural progression for the DCU's first sidekick would be to take on one of his own. The previously mentioned pitfalls could be avoided by careful writing to keep the focus on Dick. To make the stories a reflection of his own time as a sidekick, using his insights and experiences to guide his teaching methods. Everyone before Dick started this as independently as an adult- he is the first one to have grown up in this universe. He can empathize with the frustrations of sidekicks, and could perhaps better gauge their capabilities and manage their frustrations. Focusing on this insight as well as contrasting his mentorship versus the mentorship that he received from Batman could keep the focus on Dick.
There's some other obvious potential benefits that have been discussed to this, such as building up the Nightwing brand. Throw the kid on the Teen Titans or Young Justice to build the presence of Nightwing in the universe alongside Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, etc. Have Damian express insecurities about feelings of jealousy and replacement if Dick takes on a new sidekick.
Better or more ideas are welcome of course. He could buy a house and get a mortgage or something.