Dick Grayson: Robin / Nightwing Appreciation 2020

I think I'm starting to get what Badou's saying about Bludhaven being a problem.
It's not that the city in itself is bad, but it's because he has a city that he's stuck in a city.

There may even be some design parameters they have to follow, patterned after Batman. Batman in Gotham, Batgirl of Burnside, Nightwing in Bludhaven, solving crimes within the city.

Even if they don't have that parameter or that's not an enforced rule... if Dick is given a city, the writer's first thought wouldn't be that he should go out.

He has a city, so he will take care of the city. Going out happens every once in a while. Just like Batman. The writers probably subconsciously follow Batman's example.

Seeley is different because he didn't start with a city, he started already global and then given a city, so the city just became part of his already larger world.

Other writers though, started with the thinking that they should play with the city.

It's like a mindset trap

[QUOTE=Restingvoice;5049986]I think I'm starting to get what Badou's saying about Bludhaven being a problem.

It's like a mindset trap[/QUOTE]

It is, but just like Descartes' "demon world" the way to escape is to simply employ some logic.

Dick having a city makes writers want to fit him within the classic Batman mold. So avoiding the problems of Bat-lite is as simple as being aware of them and writing away from it. The city is only a chain around Dick's neck if the writer allows it to happen.

[QUOTE=Ascended;5050121]It is, but just like Descartes' "demon world" the way to escape is to simply employ some logic.

Dick having a city makes writers want to fit him within the classic Batman mold. So avoiding the problems of Bat-lite is as simple as being aware of them and writing away from it. The city is only a chain around Dick's neck if the writer allows it to happen.[/QUOTE]

When did Bat-lite perception first start?

I love that we had a Nightwing comic yesterday and no one even bothered to mention. :D
We are all just waiting for this to be over.

New comic day is still Wednesdays for me. Im not going to my shop 2 days in a rows. Though Jurgan's writing is so decompressed and shallow, there really isn't much to talk about beyond what we already talked about from the marketing. He does little beyond stretching out what we already know from the covers and general marketing. 75% of this weeks issue is just recap. Using Bea explaining to Babs to tell readers what has gone on in his run and put emphasis on his MacGuffin. While the other 25% is just what the marketing has revealed.

[QUOTE=Restingvoice;5050403]When did Bat-lite perception first start?[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure. I mean, where do we even draw that line? Dick was Robin after all; he's always had plenty in common with Bruce.

Far as I know, the Bat-lite stuff really started to become super obvious with the first solo. The Titans had become a dumpster fire and DC wanted to move Dick away from the property as much as they could. To his credit, Dixon did do a lot to establish that Nightwing was not just Batman Jr., despite a lot of similarities between them and Dick's return to street level adventures, but as less talented writers took over the book the Bat-lite parallels became more and more prevalent. I don't think I could point to any single issue and say "This is where it started." I think it's a slope; there's always been a lot of the Bat in Dick's makeup (again; he was Robin so of course there is) but it slowly took over as Dick's more unique traits became de-emphasized.

Like the Batgod, I don't think it's something that just happened, but was a slow evolution as writers looked at the work of better creators and took all the wrong lessons away from the work.

[QUOTE=Drako;5050417]I love that we had a Nightwing comic yesterday and no one even bothered to mention. :D
We are all just waiting for this to be over.[/QUOTE]

We did? Whatever. I'm surprised godlike is still reading that crap; I wouldn't pay good money for this. I wouldn't read it if it were free.

[QUOTE=Drako;5050417]I love that we had a Nightwing comic yesterday and no one even bothered to mention. :D
We are all just waiting for this to be over.[/QUOTE]

Honestly, i thougth that you people were exagerating about how bad it was....then i read the first few issues and man i didn't to continue, at least the 49 issues before this started were mostly enjoyable.

I’m oc. I hate myself for still reading it. And now with COVID, I’m trying to get what I can to help my shop.

[QUOTE=Godlike13;5050651]And now with COVID, I’m trying to get what I can to help my shop.[/QUOTE]

Well I can definitely respect that. I hope all of us are doing what we can to help our local shops, and the industry in general, right now.

I *did* pick up Lost Carnival the other day, but haven't had a chance to read the whole thing yet.

Ya, grabbed that too. Haven’t read it yet though.

[QUOTE=Ascended;5050574]I'm not sure. I mean, where do we even draw that line? Dick was Robin after all; he's always had plenty in common with Bruce.

Far as I know, the Bat-lite stuff really started to become super obvious with the first solo. The Titans had become a dumpster fire and DC wanted to move Dick away from the property as much as they could. To his credit, Dixon did do a lot to establish that Nightwing was not just Batman Jr., despite a lot of similarities between them and Dick's return to street level adventures, but as less talented writers took over the book the Bat-lite parallels became more and more prevalent. I don't think I could point to any single issue and say "This is where it started." I think it's a slope; there's always been a lot of the Bat in Dick's makeup (again; he was Robin so of course there is) but it slowly took over as Dick's more unique traits became de-emphasized.

Like the Batgod, I don't think it's something that just happened, but was a slow evolution as writers looked at the work of better creators and took all the wrong lessons away from the work.
[/QUOTE]

The line started when it becomes unacceptable. For example, as Robin, he's created to be a sidekick, so saying he's secondary to Batman is not wrong.

So at which point that being a Bat-lite becomes wrong for him?

for me, at first, it was when I heard he has become Batman, has his own Robin, and became a Leaguer because at that point they sound like an equal. However, it seems DC and Batman fans view it as a temporary filler instead of a full circle. So they never really acknowledge it.

Then I found out that Nightwing is already an attempt to separate himself, and it happened in Titans instead of in a Batman family story. His marriage with Starfire was another attempt.

So it may start earlier than I thought.

Of course, I don't blame DC wanting to save Nightwing from Titans losing profit by folding him back to the Bat-family, but that's also when I thought Nightwing was always the identity between Robin and Batman because that is how it's portrayed in larger media. Nightwing is always a part of and follows Batman, and when I first got into comics I'm surprised that fans view Nightwing more than that, because at first, I thought that was all he is, a sidekick, just an older one.

The question is maybe a bigger event. I mean what if Dick had his own big event. Where the Batfam and TT have to come together?

If Dick were to get a big Event.....no Batman. Tim and Damian are fine; those are Dick's little brothers, but if Bruce is involved it'll either result in Bruce taking over because DC can't resist doing that, or it'll look like Bruce *letting* Dick be in charge, which isn't going to help Nightwing either.

The only role Batman should have in a Nightwing Event is as the damsel in distress.

[QUOTE=Ascended;5050574]I'm not sure. I mean, where do we even draw that line? Dick was Robin after all; he's always had plenty in common with Bruce. [/QUOTE]

He does have similarities, but Dick is a different individual to Bruce. For starters, he is a team player. He also leads from the front and isn't afraid to be seen in public. There was a time where, if Nightwing was in the room, the other heroes listened. The only other hero who commands that respect is Superman.

Giving him his own solo was a great start. I can see what they were trying to do, but the execution steered to close to familiar territory. Dick was given his own city, but that city was said to be even worse than Gotham. He had his own version of The Batmobile. Plus Bludhaven was just down the road from Gotham. There are a few more examples, but they did play it safe when they kicked off his first solo.

Dick shares a similar backstory to Bruce, but Nightwing hasn't allowed that tragedy to consume him the way Bruce has. Before the current character assassination he is undergoing, Dick enjoyed being a hero. He always had a smile on his face when beating up on bad guys. Bruce doesn't necessarily enjoy being Batman. He does it out of a compulsive need to prevent what happened to him from occurring to others. Not for entirely for altruistic reasons.

One thing I often didn't like is when writer's tried to play Dick up as a great detective. He knows proper police procedure (how could he not when being raised by Bruce), but he hasn't got that detective mindset like Bruce has. As Robin I could see that stuff boring him when he would rather be doing somersaults from Gotham skyscrapers.

[QUOTE=Ascended;5051314]If Dick were to get a big Event.....no Batman. Tim and Damian are fine; those are Dick's little brothers, but if Bruce is involved it'll either result in Bruce taking over because DC can't resist doing that, or it'll look like Bruce *letting* Dick be in charge, which isn't going to help Nightwing either.

The only role Batman should have in a Nightwing Event is as the damsel in distress.[/QUOTE]

And that's why we will never have a big Event for Dick.

The problem is Dick's current world is too connected to Batman, so any big Event will involve Batman. And DC will always choose Batman to be the main hero.

Not to mention that I really doubt DC would allow Batman to be the damsel in distress.

[QUOTE=Konja7;5051460]And that's why we will never have a big Event for Dick.

The problem is Dick's current world is too connected to Batman, so any big Event will involve Batman. And DC will always choose Batman to be the main hero.

Not to mention that I really doubt DC would allow Batman to be the damsel in distress.[/QUOTE]

Can't have Dick getting too big, can we? DC wouldn't know what to do :p

[QUOTE=Konja7;5051460]And that's why we will never have a big Event for Dick.

The problem is Dick's current world is too connected to Batman, so any big Event will involve Batman. And DC will always choose Batman to be the main hero.

Not to mention that I really doubt DC would allow Batman to be the damsel in distress.[/QUOTE]
This is exactly what I've been sayin, Nightwing is nothing more than an adult sidekick for batman. EVERYTHING about current nightwing ether come from or is tied to the bat mythos and franchise.

There's a whole DCU out there full of characters and places but nightwing has to just be limited to batman's back pocket. This sucks

Currently nightwing is no more independent or his own man than golden age Robin was just look at his last Issue. I know going back to batman in the 90s helped nightwing but this ain't the 90s or 2000s anymore.

[QUOTE=WonderNight;5051483]This is exactly what I've been sayin, Nightwing is nothing more than an adult sidekick for batman. EVERYTHING about current nightwing ether come from or is tied to the bat mythos and franchise.

There's a whole DCU out there full of characters and places but nightwing has to just be limited to batman's back pocket. This sucks

Currently nightwing is no more independent or his own man than golden age Robin was just look at his last Issue. I know going back to batman in the 90s helped nightwing but this ain't the 90s or 2000s anymore.[/QUOTE]

I think the current situation is worse than 90s or 2000s.

I mean, there are many places in the whole DCU, but most are in a pretty bad situation. Also, I'm not sure where he might fit in and what role he would have.

Even Grayson was still part of Batman editorial, Dick was just away from Batman family events (for a while), because they don't want to use him.

[QUOTE=Somecrazyaussie;5051479]Can't have Dick getting too big, can we? DC wouldn't know what to do :p[/QUOTE]

They are definitely scared of it. :p

And no, we won't get an Event for Nightwing.....at least not with things the way they were under Didio. And I doubt we'll get one under Lee, though we haven't seen enough of him as sole publisher to *really* know.

*Maybe* we get some kind of Titans Event, with Dick having a big role, but that's probably as close as we'll get, and I find even that to be pretty damn unlikely.

Things are definitely worse than the 90's or 00's. Back then, Nightwing didn't get a ton of effort from DC either but they at least treated him as a solo property instead of a f*cking sidekick.

But sooner or later, DC will recognize the potential they're wasting and decide they'd like to make more money. Oh, speaking of money, does anyone have any idea how Lost Carnival sold?

I mean ignoring Dc. If Dick were to have his own main event. What would it be? Talking outside the box. If we were to take Dick outside would Dc is allowing him to be. He needs a break from his family. Something not dealing with Batman. I mean it would be a little too easy. We had something like that. Okay many say they want Dick on JL. So what if Dick had a big event that had to deal with saving the JL. Or too crazy? The JL goes missing who better to take over than the Titans. They have to figure out where the JL has gone.

I wouldn't even bother with the "save the League" stuff. That's a common enough theme in Titans and Nightwing history. If I could I'd ignore the League completely, but to ensure the stakes of an Event seem high enough you *have* to use them in some fashion.....so instead of saving them, I'd have Dick take some of them down. Show us that Bruce isn't the only baseline human who can pull down a god.

As for the hook? You've got a few options, and none of them are crazy great. You can pick a threat from within Dick's solo mythos, which basically limits you to Blockbuster and the Bludhaven mobs and Raptor. It'd take a lot of work to make them seem like a big enough problem to warrant a Event. Or you can grab a threat that Dick has co-ownership of, like the Court of Owls or Spyral. Arguably the best approach here, and one would assume that the Event would shift the villain into Dick's rogues gallery completely. Or you bring in a brand new threat nobody has heard of. Not a bad way to go but the lack of precedent will have to be balanced out carefully, so you don't look like you're trying too hard (avoid red shirt-ing someone, yknow?). Last option, you take a established threat Dick has no prior connection to, like Professor Zoom....but that just looks random and weird.

It it were me? I have an idea in my head for the Flamebird and Nightwing of Kryptonian myth coming to earth and being curious about the humans using their names. I won't bore people with the details, but it's an example of using an IP that Dick is connected to (his name comes from Superman) but doesn't really own.

How about Dick starts a generational revolt against the authoritarianism of the JL. Or what about Dick starts a Titans Lives Matters movement.

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;5052876]I mean ignoring Dc. If Dick were to have his own main event. What would it be? Talking outside the box. If we were to take Dick outside would Dc is allowing him to be. He needs a break from his family. Something not dealing with Batman. I mean it would be a little too easy. We had something like that. Okay many say they want Dick on JL. So what if Dick had a big event that had to deal with saving the JL. Or too crazy? The JL goes missing who better to take over than the Titans. They have to figure out where the JL has gone.[/QUOTE]

That's been done and would only retread the same ground narrative wise.


The truth is, you couldn't give Dick a event. Purely because DC haven't done enough to build up his own mythos. You need a solid foundation with which to build off of. They've established a few new ripples with the Court Of Owls, Raptor and Spyral. But more needs to be done - they need to establish a solid support cast, reestablish his own rogues, give him his own day job etc.

I think Ascended is on the right path. But I wouldn't involve the Titans. I'd have the younger heroes who aren't affiliated with any titans/young justice roster suddenly go missing. Preferably ones without any mentors to notice them missing. Somehow, Dick gets drawn into it (maybe there is a teen hero in Bludhaven who he saves from getting kidnapped) and Dick mounts a rescue mission. The only issue is you need the League and Titans off the board so he is forced to go solo. He saves them, assembles them into a team, then goes on to mentor them himself.

[QUOTE=Godlike13;5053054]How about Dick starts a generational revolt against the authoritarianism of the JL. Or what about Dick starts a Titans Lives Matters movement.[/QUOTE]they wouldn't take him seriously. They'd know he'd just follow his bat daddy's orders. They may follow jason through.

[QUOTE=Godlike13;5053054]How about Dick starts a generational revolt against the authoritarianism of the JL. Or what about Dick starts a Titans Lives Matters movement.[/QUOTE]

They will just have Dick apologize and ask Bruce if he is disappointed in him like last time. Then Roy will punch Dick in the face again, haha.

[QUOTE=Godlike13;5053054]How about Dick starts a generational revolt against the authoritarianism of the JL. Or what about Dick starts a Titans Lives Matters movement.[/QUOTE]

Actually it would work and be perfect...

Only thing which you need is bring Pre-Flashpoint timeline back with Conner,Cassie,Bart,Tim....as the second Titans team.

Its a good Idea, but he needs more support and this support can come from Conner, who was the biggest Titans Hero in Pre-Flashpoint, since he died in IC.

[QUOTE=Godlike13;5053054]How about Dick starts a generational revolt against the authoritarianism of the JL. Or what about Dick starts a Titans Lives Matters movement.[/QUOTE]

Titans [I]is[/I] the generational revolt.

Speaking of stories, I just want things that make sense...

[QUOTE=Somecrazyaussie;5053144]
I think Ascended is on the right path. But I wouldn't involve the Titans.[/QUOTE]

Best to leave the Titans team out of it, at least for the most part. Given the state of the franchise it won't do Dick many favors to include them. More like a noose around his neck. Plus, the Titans largely exist just for Events to eat them and prove how "serious" the threat is, and a Nightwing Event killing off the Titans' dross wouldn't be a good look.

However, using some of Dick's closest friends like Donna and Wally would be viable. They're former Titans, but far more pertinent is the fact they're Dick's BFF's.

[B]NIGHTWING #75[/B]
[I]written by DAN JURGENS
art by TRAVIS MOORE and RONAN CLIQUET
cover by TRAVIS MOORE
variant cover by ALAN QUAH
ON SALE 10/20/20
$5.99 US | 48 PAGES | FC | DC
In the wake of "The Joker War," Nightwing is back—but is he back for good? And does he remember Bea? With the help of Batman, Batgirl, his Teen Titans friends, and even Alfred, Nightwing must decide for himself which path to take. Then, when KGBeast discovers Nightwing is still alive, his street credibility is on the line if he doesn't go to finish the job he started when he tried to kill Nightwing…and missed! Nightwing better watch his back is he wants to be back for good![/I]

It’s not marked as final issues but Batgirl is with the same page count. Though with the 5G plans changed maybe it’s not and they are just gonna keep it going as long as Jurgens wants to write it. Which would be a terrible decision cause Jurgens has been terrible, and he is completely out of touch on this title.
They need to get him and his mediocrity off and end this book. No one gives a shit about if he remembers Bea. The need to distance him from these last 2 years of dog crap that no one liked. They can’t remain this out of touch. The solic should be screaming Ric is gone! Not leaving Ric still in question. They need to accept their failure and move on, definitely. Not let the worse selling Nightwing writer continue to do what he’s been doing.

[IMG]https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/BJocimVj3oB8Fr4Na9t9rU-650-80.jpg.webp[/IMG]

NIGHTWING #75
written by DAN JURGENS
art by TRAVIS MOORE and RONAN CLIQUET
cover by TRAVIS MOORE
variant cover by ALAN QUAH
ON SALE 10/20/20
$5.99 US | 48 PAGES | FC | DC
In the wake of "The Joker War," Nightwing is back—but is he back for good? And does he remember Bea? With the help of Batman, Batgirl, his Teen Titans friends, and even Alfred, Nightwing must decide for himself which path to take. Then, when KGBeast discovers Nightwing is still alive, his street credibility is on the line if he doesn't go to finish the job he started when he tried to kill Nightwing…and missed! Nightwing better watch his back is he wants to be back for good!

More Dan Jurgens... great...

[IMG]https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/rFAP8JQCAeKc9jXCwmahBV-650-80.jpg.webp[/IMG]

He is also in both Justice Leagues issues of October.
I guess we have to wait until Death Metal ends for a new writer.

[QUOTE=Drako;5053657][IMG]https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/BJocimVj3oB8Fr4Na9t9rU-650-80.jpg.webp[/IMG]

NIGHTWING #75
written by DAN JURGENS
art by TRAVIS MOORE and RONAN CLIQUET
cover by TRAVIS MOORE
variant cover by ALAN QUAH
ON SALE 10/20/20
$5.99 US | 48 PAGES | FC | DC
In the wake of "The Joker War," Nightwing is back—but is he back for good? And does he remember Bea? With the help of Batman, Batgirl, his Teen Titans friends, and even Alfred, Nightwing must decide for himself which path to take. Then, when KGBeast discovers Nightwing is still alive, his street credibility is on the line if he doesn't go to finish the job he started when he tried to kill Nightwing…and missed! Nightwing better watch his back is he wants to be back for good!

More Dan Jurgens... great...

[IMG]https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/rFAP8JQCAeKc9jXCwmahBV-650-80.jpg.webp[/IMG]

He is also in both Justice Leagues issues of October.
I guess we have to wait until Death Metal ends for a new writer.[/QUOTE]

Batgirl and Outsiders are ending in October. I also read that Red Hood will end soon.

So, Nigtwing may just last one month more.

[QUOTE=Konja7;5053666]
So, Nigtwing may just last one month more.[/QUOTE]

Do we have good reason to think it'll be cancelled? Or are we just assuming it will be?

[QUOTE=Drako;5053657][IMG]https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/BJocimVj3oB8Fr4Na9t9rU-650-80.jpg.webp[/IMG]

NIGHTWING #75
written by DAN JURGENS
art by TRAVIS MOORE and RONAN CLIQUET
cover by TRAVIS MOORE
variant cover by ALAN QUAH
ON SALE 10/20/20
$5.99 US | 48 PAGES | FC | DC
In the wake of "The Joker War," Nightwing is back—but is he back for good? And does he remember Bea? With the help of Batman, Batgirl, his Teen Titans friends, and even Alfred, Nightwing must decide for himself which path to take. Then, when KGBeast discovers Nightwing is still alive, his street credibility is on the line if he doesn't go to finish the job he started when he tried to kill Nightwing…and missed! Nightwing better watch his back is he wants to be back for good!

More Dan Jurgens... great...

[IMG]https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/rFAP8JQCAeKc9jXCwmahBV-650-80.jpg.webp[/IMG]

He is also in both Justice Leagues issues of October.
I guess we have to wait until Death Metal ends for a new writer.[/QUOTE]
I guess this brings this whole mess of a story full-circle with Dick fighting KGBeast.

I wonder who of the Titans shows up. And they probably won't bother to explain why none of them (Cough)Raven, Ms. Martian(Cough) tried to fix things.

[QUOTE=Ascended;5053826]Do we have good reason to think it'll be cancelled? Or are we just assuming it will be?[/QUOTE]

It’s the assumption that since a bunch of other series are ending and series writers are finishing their last arcs with fillin stories taking place for those not ending that Death Metal is going to relaunch most if not all series with a new #1.

[QUOTE=Ascended;5053826]Do we have good reason to think it'll be cancelled? Or are we just assuming it will be?[/QUOTE]

If is indeed cancelled, is to be relaunch with a new creative team. Batgirl and Nightwing are good selling books for DC not to have in the market.

You know, I'm somehow just glad, that right after his return Dick will get a chance to kick KGBeast's ass.

It’s Jurgens though. So expect it dragged out, fruitless, and unsatisfying. Like the return of his memories.

Personally I’m probably going to go read the Justice League tie-in by Williamson. Mainly for Duck with Cyborg and Starfire again.

[QUOTE=sifighter;5054114]Personally I’m probably going to go read the Justice League tie-in by Williamson. Mainly for Duck with Cyborg and Starfire again.[/QUOTE]



Presumably, this suggests Williamson will be spinning it off into a new "Titans" book rather than a Nightwing solo.

There are worse things in the world.

[QUOTE=Claude;5054243]Presumably, this suggests Williamson will be spinning it off into a new "Titans" book rather than a Nightwing solo.

There are worse things in the world.[/QUOTE]
Joshua Williamson writing a [I]Titans[/I] book? That...that honestly wouldn't be too bad to be honest.