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[QUOTE=godisawesome;4805425]I think writers were less interested in rewriting the Pre-Crisis Bruce-Dick-Babs era in part because once you get to the period where it’s a three way partnership, or even just the two-way partnership between Dick and Bruce, because it’s harder to figure out what dynamic character growth you can try and out in there.
When Dick has *just* become Robin, or Babs has *just* become Batgirl, it’s easy to figure out how you add something new to the story, since those characters’ introductions usually weren’t very nuanced or super-heavy into good internal characterization.
You kind of need a great new conflict, villain, or Batman Family interaction to sell the story. And you really, *really* don’t want a screwy Batman Family interactions - like that one story that tried to set up Babs and Dick’s romance from Robin/Batgirl to Nightwing/Oracle... and wound up having Dick sleep with Babs right after TKJ, then like a week later drop off a wedding invitation for his and Starfire’s nuptials.[/QUOTE]
Well, we don't talk about the Nightwing Annual. That's just bad. :)
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[QUOTE=David Walton;4804706]
Something interesting about Batman's history (at least in my opinion): there's a 'lost era' in between year three and I don't know, year nine or ten? Mostly because the pre-Crisis stuff still kinda sorta happened but the tone of those stories doesn't fit post-Crisis continuity. So you've got that big stretch of stories between Dick Grayson becoming Robin and Nightwing. It's like you jump almost immediately from year three to the Wolfman/Perez Teen Titans stuff and Nightwing: Year One because everyone wants to either write stories about those first three years or the later stuff.[/QUOTE]
In my headcanon, I sub in the BTAS episodes and Batman & Robin Adventures comics to fill out the "Golden Years" era. Another headcanon is that Dick always alternated between wearing shorts and long-pants with his Robin costume depending on the weather (borrowing from the suit's continuity cameo in Nightwing Year One) so, especially after Morrison introduced the "everything counts" approach, the '60s Batman / BTAS / and '66 Batman comic and Timmverse comics all kind of slot into this era, even though it's not a perfect 1:1 fit.
I would love a "Legends Of The Dynamic Duo" title that focuses on this era instead of the "Year One"-verse.
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I’m not one to argue that Batman: Hush was well written... but since I decided I had to watch the animated adaptation, I feel I have to point out that Loeb’s story worked much better than its adaptation, as lite-weight as it was. Joker being almost killed works better when there’s the history of Joker actually damaging multiple members of both Batman and Gordon’s family, the tease with Jason was a fat red herring but it’s better than just making Tommy Elliot one and then killing off both him and Riddler... and I almost find the comic version of Vatwoman and Batman’s relationship nuanced in comparison to the movie version.
And would it kill someone at Warner Bros animation to make reading Vengeance of Bane required reading before they write Bane in a movie or cartoon?
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[QUOTE=gregpersons;4805623]
I would love a "Legends Of The Dynamic Duo" title that focuses on this era instead of the "Year One"-verse.[/QUOTE]
I've long wanted a Legends of the Boy Wonder that covers all the Robins (back and forth to the prerogative of the writers and editors). Get some Y4-7 Dick Grayson, some pre-Morrison Damian, some lost Jason Todd Robin adventures, etc.
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[QUOTE=Wrestler;4805160]Thank you for the input, I'll check this New omnibus version when I get in the Knightfall story, I'm almost there and really looking forward to it, after so many positive comments.
About the Haunted Knight, I've read and enjoy it, but I've decided to scratch it from my list because of the timing. It goes on a period of 3 years (3 different halloweens), it would mess the 10 year period until The Cult (yes, I've thought of some logical timeline that would end up with 9 years and some months when Bruce says he is almost hitting 10 years being Batman on The Cult), unless maybe if you consider it 3 halloweens, but not back-to-back, between the stories. Even if you put it in the list, it should go after The Long Halloween/Dark Victory saga, because they mention Two-face.
Catwoman When in Rome I deliberately decided to ignore, but I agree with you that its inclusion would make the list more complete.
A lonely place of dying I'm reading after Blind Justice and The many deaths of the batman, it seems Batman was still alone in these 2 stories, without Tim Drake as his sidekick, but I think either way would be fine.[/QUOTE]
DC got stuck on the 10 year timeline for pretty much the entire 1990s. You mentioned the reference in The Cult, which came out in 1988. By the time of No Man’s Land in 1999, they were on Year 11 (Year One being “ten years ago”) per some references in Rucka written issues. Also the 10 part 1999 World’s Finest miniseries was structured to tell the history of Batman and Superman, 1 issue per timeline year. In the 2000s, they expanded the timeline to 12 then 15 years I believe.
Blind Justice was in Detective 588-600, which came out at the same time as The Many Deaths of Batman in Batman 433-435. Those were 50th anniversary of Batman stores released in the spring of 1989. A Lonely Place of Dying was later in 1989. So you are reading those in the correct order.
I started reading comics just before Knightfall began, so that was my major introduction. I also endorse the newest collected editions, the 3 omnibuses or the 2018-2019 25th anniversary trade paperbacks. They have done the best job of collecting the story so far. Anything that was published earlier left various stuff out. They still left out Sword of Azrael though, I would recommend reading that before anything Knightfall related.
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[QUOTE=kevink31593;4805717]DC got stuck on the 10 year timeline for pretty much the entire 1990s. You mentioned the reference in The Cult, which came out in 1988. By the time of No Man’s Land in 1999, they were on Year 11 (Year One being “ten years ago”) per some references in Rucka written issues. Also the 10 part 1999 World’s Finest miniseries was structured to tell the history of Batman and Superman, 1 issue per timeline year. In the 2000s, they expanded the timeline to 12 then 15 years I believe.
Blind Justice was in Detective 588-600, which came out at the same time as The Many Deaths of Batman in Batman 433-435. Those were 50th anniversary of Batman stores released in the spring of 1989. A Lonely Place of Dying was later in 1989. So you are reading those in the correct order.
I started reading comics just before Knightfall began, so that was my major introduction. I also endorse the newest collected editions, the 3 omnibuses or the 2018-2019 25th anniversary trade paperbacks. They have done the best job of collecting the story so far. Anything that was published earlier left various stuff out. They still left out Sword of Azrael though, I would recommend reading that before anything Knightfall related.[/QUOTE]
Thanks, I didn't know about No Man's Land mentioning Bruce being Batman for ten years, it kind of sucks because I had a hard time putting the batman timeline together to hit 10 years at The Cult, I think it's better to ignore that reference I guess.
About the Knightfall, yes, I'l begin with the four issues of Sword of Azrael, I've found a reading order list of knightfall on comicbookherald website.
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I'm curious - does anyone want to do some kind of structured exploration of this era? Taking a week or a month to go over each year of the era, not doing a reading or rereading, but just going through what was published, what has lasted, forgotten gems, etc?
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[QUOTE=godisawesome;4805425]I think writers were less interested in rewriting the Pre-Crisis Bruce-Dick-Babs era in part because once you get to the period where it’s a three way partnership, or even just the two-way partnership between Dick and Bruce, because it’s harder to figure out what dynamic character growth you can try and out in there.
When Dick has *just* become Robin, or Babs has *just* become Batgirl, it’s easy to figure out how you add something new to the story, since those characters’ introductions usually weren’t very nuanced or super-heavy into good internal characterization.
You kind of need a great new conflict, villain, or Batman Family interaction to sell the story. And you really, *really* don’t want a screwy Batman Family interactions - like that one story that tried to set up Babs and Dick’s romance from Robin/Batgirl to Nightwing/Oracle... and wound up having Dick sleep with Babs right after TKJ, then like a week later drop off a wedding invitation for his and Starfire’s nuptials.[/QUOTE]
Oh, definitely. There's less room to work with and the danger is in a story that seems like it might be fun but not relevant, since you can't re-invent the rogues during that stretch. But I do think there are some interesting possibilities to work with, and those only grow over time. Imagine covering Robin's first encounter with Kite-Man now, given his tragic backstory.
And there's also a trick that the writers used a few times in the 90s, of inventing a 'forgotten' villain who only encountered the heroes once or twice in an earlier era and has recently returned. Or spin current events out of a recently revealed past. Be interesting to get a "The War of Jokes and Riddles" style story that covered the Dynamic Duo era.
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[QUOTE=gregpersons;4805623]In my headcanon, I sub in the BTAS episodes and Batman & Robin Adventures comics to fill out the "Golden Years" era. Another headcanon is that Dick always alternated between wearing shorts and long-pants with his Robin costume depending on the weather (borrowing from the suit's continuity cameo in Nightwing Year One) so, especially after Morrison introduced the "everything counts" approach, the '60s Batman / BTAS / and '66 Batman comic and Timmverse comics all kind of slot into this era, even though it's not a perfect 1:1 fit.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, this works!
[QUOTE]I would love a "Legends Of The Dynamic Duo" title that focuses on this era instead of the "Year One"-verse.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=bob.schoonover;4805705]I've long wanted a Legends of the Boy Wonder that covers all the Robins (back and forth to the prerogative of the writers and editors). Get some Y4-7 Dick Grayson, some pre-Morrison Damian, some lost Jason Todd Robin adventures, etc.[/QUOTE]
I would love both of these!
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[QUOTE=godisawesome;4805666]I’m not one to argue that Batman: Hush was well written... but since I decided I had to watch the animated adaptation, I feel I have to point out that Loeb’s story worked much better than its adaptation, as lite-weight as it was. Joker being almost killed works better when there’s the history of Joker actually damaging multiple members of both Batman and Gordon’s family, the tease with Jason was a fat red herring but it’s better than just making Tommy Elliot one and then killing off both him and Riddler... and I almost find the comic version of Vatwoman and Batman’s relationship nuanced in comparison to the movie version.[/QUOTE]
I think HUSH is pretty good. Not to mention that Loeb doesn't get enough credit for making Bruce and Selina an actual possibility for the first time in forever. Yeah, he was basically just teasing it, but then you got Dini's HEART OF HUSH follow-up and I think it all leads into King's Bat/Cat.
[QUOTE]And would it kill someone at Warner Bros animation to make reading Vengeance of Bane required reading before they write Bane in a movie or cartoon?[/QUOTE]
It's funny that we've now hit an era where villain-centered pieces are more viable, even in cinema, yet VoB doesn't get the love it deserves for being an extended villain origin story with a minor cameo by the hero.
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[QUOTE=David Walton;4806401]I think HUSH is pretty good. Not to mention that Loeb doesn't get enough credit for making Bruce and Selina an actual possibility for the first time in forever. Yeah, he was basically just teasing it, but then you got Dini's HEART OF HUSH follow-up and I think it all leads into King's Bat/Cat.
[/QUOTE]
I like Hush. It's not amazing, but there's a lot of stuff going on. It would have been really interesting if it was the starting point for Batman stories post-Fugitive. Selina and Bruce being romantically involved but with trust issues, Riddler as a bigger mastermind (and/or being on the run because he knows who Batman is), more Bruce/Lois interactions (they're always fun bouncing off each other), etc. I mean, yes, I'm describing King's run to an extent, but with those Jim Lee designs and the BIG storytelling.
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[QUOTE=bob.schoonover;4806445]I like Hush. It's not amazing, but there's a lot of stuff going on. It would have been really interesting if it was the starting point for Batman stories post-Fugitive. Selina and Bruce being romantically involved but with trust issues, Riddler as a bigger mastermind (and/or being on the run because he knows who Batman is), more Bruce/Lois interactions (they're always fun bouncing off each other), etc. I mean, yes, I'm describing King's run to an extent, but with those Jim Lee designs and the BIG storytelling.[/QUOTE]
It has always struck me as odd how Hush seems so disconnected with what came immediately before and after, and how its status quo doesn't seem to have lasted at all.
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[QUOTE=millernumber1;4806453]It has always struck me as odd how Hush seems so disconnected with what came immediately before and after, and how its status quo doesn't seem to have lasted at all.[/QUOTE]
No kidding. Azzarello/Winick/War Games/City of Crime is a nutso next three years after Hush. I'm always amazed at how short the time is between "Batman re-establishes a good relationship with the Bat-family" and "let's burn it all down again"
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[QUOTE=millernumber1;4806453]It has always struck me as odd how Hush seems so disconnected with what came immediately before and after, and how its status quo doesn't seem to have lasted at all.[/QUOTE]
Hush the comic was always more of a "superstar creative team" event than a status quo shifting story like DITF, TKJ, NML, Murderer, etc. The main attraction was always going to be "that dude from The Long Halloween" and "Jim freakin' Lee." It's arguably got all the problems that The Long Halloween gets held back by, but I think Loeb's *slightly* more straightforward style this time around concerning the central villain, and willingness to test some big ideas, even if just as red herrings or brief ideas, wound up having a greater impact later.
He meant to "put the toys back in the toy box" afterwards, and many of the villain cameos were just that - cameos, and it's clear that he was going to leave Batman and Catwoman unattached afterwards, didn't really want to resurrect Jason Todd, and left the story in a way where it didn't really need a sequel. In many ways, it's meant to be just another entry in his Long Halloween series.
But his tease of Jason Todd returning presaged Under The Red Hood, and likely led to it being greenlit a few years later. Creating a modern Batman and Catwoman romance helped resurrect and increase interest in the idea, and Brubaker and others would unofficially endorse it; I'd argue that Hush marks the transition between the "Talia is Batman's great love" era under Denny O'Neil to Catwoman's current pre-eminence as the romantic interest.
And DC was serious about trying to make Hush work as a reappearing villain. They just handed him off to the wrong creator right afterwards, and got some of Brian Azzarello's more forgettable work in his next appearance.
Paul Dini arguably made the type of sequel that Hush needed during his TEC and Streets of Gotham run - we had a more solid romance between Bruce and Selina, and Hush was repackaged to be a better villain.
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[QUOTE=bob.schoonover;4806542]No kidding. Azzarello/Winick/War Games/City of Crime is a nutso next three years after Hush. I'm always amazed at how short the time is between "Batman re-establishes a good relationship with the Bat-family" and "let's burn it all down again"[/QUOTE]
Yeah. And Hush was really popular, so I don't know why DC didn't look at the status quo of the Batfamily being more or less solid, and say "That is attractive to readers." I assume they thought the popularity was only because of the creative team. Sigh.
[QUOTE=godisawesome;4806546]Hush the comic was always more of a "superstar creative team" event than a status quo shifting story like DITF, TKJ, NML, Murderer, etc. The main attraction was always going to be "that dude from The Long Halloween" and "Jim freakin' Lee." It's arguably got all the problems that The Long Halloween gets held back by, but I think Loeb's *slightly* more straightforward style this time around concerning the central villain, and willingness to test some big ideas, even if just as red herrings or brief ideas, wound up having a greater impact later.
He meant to "put the toys back in the toy box" afterwards, and many of the villain cameos were just that - cameos, and it's clear that he was going to leave Batman and Catwoman unattached afterwards, didn't really want to resurrect Jason Todd, and left the story in a way where it didn't really need a sequel. In many ways, it's meant to be just another entry in his Long Halloween series.
But his tease of Jason Todd returning presaged Under The Red Hood, and likely led to it being greenlit a few years later. Creating a modern Batman and Catwoman romance helped resurrect and increase interest in the idea, and Brubaker and others would unofficially endorse it; I'd argue that Hush marks the transition between the "Talia is Batman's great love" era under Denny O'Neil to Catwoman's current pre-eminence as the romantic interest.
And DC was serious about trying to make Hush work as a reappearing villain. They just handed him off to the wrong creator right afterwards, and got some of Brian Azzarello's more forgettable work in his next appearance.
Paul Dini arguably made the type of sequel that Hush needed during his TEC and Streets of Gotham run - we had a more solid romance between Bruce and Selina, and Hush was repackaged to be a better villain.[/QUOTE]
That makes sense - just with my own feelings about Loeb as a writer...
Completely agree that Dini's Heart and House of Hush were much stronger, and likely responsible for Hush being still considered a major villain today, as opposed to a one-hit wonder.
The Talia/Selina shipper wars are fascinating, and frustrating, leading to some truly bizarre conspiracy theories. To me, it's really clear that O'Neil shipped Bruce/Talia HARD, but also thought that Batman could never be successfully romantically involved, thus all of his stories scotch the relationship really thoroughly (like one of my very favorites, Detective Comics Annual #1). Much as I prefer Batman to be in a long term relationship, even married, to Selina, I think O'Neil demonstrated incredible wisdom when he said that Batman can't sleep with anyone - because once he does, the writers will go nuts and have him sleep with EVERYONE. And he was darn right. Just look at what happened after NML and O'Neil left - as Rucka observed, he was sleeping with everyone, from Vesper Fairchild to his million love interests in the n52, to the rise of BatCat dominance through Hush/Heart of Hush.
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Finished reading A lonely place of dying, I enjoyed the story, never thought for a second the joker was manipulating two-face, which was revealed at the end of the story, really liked that. About to start The Last Arkham before going to Knightfall saga.
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[QUOTE=Wrestler;4807408]Finished reading A lonely place of dying, I enjoyed the story, never thought for a second the joker was manipulating two-face, which was revealed at the end of the story, really liked that. About to start The Last Arkham before going to Knightfall saga.[/QUOTE]
Nice work! First time through? What inspired you to try these stories out?
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Anyone hear remember Action Comics #766? It was Batman’s guest appearance in the Superman storyline where Parasite replaced Lois Lane, and Batman had to track her down?
I really, really like it!
It kind of goes with my favorite portrayal of Batman’s emotional status quo: he maintains a stoic attitude, but he’s actually very emotional, passionate, and often a bit turbulent - with that emotion feeding his dedication and no-nonsense attitude.
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This is my favorite era of Batman comics. Probably because it’s what I read in my teenage years into my young adulthood. I remember watching the debut episodes of Batman: The Animated Series on first airing when I was 10. That series is what I credit with making me into a Batman fan, but it didn’t take me long to start picking up the comics.
My first issues were Batman #467-469 (as a 3 pack), then #486-487, Shadow of the Bat #10, and Robin III: Cry For Huntress #3 and 6. Then I happened to get Batman #491, the prelude to Knightfall. That hooked me. From then on, I got every new issue, plus back issues and trades. My favorite character/series in the 1990s was Chuck Dixon’s Robin. By the time I was 18, I’d collected almost everything back to 1986. I’ve collected further back than that since then, and I was a regular reader of the new books until I dropped out around 2014. Rebirth got me back though.
I just did a re-read of No Man’s Land last year for its 20th anniversary (!!). Since that storyline was a full year event in 1999, I thought it would be fun to re-read all of the comics over the course of 2019, at the same pace they were originally released. That turned out to be really fun way to re-experience it all.
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[QUOTE=godisawesome;4807483]Anyone hear remember Action Comics #766? It was Batman’s guest appearance in the Superman storyline where Parasite replaced Lois Lane, and Batman had to track her down?
I really, really like it!
It kind of goes with my favorite portrayal of Batman’s emotional status quo: he maintains a stoic attitude, but he’s actually very emotional, passionate, and often a bit turbulent - with that emotion feeding his dedication and no-nonsense attitude.[/QUOTE]
Interesting. I'm really torn on this kind of story (see also: my reaction to Batman/Superman, any version of the title). On the one hand, I like the contrast and relationship you can get out of it. On the other...I think that Batman and Superman shouldn't exist in the same universe, because their worlds shape them too much for those worlds to be the same.
I did have a good time, though I'm curious about why Superman is poisoned, and how he got unpoisoned. :)
[QUOTE=kevink31593;4807710]This is my favorite era of Batman comics. Probably because it’s what I read in my teenage years into my young adulthood. I remember watching the debut episodes of Batman: The Animated Series on first airing when I was 10. That series is what I credit with making me into a Batman fan, but it didn’t take me long to start picking up the comics.
My first issues were Batman #467-469 (as a 3 pack), then #486-487, Shadow of the Bat #10, and Robin III: Cry For Huntress #3 and 6. Then I happened to get Batman #491, the prelude to Knightfall. That hooked me. From then on, I got every new issue, plus back issues and trades. My favorite character/series in the 1990s was Chuck Dixon’s Robin. By the time I was 18, I’d collected almost everything back to 1986. I’ve collected further back than that since then, and I was a regular reader of the new books until I dropped out around 2014. Rebirth got me back though.
I just did a re-read of No Man’s Land last year for its 20th anniversary (!!). Since that storyline was a full year event in 1999, I thought it would be fun to re-read all of the comics over the course of 2019, at the same pace they were originally released. That turned out to be really fun way to re-experience it all.[/QUOTE]
Cool stuff! You got every new issue of every title? Or was it a narrower collection? That's so many comics!
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[QUOTE=millernumber1;4807759]
Cool stuff! You got every new issue of every title? Or was it a narrower collection? That's so many comics![/QUOTE]
In the 90s, after Knightfall started, I never missed an issue of Batman, Detective Comics, Shadow of the Bat, Catwoman, Robin, Azrael, Batman Chronicles, or Nightwing. Got specials, annuals, minis, trades, back issues. I really enjoyed reading all that stuff as it came out brand new. The 90s bat books get a rep for being one crossover after another, and I enjoyed all those. But there was one stretch for 18 months between Legacy and Cataclysm that was really cool, when there were no crossovers, they had a three issue max on story arcs, and every month at least one series had a one shot issue. I wish they would go back to that style today more often.
Due to my budget at the time, I didn’t get Elseworlds stuff, the Adventures books, or non crossover issues of Legends of the Dark Knight. Also, Birds of Prey was somehow off my radar until 2000. I did go back and get most of that stuff later as back issues. In the 2000s I branched into more of the wider DCU in addition to the bat books.
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[QUOTE=kevink31593;4807777]In the 90s, after Knightfall started, I never missed an issue of Batman, Detective Comics, Shadow of the Bat, Catwoman, Robin, Azrael, Batman Chronicles, or Nightwing. Got specials, annuals, minis, trades, back issues. I really enjoyed reading all that stuff as it came out brand new. The 90s bat books get a rep for being one crossover after another, and I enjoyed all those. [B]But there was one stretch for 18 months between Legacy and Cataclysm that was really cool, when there were no crossovers, they had a three issue max on story arcs, and every month at least one series had a one shot issue[/B]. I wish they would go back to that style today more often.
Due to my budget at the time, I didn’t get Elseworlds stuff, the Adventures books, or non crossover issues of Legends of the Dark Knight. Also, Birds of Prey was somehow off my radar until 2000. I did go back and get most of that stuff later as back issues. In the 2000s I branched into more of the wider DCU in addition to the bat books.[/QUOTE]
Right there with ya. This stretch was killer.
There's a bunch of great Robin issues — I especially like the "bottle episode" where he's grounded. I think Nightwing 25 falls within that window, "The Boys"... this is a prime period of Nightwing & Robin adventuring together in Detective Comics.
Birds Of Prey was also off my radar for a long time too... only recently with the upcoming film was I finally inspired to read through it. I like Oracle a lot but she was a major presence in all of the Bat books, as was Huntress, and I didn't know anything about Black Canary... I was interested in the miniseries with Catwoman — one of the first minis of it, maybe? — but yeah I tended to miss BOP and most of Azrael but was otherwise collecting all of them at the time.
I didn't pay too much attention to the wider DCU except Green Lantern, JLA, Young Justice, and sometimes Flash.
With the DCU app I was able to finally read the Green Arrow issues of the "Fist of the Monkey" (might be misremembering that title) crossover in Aftershock, and there's the big showdown in the overturned Davenport Tower with Connor Hawke versus Lady Shiva.
...
Thinking about Davenport, one of the main things I think the Bat-verse misses since this era the most is the presence of regular Gothamites as recurring characters. Tim Drake's friends like Ives, Hudson, Ariana, Karl Ranck, and his dad and stepmom really helped with this.
You could include Dick Grayson's supporting cast, but of course that's Bludhaven, not Gotham.... if I could retcon this, I would: Bludhaven should just be a district within Gotham that "belongs independently" to Nightwing, in the way that the East End was Catwoman's "turf." Even with the Seeley take on Bludhaven as more of an Atlantic City, it still seems a little pointless to have this place be Gotham Adjacent. Just make it within Gotham, like Nightwing's version of Hell's Kitchen. Maybe Bludhaven is the same thing as The Narrows.
Batman oversees everything but yeah Gotham is split up a bit. You know, 90s Robin patrolled the Gotham Heights / the 'burbs in the county, with the Shotgun Sheriff... it's cooler to me if Gotham is like a more contained and grounded version of Marvel's New York.
That's sort of how the 90s Bat comics felt... they were distinct enough from the larger DCU most of the time, but internally they connected really well.
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The 1990s DC Universe felt very lived-in, especially in the Super and Bat-family books, since they had so many titles to explore different facets of their world.
They also had a different feel because there wasn't a single creative vision that all others deferred to. Whatever the advantages to the modern approach, there is a much larger disconnect between books now. King's BATMAN and Tynion's TEC could easily have taken place on different worlds.
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[QUOTE=godisawesome;4807483]Anyone hear remember Action Comics #766? It was Batman’s guest appearance in the Superman storyline where Parasite replaced Lois Lane, and Batman had to track her down?
I really, really like it!
It kind of goes with my favorite portrayal of Batman’s emotional status quo: he maintains a stoic attitude, but he’s actually very emotional, passionate, and often a bit turbulent - with that emotion feeding his dedication and no-nonsense attitude.[/QUOTE]
I re-read this last night after seeing your post to refresh my memory. You're right, it's a fantastic issue! Kelly's Superman stuff was phenomenal and he really got the dynamic between Clark and Bruce. I love how they come to understand each other's worldview as they search for Lois.
Also, that bar scene is a genuinely surprising and sweet moment. Batman can't get the toughs to talk (well, yet) and Superman comes in barely able to stand, and they give him the help he's asking for.
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[QUOTE=millernumber1;4807411]Nice work! First time through? What inspired you to try these stories out?[/QUOTE]
Yes, it's the first time! Last year I wanted to start reading HQs, I've always liked super-heroes, I was all into MCU and some Marvel series like The Punisher and Daredevil, one DC series too, Smallville, as I finished watching all the seasons with my wife. I grew up hearing my cousin talking about Batman and he is a really addicted one at the bat-family universe, I've decided to give it a try. I didn't want to start reading issues from 1940, 1950 and so on, as I thought it was outdated, but I knew the 80's and 90's had excellent batman stories, so I went searching for a batman reading order of the modern era. I've found it on several places, but two of them really struck me as the correct ones while I was reading the first issues. As I'm going through the stories, I've been getting rid of some of them, including some and I'm coming up with my own reading order, the one I find it more logical chronologically speaking.
It's been a great experience so far, a bit (very) addictive I'd say.
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[QUOTE=Wrestler;4808130]Yes, it's the first time! Last year I wanted to start reading HQs, I've always liked super-heroes, I was all into MCU and some Marvel series like The Punisher and Daredevil, one DC series too, Smallville, as I finished watching all the seasons with my wife. I grew up hearing my cousin talking about Batman and he is a really addicted one at the bat-family universe, I've decided to give it a try. I didn't want to start reading issues from 1940, 1950 and so on, as I thought it was outdated, but I knew the 80's and 90's had excellent batman stories, so I went searching for a batman reading order of the modern era. I've found it on several places, but two of them really struck me as the correct ones while I was reading the first issues. As I'm going through the stories, I've been getting rid of some of them, including some and I'm coming up with my own reading order, the one I find it more logical chronologically speaking.
It's been a great experience so far, a bit (very) addictive I'd say.[/QUOTE]
Have you read "Year Three"? In a lot of ways, "A Lonely Place of Dying" is its sequel.
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[QUOTE=kevink31593;4807777]In the 90s, after Knightfall started, I never missed an issue of Batman, Detective Comics, Shadow of the Bat, Catwoman, Robin, Azrael, Batman Chronicles, or Nightwing. Got specials, annuals, minis, trades, back issues. I really enjoyed reading all that stuff as it came out brand new. The 90s bat books get a rep for being one crossover after another, and I enjoyed all those. But there was one stretch for 18 months between Legacy and Cataclysm that was really cool, when there were no crossovers, they had a three issue max on story arcs, and every month at least one series had a one shot issue. I wish they would go back to that style today more often.
Due to my budget at the time, I didn’t get Elseworlds stuff, the Adventures books, or non crossover issues of Legends of the Dark Knight. Also, Birds of Prey was somehow off my radar until 2000. I did go back and get most of that stuff later as back issues. In the 2000s I branched into more of the wider DCU in addition to the bat books.[/QUOTE]
Wow! I really admire that kind of collection. I myself can't sustain a passion for a whole line - I try to keep myself to about 1-2 books a week, so my love for the experience is still hot every week. But it's really awesome when I find people who have that kind of sheer enthusiasm!
I would also like more attention to be paid to one-shots and shorter arcs. King's Batman actually did do that quite a bit, but it was also all part of one story, so it was a very different experience.
[QUOTE=David Walton;4808078]The 1990s DC Universe felt very lived-in, especially in the Super and Bat-family books, since they had so many titles to explore different facets of their world.
They also had a different feel because there wasn't a single creative vision that all others deferred to. Whatever the advantages to the modern approach, there is a much larger disconnect between books now. King's BATMAN and Tynion's TEC could easily have taken place on different worlds.[/QUOTE]
That's so true. The "lived in" quality of the universe made it feel like even if you weren't interested in reading everything, it was still a world that had depth. I'd say that Morrison is the last time that the Bat Books really consistently paid attention to each other. Maybe the early Snyder stuff, but after a while, it felt like everything was really disconnected until DC wanted to pull a tie-in month.
[QUOTE=Wrestler;4808130]Yes, it's the first time! Last year I wanted to start reading HQs, I've always liked super-heroes, I was all into MCU and some Marvel series like The Punisher and Daredevil, one DC series too, Smallville, as I finished watching all the seasons with my wife. I grew up hearing my cousin talking about Batman and he is a really addicted one at the bat-family universe, I've decided to give it a try. I didn't want to start reading issues from 1940, 1950 and so on, as I thought it was outdated, but I knew the 80's and 90's had excellent batman stories, so I went searching for a batman reading order of the modern era. I've found it on several places, but two of them really struck me as the correct ones while I was reading the first issues. As I'm going through the stories, I've been getting rid of some of them, including some and I'm coming up with my own reading order, the one I find it more logical chronologically speaking.
It's been a great experience so far, a bit (very) addictive I'd say.[/QUOTE]
Very cool! I've never been able to sustain a complete chronological reading - but I think it's a very useful resource to have! Very glad to have you here with this experience in the thread.
[QUOTE=David Walton;4808171]Have you read "Year Three"? In a lot of ways, "A Lonely Place of Dying" is its sequel.[/QUOTE]
I agree - I quite liked Year Three, though not as much as Year Two for some reason. Still a little sad that they were wiped out by Long Halloween and Dark Victory.
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[QUOTE=millernumber1;4808183]That's so true. The "lived in" quality of the universe made it feel like even if you weren't interested in reading everything, it was still a world that had depth. I'd say that Morrison is the last time that the Bat Books really consistently paid attention to each other. Maybe the early Snyder stuff, but after a while, it felt like everything was really disconnected until DC wanted to pull a tie-in month.[/QUOTE]
And even with Morrison's run the rest of the books were clearly following his lead, whereas the creative teams felt pretty equal during the 90s. The contemporary tie-ins tend to be kind of problematic IMO, because unlike the massive crossovers of the 90s it feels like the satellite creative teams getting their visions co-opted to fit the pilot book's agenda. Maybe I'm not being fair. The last old-school 90s style crossover we got was "Night of the Monster Men" and I loved it. But it's the exception to the rule post-2000s.
[QUOTE]I agree - I quite liked Year Three, though not as much as Year Two for some reason. Still a little sad that they were wiped out by Long Halloween and Dark Victory.[/QUOTE]
I never bought DC Comics regularly until "Death of Superman." I only had so much allowance and I spent it on mostly Marvel. I do remember picking up the third and fourth issue of "Year Three" and being fascinated by it all. Like that opening scene where Alfred contemplates killing Zucco!
Denny O'Neil's [B]Legend of the Dark Knight [/B]#100 re-telling also has Zucco dying of a heart attack and that was before [B]Dark Victory[/B]. Not canon, but it seems like the idea of Zucco dying immediately stuck with most writers familiar with the original story. But I like the idea of Bruce and Dick working to solve Zucco's murder as his final transition out of Batman's shadow. (I know he can never fully escape the shadow of the bat, nor should he, but it's when he finally feels comfortable as Nightwing).
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[QUOTE=David Walton;4808211]And even with Morrison's run the rest of the books were clearly following his lead, whereas the creative teams felt pretty equal during the 90s. The contemporary tie-ins tend to be kind of problematic IMO, because unlike the massive crossovers of the 90s it feels like the satellite creative teams getting their visions co-opted to fit the pilot book's agenda. Maybe I'm not being fair. The last old-school 90s style crossover we got was "Night of the Monster Men" and I loved it. But it's the exception to the rule post-2000s.
I never bought DC Comics regularly until "Death of Superman." I only had so much allowance and I spent it on mostly Marvel. I do remember picking up the third and fourth issue of "Year Three" and being fascinated by it all. Like that opening scene where Alfred contemplates killing Zucco!
Denny O'Neil's [B]Legend of the Dark Knight [/B]#100 re-telling also has Zucco dying of a heart attack and that was before [B]Dark Victory[/B]. Not canon, but it seems like the idea of Zucco dying immediately stuck with most writers familiar with the original story. But I like the idea of Bruce and Dick working to solve Zucco's murder as his final transition out of Batman's shadow. (I know he can never fully escape the shadow of the bat, nor should he, but it's when he finally feels comfortable as Nightwing).[/QUOTE]
That's true - Morrison feels, to me, like the transition to "superstar writer" as a model, which doesn't work when you hire more than one of them (which DC has been doing a lot). I tend to agree that I don't like the way a lot of tie-ins feel shoehorned in or disruptive of the ongoing story - but I think Deathstroke by Priest shows that it can be done masterfully in a way that doesn't conflict with the ongoing story. But that's an extreme minority, not the norm, sadly. You have to have a strange combination of humility and ego to write that way - a belief in your own story so that you don't let your story get destroyed, but humility so that you are willing to make changes to fit the universe.
(I was sadly not a fan of Night of the Monster Men, but it was far from the worst example of a crossover of that nature. I thought Robin War was much worse, despite me liking the individual series involved.)
I really liked the use of the Zucco plotline in The Black Mirror (and I was bummed that it was so mishandled in the n52 Nightwing run that followed up on those threads). Partly because I like the idea of each Batfamily member having their own nemesis or thematic throughline. I should check out Legends of the Dark Knight #100.
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[QUOTE=millernumber1;4808228]That's true - Morrison feels, to me, like the transition to "superstar writer" as a model, which doesn't work when you hire more than one of them (which DC has been doing a lot).[/QUOTE]
There are advantages and disadvantages to either approach. I've enjoyed strong creative visions like Morrison's, Snyder's and King's. But I think they're probably detrimental to the overall sense of a 'line.' I often miss the very real sense of immediate impact titles had on each other. And I wonder if the era of the 'superstar writer' has accelerated the decline in sales for satellite books. In the 90s, DC-family books tended to encourage interest in their broader world, even when we're not talking direct crossovers.
[QUOTE]I really liked the use of the Zucco plotline in The Black Mirror (and I was bummed that it was so mishandled in the n52 Nightwing run that followed up on those threads). Partly because I like the idea of each Batfamily member having their own nemesis or thematic throughline. I should check out Legends of the Dark Knight #100.[/QUOTE]
You should. There's also a Jason Todd backup story with art by Lee Weeks.
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[QUOTE=David Walton;4808171]Have you read "Year Three"? In a lot of ways, "A Lonely Place of Dying" is its sequel.[/QUOTE]
I don't think it fits in this order I'm reading, isn't Zucco alive in this issue? If he is, it goes against Dark Victory story. Yes, they mention "Zucco fiasco" in A lonely place of dying, but that's it, I thought it was a codiname they were using for some operation to fit it with Dark Victory, if they had mentioned Zucco was alive, it would screw my reading order logically, thankfully they didn't.
[QUOTE=millernumber1;4808183]Very cool! I've never been able to sustain a complete chronological reading - but I think it's a very useful resource to have! Very glad to have you here with this experience in the thread.[/QUOTE]
Thank you, still not so much experience, but I'm glad to help you guys out with some information.
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[QUOTE=David Walton;4808259]There are advantages and disadvantages to either approach. I've enjoyed strong creative visions like Morrison's, Snyder's and King's. But I think they're probably detrimental to the overall sense of a 'line.' I often miss the very real sense of immediate impact titles had on each other. And I wonder if the era of the 'superstar writer' has accelerated the decline in sales for satellite books. In the 90s, DC-family books tended to encourage interest in their broader world, even when we're not talking direct crossovers.
You should. There's also a Jason Todd backup story with art by Lee Weeks.[/QUOTE]
I think a creative vision is good...but I prefer it when that vision is editorial's, so the writers are working together - that ego/humility balance again. However, I would NOT like the current editorial to have the kind of creative vision O'Neil had.
90s sales and market were just a really different model. Pressures, desires, availability all different, so it's hard to figure out what to do now in the current market. But I think "more of the same" is likely not the answer - but then you get things like the n52, which are also not really the answer long term, however good they were short term.
As for a Lee Weeks Batfamily book...you know how to hook me in :)
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[QUOTE=millernumber1;4808330]I think a creative vision is good...but I prefer it when that vision is editorial's, so the writers are working together - that ego/humility balance again.[/QUOTE]
I get what you're saying, but I think any kind of work for DC or Marvel requires an ego/humility balance. Snyder and King strike me as incredibly humble guys. I don't have any problem with writers wanting to mostly do their own thing if possible. Or preferring to outline things in a group environment.
[QUOTE]However, I would NOT like the current editorial to have the kind of creative vision O'Neil had.[/QUOTE]
Eh? What fault do you find with O'Neil's vision? I thought he did excellent work as editor.
[QUOTE]90s sales and market were just a really different model. Pressures, desires, availability all different, so it's hard to figure out what to do now in the current market. But I think "more of the same" is likely not the answer - but then you get things like the n52, which are also not really the answer long term, however good they were short term.[/QUOTE]
I guess we'll see what impact 5G has on the market.
[QUOTE]As for a Lee Weeks Batfamily book...you know how to hook me in :)[/QUOTE]
His Batman work is so brilliant!
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I was reading Tony Zucco's profile on this website -> [url]https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Anthony_Zucco_(New_Earth)[/url] , I remember in Dark Victory story Batman saying Zucco was dead after the heart attack, but now I read this, can you experienced readers confirm this is true?
"He is later found by Batman and Dick Grayson (Pre-Robin), and is chased down a dark alley by Grayson until he has a heart attack, and confesses to his various crimes.
[B]Zucco did not die of the heart attack, but he actually went into a coma[/B] and was later sent to prison after recovering. He is sentenced to two consecutive life terms for the deaths of John and Mary Grayson, and incarcerated in Blackgate Penitentiary."
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[QUOTE=Wrestler;4808420]I was reading Tony Zucco's profile on this website -> [url]https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Anthony_Zucco_(New_Earth)[/url] , I remember in Dark Victory story Batman saying Zucco was dead after the heart attack, but now I read this, can you experienced readers confirm this is true?
"He is later found by Batman and Dick Grayson (Pre-Robin), and is chased down a dark alley by Grayson until he has a heart attack, and confesses to his various crimes.
[B]Zucco did not die of the heart attack, but he actually went into a coma[/B] and was later sent to prison after recovering. He is sentenced to two consecutive life terms for the deaths of John and Mary Grayson, and incarcerated in Blackgate Penitentiary."[/QUOTE]
I don't know. Zucco's alive in "Year Three" and serving his prison term. I don't know if him surviving "Dark Victory" is official canon or just a way for the author of that profile to reconcile the discrepancy. Either way, I think "Year Three" is worth taking a look at, given that Wolfman picks up a lot of themes he introduce there in "A Lonely Place of Dying."
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[QUOTE=David Walton;4808419]I get what you're saying, but I think any kind of work for DC or Marvel requires an ego/humility balance. Snyder and King strike me as incredibly humble guys. I don't have any problem with writers wanting to mostly do their own thing if possible. Or preferring to outline things in a group environment.
Eh? What fault do you find with O'Neil's vision? I thought he did excellent work as editor.
I guess we'll see what impact 5G has on the market.
His Batman work is so brilliant![/QUOTE]
Snyder and King are personally very humble, but artistically not, sadly. They refuse/feel incapable of telling others what to do, and don't work well with others interfering with their own stories either. But they're also almost completely outside of this thread's purview, so I don't mean to derail, as I love this thread.
I phrased that poorly - I meant O'Neil's vision was great. I think Didio, Harras, and the other editors currently do not have a great vision, so I do not want them to have the power O'Neil did.
We will indeed have to see what 5G does. As like the world's only Batwing fan, I'm kind of worried this will tank him forever. He deserves better than to be a stunt Batman.
Lee Weeks (and Jorge Fornes) are clearly the inheritors of David Mazzucchelli, and since Mazz decided to go into fine art with just a few independent and brilliant comic works like Asterios Polyp, I'm very glad we have Weeks and Fornes providing such beauty for Batman and Daredevil. :)
[QUOTE=Wrestler;4808420]I was reading Tony Zucco's profile on this website -> [url]https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Anthony_Zucco_(New_Earth)[/url] , I remember in Dark Victory story Batman saying Zucco was dead after the heart attack, but now I read this, can you experienced readers confirm this is true?[/QUOTE]
That really depends on the continuity. In the n52, he revealed to have faked his death and started a new life, but I have no real idea if he did that pre-n52. I know his daughter, Sonia, was part of The Black Mirror, and thus falls under the purview of this thread. :)
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[QUOTE=David Walton;4808429]I don't know. Zucco's alive in "Year Three" and serving his prison term. I don't know if him surviving "Dark Victory" is official canon or just a way for the author of that profile to reconcile the discrepancy. Either way, I think "Year Three" is worth taking a look at, given that Wolfman picks up a lot of themes he introduce there in "A Lonely Place of Dying."[/QUOTE]
They say it's mentioned he was actually in coma in Robin: Year One, but I don't remember that, I'll have to give it a look again, if he was indeed alive, his pulse should be extremely weak to Batman commit this kind of mistake.
I'll definitely read Year Three, I'm reading some separate good stories people talk about sometimes.
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Re: lived-in universe
Now that I think about it, what are other attempts at "average Gotham citizens" outside of Tim Drake's spidey-like 90s supporting cast? Bonus points if said characters aren't cops, doctors, or media personalities.
The closest I can think of would be Dick's neighbors in the Haven, the families of Lucius Fox or Renee Montoya, or in the New 52 with Harper Row's brother, Cullen... and the Batgirl of Burnside had some good additions to this, but have any of them stuck? I don't know.
It was a special thing to have Tim's friends circulating in the Gotham-verse, for Tim to essentially be the Peter Parker of Gotham, and it's a shame that they've mostly been lost, along with that role... or maybe it's good that they were forgotten before Ives could be turned into some Green Goblin ripoff.
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[QUOTE=gregpersons;4808709]Re: lived-in universe
Now that I think about it, what are other attempts at "average Gotham citizens" outside of Tim Drake's spidey-like 90s supporting cast? Bonus points if said characters aren't cops, doctors, or media personalities.
The closest I can think of would be Dick's neighbors in the Haven, the families of Lucius Fox or Renee Montoya, or in the New 52 with Harper Row's brother, Cullen... and the Batgirl of Burnside had some good additions to this, but have any of them stuck? I don't know.
It was a special thing to have Tim's friends circulating in the Gotham-verse, for Tim to essentially be the Peter Parker of Gotham, and it's a shame that they've mostly been lost, along with that role... or maybe it's good that they were forgotten before Ives could be turned into some Green Goblin ripoff.[/QUOTE]
Morrison had a prostitute who Bruce hired to be a secretary, I believe. There were Oracle's hacker buddies in Oracle: The Cure (such a disappointing mini). The Birds of Prey, especially Dixon's stuff and some of the early Simone stuff, had some good supporting characters - neighbors of Dinah or Babs.
Too much of Batman has become too epic, not leaving room for the everyday characters, I think.
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Cassandra Cain had a neighbor she befriended for a few issues.