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[QUOTE=ericng;4790751]Wolfsbane and Rictor have been featured quite prominently in past issues of X-Factor and X-Force.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Kisinith;4790676]Meanwhile the bolded are characters that haven't featured or have seen significant use in an X-Men book [B]in a while[/B] (or ever).[/QUOTE]
Wolfsbane and Richtor were both feature players up until X-Factor investigations but that ended in 2013. After that he's shown up from time to time but in a pretty limited capacity mostly connected to Shaterstar. A better case can be made for Wolfsbane, she's also only had a few sporadic appearances but was a player in Dead Souls a 6 issue mini series so I decided she qualified.
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[QUOTE=ericng;4790749]I think Hickman is contradicting himself by saying "don't buy what you don't like".
The original New Mutants fans are buying what they don't like when Ed Brisson highlights Glob and gang in the same title. They should separate the two teams with two titles so that fans can buy what they like in their own title.[/QUOTE]Or do like me and simply don't read the issues featuring characters I don't want to read about. There's zero overlap between the space and the Beak/Glob stories so you won't miss anything. I do admit that it would be difficult for a more casual fan to know about the change in content, though, and I do agree the two concepts belong far, far apart. Glob should be nowhere near Magik.
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I have only been reading what I like for years thus why I haven't really been reading a lot of X-Men lately. Post Bendis I only read Cullen Bunn, and Tom Taylor's X-Men stuff. Right now only X book I am reading is New Mutants.
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You can do both. It's not a hard concept to understand, and Hickman is being disingenuous here. Having 6-7 main books that establish clear tones and themes that drive an overarching narrative that's been CLEARLY hinted at with HoX/PoX, and then branching from those titles ancillary titles that explore all different corners of the new reality isn't at all a bad thing, but is definitely clearer, and more organized.
For example, when a tv show is being made, the pilot episode is the most important episode because it establishes a template in regards to tone, themes, direction, and characterization that all following episodes are to follow, but also build upon. If the whole point of this new status quo for the X-Men franchise is to bring in and grow a bigger and bigger audience, but without the baggage of all the history, then HoX/PoX did it's job. However, now all the newcomers, or casuals, that came into the X-Men world through HoX/PoX now see that all the momentum had halted and now there's all these things happening at once that don't on the surface seem to tie very well into each other narratively, let alone everythong foreshadowed in HoX/PoX. Yes, there's worldbuilding going on, but what is the point of doing that for sake of it? It's like if after the Game of Thrones book, the next novel featured PoVs of people in Dorne, the Iron Islands, and the Reach, all going on their own adventures that ultimately don't have anything to do with the fallout of the death of Ned Stark. X-Men doesn't even have a first volume out, and if it did, would be full of one-shot stories that all seem to be merely set up for several different storylines rather than telling a focused narrative. Then you have all these books dealing with different aspects of the new status quo, but nothing builds of anything set up in the flagship. Then we have all these miniseries and solos happening, too, that are doing interesting things yes, but deviate from the narrative that hooked people in the first place. It's not that you can't have those books, but it's too soon. It feels like there's no plan (we have no idea whether or not that's the case of course). There's a reason ASOIAF didn't start off with so many POVs, and expanded later.
However, of course all these new books branching out would ultimately converge into each other at some point; whether narratively or via character growth/devolution from those stories.
Right now, Hickman talks like you can go throughout his whole run reading one book and you don't have to worry about it relating to anything else. How is that true with all the foreshadowing he's doing in the stuff he's done personally? If Krakoa is in WW3 in his flagship, that will definitely affect every other book.
Here's a response I did in another that explains what I mean in greater detail, using ASOIAF/Game of Thrones as a example.
[B][I] [QUOTE=Ferro;4789324]A song of fire and ice is an individual series, not a comic book line first of all.
Second, krakoa is not a plot line, it's the new status quo and worldbuilding/setting for all mutants and the x-side of the marvel universe.
You are basicaly comparing apples and oranges here
And third, on a proper and vibrant universe, stories can exist just to be told?
kwannon and some mutants that dont feel comfortable in krakoa is a perfectly fine story to be told ? its a piece of the marvel universe, not just pieces for his own story and if it was krakoa would suck because it would be aparent that it was just one writers pet project, krakoa goes beyond that and thats what makes it fun and interesting, is that even the editorial is invested in it.[/QUOTE]
You're doing this on purpose...
1) ASOIAF is a single novel line composed of many POVs, each of which is its own plotline that runs parallel with the plotlines of others, and will ultimately tie into each other for the climax. Jamie, Arya, Sansa, Jon, Cersei, Tyrion, Stannis, Arianna, Theon/Reek, Euron, Dany, and Bran all have their own plotlines separate from the others that will eventually converge, just like how all these different comics are separate plotlines that will eventually converge for an event. All these characters that are being focused on were chosen for a reason and should be major players down the line. At least it's safe to assume so, because why else develope them over others? If there is no direction, then there should be even more books with more creators doing whatever they want in this sandbox.
2) Krakoa is the new status quo, yes, and worldbuilding is very important, but it's always better to cement definite foundations first and then branch off. Having 6-7 ongoing books that serve as the back bones. X-Men can't even get it's schedule correct after 3 issues, yet they're announcing book after book.
3) Yes stories can be told, but Hickman is here to tell a grand story. That's why he shaped a new status quo so that he can play without worrying about the stories of those that came before him. Establish a first act first (HoX/PoX was the prologue), then build. Miniseries and/or more ancillary ongoings after 1-2 volume worth of storytelling and worldbuilding with those backbone books. Now that you've allowed the first wave time to breathe, and gauged the temperature in the room, then experiment. However now you've got a definitive direction and collection of tones. Have 3 books branch out of X-Factor and/or 4 books branch out of X-Force. Maybe the Wolverine solo is the result of the fallout of a decision made within X-Force? Maybe an X-kids book is to follow up on a side character helped out in X-Factor? Organic storytelling like that, rather than random stories be told, just cuz. That's how you get people to branch out and buy 12+ books; by establishing a foundation, and building off that. ASOIAF didn't start with 20 POVs, but built to that point.
That way, people can tell their own stories in that sandbox, but it's clear where those stories are coming ftom, and where they fit in the world. They don't have to tie directly into the grand plot, but they are consequences of the main plot. It makes everything come off as organized and planned, rather than done just cuz someone was like "that's cool"; like the random Spider-Man and the X-Men book that did nothing for either franchise. [/I][/B]
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Do good books really need to be explained by their author?
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Let's be honest here...the complaints aren't about there being too many X-books, they're about those X-BOOKS not directly catering to the stories and characters some readers have written in their heads.
X-Force: "Oh, love Polaris Northstar Daken. Eyeboy, eww! I'm not buying and I don't believe in resurrection."
And that is the gist of how these complaints usually go. Spin it however you like to make yourselves feel better about your true love of complaining, but the absolute fact is...nobody is asking or forcing you to read and buy books you don't like or don't want.
And that those same readers continue to do so and continue to complain, speaks volumes...about them, not the industry.
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[QUOTE=TooFlyToFail;4790816]You can do both. It's not a hard concept to understand, and Hickman is being disingenuous here.[/QUOTE] I don't think so. Hickman is doing both. I feel like people are misinterpreting exactly what he's saying. The goal is to create a diverse line of X books that can be enjoyed by every kind of reader. Keyword their is goal, doesn't mean it's gonna happen now or even in the next 2 years but rather it's a philosophy to strive towards.
The first 6 books to roll out were definitely meant to cement Krakao after HoX/PoX no doubt about. But they were also diverse from the sounds of it even the anti krakao fans have found at least 1 book they enjoy. What Hickman is arguing against is the notion that you HAVE to buy every issue of these book rolling out or you'll be lost forever. He's saying read the books you enjoy amd focus on that.
Will their crossover events? Of course this is Marvel we're talking about. Will there be books that pick up the dangling plot threads of HoX and expand on them? Absolutely. And will there be books that don't focus on those threads and are just trying to tell a story in this new setting of Krakoa? You betcha.
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[QUOTE=Kisinith;4790676]I think its worth noting for those complaining about too many books, that with with the exception of characters in solo's and X-Men (as its a giant team up book) and the odd guest appearance there isn't much character overlap in the ongoings. Also each of the books seems to have an actual unique purpose in the line (each is doing something different).
X-Men - Cyclops + guest stars
X-Force - Jean, [I][U]Wolverine[/U][/I], Beast, Domino, QQ, [B]Black Tom[/B], [B]Sage[/B]
Marauders - Kate, Storm, Ice Man, [B]Pyro[/B], Bishop, Emma
Excalibur - Betsy, Rogue, Gambit, Jubilee, [B]Apocalypse[/B], [B]Richtor[/B]
New Mutants - Magik, Sunspot, Cannonball, Cypher, [B]Wolfsbane[/B], Mirage, Karma, [B]Mondo[/B], [B]Chamber[/B]
-New Mutants B Team - Glob, [I][U]Armor[/U][/I], Boom Boom, [B]Maxime[/B], [B]Manon[/B]
Wolverine - [I][U]Wolverine[/U][/I], supporting cast tbd
Hellions - [B]Sinister[/B], [B]Kwannon[/B], Havok, [B]Empath[/B], [B]Nanny[/B], [B]Orphan-Maker[/B], [B]Scalphunter[/B], and [B]Wild Child[/B]
Cable - Wifi, [B]Pixie[/B], [I][U]Armor[/U][/I], Celeste, [B]Esme[/B], Mindee, Phoebe, and [B]Sophie[/B]
X-Factor - [B]Northstar[/B], Polaris, [B]Prodigy[/B], Eye-Boy, [B]Daken[/B], and Prestige
Children of the Atom - unknown
Unless I'm missing something the only overlap is Wolverine and Armor and we don't know how significantly Armor will feature. Meanwhile the bolded are characters that haven't featured or have seen significant use in an X-Men book in a while (or ever). 10 ongoings with little to no characters overlapping with each book using at least one underused, unused character, each book with a unique identity and mission sounds like something the board has been clamoring for forever.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for this. It's nice to see so many characters being used and some of them becoming rising stars like Black Tom. I'm hoping we get something similar with the cast of Hellions. Nanny is next.
Oh and you can throw Colossus up there whenever he decides to come out of his mood.
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[QUOTE=Devaishwarya;4790888]Let's be honest here...the complaints aren't about there being too many X-books, they're about those X-BOOKS not directly catering to the stories and characters some readers have written in their heads.
X-Force: "Oh, love Polaris Northstar Daken. Eyeboy, eww! I'm not buying and I don't believe in resurrection."
And that is the gist of how these complaints usually go. Spin it however you like to make yourselves feel better about your true love of complaining, but the absolute fact is...nobody is asking or forcing you to read and buy books you don't like or don't want.
And that those same readers continue to do so and continue to complain, speaks volumes...about them, not the industry.[/QUOTE]
Right on. For every poster that said "hard pass" to a book, another is jumping for joy about it. It seems the X-Office is indeed trying to make something for everyone.
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If they want a line where every kind of X-Fan can have a book they like then they must make their books with better quality.
X-Force is the only quality DOX book. All other books are average at best.
I want to like Excalibur but this book is a mess and Gambit who is my favorite character is written like a garbage there.
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[QUOTE=loke13;4790281]Yeah exactly. No one is shutting those threads down, deleting post, or ignoring them. Both sides have been actively engaging in discussion...it's just that the oversaturation of multiple threads with the same talking points can get a bit tiring. I actually appreciate Dominos method of posing the questions in a way that helps promote discussion.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Jbenito;4790284]Agreed. Domino-D-D tried to tighten things up and it resulted in some great posts by all sides. Look at us praising a poster that doesn't agree with the current status quo. Wild, huh?[/QUOTE]
Ok, this thread isn't about me but can I just have a moment to say how much it means to me to hear that? And how much I appreciate it and want to thank you! Also! I haven't been well enough the past few days to be on the boards (Post operative neuralgia! Yay!) But as soon as the pain management is back to where it needs to be I'm gonna be back there, facilitating that discussion and making sure everyone gets a safe place to voice their say! (Because [I]everyone's[/I] entitled to it, "repetitive" or not. I've always said actually, if the same things get brought up then, well, there's a reason for it.)
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But what is the reason for the same people bringing up the same things/complaints?
Insanity? A general lack of intellect? Nothing better to do? It's a day ending in Y?
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[QUOTE=Devaishwarya;4790935]But what is the reason for the same people bringing up the same things/complaints?
Insanity? A general lack of intellect? Nothing better to do? It's a day ending in Y?[/QUOTE]
No, I meant narratively there's a reason for it. Like; "Is Krakoa a cult?"--that's a question that the story has invited. The reader has seen something that reminds them of such behaviour and, so far, hasn't been refuted. It's speculation more than it is criticism. You can ask questions without it equating to blind hatred. Just as like when I asked once "How is Krakoa different from Brexit?" because the attitudes present in the characters reminded me of the attitudes seen from pro-brexit voters.
(Also, to be clear for anyone browsing, these are hypothetical questions designed for the sake of discussion and I'm not actually seeking an answer right now; that's for the narrative to prove/disprove, not other users!)
Also, that's not necessarily fair to say "A general lack of intellect." A bit ableist for one, plus disingenuous concerning how one reader's interpretation differs from another. Not cool, basically.
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[QUOTE=Devaishwarya;4790935]But what is the reason for the same people bringing up the same things/complaints?
Insanity? A general lack of intellect? Nothing better to do? It's a day ending in Y?[/QUOTE]
I prefer to think they are stuck in their personal social media heavy Groundhogs Day
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[QUOTE=Handsome men don't lose fights;4790222]Complaining about complaint threads is [U]stupid.[/U] In order to read them, you have to manually click on them. Voluntary participation, 100%. "'Drat! A fellow frequenter of this board has opined in a manner I find disagreeable! As such, I shall harangue his beliefs and call into question his character and intellect! Have no fear that my spiticeous lack of decorum will in any way contribute to the unhappy and quarrelsome state of this board, [I]for I am in the right![/I] Now harden your resolve and sally forth, lads! Victory awaits those who extoll their manly exhuberance! Doubt not the cause, less ye be thought a [I]girl!*[/I]"
[SIZE=2]*Sorry. It's not authentic sounding Victorian without any pointless sexism![/SIZE][/QUOTE]
The only way to change things is hop in and not be above it all as a cheap excuse to not try. Also, thread title doesn’t convey it’s a toxic fan thread. Personally, I just wanted to hear what Hickman had to say.
Edit: That same idea I just said could be lodged against the x-cult, as some call it; on the other hand the X-men made all sorts of different documented attempts in all sorts of ways. We’re seeing something new here.
