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[QUOTE=Flash Gordon;4828725]How sustainable was any of that? It was pretty much dropped after those writers left, and there's a movie out now where Harley Quinn runs the BoP.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, the New 52 screwed it up a lot, because for a long while it was pretty darn sustainable.
I'd rather not talk about what DC is doing with the Birds and Harley.
[QUOTE]Besides that though, her character was largely a support staff for Batman and whoever was Batgirl. I love Cass Cain, but not at the expense of Babs- and those 2 are just so different that there's no reason why they can't coexist. "Awesome hacker" is such a generic character, it can be anyone.[/QUOTE]
But both characters are extremely important to each other. Babs was instrumental to Cass' character development and we got to see Babs as a mentor.
"Awesome hacker" is a generic character but writers wrote Oracle as being much more deeper and complex then that.
[QUOTE=Godlike13;4828743]Oracle should have been more then just a Batgirl supporting character. Again Steph nor Cass weren’t so important that it made their supporting characters important.[/QUOTE]
I mean, I think she was already important, being in [I]Batgirl[/I] was just being prominently featured in a marquee Batfamily title.
[QUOTE]And this is confusing. You want Barbara Gordon as Batgirl to live up to the potential and importance she had as Oracle. Which if I’m following is what, her own story as a supporting character in Batgirl and not needing to be a main character? Its cool that you don’t think Oracle needs to be a main character, but i think Oracle deserved to be a main character. Oracle should have been a progressing star and it pains me that enough others didn’t want that too. I wanted more for Oracle then her own story as a supporting character in Batgirl, or eventually just the same old BoP. Especially given what was going on with all the other characters around her.[/QUOTE]
I didn't need Oracle to be the main character in [I]Batgirl[/I] because I saw her as the main character of [I]Birds of Prey.[/I] Just because she wasn't out in the field busting heads in a traditional Superhero manner did not detract from that in my mind, and she felt like a much stronger character then some of the stories we've seen of her as Batgirl.
I mean, if anything Babs has regressed since coming back as Batgirl beyond being a normal Superhero again, or at least whatever progression she has is inconsistent.
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[QUOTE=Artemisfanboy;4828668]Now, most of this damage has since been repaired. Steph and Cass recovered and came back from being pointlessly erased to avoid "competing" with Barbara. They at least have their memories of their times as Batgirl restored, and it's quite possible their histories will be restored in universe as well. The Birds were damaged, partly by losing Oracle as part of their team dynamic, but more by having their history wiped. If New 52 Birds of Prey had initially continued on directly from the previous series with Barbara getting back from her surgery and taking a position as field leader instead of mission control things would have been better. But despite the rebirth series initially continuing on from the New 52 they eventually retconned that the original pre-flashpoint Birds of Prey team existed with Barbara disbanding the team after her recovery. So I really consider it all water under the bridge now. Rebooting things again to excise Killing joke and her career as Oracle would risk breaking things again. Likewise trying to re-disable Barbara in universe would likely not be a very good idea.
The real remaining damage as been the removal of Oracle as a high profile example of disabled representation. The only real possible fix for this would be to create a replacement for Barbara as Oracle. Frankie could be moved into the Oracle role and identity(it would probably be the best option at this point working in the confines of the current continuity), but if that's their intention, they are dragging their heels on it. The less said about that evil AI calling itself Oracle currently the better. I don't feel re-disabling Barbara would even provide a solution to this problem as it wouldn't be likely to stick and we'd be right back to where we started.
Bottom line, I find it's better overall to leave things as they are with Babs currently as Batgirl, with Oracle part of her history, and try to fix the remaining problem of disabled representation with a replacement Oracle.
Back to the original point of the thread, Yes. If all the Robins can be acknowledged as being in continuity and being Robin, so can the Batgirls. Cass, Steph, and even Betty.[/QUOTE]
You make a good point, and I agree that trying to reboot again is probably not going to help, unless they do a full reboot with just Bruce, Dick, and Babs. I don't think replacing Oracle is gonna do it, though. Gus and Frankie both didn't work very well, mostly because the execution wasn't there for either (mostly for Gus).
And of course I agree 100% with your final point.
[QUOTE=Frontier;4828690]If anything I wish more people wanted more from Barbara Gordon as Batgirl then what we're currently getting. Something that lived up to the potential and importance she had as Oracle.[/QUOTE]
Yes. If Simone's Batgirl, or Burnside, or Rebirth had been as strong as Batgirl Year One or the best Birds of Prey stories for Oracle, I would agree that we didn't trade down for Batgirl from Oracle. But I don't see it.
[QUOTE=Flash Gordon;4828725]How sustainable was any of that? It was pretty much dropped after those writers left, and there's a movie out now where Harley Quinn runs the BoP.[/QUOTE]
And the movie where Harley Quinn runs the BoP is not being embraced by fans of the BoP or audiences generally. Doesn't seem like a strong argument.
[QUOTE=Godlike13;4828743]And this is confusing. You want Barbara Gordon as Batgirl to live up to the potential and importance she had as Oracle. Which if I’m following is what, her own story as a supporting character in Batgirl and not needing to be a main character? Its cool that you don’t think Oracle needs to be a main character, but i think Oracle deserved to be a main character. Oracle should have been a progressing star and it pains me that enough others didn’t want that too. I wanted more for Oracle then her own story as a supporting character in Batgirl, or eventually just the same old BoP. Especially given what was going on with all the other characters around her.[/QUOTE]
No, it's not making her a main character that lives up to her potential. It's putting her in stories that are as good as the best stories with Oracle. You seem to be arguing that Simone's run, Burnside, Larson, Scott, and Castellucci are telling stories that are equal to those stories. I disagree. That's probably as far as we can go.
[QUOTE=kjn;4828759]Also, doing Oracle as "awesome hacker" was lazy writing. Computers were the tools that Oracle used. But what she did was managing information and running superhero teams. And for that her prior experience as Batgirl was central.[/QUOTE]
Excellent point.
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[QUOTE=millernumber1;4829260]
And the movie where Harley Quinn runs the BoP is not being embraced by fans of the BoP or audiences generally. Doesn't seem like a strong argument.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I don't think there's an argument that the lack of Oracle has an affect on how this film is doing.
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[QUOTE=Vakanai;4829324]Yeah, I don't think there's an argument that the lack of Oracle has an affect on how this film is doing.[/QUOTE]
Actually, I think there's a case to be made for exactly that. The "Birds of Prey" IP has existed for something like 25 years and now WB / DC wants to cash in on the brand recognition with a feature film. Only thing is, the BOP brand has been built to (almost) always include Barbara Gordon as the center piece, as Oracle or as Batgirl.
Her absence renders the use of "Birds of Prey" IP moot then, except to fans of Black Canary only. It's why the film should've always been titled with Harley Quinn's name at the front — it's obviously a movie for Harley fans more than it is for fans of BOP.
Perhaps if the film [I]had[/I] included Barbara Gordon — maybe as a teenage Oracle, getting involved in crime-fighting from her bedroom and not yet in the field as Batgirl (until maybe the end of the film) — there would've been not only room for more excitement about the film, but also an opportunity to better fuse Oracle into the Batgirl mythos holistically, rather than the two being treated as completely separate identities.
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[QUOTE=gregpersons;4829384]Actually, I think there's a case to be made for exactly that. The "Birds of Prey" IP has existed for something like 25 years and now WB / DC wants to cash in on the brand recognition with a feature film. Only thing is, the BOP brand has been built to (almost) always include Barbara Gordon as the center piece, as Oracle or as Batgirl.
Her absence renders the use of "Birds of Prey" IP moot then, except to fans of Black Canary only. It's why the film should've always been titled with Harley Quinn's name at the front — it's obviously a movie for Harley fans more than it is for fans of BOP.
Perhaps if the film [I]had[/I] included Barbara Gordon — maybe as a teenage Oracle, getting involved in crime-fighting from her bedroom and not yet in the field as Batgirl (until maybe the end of the film) — there would've been not only room for more excitement about the film, but also an opportunity to better fuse Oracle into the Batgirl mythos holistically, rather than the two being treated as completely separate identities.[/QUOTE]
I actually think that a well written Oracle would have helped the film immensely... but that’s partially because the film’s roles for multiple characters is inconsistent and messy throughout, so even something as simple as a “mission control” character, or even just “the Big Good” leader would have helped the BoP side of the story, in the same way that Catwoman and Ivy might have been a better tool for Harley’s story...
...or how a Cassandra Cain that was the ass-kicker we know and love would have been a better fit for some for the action scenes.
Ultimately, I’d say a big part of the discussion for this thread, overall, is that omits need more writers who can marry skill with ambition, or need to learn to divvy up what people they have more skillfully.
I mean, yeah, I think that Oracle at her height was better than Babs as Batgirl at any of her epochs - because Oracle at her height was a major player in the DCU, a headline star and main character for BoP, and the main supporting character for Steph and Cass, and felt like a a “first string” player; someone with the impact of a starter, if not necessarily one of the super stars. As Oracle, she was a unique and powerful character. As Batgirl, she’s largely been just a ubiquitous female spinoff character. She needs someone who can have a Simone-during-BoP-Vol-1 level run as Batgirl to get back some of that importance, and not just coast off being the Batgirl who showed up in the 60’s on TV.
She really would benefit from gaining back some Oracle elements - the leadership, mentorship, and the dominance of information in a superhero world. And she would benefit from having Cass and Steph more officially aligned beneath her as her students and newest field agents.
Really, they could just need to work out some rotation where a big name writer who wants a crack at Batman but has an idea for the Batgirls or Robins splits time between those books, taking time off on one to write the other.
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[QUOTE=godisawesome;4829403]I actually think that a well written Oracle would have helped the film immensely... but that’s partially because the film’s roles for multiple characters is inconsistent and messy throughout, so even something as simple as a “mission control” character, or even just “the Big Good” leader would have helped the BoP side of the story, in the same way that Catwoman and Ivy might have been a better tool for Harley’s story...
...or how a Cassandra Cain that was the ass-kicker we know and love would have been a better fit for some for the action scenes.
Ultimately, I’d say a big part of the discussion for this thread, overall, is that omits need more writers who can marry skill with ambition, or need to learn to divvy up what people they have more skillfully.
I mean, yeah, I think that Oracle at her height was better than Babs as Batgirl at any of her epochs - because Oracle at her height was a major player in the DCU, a headline star and main character for BoP, and the main supporting character for Steph and Cass, and felt like a a “first string” player; someone with the impact of a starter, if not necessarily one of the super stars. As Oracle, she was a unique and powerful character. As Batgirl, she’s largely been just a ubiquitous female spinoff character. She needs someone who can have a Simone-during-BoP-Vol-1 level run as Batgirl to get back some of that importance, and not just coast off being the Batgirl who showed up in the 60’s on TV.
She really would benefit from gaining back some Oracle elements - the leadership, mentorship, and the dominance of information in a superhero world. And she would benefit from having Cass and Steph more officially aligned beneath her as her students and newest field agents.
Really, they could just need to work out some rotation where a big name writer who wants a crack at Batman but has an idea for the Batgirls or Robins splits time between those books, taking time off on one to write the other.[/QUOTE]
Brilliant post. I think devoting time and talent to the Batgirl title in general is needed, whoever you want in the cowl. I, of course, have my preferences (Babs, Cass, and Steph in the League of Batgirls), but even if it's not my preference, I maintain that Babs has not gotten anywhere close to as good a story as most of the Birds of Prey/Cassgirl/Stephgirl/Batgirl Year One/Black Mirror appearances.
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The problem with the Orcale role is that the people who are rooting for it seem to be under the assumption that the "good old glorious days" going to stay glorious forever as long as things stay the same which is completely unrealistic because things have to change. Orcale was the product of her time and a brilliant idea, but it can't work today because you can't tell me none of you have noticed that characters like Orcale are nonexistence in today media compared to how it was a decade ago? No one needs a character like that in fictional stories anymore and the Batfamily and the rest of DC heroes definitely don't. So, she would have been completely irrelevant and useless if she stayed as Oracle.
DC decided to make a decision regradless of personal feelings to have Barbara as Batgirl because she is far more marketable than Stephanie and Cassandra. It sucks I know, but you usually can't please everyone in business like this (just look at Robins fans, GL fans...etc).
[QUOTE]As fans of Batgirl and her true overall history: Do you think that DC should at least make an effort to restore things with what they used to be ?[/QUOTE]
No, because I want DC to looks forward instead of being stuck in the past. You wouldn't have got Stephanie and Cassandra in the first place if they didn't do it before.
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[QUOTE=Rise;4829604]The problem with the Orcale role is that the people who are rooting for it seem to be under the assumption that the "good old glorious days" going to stay glorious forever as long as things stay the same which is completely unrealistic because things have to change. Orcale was the product of her time and a brilliant idea, but it can't work today because you can't tell me none of you have noticed that characters like Orcale are nonexistence in today media compared to how it was a decade ago? No one needs a character like that in fictional stories anymore and the Batfamily and the rest of DC heroes definitely don't. So, she would have been completely irrelevant and useless if she stayed as Oracle.[/QUOTE]
I think if you read what we Oracle fans have written, we are well aware that not all of her stories are that good. But we judge a character based on their best stories, not their worst.
Also, while the "database hacker in a chair" is an obsolete character type right now, that was not the character during her heydays under Dixon and Simone. She was M from James Bond, the Charlie in Charlie's Angels, or Judge Fulton from The Persuaders. The mastermind, strategist, and general.
[QUOTE=Rise;4829604]No, because I want DC to looks forward instead of being stuck in the past. You wouldn't have got Stephanie and Cassandra in the first place if they didn't do it before.[/QUOTE]
Except with Babsgirl, they did just that. They went back to the past and got stuck there.
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And she is going to be a strategist for whom exactly? Which hero would need her when the majority are independent and don't need anyone to make plans for them?
[QUOTE]Except with Babsgirl, they did just that. They went back to the past and got stuck there.[/QUOTE]
Implying that I wouldn't mind her moving on from this role, but I definitely don't want her back as Oracle nor I exactly want Stephanie or Cassandra in the role of Batgirl either. I simply understand why they choose Barbara over them.
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There was an OC reporter informant in Batman and the Outsiders today. I'm sure that had that story been made a decade ago, it would've been Oracle.
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[QUOTE=Rise;4829604]The problem with the Orcale role is that the people who are rooting for it seem to be under the assumption that the "good old glorious days" going to stay glorious forever as long as things stay the same which is completely unrealistic because things have to change. Orcale was the product of her time and a brilliant idea, but it can't work today because you can't tell me none of you have noticed that characters like Orcale are nonexistence in today media compared to how it was a decade ago? No one needs a character like that in fictional stories anymore and the Batfamily and the rest of DC heroes definitely don't. So, she would have been completely irrelevant and useless if she stayed as Oracle.[/QUOTE]
I really don't see how she was becoming outdated. I guess maybe you could argue that some of the magic computer hacking was becoming less accepted as more people became aware of how technology worked, but even then I'm not convinced. And her role was more than just being hacker, She was a leader and one woman mission control. She provided a important support network and leadership without needing to be in the field. I don't see how that can become entirely outdated. I think she could (and should) have remained in the role and continued to be a positive example of disabled representation. But at the same time, I believe that ship has sailed. There's no real good way to go back at this point. So we need to find a way forward.
[QUOTE=Rise;4829687]And she is going to be a strategist for whom exactly? Which hero would need her when the majority are independent and don't need anyone to make plans for them?[/QUOTE]
I' say this is were getting into the methods of storytelling. Do you want characters to be one hundred percent self sufficient without any need for any support network or help? Or do you think that them not being able to do somethings and rely on somebody else for help can enrich things? It depends on one's preferences I suppose, as well as how one executes the story they're telling.
[QUOTE=Rise;4829604]DC decided to make a decision regradless of personal feelings to have Barbara as Batgirl because she is far more marketable than Stephanie and Cassandra. It sucks I know, but you usually can't please everyone in business like this (just look at Robins fans, GL fans...etc).[/QUOTE]
Oh, personal feelings played a part in it. Personal feelings towards strongly preferring her as Batgirl. But I also can understand where those feeling come from. I've found myself in similar places where I feel a character has been screwed over and want certain changes undone. So I've tried understand to see both ways on this issue. And yes Marketability provided extra justification, as pretty much adaptation had preferred to use a version of Barbara as Batgirl. And I can see why. You could argue Steph didn't have much of a chance before the reboot to establish her self as Batgirl though, or to see if there was any interest in using her in an adaptation. And if they felt it was for the better of the character, it still could have been executed with more finesse and care, without erasing any characters or histories. But it's not really relevant anymore. As I've acknowledged most of the collateral damage has since been fixed. So once again moving forward.
[QUOTE=Rise;4829687]No, because I want DC to looks forward instead of being stuck in the past. You wouldn't have got Stephanie and Cassandra in the first place if they didn't do it before.[/QUOTE]
Once again I find it interesting how suggesting Cass and Steph's Batgirl careers be more fully acknowledged, without any suggestion of returning Babs to Oracle, has snowballed pretty entirely into a debate on the merits of Batgirl vs Oracle. Presumably because acknowledging their Batgirl careers comes with acknowledging Babs Oracle career, and there is a strong contingent of fans who don't want any remainder of it all, regardless of its positives. Really makes me appreciate that the Oracle Code is a thing and that even if we can't have Oracle in the main continuity we can still get things with her in the role.
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None of you have answered me yet, which hero you want Barbara to play second fiddle to? Which team needs her when they all at least have one member who either genius/leader/strategist or whatever? If Oracle is such "important" and totally not outdated, why not give it to either Stephanie or Cassandra? After all, the whole issue is all about them.
If they want to give them back their history, be my guest. Resorting things to how it was in the 90s/00s? Yeah, no.
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Of all the outdated, over-the-top things in comics, I find it funny that Oracle's hacking (and Cass' martial arts) often get attacked for being outdated. That they're part of demographics DC tends to ignore is rather telling IMO.
[QUOTE=Rise;4829759]None of you have answered me yet, which hero you want Barbara to play second fiddle to? Which teams needs her when they all at least have one member who either genius/leader/strategist or whatever? If Oracle is such "important" and totally not outdated, why not give it to either Stephanie or Cassandra? After all, the whole issue is all about them.
If they want to give them back their history, be guest. Resorting things to how it was in the 90s/00s? Yeah, no.[/QUOTE]
The Birds of Prey certainly don't have a strategist right now.
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[QUOTE=Rise;4829759]None of you have answered me yet, which hero you want Barbara to play second fiddle to? Which team needs her when they all at least have one member who either genius/leader/strategist or whatever? If Oracle is such "important" and totally not outdated, why not give it to either Stephanie or Cassandra? After all, the whole issue is all about them.[/QUOTE]
Everyone.
She's the control for the Birds of Prey. She's the girl back home for Nightwing. She's Batman's conscience. She's the secretary-general of the Justice League. She's the technology forensics consultant for Flash. And she's the mentor for Steph and Cass and whatever other Batgirl will appear in the future.
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Everyone is doing just fine without her as Orcale for over a decade because like I said already, the computer guy is no longer relevent in fiction nowadays.
Also, why Barbara can't be any of what you mentioned without being Oracle?
[B]Agent Z:[/B] First of all, me saying Oracle is outdated concept isn't attack. Second of all, Supernan says hey. You know, the guy who many keep saying that he is outdated and DC has been trying for decades to modernize him which what they are trying to do with Barbara.
