Hawkeye and Widow both also started out as Iron Man rogues, a far cry from the heroes they are today.
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Hawkeye and Widow both also started out as Iron Man rogues, a far cry from the heroes they are today.
Susan Storm went from the most useless member of the Fantastic Four to the being the most powerful one on the team.
[QUOTE=Frontier;4889916]Steve Rogers hasn't changed much.[/QUOTE]
I disagree, Cap's entire premise has changed.
The introduction of the Man out of Time aspect was massive.
[QUOTE=Jcogginsa;4891438]I disagree, Cap's entire premise has changed.
The introduction of the Man out of Time aspect was massive.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, to be honest, I’ve previously heard Captain America described as “a DC character published by Marvel” in that he didn’t really have any noticeable flaws or internal conflicts that Marvel characters were said to usually have until he after he was time-displaced and went through conflicts such as Watergate and giving up the Captain America title. One could probably say that it was at that point that the Steve Rogers persona became just as an important point of focus as the Captain America one.
[QUOTE=Drops Of Venus;4891017]
For Betsy, yeah, I like that better too. Which is not to say Ninja Psylocke isn’t good; it is, but it fits Kwannon soooo much better. I think Fallen Angels just proved why.[B] Kwannon has an organic connection to that identity which leads to more authentic stories, while Betsy was changed purely for superficial reasons. [/B]It was basically just Marvel using the “women of color are exotic” trope to make their white character look cool, which lasted way longer than it should have. So I’m glad things have finally been corrected, and it’s specially ironic that it happened during the tenure of the EIC who used to pretend to be asian for clout.[/QUOTE]
Kwannon has an organic connection to the identity Betsy created for herself?
OK.
[QUOTE=Electricmastro;4891456]Yeah, to be honest, I’ve previously heard Captain America described as “a DC character published by Marvel” in that he didn’t really have any noticeable flaws or internal conflicts that Marvel characters were said to usually have until he after he was time-displaced and went through conflicts such as Watergate and giving up the Captain America title. One could probably say that it was at that point that the Steve Rogers persona became just as an important point of focus as the Captain America one.[/QUOTE]
Steve Rogers punched Hitler in the face on his first cover. And he was explicitly anti-fascist in a way that no DC character published in that time was. Sure Superman was "the champion of the opressed" in the early Siegel-Shuster years and you can see him as a New Dealer but there was no actual politics there.
In that sense Steve Rogers reflected "the world outside your window" from the get-go. So I'd argue against Steve Rogers being somehow "more DC" than other Marvel characters.
And Steve Rogers' does have huge amount of personal conflict and issues with vulnerability and so on. He's standing and upholding an ideal while dealing with a reality that doesn't always correspond with that. Him being "loyal to nothing, general, but the dream" is personal conflict at its deepest.
[QUOTE=Triniking1234;4891893]Kwannon has an organic connection to the identity Betsy created for herself?
OK.[/QUOTE]
I meant the ninja thing, not the Psylocke name. Betsy would’ve never been a sexy, violent ninja if Kwannon didn’t exist. They changed a lot about Betsy, from the way that she dressed to the way she behaved, after she got the new body, and that was not a coincidence. That is not the kind of decision that would’ve organically happened if she had stayed as her old self. They changed her because they wanted an excuse to make her more like Kwannon. And yeah, I acknowledge that Kwannon has now “stolen” something from Betsy, but her taking over the Psylocke codename is not as bad as Betsy taking over her body and the whole ninja shtick, because, unlike Kwannon, Betsy chose to leave that part of her behind to fulfill her family legacy. The current story is giving both of them agency, and that’s good.
[QUOTE=Drops Of Venus;4892297]I meant the ninja thing, not the Psylocke name. Betsy would’ve never been a sexy, violent ninja if Kwannon didn’t exist. They changed a lot about Betsy, from the way that she dressed to the way she behaved, after she got the new body, and that was not a coincidence. That is not the kind of decision that would’ve organically happened if she had stayed as her old self. [B]They changed her because they wanted an excuse to make her more like Kwannon[/B]. And yeah, I acknowledge that Kwannon has now “stolen” something from Betsy, but her taking over the Psylocke codename is not as bad as Betsy taking over her body and the whole ninja shtick, because, unlike Kwannon, Betsy chose to leave that part of her behind to fulfill her family legacy. The current story is giving both of them agency, and that’s good.[/QUOTE]
How could they have changed her to be "more like Kwannon" when the character didn't even exist when the Lady Mandarin event went down? I probably wouldn't describe the process as "natural" since these are fantasy comics but the events of Betsy's change was already chronicled from the tail end of the Australia team's story to when she encounters the Hand and becomes Lady Mandarin. And honestly, a British girl as a ninja wouldn't have been a big deal since the media already had characters in the trope such as Iron Fist, Snake Eyes and Elektra. The "stealing" thing wasn't even a issue until the Sisterhood story since Kwannon wasn't even interested reversing the change when she joined the X-men as Revanche.
[QUOTE=Agent Z;4891433]Susan Storm went from the most useless member of the Fantastic Four to the being the most powerful one on the team.[/QUOTE]
I think every girl did...
Jean with just Telekinesis to an Omega mutant
Wanda with just her luck powers
Franklin certainly changed from a glorified prop to a whiny petulant pretender god who would flip out over his worshippers sacrificing fruit so much as a minute before perfect ripeness.
[QUOTE=Drops Of Venus;4892297]I meant the ninja thing, not the Psylocke name. Betsy would’ve never been a sexy, violent ninja if Kwannon didn’t exist. [/QUOTE]
It's literally the opposite. Kwannon would not exist if they hadn't made Betsy into a sexy ninja
Thunderbolts
Melissa Gold, from a common thief Screaming Mimi to the Heroic Songbird!
And the rest of the thunderbolts. Abner Jenkins from Bettle to MachX, Norbert Ebersol from Fixxer to Techno, Erik Josten from Powerman/Goliath to Atlas.
Well except for Dr. Karla Sofen, Moonstone is moonstone.
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Like I said in my first post in this thread, Melissa and Abner have stuck it out, but the others reverted to type and have not changed. You don't hear the Meteorite or Techno codenames used any more.
Maybe I have my comic book history wrong but didn't Black Widow start off kinda like as a female Spider-Man?
[QUOTE=Blind Wedjat;4892886]Maybe I have my comic book history wrong but didn't Black Widow start off kinda like as a female Spider-Man?[/QUOTE]
Nah, she was more like an evil Bond girl.