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[URL="https://bleedingcool.com/comics/the-eisner-awards-winners-2022-as-announced-at-san-diego-comic-con/"]Congrats to Jen Bartel[/URL]
[B]Eisner for Best Cover Artist[/B]
[QUOTE]
Jen Bartel, Future State Immortal Wonder Woman #1 & 2, Wonder Woman Black & Gold #1, Wonder Woman 80th Anniversary (DC); Women's History Month variant covers (Marvel)
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=John Venus;6131909]You have read the story you're constantly criticizing right?
[/QUOTE]
Yes but I don't wanna put words into your mouth so I'm asking you to explain by your own words.
My interpretation of your comment is:
"Batman wanted to apprehend a girl for killing a man in self defense, and would stop at nothing to put her in jail."
and thus according to you it makes sense that Diana, whose goal in life is to fight for the dignity of all humans and empower others and believes in redemption to a fault, would [b]choose to put aside her indestructible lasso of restraining, and instead drop Batman to the ground in the raining concrete, put her mountain crushing foot on top of him, actually, on top of his actual mortal head while he lays down incapable of even moving, and she would threaten him in a humiliating manner with these three words "Don't..Get..Up..". [/b]
Oh and the two of them happen to be teammates in a group dedicated to Justice and have stopped many dictators and abusers for decades. This isn't Dr Psycho, a sexist serial abuser being treated in what we would otherwise call police brutality. Putting you foot on top of someone's head while they are lying on the ground isn't a for of submission. It's always about taking their dignity away. Diana is the last person that would take another hero's dignity away while they are doing what they think is right, regardless of how wrong they are and how much of a jerk they are.
And my main critique isn't even the fact that Diana did this in one brief moment in the book. It's the fact that it's the freaking cover and everyone here celebrates it,[U] when it's basically the equivalent of Green Arrow abandoning Speedy after finding out he is a drug addict[/U]. It's one fo the saddest moments in their history where they went against all the values they defended, and it should be look at that way, not as a symbol of their glory and strength.
Imagine if people kept posting this in the Green Arrow thread as they talked about how much of a social activist he is
[img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6e/Green_Lantern_vol.2_85_%281971%29.jpg[/img]
The same people that want Diana to be understanding to Cheetah, are the people celebrating her using a symbol of humiliation and supremacy on Batman
[QUOTE=Gaius;6132224][URL="https://bleedingcool.com/comics/the-eisner-awards-winners-2022-as-announced-at-san-diego-comic-con/"]Congrats to Jen Bartel[/URL]
[B]Eisner for Best Cover Artist[/B][/QUOTE]
Congratulations! Her Wonder Woman is okay but her She-Hulk is perfect!
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[QUOTE=John Venus;6131909]You have read the story you're constantly criticizing right?
Yeah, true. But eye for an eye leaves everybody blind.
If I had to make any alteration to the story, I would have Bruce either being subtly manipulated by the Furies or the girl ended up harming someone close to him (Gordon, Vesper or Vicki or Dick) and that's why he is so hellbent on capturing the girl.[/QUOTE]
I think those changes would have somewhat undermined the main point of the story.
[QUOTE=John Venus;6131927]Definitely would have made more sense if it was someone like Captain Atom, Peacemaker or Vigilante.[/QUOTE]
Vigilante maybe. Captain Atom and Peacemaker normally doesn't get involved with this kind of stuff.
[QUOTE=Alpha;6132250]Yes but I don't wanna put words into your mouth so I'm asking you to explain by your own words.
My interpretation of your comment is:
"Batman wanted to apprehend a girl for killing a man in self defense, and would stop at nothing to put her in jail."
and thus according to you it makes sense that Diana, whose goal in life is to fight for the dignity of all humans and empower others and believes in redemption to a fault, would [b]choose to put aside her indestructible lasso of restraining, and instead drop Batman to the ground in the raining concrete, put her mountain crushing foot on top of him, actually, on top of his actual mortal head while he lays down incapable of even moving, and she would threaten him in a humiliating manner with these three words "Don't..Get..Up..". [/b]
The same people that want Diana to be understanding to Cheetah, are the people celebrating her using a symbol of humiliation and supremacy on Batman[/QUOTE]
Using Diana's wisdom from Athena, she probably knows how deadly Batman can be, especially with him one-shotting her arch-enemy Cheetah. He has even taken her out by kicking her in the stomach, so she knows she has to be on her toes when going up against him. Plus those batarangs have sharp edges so I am sure Diana is cognizant of that because of her vulnerability to sharp, pointy objects. She [B]needed[/B] to get that boot on his face. Besides, Batman needs his comeuppance every once in a while otherwise Diana loses any credibility that she still has.
But, since you always like to point out how much you dislike that cover, you can always make a poll and see if a majority of posters would agree with you. My own opinion is that it wouldn't be many, but I could be wrong.
[QUOTE=Alpha;6132250]Yes but I don't wanna put words into your mouth so I'm asking you to explain by your own words.
My interpretation of your comment is:
"Batman wanted to apprehend a girl for killing a man in self defense, and would stop at nothing to put her in jail."
and thus according to you it makes sense that Diana, whose goal in life is to fight for the dignity of all humans and empower others and believes in redemption to a fault, would [b]choose to put aside her indestructible lasso of restraining, and instead drop Batman to the ground in the raining concrete, put her mountain crushing foot on top of him, actually, on top of his actual mortal head while he lays down incapable of even moving, and she would threaten him in a humiliating manner with these three words "Don't..Get..Up..". [/b]
Oh and the two of them happen to be teammates in a group dedicated to Justice and have stopped many dictators and abusers for decades. This isn't Dr Psycho, a sexist serial abuser being treated in what we would otherwise call police brutality. Putting you foot on top of someone's head while they are lying on the ground isn't a for of submission. It's always about taking their dignity away. Diana is the last person that would take another hero's dignity away while they are doing what they think is right, regardless of how wrong they are and how much of a jerk they are.
And my main critique isn't even the fact that Diana did this in one brief moment in the book. It's the fact that it's the freaking cover and everyone here celebrates it,[U] when it's basically the equivalent of Green Arrow abandoning Speedy after finding out he is a drug addict[/U]. It's one fo the saddest moments in their history where they went against all the values they defended, and it should be look at that way, not as a symbol of their glory and strength.
Imagine if people kept posting this in the Green Arrow thread as they talked about how much of a social activist he is
[img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6e/Green_Lantern_vol.2_85_%281971%29.jpg[/img]
The same people that want Diana to be understanding to Cheetah, are the people celebrating her using a symbol of humiliation and supremacy on Batman[/QUOTE]
Nothing Diana did to Bruce in that story compares to what he's done to his fellow heroes or even random street thugs.
[QUOTE=Agent Z;6132473]Nothing Diana did to Bruce in that story compares to what he's done to his fellow heroes or even random street thugs.[/QUOTE]
And none of that is enough for Diana of all people to think she should take away all the human dignity of Batman in such a brutal way.
Diana doing police brutality on a teammate just isn't my cup of tea
And I have no idea why you guys celebrate her doing soemthing that goes so against her values.
Specially when you want her to redeem her villains
[QUOTE=Alpha;6132504]And none of that is enough for Diana of all people to think she should take away all the human dignity of Batman in such a brutal way.
Diana doing police brutality on a teammate just isn't my cup of tea
And I have no idea why you guys celebrate her doing soemthing that goes so against her values.
Specially when you want her to redeem her villains[/QUOTE]
He got what he deserved for being an ### cheetah has a curse affecting her mental state. What is batman's excuse?
Thing is it's hard to feel much sympathy for Bruce because he's become so established as a condescending, patronizing, unreasonable prick--particularly to Diana. He'd been going in this direction before [I]Hiketeia[/I], and he's continued getting written like this to this day.
I mean, if we remember the story, Bruce is the one who escalates to violence first. When he first confronts her, Diana tries to be reasonable and Bruce just yells at her and winds up punching her in the stomach.
Want to talk about respecting your teammate and fellow hero, maybe Bruce should give it a try some time.
And that's frankly consistent to how he often treats Diana--like she's an out-of-touch fool or naive waif too stupid to comprehend real life and should just take his orders.
Is it any surprise just a few years later, we'd end up with the Max Lord/Brother Eye debacle where--despite it really being his fault--Bruce decided the real problem was Diana and took it upon himself to set up a secret identity for her (that she never asked for) in order to "help" her? The same guy who spends an inordinate amount of time and effort studying his "friends'" weakness and conjuring tortuous contingency plans in case they get out line.
I understand the perspective that Diana should be above this and take the higher ground, but...Bruce is a dick and a terrible friend and teammate, and he [B]should[/B] be brought down a peg more often.
And it's not like she publicly humiliated him for all the world to see. She stepped on his head and gave him an ultimatum. If she really wanted to rob him of his dignity, there's far more and worse she could've done.
[QUOTE=Robanker;6131598]
But the action itself and what happens during the fight in general feels like fanfic gone too far. Neither of them feel in character for me.[/QUOTE]
This is how it is in most hero vs hero conflicts.Which is why I hate reading them.Characters always have to act unnecessarily aggressive to justify the conflict.
[QUOTE=mystical41;6132556]He got what he deserved for being an ### cheetah has a curse affecting her mental state. What is batman's excuse?[/QUOTE]
Cheetah has purposedly killed many people with glee. As has Mayfly. And Silver Swan hurt plenty of people too. Giganta destroyed cities.
[QUOTE=Alpha;6132504]And none of that is enough for Diana of all people to think she should take away all the human dignity of Batman in such a brutal way.[/QUOTE]
Brutality is not a foreign language to Bruce Wayne.
This is a man that has created plans to subject his teammates to horrific torture -- while doing nothing about the villain he [I]knows[/I] to be dangerous -- and created an AI that went rogue and murdered numerous people, including some of the Amazons.
And that's just looking at what Bruce has done to Diana.
A boot on the head is nothing in comparison to what Bruce has been willing to subject other people to.
[QUOTE]Diana doing police brutality on a teammate just isn't my cup of tea[/QUOTE]
It isn't mine either. But giving what an asshole Bruce was during this era and continues to be afterwards, I'm considerably less bothered by her doing it to him specifically.
[QUOTE]And I have no idea why you guys celebrate her doing soemthing that goes so against her values.
Specially when you want her to redeem her villains[/QUOTE]
Frankly, I think very few WW fans give a damn about her redeeming her villains, especially since it isn't going to stick for most of them. At best, you'll see some fans who want Silver Swan and Cheetah to be redeemed, and the former is at least more victim than villain. Hell, you've admitted to celebrating stories where Diana mocks and taunts her enemies in ways much more vicious than what she does to Bruce in Hiketeia.
[QUOTE=Alpha;6132618]Cheetah has purposedly killed many people with glee. As has Mayfly. And Silver Swan hurt plenty of people too. Giganta destroyed cities.[/QUOTE]
And Diana hasn't treated them with kid gloves either. Not even Silver Swan.
[QUOTE=Alpha;6132618]Cheetah has purposedly killed many people with glee. As has Mayfly. And Silver Swan hurt plenty of people too. Giganta destroyed cities.[/QUOTE]
Most of those characters have mental problems and In Cheetah's case a curse. Batman has been a hypovcrite and a freak specially towards WW far too many times. What is his excuse?
[QUOTE=Guy_McNichts;6132578]
And it's not like she publicly humiliated him for all the world to see. She stepped on his head and gave him an ultimatum. If she really wanted to rob him of his dignity, there's far more and worse she could've done.[/QUOTE]
My problem isn't with what Bruce feels, it's that this is a sad moment for Diana. All of this goes against her values. Why do people celebrate an image that represents the opposite of what she stands for?
If she was a cop with his foot on the head of a robber lying on the ground in concrete while it's rainingbwe would all agree that this was police brutality.
Except in this case Bruce may be an A-hole but he's doing what he think is right and just, and Diana isn't just a cop, she is a mountain crushing superhuman and teammate of his, and she has her industructible restrain tool by her hip.
I'm totally fine with Power Girl or Vixen or Big Barda doing that to Batman. But Wonder Woman doing that is a tragic moment for her, and I love her, so I expect others to celebrate what is great about her. This isn't it at all
[QUOTE=mystical41;6132620]Most of those characters have mental problems and In Cheetah's case a curse. Batman has been a hypovcrite and a freak specially towards WW far too many times. What is his excuse?[/QUOTE]
Bruce Wayne is obsessed with the murder of his parents when he was 8 years old and dresses like a bat every night. He clearly isn't mentally well.
His excuse for what? I'm not defending Bruce. I'm defending Diana who I most care about.
[QUOTE=Guy_McNichts;6132578]Thing is it's hard to feel much sympathy for Bruce because he's become so established as a condescending, patronizing, unreasonable prick--particularly to Diana. He'd been going in this direction before [I]Hiketeia[/I], and he's continued getting written like this to this day.
I mean, if we remember the story, Bruce is the one who escalates to violence first. When he first confronts her, Diana tries to be reasonable and Bruce just yells at her and winds up punching her in the stomach.
Want to talk about respecting your teammate and fellow hero, maybe Bruce should give it a try some time.
And that's frankly consistent to how he often treats Diana--like she's an out-of-touch fool or naive waif too stupid to comprehend real life and should just take his orders.
Is it any surprise just a few years later, we'd end up with the Max Lord/Brother Eye debacle where--despite it really being his fault--Bruce decided the real problem was Diana and took it upon himself to set up a secret identity for her (that she never asked for) in order to "help" her? The same guy who spends an inordinate amount of time and effort studying his "friends'" weakness and conjuring tortuous contingency plans in case they get out line.
I understand the perspective that Diana should be above this and take the higher ground, but...Bruce is a dick and a terrible friend and teammate, and he [B]should[/B] be brought down a peg more often.
And it's not like she publicly humiliated him for all the world to see. She stepped on his head and gave him an ultimatum. If she really wanted to rob him of his dignity, there's far more and worse she could've done.[/QUOTE]
Bruce is also aware of what the Hiketeia ritual is by that point in the story, given he tried it out himself (:p), so he was pretty willing to play life-and-death with Diana when it suited his own interests.
[QUOTE=Agent Z;6132619]
Frankly, I think very few WW fans give a damn about her redeeming her villains, especially since it isn't going to stick for most of them. At best, you'll see some fans who want Silver Swan and Cheetah to be redeemed, and the former is at least more victim than villain. Hell, you've admitted to celebrating stories where Diana mocks and taunts her enemies in ways much more vicious than what she does to Bruce in Hiketeia.[/QUOTE]
Bruce isn't her villain. And which stories have I celebrated where Diana mocks people trying to do what they think is right?
[QUOTE=Alpha;6132637]Bruce isn't her villain. [/QUOTE]
Diana, the League and the Batfamily aren't villains either. He's still done far worse to them.
[QUOTE]And which stories have I celebrated where Diana mocks people trying to do what they think is right?[/QUOTE]
Didn't you say you liked the Messner-Loebs run where Diana mocks her enemies?
[QUOTE=Agent Z;6132655]Diana, the League and the Batfamily aren't villains either. He's still done far worse to them.[/quote]
And I agree someone should take him down a peg. Someone like Power Girl, Vixen or Big Barda
[Quote]
Didn't you say you liked the Messner-Loebs run where Diana mocks her enemies?[/QUOTE]
Oh you mean her literally taunting them? We were talking about Diana brutally taking the human dignity from a human being.
I don't have any problem with Diana making light jokes about gangsters, assassins and tyrannical space slavers.
[QUOTE=Gaius;6132633]Bruce is also aware of what the Hiketeia ritual is by that point in the story, given he tried it out himself (:p), so he was pretty willing to play life-and-death with Diana when it suited his own interests.[/QUOTE]
He even kissed her thigh for like...no flippin' reason. XD
[QUOTE=Alpha;6132667]And I agree someone should take him down a peg. Someone like Power Girl, Vixen or Big Barda[/QUOTE]
What does it matter who does it? Vixen and Power Girl aren't much different from Diana if that is what you are implying.
[QUOTE=I'm a Fish;6132683]He even kissed her thigh for like...no flippin' reason. XD[/QUOTE]
[IMG]https://c.tenor.com/hdp8selMOe4AAAAC/kinky-blazing-saddles.gif[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Agent Z;6132684]What does it matter who does it? Vixen and Power Girl aren't much different from Diana if that is what you are implying.[/QUOTE]
Yes they are. I love Vixen and I think Power Girl is the boss. But they are far heavier than Diana. They can be quite mean at times, and much less forgiving than Diana. Which is part of their charm.
[QUOTE=Alpha;6132823]Yes they are. I love Vixen and I think Power Girl is the boss. But they are far heavier than Diana. They can be quite mean at times, and much less forgiving than Diana. Which is part of their charm.[/QUOTE]
Diana can be just as "mean" and unforgiving as Vixen and Power Girl. Arguably moreso, given Diana has killed more times than Vixen and Power Girl has never killed once. None of these women would take any crap from Bruce.
So Jen Bartel won best cover artist for her Wonder Woman covers. So all together Wonder Woman won 3 awards
[QUOTE=Agent Z;6132910]Diana can be just as "mean" and unforgiving as Vixen and Power Girl. Arguably moreso, given Diana has killed more times than Vixen and Power Girl has never killed once. None of these women would take any crap from Bruce.[/QUOTE]
There are honorable knights that kill out of necessity, but still respect their adversaries and pronote the dignity of people. Diana is one of those
And "not taking any crap" isn't the same thing as brutal humiliation
[QUOTE=Alpha;6132953]There are honorable knights that kill out of necessity, but still respect their adversaries and pronote the dignity of people. Diana is one of those
And "not taking any crap" isn't the same thing as brutal humiliation[/QUOTE]
And neither Vixen nor Power Girl has ever "brutally humiliated" Bruce either. As another poster said, what Diana did to Bruce is incredibly tame. As I keep repeating, Bruce has done much, much worse.
Edit: Remember when I brought up the Messner-Loebs run? She did quite a bit more than mocking her enemies.
[IMG]https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-512ca0bbe4ce6689789b16402714f62b-lq[/IMG]
Keep in mind that Diana can survive an explosion while the Joker cannot.
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;6132949]So Jen Bartel won best cover artist for her Wonder Woman covers. So all together Wonder Woman won 3 awards[/QUOTE]
That it beat out the worst Wonder Woman writer in one of the categories is what we call the good stuff.
[QUOTE=Agent Z;6132960]And neither Vixen nor Power Girl has ever "brutally humiliated" Bruce either. As another poster said, what Diana did to Bruce is incredibly tame.[/quote]
Since when is putting your miuntain crushing foot on top of a person's head while they are lying down on concrete in the rain and theeatening him to not get up (which he obviously can't) considered "Tame Humiliation"?
And I'm not sure how familiar you are with Power Girl and Vixen but they both have famous anger issues. Vixen was that way since way back in the 70s, eventually joined the Suicide Squad, and in the late 90s and early 2000s had to deal with her losing control over herself when she was pissed off. Power Girl started out being very gentle, but over the decades came to be known as kind of harsh and intense. Mostly in control though.
[Quote]As I keep repeating, Bruce has done much, much worse. [/quote]
I agree that even by 2003 Bruce had done much worse, and that isn't a reason for Diana to forget that she stands for the dignity of people and is here to empower them, and that Bruce is a teammate of hers dedicated to justice in his egotistical way.
[Quote]
Edit: Remember when I brought up the Messner-Loebs run? She did quite a bit more than mocking her enemies.
[IMG]https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-512ca0bbe4ce6689789b16402714f62b-lq[/IMG]
Keep in mind that Diana can survive an explosion while the Joker cannot.[/QUOTE]
Haha, Diana is taunting him yes. What were you trying to argue? Nothing there is humiliating. But if there's anyone that lacks absolutely any dignity it's definitely Joker (and Doctor Psycho), so as I have stated before, it would be much more in character for Diana to brutally humiliate that sadistic serial killer and rapist as he is trying to blow other people up, rather than Batman while he's trying to aprehend a woman for comitting murder in self defense.
[B]And as I've said multiple times, my jiggest problem isn't that Diana broke all of her values in this sad moment. The thing I can't believe is that fans if this character would celebrate one of the saddest moments of her career.[/b]
Just in time for Comic-Con, I managed to finish the second episode of my [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvuXORszb_Q]Epic Wonder Woman Deep Dive[/url] video essay for anyone who's interested :D
Much of this is about Robert Kanigher (aka the one guy who wrote more Wonder Woman issues than any other writer in her history) and the wacky Silver Agey love-triangle hijinks of the 60s (WW invented being a furry long before Batman had the notion!) though the latter part goes into detail about the actual moral panic and Comics Code censorship that necessitated these whimsical, family-friendly stories.
[QUOTE=I'm a Fish;6132683]He even kissed her thigh for like...no flippin' reason. XD[/QUOTE]
No reason. Right. There was no reason for that. Not one. Not a single thing.
Absolutely not. :p
[QUOTE=Robanker;6133299]No reason. Right. There was no reason for that. Not one. Not a single thing.
Absolutely not. :p[/QUOTE]
What’s some casual thigh kissing among [I][B]FrIEnDz[/B][/I]. :p
Diana is allowed to lose her nerve sometimes. Specially around a guy like batman.
[QUOTE=I'm a Fish;6133375]What’s some casual thigh kissing among [I][B]FrIEnDz[/B][/I]. :p[/QUOTE]
Considering the deathwish he had in that book he's probably just hoping she'd pop his head with those thighs. Then again, he does have a history of forcing kisses onto Wonder Woman so it could just be his inner sleaze.
[QUOTE=mystical41;6133463]Diana is allowed to lose her nerve sometimes. Specially around a guy like batman.[/QUOTE]
I hold her to the same esteem as Superman, who I generally don't like losing their cool and beating on heroes. Villains? Absolutely. I can even take them being direct-to-rude to those they don't like... But bullying their allies is a bridge too far for this reader.
I'm not saying Bruce doesn't deserve to be taken down a peg or six, but I do think Clark and Diana wouldn't beat him any more than they have to. Frankly speaking, they're better than that. Of the Trinity, Bruce is the petty one who needs to beat up his friends. Clark and Diana are not.
[QUOTE=BrianWilly;6133194]Just in time for Comic-Con, I managed to finish the second episode of my [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvuXORszb_Q]Epic Wonder Woman Deep Dive[/url] video essay for anyone who's interested :D
Much of this is about Robert Kanigher (aka the one guy who wrote more Wonder Woman issues than any other writer in her history) and the wacky Silver Agey love-triangle hijinks of the 60s (WW invented being a furry long before Batman had the notion!) though the latter part goes into detail about the actual moral panic and Comics Code censorship that necessitated these whimsical, family-friendly stories.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for sharing, I enjoyed your other two videos.
[QUOTE=Robanker;6133536]Considering the deathwish he had in that book he's probably just hoping she'd pop his head with those thighs. Then again, he does have a history of forcing kisses onto Wonder Woman so it could just be his inner sleaze.
[/QUOTE]
Oh, yeah that moment. Bad as it is, given the history of comics and DC's own history, I'm more surprised there's not more of those moments with WW.
Apparently it's a reference to an actual Greek myth with Artemis.
And the weirdest thing about Hiketeia to me is that the same writer that made Diana someone willing to brutally humiliate a fellow teammate also went on to state Diana's love for Bruce was what would allow her to become a Star Sapphire (which is a ship I definitely hate, Diana would never fall in love with Bruce)
[QUOTE=Alpha;6133089]Since when is putting your miuntain crushing foot on top of a person's head while they are lying down on concrete in the rain and theeatening him to not get up (which he obviously can't) considered "Tame Humiliation"?[/QUOTE]
Since they do it after him getting violent first and trying to gamble with her and Billy's lives. Or is the issue that you think Diana can't control her strength to the point she'd kill Bruce?
[QUOTE]And I'm not sure how familiar you are with Power Girl and Vixen but they both have famous anger issues. Vixen was that way since way back in the 70s, eventually joined the Suicide Squad, and in the late 90s and early 2000s had to deal with her losing control over herself when she was pissed off. Power Girl started out being very gentle, but over the decades came to be known as kind of harsh and intense. Mostly in control though.[/QUOTE]
Vixen's anger issues were a result of her powers affecting her due to the animal instincts of the creatures channeled overwhelming her. The worst it got was killing a guy who murdered her friends and she immediately felt guilty about it. Her anger issues were only a thing for a short while in the Suicide Squad which had far worse people and pretty much disappeared after that.
As for Power Girl starting out gentle, one of her first appearances had her calling a guy a chauvinist pig for giving her a Superman symbol as a gesture of friendliness.
[QUOTE]I agree that even by 2003 Bruce had done much worse, and that isn't a reason for Diana to forget that she stands for the dignity of people and is here to empower them, and that Bruce is a teammate of hers dedicated to justice in his egotistical way.[/QUOTE]
Why are you holding Diana to a different standard than Bruce if you admit he's done worse. And what does he need empowerment from her for? The guy's already one of the founders of the Justice League and one of the richest people on the planet. Empowerment is completely irrelevant in this situation where Diana is trying to save someone's life and Bruce is only making it unnecessarily difficult. If Bruce is an egotist, then maybe a little humiliation is needed to take him down a peg or two.
[QUOTE]
Haha, Diana is taunting him yes. What were you trying to argue? Nothing there is humiliating.[/QUOTE]
Oh yeah, because humiliating someone is so much worse than scaring them with the threat of death.
[QUOTE] But if there's anyone that lacks absolutely any dignity it's definitely Joker (and Doctor Psycho)[/QUOTE],
Everyone has dignity.
[QUOTE]so as I have stated before, it would be much more in character for Diana to brutally humiliate that sadistic serial killer and rapist as he is trying to blow other people up, rather than Batman while he's trying to aprehend a woman for comitting murder in self defense.[/QUOTE]
1) If it is out of character for Diana to brutally humiliate Bruce, it is equally out of character for her to brutally humiliate the Joker.
2) So now what she's doing to the Joker is humiliation? Please pick a lane here.
3) There is no such thing as "murder in self-defense". I won't even go into how Bruce has treated people with much more blood on their hands with kid gloves.
[QUOTE][B]And as I've said multiple times, my jiggest problem isn't that Diana broke all of her values in this sad moment. The thing I can't believe is that fans if this character would celebrate one of the saddest moments of her career.[/b][/QUOTE]
If you think this is one of the saddest moments in Diana's career, I have no idea what to say to you. Your issues with this scene just strike me as misplaced pearl clutching, especially with what else you seem willing to give a pass.
[QUOTE=Alpha;6134164]And the weirdest thing about Hiketeia to me is that the same writer that made Diana someone willing to brutally humiliate a fellow teammate also went on to state Diana's love for Bruce was what would allow her to become a Star Sapphire (which is a ship I definitely hate, Diana would never fall in love with Bruce)[/QUOTE]
Rucka doesn't attribute Diana becoming a Star Sapphire to her love for Bruce. He attributes it to her love for everyone.
[QUOTE=Alpha;6133089]Since when is putting your miuntain crushing foot on top of a person's head while they are lying down on concrete in the rain and theeatening him to not get up (which he obviously can't) considered "Tame Humiliation"?
And I'm not sure how familiar you are with Power Girl and Vixen but they both have famous anger issues. Vixen was that way since way back in the 70s, eventually joined the Suicide Squad, and in the late 90s and early 2000s had to deal with her losing control over herself when she was pissed off. Power Girl started out being very gentle, but over the decades came to be known as kind of harsh and intense. Mostly in control though.
I agree that even by 2003 Bruce had done much worse, and that isn't a reason for Diana to forget that she stands for the dignity of people and is here to empower them, and that Bruce is a teammate of hers dedicated to justice in his egotistical way.
Haha, Diana is taunting him yes. What were you trying to argue? Nothing there is humiliating. But if there's anyone that lacks absolutely any dignity it's definitely Joker (and Doctor Psycho), so as I have stated before, it would be much more in character for Diana to brutally humiliate that sadistic serial killer and rapist as he is trying to blow other people up, rather than Batman while he's trying to aprehend a woman for comitting murder in self defense.
[B]And as I've said multiple times, my jiggest problem isn't that Diana broke all of her values in this sad moment. The thing I can't believe is that fans if this character would celebrate one of the saddest moments of her career.[/b][/QUOTE]
I would not even waste time arguing with fans of Snyder. There is a subsegment of comic book fans, comic book creators, and execs who will always prefer Diana as a generic edgelordian decapitation-happy "badass chick with a big sword." That Wonder-Woman-in-Name-Only will always be popular with a very vocal minority of fans, and that's ok. I just simply ignore them. My Diana is compassionate, loving, full of heart AND powerful. No need for her to act out of character by becoming a Lady Wolverine or Miss Punisher.
[QUOTE=HestiasHearth;6134301]I would not even waste time arguing with fans of Snyder. There is a subsegment of comic book fans, comic book creators, and execs who will always prefer Diana as a generic edgelordian decapitation-happy "badass chick with a big sword." That Wonder-Woman-in-Name-Only will always be popular with a very vocal minority of fans, and that's ok. I just simply ignore them. My Diana is compassionate, loving, full of heart AND powerful. No need for her to act out of character by becoming a Lady Wolverine or Miss Punisher.[/QUOTE]
How the hell did Snyder come into this conversation? We were talking about the Hiketeia.