Wonder Woman - General Discussion

[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;6280914]While I agree that Diana doesn't need a fictional city to live in outside of Themyscira (for old times sake, it should be Washington D.C. or Boston), I wouldn't say Metropolis or Gotham have inadequacies as locations at all. Their distinct identities have just been developed over a way longer period, and it's way too late in the game to really establish that for Diana.[/QUOTE]
Yes, being too late in the game is why I'm not particularly invested in making a fake city for Diana. That the runs I like have just operate out of a real one (DC, Boston, NYC) are also points in their favors, so I'm only invested in one so much as gives a place for Diana's supporting cast. And even then, Rucka's Rebirth run was fairly globe-trotting so runs can work without one.

Maybe if I read more of Supes and Bats I'd agree with Gotham and Metropolis but idk Gotham in the comics in particular always comes off more as collection of generic urban hell hole cliches. I actually think the movies and Tv (B:TAS, Burton, and the Nolan films specifically) have done more work than the comics to make Gotham actually be interesting. And those all have their own very specific takes.

[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;6280915]Like I said, if she doesnt have a city to call home, she needs some type of home base. If she ever were to get a tv show, unless it was high budget....she'd be put in a home base, likely one city with travel here and there.

DC is known for their fake cities and its a huge part of a lot of their a-list heroes. It's a fact that they stand out whether someone likes it or not.

Diana not having a city is just apart of a very long list of the problems WW has faced.[/QUOTE]
If it is, it's a low-hanging one. Especially since all the great WW runs, imo,...didn't have her in a fake city.

[QUOTE=Gaius;6280925]If it is, it's a low-hanging one. Especially since all the great WW runs, imo,...didn't have her in a fake city.[/QUOTE]

I never said having a city makes way for great stories. You can write a great story with Superman in outerspace, doesn't take away what he's known for.

[QUOTE=Gaius;6280925]Yes, being too late in the game is why I'm not particularly invested in making a fake city for Diana. That the runs I like have just operate out of a real one (DC, Boston, NYC) are also points in their favors, so I'm only invested in one so much as gives a place for Diana's supporting cast. And even then, Rucka's Rebirth run was fairly globe-trotting so runs can work without one.

Maybe if I read more of Supes and Bats I'd agree with Gotham and Metropolis but idk Gotham in the comics in particular always comes off more as collection of generic urban hell hole cliches. I actually think the movies and Tv (B:TAS, Burton, and the Nolan films specifically) have done more work than the comics to make Gotham actually be interesting. And those all have their own very specific takes.[/QUOTE]

I think the urban hellhole cliches are what give it its personality. Thought yes, my formative years come from Burton and BTAS. Anton Furst's Gotham City is the golden standard for fictional superhero cities for me. Metropolis works because it can function as the equally fantastical angelic/heavenly counterpart to Gotham, and looks good when it channels a retro-futuristic vibe. Visually, stuff like Fritz Lang's Metropolis or the loosely adapted anime film of the same name provide an immersive setting that the Super books could channel.

Personally, when it comes to fictional vs. real cities, they can all become equally generic to me, and no city setting in cape comics aside from Metropolis and Gotham really holds my interest. Diana's runs in Boston and NYC could have easily taken place in Washington D.C. and you wouldn't even notice a difference, so specific real world cities can be interchangeable as well and can be generic.

[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;6280872]I want Diana to have a stable home-away-from-home, supporting cast, a well developed recurring rogues gallery and even a Wonder Girl (preferably pre-Crisis Donna) not just because other IPs have that, but because I like the examples of that stuff we have had in her book. Marston and Perez had it, and those were her highest selling eras.

She shouldn't have a secret ID just because other heroes have it; even if we have Diana Prince, I feel like her doing away with it is a natural end point for that arc whereas losing Clark Kent doesn't really work for Superman. She shouldn't have a kid just so Damian and Jon can have a playmate.

But a firm core cast that doesn't change every time there is a new writer and well developed villains can only help her, even if those are trends that are copy-pasted from other superheroes.

No need for more men though. For the regulars/semi-regulars, Steve and Ferdinand and maybe whoever Steve's boss happens to be at the moment (Darnell or Michaelis) are more than enough. The main draw of this property is that most of the major roles are filled by women. I'm a dude, and I still have zero interest in seeing more dudes brought in taking up space.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I'm going to echo you on not needing more men characters, despite being a dude. I read Wonder Woman for the female characters, period. That being said, I think Mel brings this up as a way of appealing to male readers, which...I'm conflicted about. This book has historically appealed to women and queer people (I use this as an umbrella term the way it is used by my generation, though I know those from older generations may not like this word), and that's beautiful and needed and important and shouldn't be diluted to appeal to...men. Which is what 95% of the comics industry caters to anyway. However, if the thinking is to use male characters as Trojan horses to get dudes to read a feminist and queer-positive comic book starring a woman...I gueeeeeeess I can understand? I still don't think it's needed, and I reject the notion that men cannot enjoy or relate to woman characters or enjoy feminist or queer-positive fiction. But I think Mel understands Wonder Woman's appeal and isn't trying to subvert that, just maximize its reach and appreciation to the most number of people possible. I still don't think it should be an editorial mandate, but the impulse isn't unfoundeded, especially considering the discussions of the importance of representation. This particular argument, however, doesn't quite stand up to scrutiny considering the overrepresentation of men in comics and the WW's book singular status as the longest running comic book starring a lady lead. Shoving more men in a book about the number one lady superhero from a matriarchal society does a disservice to the spirit of the book. But we can agree to disagree, we all love Wonder Woman here, even when we vehemently disagree with each other.

[QUOTE=Shimbo;6280938]Yeah, I'm going to echo you on not needing more men characters, despite being a dude. I read Wonder Woman for the female characters, period. That being said, I think Mel brings this up as a way of appealing to male readers, which...I'm conflicted about. This book has historically appealed to women and queer people (I use this as an umbrella term the way it is used by my generation, though I know those from older generations may not like this word), and that's beautiful and needed and important and shouldn't be diluted to appeal to...men. Which is what 95% of the comics industry caters to anyway. However, if the thinking is to use male characters as Trojan horses to get dudes to read a feminist and queer-positive comic book starring a woman...I gueeeeeeess I can understand? I still don't think it's needed, and I reject the notion that men cannot enjoy or relate to woman characters or enjoy feminist or queer-positive fiction. But I think Mel understands Wonder Woman's appeal and isn't trying to subvert that, just maximize its reach and appreciation to the most number of people possible. I still don't think it should be an editorial mandate, but the impulse isn't unfoundeded, especially considering the discussions of the importance of representation. This particular argument, however, doesn't quite stand up to scrutiny considering the overrepresentation of men in comics and the WW's book singular status as the longest running comic book starring a lady lead. Shoving more men in a book about the number one lady superhero from a matriarchal society does a disservice to the spirit of the book. But we can agree to disagree, we all love Wonder Woman here, even when we vehemently disagree with each other.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I think you nailed it in that maybe there is value in appealing to those who want to see male representation in the book. But how to appeal to that without subverting the themes of the franchise, and even if you pull it off, what are the odds a read pick it up over Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, or the many other books that are already male centric?

[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;6280935]I think the urban hellhole cliches are what give it its personality. Thought yes, my formative years come from Burton and BTAS. Anton Furst's Gotham City is the golden standard for fictional superhero cities for me. Metropolis works because it can function as the equally fantastical angelic/heavenly counterpart to Gotham, and looks good when it channels a retro-futuristic vibe. Visually, stuff like Fritz Lang's Metropolis or the loosely adapted anime film of the same name provide an immersive setting that the Super books could channel.

Personally, when it comes to fictional vs. real cities, they can all become equally generic to me, and no city setting in cape comics aside from Metropolis and Gotham really holds my interest. Diana's runs in Boston and NYC could have easily taken place in Washington D.C. and you wouldn't even notice a difference, so specific real world cities can be interchangeable as well and can be generic.[/QUOTE]

Oh, I agree. I only give a slight edge to real cities in WW's case as they're the ones associated with WW's good runs and an unhealthy dosage of regional pride (Bay stater here). :p But yes, all those runs could have taken place in either DC and there wouldn't be much of a difference since it's rare for comic writer (unless it's NYC) to delve into a real world city's feel and history.

[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;6280943]Yeah, I think you nailed it in that maybe there is value in appealing to those who want to see male representation in the book. But how to appeal to that without subverting the themes of the franchise, and even if you pull it off, what are the odds a read pick it up over Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, or the many other books that are already male centric?[/QUOTE]

Mythical Fantasy genre is very big at the moment and WW is RIPE for that kind of thing. I keep hearing all these rave reviews about the God of War game, there's GoT, LoTR...WW can appeal to those guys. The tone, feel, world of Historia but with Diana would likely get that fanbase.

[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;6280943]Yeah, I think you nailed it in that maybe there is value in appealing to those who want to see male representation in the book. But how to appeal to that without subverting the themes of the franchise, and even if you pull it off, what are the odds a read pick it up over Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, or the many other books that are already male centric?[/QUOTE]

Exactly. I'd argue appealing to men is better accomplished by focusing on doing what the WW book is about better. Offering a high quality and narratively and artistically consistent WW book that showcases and encompasses all the themes WW should be about and known for, but with the same care and attention paid to the Batman and Tec books. Our girl suffers from lack of anything more than surface knowledge of her powers, tools, and mythos by those who aren't already on the Wonder train and the perception that her book is often subpar or middle of the road. Focusing on delivering a quintessentially AND superlative WW book will bring more eyes to the book, including men's. Historia is a great example of doing both well, and we desperately need more prestige and evergreen WW books and runs, both in continuity and out.

I think you misunderstood my post. I said TWO men are enough. Two dudes are enough.

Golden Age Wonder Woman appealed openly to heterosexual and LGBTQA males and certainly girls and young women. Just because us straight fellas aren't as vocally present as the other demographics ..doesn't mean that we aren't here or that our dollar support of this comic doesn't count.

Siegfried needed to happen, a long time ago. Lynda's 70s TV show figured that out in its third season...about two seasons, too late.

Two regular, strong male supporting characters ..and ONE with superpowers [Bravo!] ..is enough. I like the three strong gals with two strong guys cast, ..and I hope edtr
Brittany Holzherr is strong enough to keep it in play, exactly as is.

[QUOTE=Mel Dyer;6280962]I think you misunderstood my post. I said TWO men are enough. Two dudes are enough.

Golden Age Wonder Woman appealed openly to heterosexual and LGBTQA males and certainly girls and young women. Just because us straight fellas aren't as vocally present as the other demographics ..doesn't mean that we aren't here or that our dollar support of this comic doesn't count.

Siegfried needed to happen, a long time ago. Lynda's 70s TV show figured that out in its third season...about two seasons, too late.

Two regular, strong male supporting characters ..and ONE with superpowers [Bravo!] ..is enough. I like the three strong gals with two strong guys cast, ..and I hope edtr
Brittany Holzherr is strong enough to keep it in play, exactly as is.[/QUOTE]

Some of the biggest WW fans I've met were straight dudes, which just shows you the universality of her themes. Now if only the book would be consistently good and promoted well, maybe more people would pick her up. We need more well regarded creators with built in fanbases on her books, and ones that will work with and contribute to her mythos, and not just disregard or retcon everything that came before.

[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;6280958]Mythical Fantasy genre is very big at the moment and WW is RIPE for that kind of thing. I keep hearing all these rave reviews about the God of War game, there's GoT, LoTR...WW can appeal to those guys. The tone, feel, world of Historia but with Diana would likely get that fanbase.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Shimbo;6280959]Exactly. I'd argue appealing to men is better accomplished by focusing on doing what the WW book is about better. Offering a high quality and narratively and artistically consistent WW book that showcases and encompasses all the themes WW should be about and known for, but with the same care and attention paid to the Batman and Tec books. Our girl suffers from lack of anything more than surface knowledge of her powers, tools, and mythos by those who aren't already on the Wonder train and the perception that her book is often subpar or middle of the road. Focusing on delivering a quintessentially AND superlative WW book will bring more eyes to the book, including men's. Historia is a great example of doing both well, and we desperately need more prestige and evergreen WW books and runs, both in continuity and out.[/QUOTE]

One of my roommates is a straight guy, and he greatly enjoyed Rucka's Rebirth run and the first issue of Historia when I let him borrow them, along with the first movie. He thought the second one was underwhelming and was disappointed in Cheetah after he'd been hyped up about her (which is what prompted me to lend him Rebirth, and then he said "oh she's actually cool, why didn't they just do that?"). He LOVES LoTR, so I think that plays a big part in it. A lot of others in our mutual friend group, guys and ladies, would be down for that as well.

On the other end of the spectrum, we have the worst type of fantasy nerds: the ones who jumped on Rings of Power for having women and POCs in it, ignoring any of the (many) valid criticisms you could give that show in favor of attacking the wrong targets. If Wonder Woman's themes are to hit as hard as they need to, featuring a powerful female lead and intersectional feminism and few men in secondary roles, it would piss off that audience. Who aren't worth appealing to anyway, and hopefully the quality would be there that it would draw in the intelligent men in the audience, as well as the built in (and still not fully tapped) female and queer audiences, to offset them.

I share Siege's distaste in the fetishization of women and POC. Etta possibly being a black woman, from the rural American Southwest is a breath of fresh air, for this reason.

I am really looking forward to the first story with the ladies - THESE ladies, specifically - in adventure on their own. Like Siggy, ..Diana, Etta with Barbara is also something that should have happened long ago. Bill Loebs tried, but without the editorial support he needed to make it stick.

And for the record, I have been religiously rallying for a Diana-Etta-Mala cast thing, for YEARS. I was blown away by Conrad and Cloonan's gutsy decision to add Bar Minerva to the cast, as slightly sinister Zarkov to Diana's Flash Gordon.

In the three of them - wonder-woman, everywoman and fallen woman - you have the entirety of the human social experience. So much better than what I had hoped for, with Mala.

[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;6280853]There are some things in comics that just prove very popular with the audience and thus adapting them to all heroes is...almost a must unless you are creative enough to change it up.

Batman is known for Gotham City. Superman is known for Metropolis. Spiderman is known for NYC, Buffy has Sunnydale. They are iconic aspects of the characters. Superman having a fortress, Bats a cave, X-Men a mansion, Spidey a basic apartment, it goes on and on on Superheroes having locations to call home, a homebase, it's something that fans remember about them.

If Diana doesn't have a city to call home, she certainly needs some type of base that fans can grasp onto and be familiar with. Unfortunately Themiscryia is located very far away from so unless someone can find a way to have her be notified of threats from there that isnt corny...a homebase that has issues in her backyard makes the most sense.[/QUOTE]

Writers have never had issues coming up with ways to have the Amazons be informed of what is happening beyond their borders. None of the fake cities they've used for Diana have been memorable and there are plenty of b listers and lower with fictional cities that are a memorable. Gotham is pretty much the only DC city with a unique identity and even that depends on the writer.

[QUOTE=Shimbo;6280959]Exactly. I'd argue appealing to men is better accomplished by focusing on doing what the WW book is about better. Offering a high quality and narratively and artistically consistent WW book that showcases and encompasses all the themes WW should be about and known for, but with the same care and attention paid to the Batman and Tec books. Our girl suffers from lack of anything more than surface knowledge of her powers, tools, and mythos by those who aren't already on the Wonder train and the perception that her book is often subpar or middle of the road. Focusing on delivering a quintessentially AND superlative WW book will bring more eyes to the book, including men's. Historia is a great example of doing both well, and we desperately need more prestige and evergreen WW books and runs, both in continuity and out.[/QUOTE]

Yep, you nailed it. The most common complaint you hear isn't about her lore or supporting cast, it's "why doesn't she have any definitive stories like All-Star Superman or TDKR?" She does have a handful of solid runs and a few truly great ones, but (a) they're bright spots in a sea of mediocrity and (b) you [I]could[/I] point someone to Perez or Rucka, but you don't see Batman fans telling total newcomers to start with a Denny O'Neil or Grant Morrison omnibus. Historia is really the first WW book I think will be added to the universally-accepted Great Comics canon, but it isn't about Diana.

You can really look at either of her Black Label titles to see what quality does (I know Dead Earth is polarizing among fans, but it was a critically acclaimed book by a really popular writer/artist). Both of them are commercial successes that attracted lots of people who wouldn't normally read WW books (including straight men), and neither of them have any major male supporting cast members - hell, in Historia all of the men are actively villainous.

It's clearly tough to find a solid, consistent creative team on the WW monthly, but I at least hope we get more excellent non-canon WW stories. It's a shame GMo bungled Earth One so bad but we live and learn.

[QUOTE=Agent Z;6281034]Writers have never had issues coming up with ways to have the Amazons be informed of what is happening beyond their borders. None of the fake cities they've used for Diana have been memorable and there are plenty of b listers and lower with fictional cities that are a memorable. Gotham is pretty much the only DC city with a unique identity and even that depends on the writer.[/QUOTE]

None of her cities are memorable because they dissappear as soon as a new team comes in. Id say Gateway is her biggest one. But you cant grow something if you don't use it.

Gateway City is only "biggest one" in that it's the only fake city WW operated out of for an extended amount of time.

It has no more claim to being any more memorable than DC, Boston, or NYC, those three of which were at least in good WW runs.

[QUOTE=Gaius;6281258]Gateway City is only "biggest one" in that it's the only fake city WW operated out of for an extended amount of time.

It has no more claim to being any more memorable than DC, Boston, or NYC, those three of which were at least in good WW runs.[/QUOTE]

It's certainly her most memorable. Like you said she operated out of it the longest. Like i said you cant grow something if you don't use it.

It doesn't matter how good a run is. No one has said it makes stories better

[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;6281266]It's certainly her most memorable. Like you said she operated out of it the longest. Like i said you cant grow something if you don't use it.[/QUOTE]

For fake cities. DC is the champ if we want to go by actual amount of time given Pre-Crisis, Simone, and the current run, and even then Boston and London probably also beat out Gateway.

[QUOTE=Gaius;6281271]For fake cities. DC is the champ if we want to go by actual amount of time given Pre-Crisis, Simone, and the current run, and even then Boston and London probably also beat out Gateway.[/QUOTE]

Yes. Correct.

[QUOTE=Gaius;6281258]Gateway City is only "biggest one" in that it's the only fake city WW operated out of for an extended amount of time.

[/QUOTE]

And it isn't even created for her. It was originally the Spectre's home city.

[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;6281266]It's certainly her most memorable. Like you said she operated out of it the longest. Like i said you cant grow something if you don't use it.

It doesn't matter how good a run is. No one has said it makes stories better[/QUOTE]

How exactly was it memorable? It was used in one run and hardly gets spoken of at all. Boston and Washington are discussed far more, if only because they were used in more popular runs. Gateway isn't even the third most memorable city in Wonder Woman. At this rate, I think London would be more memorable based on the movie.

[QUOTE=Agent Z;6281296]How exactly was it memorable? It was used in one run and hardly gets spoken of at all. Boston and Washington are discussed far more, if only because they were used in more popular runs. Gateway isn't even the third most memorable city in Wonder Woman. At this rate, I think London would be more memorable based on the movie.[/QUOTE]

The fact that we remember it. Especially being a fake city. It's also discussed plenty when talking about where to settle WW doen.

But it's not.

It's only brought up because it's the only option for folks obsessed with giving WW a fake city. It's Bludhaven with even less charm, and that's a city with no charm to begin with.

[QUOTE=Agent Z;6281296]How exactly was it memorable? It was used in one run and hardly gets spoken of at all. Boston and Washington are discussed far more, if only because they were used in more popular runs. Gateway isn't even the third most memorable city in Wonder Woman. At this rate, I think London would be more memorable based on the movie.[/QUOTE]

I've always liked D.C. for Wonder Woman. It's where the character started with Marston, where the tv show was set, where 1984 was set, Wonder Woman Bloodlines was set, and where her current run has been sent for most of its run. The Greek architecture, the politics, Embassy Island, Argus makes sense in DC, it feels like the perfect city for a hero that is just as impactful in the real world as she is in her fictional world.

I think London works, too, because of the Justice League movies and Azzarello.

Lastly, I like Paris because of the first Wonder Woman movie, and I like the idea of Wondy working at the Louvre.

At this point, I[I] think[/I] too much of her major outside media connects Wonder Woman to D.C. for a fictional city to stick. Let's see where Patty sets Wonder Woman III

Presently, GEORGETOWN, where Greg Rucka set Etta's house, ..offers a unique storytelling opportunity in it being a district, inside Washington, DC.

Suppose stories showed Janus or Q Fables turn Washington into a prehistoric wasteland full of dragons in a previous run. Writer X could establish that Etta, Steve and the rest are in a separate fictional, neighboring city...Georgetown, often confused with the district in DC. Furthermore, X could establish that they'd always been there ..and just go on with whatever story, they wished to tell.

One of my problems with setting WW stories in DC or another real-world city is that the whole DCU can use it, however they please - President Luthor, alien invasions, etc. I don't think WW writers can obliterate Metropolis or Gotham, with the same abandon. You really have to throw reality out the window to manage it.

Comparatively, the fictional iconic city does give writers a measure of storytelling freedom, th hey wouldn't have, without it.

Imagine another scenario...after all the DCU crossover event dust settles, Writer Z decides to treat Georgetown as a district in Washington again, to fit whatever story they're telling. Easypeezy! I read that DC Comics editors used to treat stories in New York City and Metropolis, in a similar fashion - as with the settings for stories about Guardian and Newsboy Legion or Black Lightning. Having Gotham and Metropolis so closely associated with NYC gave them a lot of wiggle room to keep their respective stories, straight.

The super-real Washington of H. G. Peter really was something to see, in the 40s. An artist would have to be really imaginative to pull something off like that, today.

[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fi2FNB5X0AAS6b5?format=jpg&name=medium[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Gaius;6281305]But it's not.

It's only brought up because it's the only option for folks obsessed with giving WW a fake city. It's Bludhaven with even less charm, and that's a city with no charm to begin with.[/QUOTE]

Bludhaven has made its mark. And who cares if its brought up by those that want to give Diana a fake city. She lives in a UNIVERSE that has fake cities. Majority of DCs best known characters hail from FAKE cities. She isn't above a fake city.

She's from a fake island or should we put that down as well because its not real lol

[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;6281317]Bludhaven has made its mark. And who cares if its brought up by those that want to give Diana a fake city. She lives in a UNIVERSE that has fake cities. Majority of DCs best known characters hail from FAKE cities. She isn't above a fake city.

She's from a fake island or should we put that down as well because its not real lol[/QUOTE]

Themyscira is one of the main things in DC, and superhero fiction in general, that actually makes Diana standout from other heroes, I'm sure there's similar things in DC to it but they are distant second place. Like what Oa, Asgard, and Wakanda are for their respective characters.

Gateway is just another comicbook city that didn't even originate with Diana, it was the Spectre's. I'm not even particularly anti-Gateway, I just don't view it (or fake cities in general) as inherently superior to when real ones are used especially when in WW's case she's done fine (excelled even) with real ones.

It's never been said that fakes are superior just that heroes having a home city is very popular and part of building up their universes. It's something Diana has lacked. Same with a homebade, supporting cast, all that jazz

[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;6281454]It's never been said that fakes are superior just that heroes having a home city is very popular and part of building up their universes. It's something Diana has lacked. Same with a homebade, supporting cast, all that jazz[/QUOTE]

You keep saying that it's popular, yet the fact Gateway failed to make any meaningful splash beyond Byrne's run proves this is very much not always the case.

[QUOTE=Agent Z;6281460]You keep saying that it's popular, yet the fact Gateway failed to make any meaningful splash beyond Byrne's run proves this is very much not always the case.[/QUOTE]

I keep saying? I dont keep saying its popular. I say its memorable. I talk about it when someone quotes me and responds.

I DO SAY that heroes having cities is popular. That's different than what ive said about Gateway.

If we want to talk about making a splash....barely anything in WW makes a splash because they throw out everything and everyone. Cassie, Nemesis, the Gorillas, list goes on about who and what doesn't make it beyond certain runs.

As I said, I'm not totally sold on her having a city, but I so badly wish we'd gotten Legend of WW book 2. De Liz's vision for Gateway City seemed soooo cool and could've actually given it personality and purpose. It's a literal giant (possibly magic?) gateway!

[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Czw3aztXcAAGuu3?format=jpg&name=small[/img]

Bringing a kind of magical realist/urban fantasy sensibility to it would do a lot to set it apart. Like, the kind of vibe that would welcome the prospect of a minotaur chef and an embassy with a portal to Themyscira.

[QUOTE=bardkeep;6281543]As I said, I'm not totally sold on her having a city, but I so badly wish we'd gotten Legend of WW book 2. De Liz's vision for Gateway City seemed soooo cool and could've actually given it personality and purpose. It's a literal giant (possibly magic?) gateway!

[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Czw3aztXcAAGuu3?format=jpg&name=small[/img]

Bringing a kind of magical realist/urban fantasy sensibility to it would do a lot to set it apart. Like, the kind of vibe that would welcome the prospect of a minotaur chef and an embassy with a portal to Themyscira.[/QUOTE]

Gateway as an urban magic city would have given it a chance of sticking around. That at least makes it stand out as a location the same way Gotham being a mix of noir/cyberpunk/horror helps define it.

[QUOTE=bardkeep;6281543]As I said, I'm not totally sold on her having a city, but I so badly wish we'd gotten Legend of WW book 2. De Liz's vision for Gateway City seemed soooo cool and could've actually given it personality and purpose. It's a literal giant (possibly magic?) gateway!

[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Czw3aztXcAAGuu3?format=jpg&name=small[/img]

Bringing a kind of magical realist/urban fantasy sensibility to it would do a lot to set it apart. Like, the kind of vibe that would welcome the prospect of a minotaur chef and an embassy with a portal to Themyscira.[/QUOTE]

That's an interesting concept! Scott, Mizuno and I have been talking about a 'gateway' Gateway City, for almost half a decade. Good sketch, too.

Don't you think the Amazon Embassy would have fit much better, off the coastline of GATEWAY CITY?

I was like...Steve Orlando--Boston?! How could you not drop that beside Gateway? It's like the energy for Boston embassy is off, somehow. It's not right...organic? I really like the idea of Diana settling out West anyway, and preferably AWAY from anything urban, ..but, big cities are the trend in the DCU and have been, since the Golden Age.

Hate the idea of [I][B]Urban Avenger Wonder Woman.[/B][/I] That just doesn't work for me.

And frankly, a big, weird and iconic ARGUS Central, with Old World styling...? I can totally see both the Amazon Embassy and my ARGUS thing fitting in Gateway.

So basically Sunnydale?

I guess they could say there's a second [I]Doom's Doorway[/I] wherever this city is to justify Diana making that her protectorate and give it a degree or weirdness/mysticism.

[QUOTE=Mel Dyer;6281723]That's an interesting concept! Scott, Mizuno and I have been talking about a 'gateway' Gateway City, for almost half a decade. Good sketch, too.

Don't you think the Amazon Embassy would have fit much better, off the coastline of GATEWAY CITY?

I was like...Steve Orlando--Boston?! How could you not drop that beside Gateway? It's like the energy for Boston embassy is off, somehow. It's not right...organic? I really like the idea of Diana settling out West anyway, and preferably AWAY from anything urban, ..but, big cities are the trend in the DCU and have been, since the Golden Age.

Hate the idea of [I][B]Urban Avenger Wonder Woman.[/B][/I] That just doesn't work for me.

And frankly, a big, weird and iconic ARGUS Central, with Old World styling...? I can totally see both the Amazon Embassy and my ARGUS thing fitting in Gateway.[/QUOTE]

But don't Argus and Amazon Embassy fit perfectly well in the DMV, right now. I don't see why we need a fictional city to incorporate things that are already incorporated in the current Wonderverse. As for the literal Gateway, that does look cool, but it a world of Boom Tubes, mass teleportation, portals, invisible islands, etc., I don't think that would be the gamechanger for Diana that you believe.

[QUOTE=bardkeep;6269437]Dawn of DC line looking depressing as hell. 20 new books, 1 woman creative (Tamaki writing a Hal Jordan title), and 0 woman-led titles.

DC has an amazing roster of female characters and no faith in any of them, and it just becomes a self-perpetuating cycle. They assume woman-led books won't sell so they assign them to D-list creative teams, do 0 promo, let the bad to middling reviews roll in, and then assume the lack of interest is because of the character's gender. Sigh.

My only hope is that we'll get either a miniseries or another WW Black Label book because that's the only way we're getting ANY exciting new woman-led anything.[/QUOTE]

I saw those titles and I couldn’t find a single one of any interest to me. I hope they produce some better ones or I’ll be reading even less DC titles I am now.

[img]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/BW4Tim31J2-K1NmZ44LwpzfAlpX2Kd1BcW-Tgha2GVxeeo8WYf9xPhnTpvudF8zu4rj23VxGz1cD=s1600?rhlupa=MTA0LjI1NC45NS4xNDg=&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzEwNy4wLjAuMCBTYWZhcmkvNTM3LjM2[/img]
[img]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/ew1ZXFDoVyWrMqlxxyxDbV15mdFLT14ZDNOxhWl6WQLg5hy-fSSOtLNZUWaYnh9PH8Dc8pZzapfz=s1600?rhlupa=MTA0LjI1NC45NS4xNDg=&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzEwNy4wLjAuMCBTYWZhcmkvNTM3LjM2[/img]
[img]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/ng2s9A1M4bY7nACEpdTxiXWoS6PmMYVZiqi5fRXEwCUQPNqcq7MYy4_I3u0WkRuvDCDmpHyMdRW3=s1600?rhlupa=MTA0LjI1NC45NS4xNDg=&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzEwNy4wLjAuMCBTYWZhcmkvNTM3LjM2[/img]

[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;6284839][img]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/BW4Tim31J2-K1NmZ44LwpzfAlpX2Kd1BcW-Tgha2GVxeeo8WYf9xPhnTpvudF8zu4rj23VxGz1cD=s1600?rhlupa=MTA0LjI1NC45NS4xNDg=&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzEwNy4wLjAuMCBTYWZhcmkvNTM3LjM2[/img]
[img]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/ew1ZXFDoVyWrMqlxxyxDbV15mdFLT14ZDNOxhWl6WQLg5hy-fSSOtLNZUWaYnh9PH8Dc8pZzapfz=s1600?rhlupa=MTA0LjI1NC45NS4xNDg=&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzEwNy4wLjAuMCBTYWZhcmkvNTM3LjM2[/img]
[img]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/ng2s9A1M4bY7nACEpdTxiXWoS6PmMYVZiqi5fRXEwCUQPNqcq7MYy4_I3u0WkRuvDCDmpHyMdRW3=s1600?rhlupa=MTA0LjI1NC45NS4xNDg=&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzEwNy4wLjAuMCBTYWZhcmkvNTM3LjM2[/img][/QUOTE]

Yeah, I'd say that is some Amazon Super-speed, coordination and agility!

Diana had the most random guest appearance in 90s Aquaman..
[img]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/fJoeNPcfUzOHaBJB9j7T-RSU-MTooQbITMnb10r5u_WfjpieDRZ1DNB3UYt-zZ5cKeGNPm5K5xgC_x-1FsrahSPFuC6ndEjFLTQ-Gi3_o1eJ4V6XWnd9JiTQoCS7t6AcPYcqn9Gs4Q=s1600?rhlupa=MTg0Ljc1LjIxMC41Mg&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzEwNy4wLjAuMCBTYWZhcmkvNTM3LjM2[/img]
[img]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/PP6fd9-qw-7kCoinMVBiMltb_FWqKFKEHUhlAVrOlSAcFJpZJ7h6jXUt-TPw_xSRJ8AsqBMPRsTZgebIY8LTmxw-og9DmiRmLBj-IxhkZETHUXhUJXcNHHhBzwAVWHOJZRWpzD4npg=s1600?rhlupa=MTg0Ljc1LjIxMC41Mg&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzEwNy4wLjAuMCBTYWZhcmkvNTM3LjM2[/img]
[img]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/xkofNS9hDSX0YTDoRVGlEgFkQ5uCMEw17_gnS5jV3A8uJEIb6oG3gUGqd5fALrYNzTO5oDwlR945o5GFSJg1Nk02ISwKC8WpHR7jePeRc_XBS9Bfh8yLbpg9lKkB515bWBIcDM3hiA=s1600?rhlupa=MTg0Ljc1LjIxMC41Mg&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzEwNy4wLjAuMCBTYWZhcmkvNTM3LjM2[/img]

Random Diana in a bikini is random :p.