Wonder Woman - General Discussion

Ya know I heard Orion appeared in the Azzarello run, and apparently it was a pretty portrayal of the Dog of War.

Got curious how bad it is, found, annnnnd....... yeah I hate this. For both characters, like its not a good look for Orion but its definitely not a good look for Diana

[url]https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/comments/nxcaor/comic_excerpt_wonder_woman_totally_had_a_ball/[/url]

[img]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1066847457155240018/1105084025988722799/1d6cl1rn0m471.png[/img]

[img]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1066847457155240018/1105084026378797158/7qvlwf9o0m471.png[/img]

[QUOTE=Mantis-Ray;6463358]Ya know I heard Orion appeared in the Azzarello run, and apparently it was a pretty portrayal of the Dog of War.

Got curious how bad it is, found, annnnnd....... yeah I hate this. For both characters, like its not a good look for Orion but its definitely not a good look for Diana

[url]https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/comments/nxcaor/comic_excerpt_wonder_woman_totally_had_a_ball/[/url]

[img]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1066847457155240018/1105084025988722799/1d6cl1rn0m471.png[/img]

[img]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1066847457155240018/1105084026378797158/7qvlwf9o0m471.png[/img][/QUOTE]

It's a bad look for Orion but I don't see how it makes Diana look bad. I'd have left out the scene and not written Orion that way at all.

[QUOTE=Agent Z;6463400]It's a bad look for Orion but I don't see how it makes Diana look bad. I'd have left out the scene and not written Orion that way at all.[/QUOTE]

Cuz isn't she assaulting him by doing that?

[QUOTE=Agent Z;6463400]It's a bad look for Orion but I don't see how it makes Diana look bad. I'd have left out the scene and not written Orion that way at all.[/QUOTE]

It falls into that trope of women weaponizing their sexuality, justifying certain misogynist and sexist stereotypes--in the same vein of Azzarello's Amazons being [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_deception"]rapists by deception[/URL]: having sex with unwitting sailors and then killing them afterwards (not to mention trading male children to Hephaestus in exchange for weapons).

Ick.

[QUOTE=Agent Z;6463400]It's a bad look for Orion but I don't see how it makes Diana look bad. I'd have left out the scene and not written Orion that way at all.[/QUOTE]
Ask yourself this.... where is Diana's left hand?

[QUOTE=HotBoy;6464067]It falls into that trope of women weaponizing their sexuality, justifying certain misogynist and sexist stereotypes--in the same vein of Azzarello's Amazons being [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_deception"]rapists by deception[/URL]: having sex with unwitting sailors and then killing them afterwards (not to mention trading male children to Hephaestus in exchange for weapons).

Ick.[/QUOTE]

Azzarello's style is just throwing all the stereotypes in a story without much else so yeah.

Still can't get over how Ares was basically his personal self insert character, lol.

[QUOTE=masterwitcher88;6464182]Azzarello's style is just throwing all the stereotypes in a story without much else so yeah.

Still can't get over how Ares was basically his personal self insert character, lol.[/QUOTE]

It was the most meta mansplaining I've ever seen.

[QUOTE=HotBoy;6464189]It was the most meta mansplaining I've ever seen.[/QUOTE]

Ohoho shit, thats got me curious.

What panel is that?

[QUOTE=Mantis-Ray;6464211]Ohoho shit, thats got me curious.

What panel is that?[/QUOTE]

It wasn't just one panel. It was Azzarello as Ares, acting as Diana's mentor throughout the whole series, teaching her how to fight, how to be heroic, and grooming her to be the next god of war.

[QUOTE=I'm a Fish;6463949]Cuz isn't she assaulting him by doing that?[/QUOTE]

After having already assaulted her prior to this, not to mention having sexually harassed her since his first appearance in the series. As I said, I would have simply avoided writing him as such a slime ball but I don't blame Diana for her reaction given what she'd had to put up with at that point. Hell, he still harasses and degrades her after this.

[QUOTE=HotBoy;6464067]It falls into that trope of women weaponizing their sexuality, justifying certain misogynist and sexist stereotypes--in the same vein of Azzarello's Amazons being [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_deception"]rapists by deception[/URL]: having sex with unwitting sailors and then killing them afterwards (not to mention trading male children to Hephaestus in exchange for weapons).

Ick.[/QUOTE]

I'm on record as hating that depiction of the Amazons here but I don't think what Diana does in those pages is remotely comparable. Diana is trying to get a guy who had been harassing her since his first appearance to stop. The Amazons aren't do what they do for any reason that is as justifiable (because there is no way to justify it).

[QUOTE=Agent Z;6464291]After having already assaulted her prior to this, not to mention having sexually harassed her since his first appearance in the series. As I said, I would have simply avoided writing him as such a slime ball but I don't blame Diana for her reaction given what she'd had to put up with at that point. Hell, he still harasses and degrades her after this.



I'm on record as hating that depiction of the Amazons here but I don't think what Diana does in those pages is remotely comparable. Diana is trying to get a guy who had been harassing her since his first appearance to stop. The Amazons aren't do what they do for any reason that is as justifiable (because there is no way to justify it).[/QUOTE]

And she had to kiss him to do that? There was no other way to get close to him or get her point across?

Sure there was. But the writer wanted to do it in that particular way. For reasons we can only guess at, of course. But it seems obvious to me, given the context and evidence of wrongdoing in the rest of the series, if it doesn’t seem obvious to anyone else.

Yikes. Azzarello's Wonder Woman run was certainly...a choice. ��

[QUOTE=Agent Z;6464291]After having already assaulted her prior to this, not to mention having sexually harassed her since his first appearance in the series. As I said, I would have simply avoided writing him as such a slime ball but I don't blame Diana for her reaction given what she'd had to put up with at that point. Hell, he still harasses and degrades her after this.



I'm on record as hating that depiction of the Amazons here but I don't think what Diana does in those pages is remotely comparable. Diana is trying to get a guy who had been harassing her since his first appearance to stop. The Amazons aren't do what they do for any reason that is as justifiable (because there is no way to justify it).[/QUOTE]

So you think this is in character? You think Diana is someone that would weaponize her sexuality?

Diana, the person that grew up on an idylic island and probably never had to experience predator behavior before coming to our world. Once she did come to our world she according to Canon barely dated (something I don't entirely agree with, but has always been Canon) and 90% of the people that could he predators towards her posed no actual threat. They were like weak children behaving inappropriately towards an adult

How would she even know to weaponize her sexuality? She grew up believing in free love. She wasn't even taught how to seduce.

Seriously, how is this in character?

[QUOTE=HestiasHearth;6464344]Yikes. Azzarello's Wonder Woman run was certainly...a choice. ��[/QUOTE]

A [I]conscious[/I] choice. He and Dan DiDio knew [I]exactly[/I] what they were doing.

[IMG]https://i.gifer.com/7f2m.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=HotBoy;6464322]And she had to kiss him to do that? There was no other way to get close to him or get her point across?
[/QUOTE]
I'm sure there were but I don't see Diana's behavior as particularly troubling given what she's had to put up with from Orion.

For context, this happened two issues before the above scene happened.

[IMG]https://media.comicbook.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/wonder-woman-gets-slapped.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Alpha;6464363]So you think this is in character? You think Diana is someone that would weaponize her sexuality?

Diana, the person that grew up on an idylic island and probably never had to experience predator behavior before coming to our world. Once she did come to our world she according to Canon barely dated (something I don't entirely agree with, but has always been Canon) and 90% of the people that could he predators towards her posed no actual threat. They were like weak children behaving inappropriately towards an adult

How would she even know to weaponize her sexuality? She grew up believing in free love. She wasn't even taught how to seduce.

Seriously, how is this in character?[/QUOTE]

The New 52 Diana didn't grow up in an idyllic society. The Amazons in that run don't seem to even like [I]each other[/I] that much, let alone anyone who is an outsider. As for where she learned to weaponize her sexuality, that's not a hard question to answer given what we know of that iteration of the Amazons.

I don't know if the regular version of Wonder Woman would have done this but then again, she never would have been harassed by an in-character Orion either. And being powerful doesn't mean you can't be harassed or preyed upon. In fact, that happened to Diana at times in the pre-New 52 days.

If the genders were flipped, I can't see anyone being okay with a male character forcing a kiss on a woman and grabbing her crotch threateningly in retaliation for her slapping his ass.

I definitely agree that Diana should be a above threatening a dudes' manhood to make a point.

So what should she have done then?

[QUOTE=Agent Z;6464950]So what should she have done then?[/QUOTE]

Any of the thousands of options that didn't involve kissing him and/or grabbing his genitals?

[QUOTE=Agent Z;6464950]So what should she have done then?[/QUOTE]

Kicked him out of the group.

[QUOTE=Nyssane;6464889]If the genders were flipped, I can't see anyone being okay with a male character forcing a kiss on a woman and grabbing her crotch threateningly in retaliation for her slapping his ass.[/QUOTE]

Plus it continues with Orion commenting that "she's cute when she's mad" so she hits him and that just makes a fight almost break out.

Yeah, Orion is gross in this run but it feels like the writer just has Diana check all the tick marks for how exactly [I][B]not[/B][/I] to handle the situation.

[QUOTE=Mantis-Ray;6464211]Ohoho shit, thats got me curious.

What panel is that?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=HotBoy;6464217]It wasn't just one panel. It was Azzarello as Ares, acting as Diana's mentor throughout the whole series, teaching her how to fight, how to be heroic, and grooming her to be the next god of war.[/QUOTE]

He wrote a young Diana story, think it was Nu52 issue 0 or something like that. If you google an image of Azz and 'young' Ares from Nu52, it's literally copy paste. That specific issue was Ares training Diana and in weeks becoming better than any amazon.

HotBoy is also correct that this was a whole run problem, but that young Diana one is the one that irks me the most.

controversial opinion, of all the justifiable crap I give to Azzerello, Diana being an angry sword happy barbarian woman really wasn't one of the things he did, that was mostly outside her book i.e. JL and Superman & WW.

[QUOTE=Agent Z;6464950]So what should she have done then?[/QUOTE]

That's a good question to be honest.

I agree Diana kissing him and threatening castration is lame. Arguably out of character, and just strikes me as a very cliched "this is what a Strong Independent Woman™ would do" approach.
The kind of thing you'll see people post on Twitter or Reddit out of context alongside her cutting someone's head off or the "I deal with them" panel.

But what would be more appropriate for her to do when confronted with a sexist douche who will not listen to reason? As diplomatic as she is, Diana is not the turn the other cheek type. She does have a line where, if crossed, she will act.
And Orion--or, rather, this out of character interpretation of him--is clearly not accepting respectful requests and seems the type who will only respond to physical force.

Personally, assuming she really needs him and can't just tell him to get the hell out, I can see Diana giving him a straight ultimatum with the implicit threat of violence, just not this kiss or castration nonsense.
A simple: "Enough. Or else."

If I put my writer hat on, I'd have "Orion" call her bluff, just for her to quickly take him down and subdue him in a hold of some sort. Once he sees she's more than capable of putting him down, he finally respects her.
But I would also have Diana not accept that as a compliment and tell Orion this was demeaning for them both. And maybe he could learn a lesson about true strength, violence, and respecting others?

[QUOTE=Agent Z;6464950]So what should she have done then?[/QUOTE]

Is there no middle ground between rolling her eyes saying "boys will be boys" and grabbing his junk threatening to castrate him?

I can't remember what it's from, but one story has a gag where some dude is being gross to Diana at a club and it looks like she grabs his crotch with a big CRUNCH sound effect...only for the next panel to reveal that she'd reached into his pocket and crushed his phone. There you have it, perfect example of a reaction that's not absolutely psychotic but still very much says "fuck around and find out."

[QUOTE=bardkeep;6465607]Is there no middle ground between rolling her eyes saying "boys will be boys" and grabbing his junk threatening to castrate him?

I can't remember what it's from, but one story has a gag where some dude is being gross to Diana at a club and it looks like she grabs his crotch with a big CRUNCH sound effect...only for the next panel to reveal that she'd reached into his pocket and crushed his phone. There you have it, perfect example of a reaction that's not absolutely psychotic but still very much says "fuck around and find out."[/QUOTE]

I'm not saying what she did was the best or only option (though it did seem to work for while at least) but there are also plenty of other worse paths she could have taken, including actually castrating him as opposed to merely threatening to do it.

I have a lot of difficulty holding a victim of sexual harassment's response to their harasser against them, barring something particularly extreme. Some of the comments on this moment border on victim blaming, like some who said She-Hulk "went too far" by growling at a bunch of guys who were cat calling and following her into a parking lot when she made it clear she wasn't interested.

[QUOTE=Nyssane;6464889]If the genders were flipped, I can't see anyone being okay with a male character forcing a kiss on a woman and grabbing her crotch threateningly in retaliation for her slapping his ass.[/QUOTE]

It's not like the ass slap was an isolated incident.

[QUOTE=Agent Z;6465637]I'm not saying what she did was the best or only option (though it did seem to work for while at least) but there are also plenty of other worse paths she could have taken, including actually castrating him as opposed to merely threatening to do it.

I have a lot of difficulty holding a victim of sexual harassment's response to their harasser against them, barring something particularly extreme. Some of the comments on this moment border on victim blaming, like some who said She-Hulk "went too far" by growling at a bunch of guys who were cat calling and following her into a parking lot when she made it clear she wasn't interested.[/QUOTE]

From other complaints I've seen Diana grabbing his junk also counts as sexual harassment.

Its one thing to give him some payback, but crushing his testicles basically means she's paying back sexual harassment by sexually harassing him too.

Wasn't Azarello planning on making Diana and Orion a couple in his run? Her grabbing his testicles might seem like putting a harasser in his place, but it might just be Azz's idea of "romance" :p

[QUOTE=Psy-lock;6465647]Wasn't Azarello planning on making Diana and Orion a couple in his run? Her grabbing his testicles might seem like putting a harasser in his place, but it might just be Azz's idea of "romance" :p[/QUOTE]

Yes, it was his plan but he got nixed because DC obviously had other plans. Agreed on your hypothesis.

I feel like the point would have gotten across just as well if Diana just punched him (which she ended up just doing anyway)

[QUOTE=Psy-lock;6465647]Wasn't Azarello planning on making Diana and Orion a couple in his run? Her grabbing his testicles might seem like putting a harasser in his place, but it might just be Azz's idea of "romance" :p[/QUOTE]

Threatening to castrate someone [I]does[/I] sound like Amazon foreplay in the Azarello run.

Regardless it was clearly put in for the sake of drama, and I've never liked when characters are written out of character soley for dramatic scenes.

[QUOTE=Mantis-Ray;6465646]From other complaints I've seen Diana grabbing his junk also counts as sexual harassment.

Its one thing to give him some payback, but crushing his testicles basically means she's paying back sexual harassment by sexually harassing him too.[/QUOTE]
Enh... I'd call it assault not harassment. It'd maybe be harassment if she didn't grab his junk.

[QUOTE=marhawkman;6466149]Enh... I'd call it assault not harassment. It'd maybe be harassment if she didn't grab his junk.[/QUOTE]

Yeah that counts more as assault. She is quite literally assaulting him by crushing his genitals.

Also this week is the start of the next part of Sean Murtphy's White Knight saga, Generation Joker featuring Joker's 2 kids

And last book confirmed Diana exists in the universe as a........ FBI Agent

[img]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1066847457155240018/1106377290625073162/Batman-White-Knight-Presents-Generation-Joker-1-1-1.png[/img]

well thats one way to try and translate her role in army intelligence I suppose

[IMG]https://mlpnk72yciwc.i.optimole.com/cqhiHLc.IIZS~2ef73/w:600/h:923/q:75/https://bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Dawn-of-DC-Primer-1-2.jpg[/IMG]

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[url]https://bleedingcool.com/comics/dawn-of-dc-primer-2023-preview-darkest-before-the-dawn-of-dc/[/url]

Was there a creepy smile competition between the Super family and Titans we weren’t told about?

[QUOTE=HotBoy;6470367][IMG]https://mlpnk72yciwc.i.optimole.com/cqhiHLc.IIZS~2ef73/w:600/h:923/q:75/https://bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Dawn-of-DC-Primer-1-2.jpg[/IMG]



[url]https://bleedingcool.com/comics/dawn-of-dc-primer-2023-preview-darkest-before-the-dawn-of-dc/[/url][/QUOTE]

It's nice to see Donna with the Wonderfamily and not the Titans, even if it's just for the photo.

While the art leaves plenty to be desired...kudos to them for remembering who the Wonder family was.

[QUOTE=HotBoy;6470367][IMG]https://mlpnk72yciwc.i.optimole.com/cqhiHLc.IIZS~2ef73/w:600/h:923/q:75/https://bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Dawn-of-DC-Primer-1-2.jpg[/IMG]



[url]https://bleedingcool.com/comics/dawn-of-dc-primer-2023-preview-darkest-before-the-dawn-of-dc/[/url][/QUOTE]


Forgive me, but is the blonde girl in the pic Trinity?

[QUOTE=Donpayne;6470485]Forgive me, but is the blonde girl in the pic Trinity?[/QUOTE]

That's Cassie