Wonder Woman - General Discussion

[QUOTE=Koriand'r;6789115]Saw where the definition of modestly dressed came from and disagree with it, I wouldn't call a shirtless man modest. If his chest is out his musculature (or lack thereof) is on display for all to see.

It amazes me how people became Wonder Woman fans despite a disdain for her classic swimsuit costume. She's meant to be provocative, she's meant to challenge old ideas and ways of thinking.[/QUOTE]

Old ideas and ways of thinking were at one point new. There is nothing challenging about a woman in a swimsuit these days, especially in a genre (in)famous for sexually objectifying women and even teenage girls. Right now, Carol Danvers' current costume is more challenging than Diana's classic costume ever was

Lady Death isn't challenging old ideas.

[QUOTE=marhawkman;6788326]It's a funny thing, there was a time period where it was seen as progressive to draw women in things that allowed them to be free to dress how they wanted, and not be forced to comply with prudish ideas about "proper" attire...[/QUOTE]

That was before it became an excuse to objectify and exploit women.

Thing is, it will always depend on the artist and context of the picture.

For instance:

[IMG]https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgqX0IJlVWWl8wPi51T3RS7wVLKmyvojuBxovXWhZGwotaQ3XmyMK4U3-7arfeUm2oegwx-ytQVuSmnY1z1089LqfG9q1IJpHN5gl7u0ermuew15cg_qKvF1mk-zpkG5LALGiH-FTgqGIcSZznC-nmc4bSfhcBuBBJeRBYZR_ZOSPJqDVHDHMRNbAUUbiQ/s806/00.jpg[/IMG]

Same character wearing the same outfit. But the picture on the left makes Diana look powerful, strong and dignified, while the one of the right is clearly meant to titillate and sexualize her.

And it's not just a matter of skin. I can show you pictures of Rogue--who, due to her powers, is almost always fully covered--that make her look as objectified as the pic on the right and vice versa.


From what I've seen--on Twitter at least--most people who want Diana to go back to her classic costume as opposed to her current one is less about modesty and more about rejecting any connection to the DCEU and Gal Gadot, which the Rebirth costume is clearly meant to synergize with.

Personally, I haven't a strong opinion either way. I'm fine with her current outfit as is, but I wouldn't mind if the "classic" one came back. Just keep her away from nonsense like the Finch outfit or full body armor.

I like to think the movie costume was heavily inspired by Nicola Scotts design on Earth 2. I dont mind it at all, It reminds me of the Golden Age, and the swimsuit also was due to awkward editorial interfering, so...

Either way, the actual costume is an actual redesign Nicola Scotts did on the movie.

I think Carol Strickland was right when she described Wonder Woman's Golden Age look as "athletic and regal"

I think that's the coolest one she's had in comics.

[Img]https://64.media.tumblr.com/21f7b162189fab260891f1e4b6b96826/tumblr_osqs7dYdoR1qfrvhzo1_1280.jpg[/img]
[Img]https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91oxEqHmqfL._AC_UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg[/img]
[Img]https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/LRwAAOSwbL1j~CIl/s-l1200.webp[/img]

I have seen other redesigns I liked that had the same energy
[Img]https://64.media.tumblr.com/9d4a749c837e58ae9beb379c566747d8/8acfe1a64109510b-21/s1280x1920/103d994bf19b2b4279914b013654136e7714586c.jpg[/img]

[QUOTE=Garrac;6789196]I like to think the movie costume was heavily inspired by Nicola Scotts design on Earth 2. I dont mind it at all, It reminds me of the Golden Age, and the swimsuit also was due to awkward editorial interfering, so...

Either way, the actual costume is an actual redesign Nicola Scotts did on the movie.[/QUOTE]

Before Nicola's Earth 2 there was a WW battleskirt image circulated online for yearrrrsss, that I think originated the trend.


[img]https://i.ibb.co/Gv61tXP/BATTLE-SKIRT.jpg[/img]


At the time it seemed like an appropriate way to placate and silence the "GIVE HER PANTS!" people, but in hindsight it's only a fig leaf for fans embarrassed by the classic swimsuit. Like Superman's trunks, that's nothing fans should feel embarrassed about. When you see him now, after all the failed trunkless attempts, Superman's trunks just look right.

[QUOTE=Koriand'r;6789681]Before Nicola's Earth 2 there was a WW battleskirt image circulated online for yearrrrsss, that I think originated the trend.


[img]https://i.ibb.co/Gv61tXP/BATTLE-SKIRT.jpg[/img]


At the time it seemed like an appropriate way to placate and silence the "GIVE HER PANTS!" people, but in hindsight it's only a fig leaf for fans embarrassed by the classic swimsuit. Like Superman's trunks, that's nothing fans should feel embarrassed about. When you see him now, after all the failed trunkless attempts, Superman's trunks just look right.[/QUOTE]

I dont think both are even remotely comparable. The supertrunks were an element of the costume present since the character was first created without any sexual implications, that was taken away because Jim Lee, Didio and Johns were ashamed by it for being "too superheroic".

On the other hand, the swimsuit was imposed by editorial on 72, and the version their fans keep claiming to come back is barely 30 years old.

[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;6788491]By "modest" clothing standards....she was only modest twice in her history. Maybe really only once. Which would be the Finch costume.


[img]https://i.redd.it/ug5cvu3mcpl41.jpg[/img]
[img]https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/V5lco3dpwDYrZphbMOYpLQ--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTY0MDtoPTk4Nw--/https://media.zenfs.com/en-US/homerun/comicvine.cbs.com/c706458c3cc5e87082d71f374251f897[/img][/QUOTE]

I like seeing all of these looks side-by-side!

[QUOTE=Alpha;6789233]I think Carol Strickland was right when she described Wonder Woman's Golden Age look as "athletic and regal"

I think that's the coolest one she's had in comics.

[Img]https://64.media.tumblr.com/21f7b162189fab260891f1e4b6b96826/tumblr_osqs7dYdoR1qfrvhzo1_1280.jpg[/img]
[Img]https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91oxEqHmqfL._AC_UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg[/img]
[Img]https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/LRwAAOSwbL1j~CIl/s-l1200.webp[/img][/QUOTE]

I like these powerful, elegant and regal Wonder Woman looks.

[QUOTE=Koriand'r;6789681]Before Nicola's Earth 2 there was a WW battleskirt image circulated online for yearrrrsss, that I think originated the trend.


[img]https://i.ibb.co/Gv61tXP/BATTLE-SKIRT.jpg[/img]


At the time it seemed like an appropriate way to placate and silence the "GIVE HER PANTS!" people, but in hindsight it's only a fig leaf for fans embarrassed by the classic swimsuit. Like Superman's trunks, that's nothing fans should feel embarrassed about. When you see him now, after all the failed trunkless attempts, Superman's trunks just look right.[/QUOTE]
There had been moves to try and shift WW away from the swimsuit long before that, Rucka wanted to give WW a more hoplite inspired look in his first run but DC only wanted it for the fight with Medusa arc.

What Guy_McNights and Garrac said is actually right. The swimsuit gets caught up in the discussion of comics portraying woman as sex objects, something the red trunks don't. There it's just a discussion of whether one thinks they're stupid or not.

I'm fine with either design.

Are they our Holliday Girls?

[img]https://i.imgur.com/5jw0woJ.jpeg[/img]

Holliday Girls as a biker gang kind of misses the point of the Holliday Girls. They were used in action stories yes,

But the most important thing about them was that they were being trained by Diana to have all the lessons that the amazons learned. They were learning about science and philosophy, and yes, physical training. This was about creating a system where women pushed themselves to be the best versions of themselves, and helped others do the same

[QUOTE=Alpha;6792973]Holliday Girls as a biker gang kind of misses the point of the Holliday Girls. They were used in action stories yes,

But the most important thing about them was that they were being trained by Diana to have all the lessons that the amazons learned. They were learning about science and philosophy, and yes, physical training. This was about creating a system where women pushed themselves to be the best versions of themselves, and helped others do the same[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately DC in last few decades have downplayed the science, philosophy or diplomacy in Themyscira to just paint the Amazons as a group of barbaric warriors who live only to kill.

[QUOTE=Sebastianne;6792822]Are they our Holliday Girls?

[img]https://i.imgur.com/5jw0woJ.jpeg[/img][/QUOTE]

They were mentioned to be a biker gang in Cloonans run, so im guessing a biker gang sorority of the college.
Makes more sense than twenty girls hopping into a beat up jalopy

[QUOTE=Sebastianne;6792822]Are they our Holliday Girls?

[img]https://i.imgur.com/5jw0woJ.jpeg[/img][/QUOTE]

I am not so sure, lol.

Do any say "wooo woooo"?

Crush could be a fun enemy for PG. Now I have to wonder about Divine... what would Crush think about Divine?

Jacob Edgar shared a variant of his WW design.

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/MWvjWEJ.png[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Gaius;6793164]Jacob Edgar shared a variant of his WW design.

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/MWvjWEJ.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Do you SEE the AWESOMENESS that comes with the spangles when the shorts are outside of the floss to pocket square range??? Sooooo good!!

[QUOTE=Gaius;6793164]Jacob Edgar shared a variant of his WW design.

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/MWvjWEJ.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Awesome!

[QUOTE=Stanlos;6793238]Do you SEE the AWESOMENESS that comes with the spangles when the shorts are outside of the floss to pocket square range??? Sooooo good!![/QUOTE]

Indeed, love the hair too!

Some of the commentary he made on that post

[url]https://twitter.com/jcbedgar/status/1782449626949238906[/url]

[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/QY9Fd2Q/image.png[/IMG]

[url]https://twitter.com/jcbedgar/status/1782753500490797326[/url]

[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/wK0VXpj/image.png[/IMG]

The prior design he unveiled for comparison

[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GIZ1BbVXoAANpeL.jpg[/img]

[QUOTE=Alpha;6792973]Holliday Girls as a biker gang kind of misses the point of the Holliday Girls. They were used in action stories yes,

But the most important thing about them was that they were being trained by Diana to have all the lessons that the amazons learned. They were learning about science and philosophy, and yes, physical training. This was about creating a system where women pushed themselves to be the best versions of themselves, and helped others do the same[/QUOTE]
It will remain to be seen though they came off "worldly" in the Cloonrad run as I recall.

[QUOTE=Fuzzy Mittens;6793041]They were mentioned to be a biker gang in Cloonans run, so im guessing a biker gang sorority of the college.
Makes more sense than twenty girls hopping into a beat up jalopy[/QUOTE]

Oh, that's a reference to Grant Morrison's Earth One right?

Yeah, the Holliday Girls there were disapointing

[QUOTE=Frontier;6793403]It will remain to be seen though they came off "worldly" in the Cloonrad run as I recall.[/QUOTE]

Maybe. Maybe they did study science and philosophy and push themselves to be amazing people.

But so far, I think the thought is just "female biker gangs are cool", which Is a statement I agree with, but doesn't fulfill the promise of the Holliday Girls.

Female Biker Gang seems more like something Diana would be hanging around with in the Dennis O'Neil era, when she had a boutique store and went up against THEM!

[QUOTE=Alpha;6793500]Maybe. Maybe they did study science and philosophy and push themselves to be amazing people.

But so far, I think the thought is just "female biker gangs are cool", which Is a statement I agree with, but doesn't fulfill the promise of the Holliday Girls.

Female Biker Gang seems more like something Diana would be hanging around with in the Dennis O'Neil era, when she had a boutique store and went up against THEM![/QUOTE]
I think the female biker gang is just a cool aesthetic thing.

[QUOTE=Frontier;6794323]I think the female biker gang is just a cool aesthetic thing.[/QUOTE]
Well.. it's CRUSH.... She already did that stuff. She somehow got it from Lobo.

For some reason CBR decided to re-publish this and its bringing new attention to it:

[SIZE=5]DC Nerfing Wonder Woman is Comic Legend Denny O'Neil's Greatest Regret
[/SIZE]
[quote][SIZE=4]Boy, did I screw that up. My thinking, such as it was, was this: she is a super being beholden to a male God. Let us make her somebody who achieves on her own. What I did, in effect, was take the feminist icon, and de-power her, and then, to compound the sin, give her a mentor who is a male, and then to compound that sin, name the male after one of the classics of Chinese literature.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=4]Instead of the woman who could move a mountain and do anything she set her mind to, Diana became a street-level vigilante with karate skills she learned by studying under a man. This change didn't last long, and eventually, Wonder Woman was brought back to the powerhouse that fans know her as.[/SIZE]
[url]https://screenrant.com/dc-nerfing-wonder-woman-denny-oneil-biggest-regret/[/url]
[/quote]

[img]https://static1.srcdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/wonder-woman-learns-karate-from-i-ching.jpg?q=70&fit=crop&w=1500&dpr=1[/img]

[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;6796291]For some reason CBR decided to re-publish this and its bringing new attention to it:

[SIZE=5]DC Nerfing Wonder Woman is Comic Legend Denny O'Neil's Greatest Regret
[/SIZE]
[/QUOTE]
Seems a bit odd to drudge this up, we're so far removed from this particular era that's not even like O'Neil would even crack top five worst people to have written WW.

I mean Mark Waid and Tom Taylor wrote worst and they try to defend their nonsense to some degree.

[QUOTE=Gaius;6796517]Seems a bit odd to drudge this up, we're so far removed from this particular era that's not even like O'Neil would even crack top five worst people to have written WW.

I mean Mark Waid and Tom Taylor wrote worst and they try to defend their nonsense to some degree.[/QUOTE]

Waid and Taylor have nowhere near the impact on Wonder Woman that O'Neil did by depowering her. Who knows where the character would've gone had she not lost her powers during that time.

[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;6796595]Waid and Taylor have nowhere near the impact on Wonder Woman that O'Neil did by depowering her. Who knows where the character would've gone had she not lost her powers during that time.[/QUOTE]

And how is it particularly relevant today? Outside of an occasional throwback story in an anthology or Dr. Cyber (who pretty much has no relation to the original version of the character) complaining about this era of WW is like a Batman fan still thinking "Adam West ruined Batman!" is a searing hot take.

WW being written as a blood thirsty warrior who needs to be called out by Superman or Batman for her moral failures is far more pernicious and relevant than anything leftover from the Mod era.

[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;6796291]For some reason CBR decided to re-publish this and its bringing new attention to it:

[SIZE=5]DC Nerfing Wonder Woman is Comic Legend Denny O'Neil's Greatest Regret
[/SIZE]


[img]https://static1.srcdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/wonder-woman-learns-karate-from-i-ching.jpg?q=70&fit=crop&w=1500&dpr=1[/img][/QUOTE]

He tried to do right by Diana and in many ways he did. Those Wonder Woman stories are different, but they aren't terrible. O'Neil brought her up to date, made her hip and cool for the first time ever and for that he should be applauded. The book had gone stagnant, he stirred the water and brought new life to it and Wonder Woman.

[QUOTE=Gaius;6796662]And how is it particularly relevant today? Outside of an occasional throwback story in an anthology or Dr. Cyber (who pretty much has no relation to the original version of the character) complaining about this era of WW is like a Batman fan still thinking "Adam West ruined Batman!" is a searing hot take.

WW being written as a blood thirsty warrior who needs to be called out by Superman or Batman for her moral failures is far more pernicious and relevant than anything leftover from the Mod era.[/QUOTE]

I never said it was relevant to today. I said the impacts are very different.

Phil Jimenez has a story in DC's Pride Special

[IMG]https://aiptcomics.com/ezoimgfmt/i0.wp.com/aiptcomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Spaces-min-scaled.jpg?resize=1000%2C563&ssl=1&ezimgfmt=ng:webp/ngcb4[/IMG]

Wait....they can't actually draw the Lynda Carter show? After doing a Lynda Carter WW77 comic???

^That art doesn't even mimick a sequence from the show. Its like....the boy is watching a silver Age WW series.

??

[QUOTE=DisneyBoy;6797047]Wait....they can't actually draw the Lynda Carter show? After doing a Lynda Carter WW77 comic???

^That art doesn't even mimick a sequence from the show. Its like....the boy is watching a silver Age WW series.

??[/QUOTE]

Believe they have to get Carter's permission everytime they want to use her likeness, given it's just a short story in a one shot probably not worth the hassle.

[QUOTE=Gaius;6796895]Phil Jimenez has a story in DC's Pride Special

[IMG]https://aiptcomics.com/ezoimgfmt/i0.wp.com/aiptcomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Spaces-min-scaled.jpg?resize=1000%2C563&ssl=1&ezimgfmt=ng:webp/ngcb4[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Is this his own experience with the mythos?

Also that one Amazon next to Hippolyta seems very underdressed :p.

[QUOTE=Frontier;6797123]Is this his own experience with the mythos?

Also that one Amazon next to Hippolyta seems very underdressed :p.[/QUOTE]

Probably.

The Amazon in the back is probably Wonder Girl from the tv show

[IMG]https://meanlouise.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/2015-05-27-wonder-woman5.jpg[/IMG]

oh yeah Drusilla. The one example of a Wonder Girl who's actually just a random Amazon

[QUOTE=Gaius;6797138]Probably.

The Amazon in the back is probably Wonder Girl from the tv show

[IMG]https://meanlouise.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/2015-05-27-wonder-woman5.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

I always enjoy looking at the side by side of their two costumes. It's like they ran out of money in the middle of designing Drusilla's.