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I really like most of Gunn's movies, but let's not pretend he ain't a dark and edgy guy. It's just his style is a lot more balance with black comedy (though that sometimes ends up a little juvenile) and tries to keep his mainstream stuff optimistic and heartfelt enough.
I'm not surprised he likes Dead Earth because it sounds like exactly the WW he'd do (though he'll just give it to someone else, so no worries about barbaric snine wailing WW).
[QUOTE=Mantis-Ray;6832470]Thats because Snyder was boring as hell with monotone characters and deathly serious tones set to a dull gray filter.
You can be dramatic as you want in refusing reality, thats your prerogative, but Gunn has actually made fun movies.[/QUOTE]
I agree that Snyder's movies were boring and Gunn's movies are fun.
But I thought Dead Earth was also fun, and yet there is no denying it was a pretty dark story. Dark and gritty stories can still be fun and that's how I think Gunn's movies are even though they have comedy too.
Reading DC Pride and wow, Jiminez' story is a thoughtful piece describing his time as a creative and the effort & thought he put into his vision of Themyscira.
Makes me upset all over again by Ruckas dumbass decision to destroy it so flippantly.
Yup, the Phil Jiminez story was very touching, and does make me really angry about Rucka's decision. It was so short sighted, and when you look at the success of Krakoa and Hickman's X-men, you see how big of a financial mistake it was
I do wonder what Phil meant by that statement of how he could've countered someone else coming along and destroying the floating Paradise Islands
[QUOTE=Alpha;6833251]Yup, the Phil Jiminez story was very touching, and does make me really angry about Rucka's decision. It was so short sighted, and when you look at the success of Krakoa and Hickman's X-men, you see how big of a financial mistake it was
I do wonder what Phil meant by that statement of how he could've countered someone else coming along and destroying the floating Paradise Islands[/QUOTE]
The Krakoa era is being erased as well and much more callously than what Rucka did. And some of Jiminez's direction did remain.
[QUOTE=Agent Z;6833266]The Keakoa era is being erased as well and much more callously than what Rucka did. And some of Jiminez's direction did remain.[/QUOTE]
I also don't think Rucka ever intended to erase the Jimenez direction at all. The Amazons were going to win in his original plan for Amazons Attack, so they were probably going to retain the Jimenez status quo long term. Everything else is Infinite Crisis BS he didn't want.
[QUOTE=Agent Z;6833266]The Krakoa era is being erased as well and much more callously than what Rucka did. And some of Jiminez's direction did remain.[/QUOTE]
nothing close to the point of what he was doing was ever done again after Rucka destroyed the floating islands and "cosmic university".
Yes Krakoa is being erased, but the huge success of it is undeniable. Great stories full of drama were still found after the X-men had a futuristic utopia.
Nor can anybody deny that it is leaving a major mark and is still changing how people look at the X-men
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;6833311]I also don't think Rucka ever intended to erase the Jimenez direction at all. The Amazons were going to win in his original plan for Amazons Attack, so they were probably going to retain the Jimenez status quo long term. Everything else is Infinite Crisis BS he didn't want.[/QUOTE]
Has Rucka ever said he intended to bring back the floating islands and make Themyscira a cosmically significant place?
I see no indication in his stories that it was leading to that future. I think he really did wanna go back to an anachronistic civilization, but with laser guns
[QUOTE=Alpha;6833634]nothing close to the point of what he was doing was ever done again after Rucka destroyed the floating islands and "cosmic university".
Yes Krakoa is being erased, but the huge success of it is undeniable. Great stories full of drama were still found after the X-men had a futuristic utopia.[/QUOTE]
You're ignoring the context in which Krakoa succeeded. This was after two decades of a bleak, hopeless direction for the X-Men series. Wonder Woman didn't reach anything near that period until DC dragged the book into the nonsense with Infinite Crisis.
[QUOTE]Nor can anybody deny that it is leaving a major mark and is still changing how people look at the X-men[/QUOTE]
So? Rucka's run left a mark as well. You don't need a utopia era to do that.
[QUOTE]
Has Rucka ever said he intended to bring back the floating islands and make Themyscira a cosmically significant place?
I see no indication in his stories that it was leading to that future. I think he really did wanna go back to an anachronistic civilization, but with laser guns[/QUOTE]
If he did, he never would have stuck with the abolished monarchy that Jiminez set up for one thing. He also showed the Amazons as an emerging superpower and had them as a developed society in his second run.
I think you're putting way too much emphasis on floating islands. The Wonder Woman books were telling interesting stories before and after them.
And at the risk of sounding callous given the context, Jiminez is sadly not the first Wonder Woman writer to have something he made discarded or changed. Jiminez himself did this during his run.
[QUOTE=Alpha;6833251]Yup, the Phil Jiminez story was very touching, and does make me really angry about Rucka's decision. It was so short sighted, and when you look at the success of Krakoa and Hickman's X-men, you see how big of a financial mistake it was
I do wonder what Phil meant by that statement of how he could've countered someone else coming along and destroying the floating Paradise Islands[/QUOTE]
I think you're forgetting that Krakoa had Wolverine, Storm, Emma Frost, Psylocke, Mr. Sinister, Sebastion Shaw, Kate Pryde, Scott Summers, Jean Grey and scores more superheroes and villains inhabiting it, it's not remotely a fair comparison to floating Themyscira, thoughtful and beautiful though it was.
[QUOTE=Alpha;6833634]nothing close to the point of what he was doing was ever done again after Rucka destroyed the floating islands and "cosmic university".
Yes Krakoa is being erased, but the huge success of it is undeniable. Great stories full of drama were still found after the X-men had a futuristic utopia.
Nor can anybody deny that it is leaving a major mark and is still changing how people look at the X-men
Has Rucka ever said he intended to bring back the floating islands and make Themyscira a cosmically significant place?
I see no indication in his stories that it was leading to that future. I think he really did wanna go back to an anachronistic civilization, but with laser guns[/QUOTE]
Why wouldn't he leave Themyscira back in that position at the end of his run when he intended them to win against the US? Philippus and Artemis's political positions were still intact, and the floating islands isn't the only spectacle on the technologically advanced nation. There really is no indicator that this would have been ruined long term had Infinite Crisis not hijacked everything, which is not Rucka's fault. The islands crashing was done to leave the Amazons temporarily vulnerable, but they were not intended to stay that way permanently
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;6833864]Why wouldn't he leave Themyscira back in that position at the end of his run when he intended them to win against the US? Philippus and Artemis's political positions were still intact, and the floating islands isn't the only spectacle on the technologically advanced nation. There really is no indicator that this would have been ruined long term had Infinite Crisis not hijacked everything, which is not Rucka's fault. The islands crashing was done to leave the Amazons temporarily vulnerable, but they were not intended to stay that way permanently[/QUOTE]
I sorta agree, but he did sacrifice the invisible tech too. Therefore no more invisible structures and mass transportation, like the invisible chariots I loved. But he also visibly advanced their other tech and gave them the Purple Death Ray, so there's that in his defense.
[QUOTE=Koriand'r;6833884]I sorta agree, but he did sacrifice the invisible tech too. Therefore no more invisible structures and mass transportation, like the invisible chariots I loved. But he also visibly advanced their other tech and gave them the Purple Death Ray, so there's that in his defense.[/QUOTE]
From what I recall, they used invisible cloaking shields in Infinite Crisis, but that was Johns and Jimenez.
But I think the invisible jets and chariots were meant to make a surprise return in his original plans for Amazons Attack
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;6833311]I also don't think Rucka ever intended to erase the Jimenez direction at all. The Amazons were going to win in his original plan for Amazons Attack, so they were probably going to retain the Jimenez status quo long term. Everything else is Infinite Crisis BS he didn't want.[/QUOTE]
He's talked about this in some interviews from the past couple of years but at the time (2002-03) he and Jimenez just had different views of the Amazons. Don't know if planned to put everything back in place if his run had been allowed to run it's course, stuff like the "shortest war in history" seems to suggest maybe.
[QUOTE=Agent Z;6833794]You;re ignoring the context in which Krakoa succeeded. This was after two decades of a bleak, hopeless direction for the X-Men series. Wonder Woman didn't reach anything near that period until DC dragged the book into the nonsense with Infinite Crisis.
[/QUOTE]
The most important context being ignored is Jimenez's run, much as I like it, wasn't a financial success. Hickman's Krakoa was.
[QUOTE=Agent Z;6833794]
And at the risk of sounding callous given the context, Jiminez is sadly not the first Wonder Woman writer to have something he made discarded or changed. Jiminez himself did this during his run.[/QUOTE]
What did Jiminez discard? He literally pulled things from all runs prior and carried them forward. The floating islands was a continuation of the flying fortress Diana used in the Eric Luke run, the story with Circe was built out of what Messner Loebs did with giving her a daughter, the stuff with Hippolyta's past came out of the Byrne run, the stuff with Silver Swan was a response to what had happened with Vanessa through the last 10 years (and Cassie).
Jimenez tried to embrace what had come before and shape it into something that fit the themes he wanted to explore.
Rucka keeping the Amazon Democracy isn't him embracing the most significant part of how the amazons had evolved. And again, the purple healing ray and the laser guns are nothing compared to what the amazons had in the Jiminez run.
I never implied that Krakoa was financial successful solely because of the utopian concept, but that set up allowed them to tell amazing and dramatic stories, and people did appreciate the worldbuilding going on there.
Wonder Woman comics aren't as popular as X-men, but the Cosmic University is something that writers could more easily take advantage of compared to the current take on the amazons. It made them significant to the university in a way that doesn't exist anywhere else in the DC universe.
I really don't get why people defend what Rucka did. You liked his stories, I did to, but there was absolutely no need for him to throw out the most significant landmark that the previous writer achieved, something meaningul and NEW
[QUOTE=Gaius;6833935]
The most important context being ignored is Jimenez's run, much as I like it, wasn't a financial success. Hickman's Krakoa was.[/QUOTE]
And I just wanna point out that financial success isn't how people here operate when they are discussing what Wonder Woman should be, so I don't get why shoot down this idea based on how many comics it sold at the time.
[QUOTE=Alpha;6833982]And I just wanna point out that financial success isn't how people here operate when they are discussing what Wonder Woman should be, so I don't get why shoot down this idea based on how many comics it sold at the time.[/QUOTE]
I agree "selling well =/= quality" but if you don't want to talk financial comparison, than I'd suggest not inviting the comparison the first place;
[QUOTE=Alpha;6833251]Yup, the Phil Jiminez story was very touching, and does make me really angry about Rucka's decision. It was so short sighted, and when you look at the success of Krakoa and Hickman's X-men, [B]you see how big of a financial mistake it was[/B]
[/QUOTE]
If you want to say it [I]could[/I] have led to great financial success than go ahead but that's a meaningless hypothetical.
[QUOTE=Gaius;6834002]I agree "selling well =/= quality" but if you don't want to talk financial comparison, than I'd suggest not inviting the comparison the first place;
If you want to say it [I]could[/I] have led to great financial success than go ahead but that's a meaningless hypothetical.[/QUOTE]
Good point. I do think there is a difference between saying "this idea had financial viability and you can see how well utilized it was in that other franchise" versus "this idea didn't have financial viability because this one run wasn't a big financial success",
but it's not very important, and you still made a good point
[QUOTE=Gaius;6833935]He's talked about this in some interviews from the past couple of years but at the time (2002-03) he and Jimenez just had different views of the Amazons. Don't know if planned to put everything back in place if his run had been allowed to run it's course, stuff like the "shortest war in history" seems to suggest maybe.[/QUOTE]
I can't imagine the war being short if the Amazons were set back to Perez-levels of tech, so they probably were going to retain their advancements.
[QUOTE=Alpha;6833979]Rucka keeping the Amazon Democracy isn't him embracing the most significant part of how the amazons had evolved. And again, the purple healing ray and the laser guns are nothing compared to what the amazons had in the Jiminez run.
I really don't get why people defend what Rucka did. You liked his stories, I did to, but there was absolutely no need for him to throw out the most significant landmark that the previous writer achieved, something meaningul and NEW[/QUOTE]
Because the story Rucka was crafting didn't require the stuff he ignored, but he didn't make it so that stuff didn't exist or couldn't be brought back if future writers wanted to bring it back.
It's actually a more ideal way to handle things than we typically get. Or at least it would have been if not for [I]Infinite Crisis[/I]. Which again, is not what Rucka planned. And the technological advancements that Jimenez gave them is a major reason they are becoming a world super power in Rucka's run and why the US in particular wants to take advantage of their situation to get at their stuff.
[QUOTE=Alpha;6833979]What did Jiminez discard? [/QUOTE]
Circe's redemption, Vanessa being an ordinary girl who wasn't a villain and Cassie being an ordinary girl who wasn't a demigoddess.
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;6834079]
It's actually a more ideal way to handle things than we typically get. Or at least it would have been if not for [I]Infinite Crisis[/I]. Which again, is not what Rucka planned. And the technological advancements that Jimenez gave them is a major reason they are becoming a world super power in Rucka's run and why the US in particular wants to take advantage of their situation to get at their stuff.[/QUOTE]
By contrast, the things I listed that Jiminez removed or changed couldn't be restored so easily without a reboot.
For the record, I still like Jiminez's run.
[QUOTE=Agent Z;6834217]Circe's redemption, Vanessa being an ordinary girl who wasn't a villain and Cassie being an ordinary girl who wasn't a demigoddess.
By contrast, the things I listed that Jiminez removed or changed couldn't be restored so easily without a reboot.
For the record, I still like Jiminez's run.[/QUOTE]
He didnt' exactly discard as he just added onto. Vanessa was an ordinary girl who was turned and manipulated into being a villain. Cassie was an ordinary girl who discovered she was a demigoddess.
[QUOTE=Agent Z;6834217]Circe's redemption, Vanessa being an ordinary girl who wasn't a villain and Cassie being an ordinary girl who wasn't a demigoddess.
By contrast, the things I listed that Jiminez removed or changed couldn't be restored so easily without a reboot.
For the record, I still like Jiminez's run.[/QUOTE]
I do dislike Cassie being the daughter of Zeus, didn't remember that had happened in the Jiminez run, but ultimately that is an addition (that does miss the point of the character)
Vanessa becoming Silver Swain was completely acknowledging her history thus far, and trying to recognize how painful it must have been to her to be replaced by Cassie.
As for Circe Jimenez didn't turn her back into a villain, that happened in Underworld Unleashed, and Phil decided to acknowledge her daughter and leave that a redeemable part of Circe
I also should have mentioned how he incorporated everything that was done with Donna Troy, even when he wasn't a fan of it
[URL="https://leagueofcomicgeeks.com/community/thread/21876705"]AMA from Javier Rodriguez [/URL]- Artist of [I]Zatanna: Bring Down The House,[/I]
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/e1I7Cd8.png[/IMG]
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/1A2f50a.png[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Alpha;6834504]I do dislike Cassie being the daughter of Zeus, didn't remember that had happened in the Jiminez run, but ultimately that is an addition (that does miss the point of the character)
[/QUOTE]
Ruckas run. The daughter thing was Ruckas run. Cassie journeys to the underworld with Diana and Ferdinand, and is granted a boon by Athena. So she asks who her dad is and its revealed to be Zeus.
[QUOTE=Alpha;6834504]
Vanessa becoming Silver Swain was completely acknowledging her history thus far, and trying to recognize how painful it must have been to her to be replaced by Cassie.[/QUOTE]
None of that required her to be turned into a villain.
[QUOTE=Fuzzy Mittens;6835385]Ruckas run. The daughter thing was Ruckas run. Cassie journeys to the underworld with Diana and Ferdinand, and is granted a boon by Athena. So she asks who her dad is and its revealed to be Zeus.[/QUOTE]
My mistake. I forgot Jiminez just had Zeus give her powers.
No that was Byrne, are you sure you remember these stories well enough to complain about them?
I'm pretty sure the backup stories in the Jimenez run showed Cassie (drawn to appear about 10 years old for no apparent reason) tracking down her father and he was just some guy in an apartment.
Rucka, as I understood things, threw that out and went with Daddy Zeus instead, after teasing Ares as her Daddy.
[QUOTE=DisneyBoy;6835513]I'm pretty sure the backup stories in the Jimenez run showed Cassie (drawn to appear about 10 years old for no apparent reason) tracking down her father and he was just some guy in an apartment.
Rucka, as I understood things, threw that out and went with Daddy Zeus instead, after teasing Ares as her Daddy.[/QUOTE]
Jimenez heavily implied the dad was Zeus in disguise. She gave Zeus a drawing she drew as a kid, and the guy has it on his fridge.
[QUOTE=Koriand'r;6835431]No that was Byrne, are you sure you remember these stories well enough to complain about them?[/QUOTE]
I don't have a perfect memory, I admit. The Cassie Zeus thing is sort of a blindspot for me.
And I'm not complaining.
From Twitter:
[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GO6FxtyaoAAzBaW?format=jpg&name=medium[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Guy_McNichts;6835940]From Twitter:
[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GO6FxtyaoAAzBaW?format=jpg&name=medium[/IMG][/QUOTE]
"But guys, why did WW get a game before Superman?!?!"
I assume that "two" Superman animated shows are just STAS and MAWS? Because even that's underselling it with the 80s Superman show and, for all intents and purposes, Legion of Superheroes.
[QUOTE=Gaius;6835955]"But guys, why did WW get a game before Superman?!?!"
I assume that "two" Superman animated shows are just STAS and MAWS? Because even that's underselling it with the 80s Superman show and, for all intents and purposes, Legion of Superheroes.[/QUOTE]
And it seems to ignore the Fleischer shorts/series/movie whatever they're considered
Anyways the only good elseworld Wonder Woman popped up again this week
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/gbesFsj.png[/IMG]
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/QspHj3g.png[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Gaius;6835955]"But guys, why did WW get a game before Superman?!?!"
I assume that "two" Superman animated shows are just STAS and MAWS? Because even that's underselling it with the 80s Superman show and, for all intents and purposes, Legion of Superheroes.[/QUOTE]
It's also pretty impressive how Superman has both Wonder Woman and Batman beat in live-action shows. From 1952 to 2024, Superman has been the most dominant in the live-action television medium of the Trinity.
By contrast, Wonder Woman and Batman only have the Lynda Carter show and the Adam West show, respectively.
[QUOTE=Gaius;6836127]Anyways the only good elseworld Wonder Woman popped up again this week
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/gbesFsj.png[/IMG]
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/QspHj3g.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]
I'm surprised they didn't just use a dinosaur equivalent of Booster.
[QUOTE=Agent Z;6836361]I'm surprised they didn't just use a dinosaur equivalent of Booster.[/QUOTE]
Jurassic League Booster should just be a time traveling proto-human with a beetle he names "Ted" :p
As i've been getting back into the X-Men verse...just seeing all the building they've done in this past era makes me wish for a day when we could get something similar to WW (and the DCu in general).
WW can be an epic book and spawn epic titles if DC would just allow it to and have a team that REALLY WANTS TO SHOW who WW is!
[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;6836639]As i've been getting back into the X-Men verse...just seeing all the building they've done in this past era makes me wish for a day when we could get something similar to WW (and the DCu in general).
WW can be an epic book and spawn epic titles if DC would just allow it to and have a team that REALLY WANTS TO SHOW who WW is![/QUOTE]
Just don't fizzle out as badly as Krakoa did.
[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;6836639]As i've been getting back into the X-Men verse...just seeing all the building they've done in this past era makes me wish for a day when we could get something similar to WW (and the DCu in general).
WW can be an epic book and spawn epic titles if DC would just allow it to and have a team that REALLY WANTS TO SHOW who WW is![/QUOTE]
Totally agree with you there. There is much to learn from the Krakoa era
[QUOTE=Agent Z;6836360]It's also pretty impressive how Superman has both Wonder Woman and Batman beat in live-action shows. From 1952 to 2024, Superman has been the most dominant in the live-action television medium of the Trinity.
By contrast, Wonder Woman and Batman only have the Lynda Carter show and the Adam West show, respectively.[/QUOTE]
To be fair, the reason for Batman not having live action TV shows is simply that DC believes a character like Batman deserves the big screen. They don't want to dilute the Batman brand by having him appear in an "inferior" medium. That's why his TV appearances are only in animation.
Superman is seen as a lower level IP, giving him a low budget live action series is fine by them.
[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;6836639]As i've been getting back into the X-Men verse...just seeing all the building they've done in this past era makes me wish for a day when we could get something similar to WW (and the DCu in general).
WW can be an epic book and spawn epic titles if DC would just allow it to and have a team that REALLY WANTS TO SHOW who WW is![/QUOTE]
Maybe we should start with baby steps, like getting more than one ongoing. Or building up another character from WW's mythos who can actually sell some comics.