Wonder Woman - General Discussion

[QUOTE=Frontier;6538008]How would you rate Francis Manapul?

As divisive as Cloonrad became the one universal compliment they've received was writing a good Trinity story.[/QUOTE]
Loved his Trinity, or at least the opening arc, continuity weirdness aside. Right now would be a good time to have a Trinity book since there’s no JL. Doing the Trinity as a book always feels redundant when there’s a JL book since JL usually just is a Trinity book.
[QUOTE=Guy_McNichts;6537691]I'm not feeling generous. I am sick to death of "use every crayon" writing.

Diana shows up, gets wrecked, and does nothing the rest of the issue. Superman, Flash and Green Lantern keep fighting, while Metamorpho delivers the finishing blow, but Diana contributes absolutely nothing. Nothing.
So, why is she even in the damn story? Why is anyone in this story? It's a Superman/Batman comic. Just be a Superman and Batman comic.

Waid could literally have left her out of this arc entirely and not one goddamn thing would change. So why bother? What was the point? Just like the last time, when he had her turned to mud. As if the plot couldn't have kept going with that crucial bit? What purpose does it serve? Who is it supposed to appeal to?

I'm sick of this writing approach in general. It feels like no one wants to write actual protagonists anymore. They want to write diet team-ups or "the entire universe" by cramming as many characters into each story as possible when most of them don't need to be there. It doesn't serve the plot, and more often than not, it doesn't serve the characters themselves.

I hate it, and I don't care that it could be worse. I know it can be worse. I've seen worse. But that doesn't mean I have to tolerate it. If Waid wants to play in his stupid Silver Age nostalgia corner...fine, have a ball. But leave Wonder Woman out of it.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough but then I think you should avoid Waid and Priest as writers since they only aggravate you. I’ve dropped Tom Taylor as a writer entirely because he has the same effect on me. Can’t stand his work so I don’t read it and I’m happier for it.
[QUOTE=nj06;6537817]Is it no longer canon that Superman and Wonder Woman were once in a relationship?[/QUOTE]
Orlando referenced it as happening even after the Rebirth reboot, and Johns JL has always remained canon. My take is that yes it happened as a fling in their youth, they broke up and remained friends/colleagues.

[QUOTE=Gaius;6537842]Eh…Mora’s like Redondo that I can see why others like him but he does nothing for me outside of Klaus.[/QUOTE]

Damn, who are your favorite artists currently if you don’t mind me asking? Have you read Once and Future because that book is on par with Klaus in terms of letting Mora kick ass. I personally love his WW.

[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;6537907]She's been part of a shared universe for 80 years so no one should be surprised that she shows up in other books and isnt crucial to the plot. Of all her appearances this is the most innocent. She and every hero got their asses kicked...NEWS AT 11.[/QUOTE]

Yeah I get she has issues with how she's portrayed, but complaining every time she appears in something even in the most minor role is just borderline whining.

Like for those who don't know, World's Finest is a crossover heavy book. The protagonists are ostensibly Superman and Batman but it also features major appearances from all manner of characters. First arc had the Doom Patrol helping out, 2nd arc had the Titans, and this arc featured Metamorpho, Will Magnus, and the Metal Men in significant capacity dealing with Newmazo's robot war. And Metamorpho gets the final shot because this entire story started with him getting framed for murder, so there is a story reason for that.

There's nothing really egregious here. Hell she even got a hit in, so its not like she didn't contribute in the visual brawl.

Ok so I often see people wondering good comics post-Marston pre-Pérez, so, as I've read EVERYTHING ever published on Wonder Woman, there you go:

-Joye Hummel
-Sekowsky
-Legend of Wonder Woman
-Brief parts from the Thomas/Colan run
-The challenge arc

Alltho, I realise now that, except for Hummel and Busiek/Robbins, everything else has had some polemic of the sorts, or isn't precisely universally liked

[QUOTE=Garrac;6538134]Ok so I often see people wondering good comics post-Marston pre-Pérez, so, as I've read EVERYTHING ever published on Wonder Woman, there you go:

-Joye Hummel
-Sekowsky
-Legend of Wonder Woman
-Brief parts from the Thomas/Colan run
-The challenge arc

Alltho, I realise now that, except for Hummel and Busiek/Robbins, everything else has had some polemic of the sorts, or isn't precisely universally liked[/QUOTE]

That's fairly accurate, I thnk.

But does our community really want (not the character, generally speaking, ..but) a "universally" appealing [I]Wonder Woman[/I] comic? Is it more appealing to some of us that we might be the [I]enlightened few,[/I] who get the Wonderverse? Is the exclusivity of that more satisfying, than embracing characters and stories, which might attract fans of [B]Superman, Green Lantern,[/B] ..[Eyeroll, gag, choke] [B]Harley Quinn,[/B] ..[B]X-Men[/B] and [B]Avengers...[/B]

Even if we complain about how unbearable it is, every day? [Uh oh. He went there. :eek:]

And to be fair...I think your post is a textbook argument for why there really should be TWO monthly WW comics! DC Comics could use Nubia, Black Adam or whatever hot-trending character to get enough sales for a solidly good launch, before turning that second WW title into the pegacorn-riding, Kraken-smacking, Amazon-romping [I]Lord Of The Red, Blue And Gold Rings,[/I] that so many of us have been clamoring for, for decades!

The hardcore heroic fantasy WW fans and fans (like me) of more traditional superheroics and sci-fi ..shouldn't be forced to fight over the same comic, and that's exactly what we're doing. Neither genre or fan faction is better or more deserving, than the other.

[QUOTE=Vordan;6538093]

Damn, who are your favorite artists currently if you don’t mind me asking? Have you read Once and Future because that book is on par with Klaus in terms of letting Mora kick ass. I personally love his WW.[/QUOTE]
Hmm, currently? I'm not reading much DC currently so I can't say anyone immediately springs to mind.

I do specify I don't think Mora's bad or anything, his art just doesn't excite like it seems to everyone else. I wouldn't really say his WW is any better than any other big name DC artist like Lee or Fabok, fairly easily falls within the DC house style. Maybe I'd change my mind if he actually had to a draw a WW book rather than just the commissions/splash page cameos/cover art.

[QUOTE=Gaius;6538200]Hmm, currently? I'm not reading much DC currently so I can't say anyone immediately springs to mind.

I do specify I don't think Mora's bad or anything, his art just doesn't excite like it seems to everyone else. I wouldn't really say his WW is any better than any other big name DC artist like Lee or Fabok, fairly easily falls within the DC house style. Maybe I'd change my mind if he actually had to a draw a WW book rather than just the commissions/splash page cameos/cover art.[/QUOTE]
It was at least nice to see classic Dr. Cyber for a brief moment.

[QUOTE=Garrac;6538134]Ok so I often see people wondering good comics post-Marston pre-Pérez, so, as I've read EVERYTHING ever published on Wonder Woman, there you go:

-Joye Hummel
-Sekowsky
-Legend of Wonder Woman
-Brief parts from the Thomas/Colan run
-The challenge arc

Alltho, I realise now that, except for Hummel and Busiek/Robbins, everything else has had some polemic of the sorts, or isn't precisely universally liked[/QUOTE]

What is “the challenge arc”? Are you referring to the so-called 12 labors before Diana’s return to the JLA?

[QUOTE=Largo161;6539295]What is “the challenge arc”? Are you referring to the so-called 12 labors before Diana’s return to the JLA?[/QUOTE]

Yeap, Im not a fan but I like the art, at the very least. And Walt Disney being the ultimate villain was bonkers.

How is Byrne's WW run? Never read it and I'm a bit interested in it due to heavy Demon usage.

[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;6537663]After reading his responses, I just ordered a used copy of the first volume of Mr. Busiek's Trinity series. I know Diana associating with Clark and Bruce period is becoming an increasingly taboo subject on this board, but what was the consensus on that series? Just at a glance it seems to actually be aiming for equal treatment on the characters. [/QUOTE]

Personally I think it is more of DC Universe book than Trinity. I'd argue that Trinity are present only in 1/3 of the story and are not the main characters. As for WW's portrayal, I think Busiek wrote her well, but it heavily references her status quo that she had at the time. Like, remember that she dated Nemesis? So reading now it does feel a bit dated.

[QUOTE=HsssH;6539390]How is Byrne's WW run? Never read it and I'm a bit interested in it due to heavy Demon usage.

[/QUOTE]

If you can forget the consequences, I guess the first arc is mid but funny. Rest of his run isn't his most terrible work, but it's definitely a show of Byrne's ongoing downfall since 1986. Not everything was bad, like, at least him and Messner-Loebs being on the title shielded Wonder Woman from some of the worst consequences of the early 90s (except that Mike Deodato arc) I can see how some fans can enjoy this run and find interesting stuff on the archeology recovering shit from Kanigher, but in general I'd say it's the worst run from the second volume.

I think the most relevant part of Byrne's run was introducing Cassie and re-establishing Donna as Diana's sister (I think).

Hippolyta as time-traveling WW of the JSA was him too.

Yeah, not many stuff came from the Byrne WW run.

[QUOTE=Frontier;6540347]I think the most relevant part of Byrne's run was introducing Cassie and re-establishing Donna as Diana's sister (I think).[/QUOTE]

Tbh most of Cass characerisation that made her famous came later from Young Justice.

And, well, what he did with Donna was probably the worst part of his run.

[QUOTE=Garrac;6541057]Tbh most of Cass characerisation that made her famous came later from Young Justice.

And, well, what he did with Donna was probably the worst part of his run.[/QUOTE]

But he made Donna notoriously well known~
...For all the wrong reasons. XD

Nah his take on Donna was on the right track. Not the right answer, but also not far off

I find his Cheetah story kind of interesting actually.

His solution for Donna wasn't great, but it's still better than her having no connection to Wonder Woman. I think Byrne's most positive contribution is establishing a proper Wonder Family with Hippolyta, Artemis, Donna and Cassie, which paid off in the subsequent runs. Oh, and the Invisible Plane.

I can't believe y'all are so desperate to see Donna on the Wonder Woman comics that end getting to root for byrne's run

i, for my part, between some shit and no shit at all...

[QUOTE=Garrac;6541256]I can't believe y'all are so desperate to see Donna on the Wonder Woman comics that end getting to root for byrne's run

i, for my part, between some shit and no shit at all...[/QUOTE]

Byrne's run is actually OK compared to most of the stuff we got after Rucka :p

[QUOTE=Psy-lock;6541268]Byrne's run is actually OK compared to most of the stuff we got after Rucka :p[/QUOTE]
I can really tell you I prefer 100 more Willow Wilson boring developments and a thousand revenges of the gods over Byrne giving fame to Donna Troy as the most convoluted and needlessly overcomplicated origins on existence.

Cant believe ive ended up being one of those "but what about donna troy" Wonder Woman fans.

Changing a little the subject from the "I like to compare trans people as pedophiles" dude, I do like Eric Lukes posterior run more. I am aware its not groundbreaking work, but i dunno, i am a colectionist, id like to have the run on my shelves tbh.

I mean, I ended up having Robinsons shitty run there, hard to go worse.

[img]https://64.media.tumblr.com/e64df81b0d75e3f7ec07e9e8c6ab934b/10fbce7084bd446e-33/s540x810/e0a299300fd50670509b8d24fa5f48d3a75d7a03.gifv[/img]
[img]https://64.media.tumblr.com/2b7d934354092ecf5f3cf8cd33620b5f/10fbce7084bd446e-1a/s540x810/ab05496eb76beae0bfb2156b82b083b0b5e00c13.gifv[/img]
[img]https://64.media.tumblr.com/01ab879fb5714a11742d57f243036151/10fbce7084bd446e-44/s540x810/28c5144cd344b0ba7285d197b09252fb4dd3fd75.gifv[/img]

Looking at those gifs, the front part of her skirt goes from long to short....

[QUOTE=HsssH;6539390]How is Byrne's WW run? Never read it and I'm a bit interested in it due to heavy Demon usage.[/QUOTE]

Haven't re-read it since it came out so memory is crazy fuzzy. It has some good bits here and there. It's not the worst WW run I've read. But I don't think I can say that I recommend it, unless you're specifically looking for something that happened there, like Cassie's debut and early characterization, or the development of some Amazonian supporting players like Hippolyta and Artemis, or you're writing an essay on the ever-confusing and pointlessly convoluted drama that is Donna Troy.

If you can find it super, super cheap (like, for free).....and you have some time to kill and nothing else to do....then.....maybe. But I don't think I've ever recommended this run and I doubt I ever will.

[QUOTE=Garrac;6541256]I can't believe y'all are so desperate to see Donna on the Wonder Woman comics that end getting to root for byrne's run

[/QUOTE]

They aren't. It's faint praise at best.

McFarlane announced a classic Wonder Woman at SDCC.

[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F1lkwXVXoAE5a_Z?format=jpg&name=large[/IMG]

Must of have run out of costumes she wore one time drawn by his buddies turn into figures I assume.

[QUOTE=Holt;6542374]McFarlane announced a classic Wonder Woman at SDCC.

[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F1lkwXVXoAE5a_Z?format=jpg&name=large[/IMG][/QUOTE]

We'll see..,. Not a fan of that version ( the odd plonked on lower " wing" and pokey bottom) and I'm never a fan of tendrils of hair over the shoulders. They always look weird and they prohibit head movement. Just move the hair back....

Agreed. And this is the Dodsons' look from the Gail Simone era. Not exactly classic. Just pre-Nu52. She only had it for what....2.5 years?

How is it no one has made a Perez Diana yet???

Don't let Guy_Mcnights read the solicits for Waid's new WF's issue.

[QUOTE=Zagre;6545018]Don't let Guy_Mcnights read the solicits for Waid's new WF's issue.[/QUOTE]

I just read it....... oh boy

That solicit is written like it is trying on purpose to get WW fans angry.

[QUOTE=HsssH;6545065]That solicit is written like it is trying on purpose to get WW fans angry.[/QUOTE]

Where can i read the solicit?

Superman and Batman's friendship with WW delenda est.

[QUOTE=Gaius;6545173]Superman and Batman's friendship with WW delenda est.[/QUOTE]

delenda est what? Where is the solicit?

Basically the plot's heading to the Kingdom Come universe to find Superman's sidekick Boy Thunder who spoilers [spoil]is the future Magog[/spoil] and the solicit includes them encountering a "jaded Superman, a broken Batman, and war hungry Wonder Woman"

[QUOTE=Mantis-Ray;6545221]Basically the plot's heading to the Kingdom Come universe to find Superman's sidekick Boy Thunder who spoilers [spoil]is the future Magog[/spoil] and the solicit includes them encountering a "jaded Superman, a broken Batman, and war hungry Wonder Woman"[/QUOTE]

What's that got to do with WW? Outside of bringing her trashy KC version back to the conversation.

[QUOTE=Mantis-Ray;6545221]Basically the plot's heading to the Kingdom Come universe to find Superman's sidekick Boy Thunder who spoilers [spoil]is the future Magog[/spoil] and the solicit includes them encountering a "jaded Superman, a broken Batman, and war hungry Wonder Woman"[/QUOTE]

Folks forget, Kingdom Come was never meant to be a blueprint on how to handle these characters properly. Each member of the Trinity screwed up in some way the 'real' versions wouldn't. Diana being a warmonger, Bruce being an authoritarian, Clark abandoning humanity....these were broken, failed versions of the characters, not them the way they're supposed to be.

I'd think Wonder fans would breathe a sigh of relief over it, honestly. Waid's not writing Diana as she should be, he's writing a failed version who had to fail in order for the dystopian future of KC to happen. Better this than him writing the main canon version is it not? Anything he does wrong here is actually doing right by that specific version.

Granted, DC saw the sales figures for KC and all the rave reviews and they learned the wrong lessons from it, for a long long time. But nothing Waid does today is going to make KC's influence any stronger. And I feel like the one person we can trust at DC to remember that KC isn't meant to be a blueprint is Waid himself.

It's remarkable the extent DC goes to make being a Wonder Woman fan an endurance contest.

Waid wrote WW well in the recent 80th Anniversary special and he has grown a lot as a writer over the years. He has also said in the past that he had come to regret the way he wrote Diana in KC. Fingers crossed that this is his big redemption moment.

I thought Diana was fine in his JLA run.

KC seems to be the only objectionable thing he's written with her, and he regrets it. I'm not super excited about this arc or her appearance in it, but I'm way more nervous about King on the solo book.

G’nort’s Illustrated Swimsuit Edition Variant by Pablo Villalobos

[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/HHKz4r7/Image.png[/IMG]