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[QUOTE=Frontier;6610384]I don't think even the DCAU team would be as sacrilegious to Jack Kirby as trying to hook Barda up with anyone not named Scott Free.
This was back when WW's animated appearances were pretty strict. I think it prevented her from being in S:TAS, the first season of Brave and the Bold (outside a cameo), and Donna from appearing in Teen Titans and Young Justice.[/QUOTE]
Where was the reverence for WW's mythos then? :p
[QUOTE=Gaius;6610387]Where was the reverence for WW's mythos then? :p[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately Jack Kirby trumps everything :p.
Alright if anyone's curious Birds of Prey 2 explains why Canary is trying to heist Themyscira.
[spoil] According to Meridian who is from the future, Sin who the Amazons imprisoned for whatever reason is being inhabited or possessed by some evil entity who will at some point murder all the Amazons on the island in the future. So Canary is trying to get Sin off the island before anyone gets hurt. Now why doesn't Canary tell Diana about this? Uh her reason is she doesn't want to risk the chance of Diana possibly saying no, presumably to handle it herself or something.[/spoil]
[QUOTE=Mantis-Ray;6610567]Alright if anyone's curious Birds of Prey 2 explains why Canary is trying to heist Themyscira.
[spoil] According to Meridian who is from the future, Sin who the Amazons imprisoned for whatever reason is being inhabited or possessed by some evil entity who will at some point murder all the Amazons on the island in the future. So Canary is trying to get Sin off the island before anyone gets hurt. Now why doesn't Canary tell Diana about this? Uh her reason is she doesn't want to risk the chance of Diana possibly saying no, presumably to handle it herself or something.[/spoil][/QUOTE]
[spoil]And then Diana will show up and tell her she totally would've said yes :p.[/spoil]
[QUOTE=Frontier;6610570][spoil]And then Diana will show up and tell her she totally would've said yes :p.[/spoil][/QUOTE]
[spoil]It doesn't make any sense that Dinah's first go to isn't to talk to Diana about this issue[/spoil]
[QUOTE=Mantis-Ray;6610567]Alright if anyone's curious Birds of Prey 2 explains why Canary is trying to heist Themyscira.
[spoil] According to Meridian who is from the future, Sin who the Amazons imprisoned for whatever reason is being inhabited or possessed by some evil entity who will at some point murder all the Amazons on the island in the future. So Canary is trying to get Sin off the island before anyone gets hurt. Now why doesn't Canary tell Diana about this? Uh her reason is she doesn't want to risk the chance of Diana possibly saying no, presumably to handle it herself or something.[/spoil][/QUOTE]
I feel like whoever this person is, Diana probably could handle it, but whatevs.
[QUOTE=Frontier;6610308][url=https://open.spotify.com/episode/5waxKDTlZ254W7VwUwW2Hq]On the first episode of the Justice League Revisited podcast with Susan Eisenberg and Geek To Me's James Enstall, Dan Riba was their first guest and at the 16:28 mark revealed out of the original seven, Wonder Woman was the hold out when they were working on the main cast because of the deal with the Marston estate and they had Big Barda just in case they couldn't get Diana.[/url][/QUOTE]
Makes sense. Her rights back then stated she needed to be the main character as the estate was probably trying to angle for a solo series.
[QUOTE=Mantis-Ray;6610567]Alright if anyone's curious Birds of Prey 2 explains why Canary is trying to heist Themyscira.
[spoil] According to Meridian who is from the future, Sin who the Amazons imprisoned for whatever reason is being inhabited or possessed by some evil entity who will at some point murder all the Amazons on the island in the future. So Canary is trying to get Sin off the island before anyone gets hurt. Now why doesn't Canary tell Diana about this? Uh her reason is she doesn't want to risk the chance of Diana possibly saying no, presumably to handle it herself or something.[/spoil][/QUOTE]
Black Canary: There's this threat on the island so dangerous not even Wonder Woman could handle it.
Also Black Canary: To deal with this threat, I'll need a failed physiatrist who swings a baseball bat.
[QUOTE=Gaius;6610745]Black Canary: There's this thread on the island so dangerous not even Wonder Woman could handle it.
Also Black Canary: To deal with this threat, I'll need a failed physiatrist who swings a baseball bat.[/QUOTE]
To add to that Canary actually had no idea or plan of how to actually get on the island. Its Harley who provides the way in by calling up her old buddy King Shark. :p
Yeah I'm gonna say this whole thing is a "Let them fight" excuse to have DC's all action girl squad have a fun tango against DC's premiere female superhero and her famous society of action girls.
Like how a series could contrive a reason to have Batman act way antagonistic to drum up an excuse to have a hero vs Batman fight scene.
[QUOTE=Gaius;6610745]Black Canary: There's this thread on the island so dangerous not even Wonder Woman could handle it.
Also Black Canary: To deal with this threat, I'll need a failed physiatrist who swings a baseball bat.[/QUOTE]
In her defense, she also recruits Barda who is comparable to Diana.
[QUOTE=Mantis-Ray;6610828]To add to that Canary actually had no idea or plan of how to actually get on the island. Its Harley who provides the way in by calling up her old buddy King Shark. :p
Yeah I'm gonna say this whole thing is a "Let them fight" excuse to have DC's all action girl squad have a fun tango against DC's premiere female superhero and her famous society of action girls.
Like how a series could contrive a reason to have Batman act way antagonistic to drum up an excuse to have a hero vs Batman fight scene.[/QUOTE]
Don't think it requires much stretch of the imagination for Batman to be written as antagonistic, given how most writers do him.
The stretch is when the person Bruce is being a dick to actually doesn't put up with it. See Hiketeia :p
[QUOTE=Agent Z;6611034]In her defense, she also recruits Barda who is comparable to Diana.[/QUOTE]
Counter point, any good decision Canary makes is negated by "recruited clown lady"
[QUOTE=Agent Z;6611034]In her defense, she also recruits [B]Barda who is comparable to Diana.[/B][/QUOTE]
She is not based on feats.
[QUOTE=Gaius;6610745]Black Canary: There's this threat on the island so dangerous not even Wonder Woman could handle it.
Also Black Canary: To deal with this threat, I'll need a failed physiatrist who swings a baseball bat.[/QUOTE]
Recruiting Harley is actually Cass Cain's idea. She suggests it because Harley's unpredictability makes her an asset and she already earned her place in issue #2.
I actually like Harley in this iteration of the Birds. Kelly Thompson's Dinah is much more serious and no-nonsense than, say, Gail Simone's, so they need someone there to provide some levity and she hasn't been used in excess. Plus they have plans to switch up the roster in each arc so she won't be there forever.
[QUOTE=WonderLight789;6611110]She is not based on feats.[/QUOTE]
She shows up in, like, one book a year. When are they supposed to give her feats?
She's one of the New Gods and was a member of Darkseid's guard - everyone knows she's supposed to be one DC's biggest female heavy hitters. She should absolutely be strong enough to give Diana (or Superman, for that matter) some trouble.
I'm pretty sure Diana and Barda fought to a draw at least once.
I get that Harley is popular (groan), but the reasoning behind the new BOP team lineup is wonky AF. I remember some people on Twitter asking the creative staff behind the book why the team was all white (except for Cain, whose face you cannot even see), and the team's response being [I]kinda dance-around-the-subject[/I]ish. And they certainly tried to avoid the whole "why HQ?" thing. I bet HQ will be the BOP's Batman analogue (comes up with brilliant plans and ends up saving the day, despite all the heavy hitters and smart people on the team).
[QUOTE=WonderLight789;6611110]She is not based on feats.[/QUOTE]
I think that it's been well established across the DC universe that Barda is one of the very few DC super women (alongside Supergirl, Pee Gee, and Maxima) that can take on Wonder Woman.
[QUOTE=bardkeep;6611164]Recruiting Harley is actually Cass Cain's idea. She suggests it because Harley's unpredictability makes her an asset and she already earned her place in issue #2.
I actually like Harley in this iteration of the Birds. Kelly Thompson's Dinah is much more serious and no-nonsense than, say, Gail Simone's, so they need someone there to provide some levity and she hasn't been used in excess. Plus they have plans to switch up the roster in each arc so she won't be there forever.[/QUOTE]
My problem is more that Dinah herself outright said "Yo we need a wildcard, someone unpredictable."
And I'm like "Dinah you are planning a delicate heist to save the life of a loved one, why the hell would you risk it by bringing in someone you can't trust?"
See my problem isn't Harley joining necessarily, I just find the constant "We need an unpredictable psychopath" reason just nonsensical. Its Always Sunny in Philadelphia had a hilarious bit where they deride the concept of a wildcard and pointed out how self-sabotaging such a character would actually be in a heist. :p
[QUOTE=bardkeep;6611164]Recruiting Harley is actually Cass Cain's idea. She suggests it because Harley's unpredictability makes her an asset and she already earned her place in issue #2.
I actually like Harley in this iteration of the Birds. Kelly Thompson's Dinah is much more serious and no-nonsense than, say, Gail Simone's, so they need someone there to provide some levity and she hasn't been used in excess. Plus they have plans to switch up the roster in each arc so she won't be there forever.
She shows up in, like, one book a year. When are they supposed to give her feats?
She's one of the New Gods and was a member of Darkseid's guard - everyone knows she's supposed to be one DC's biggest female heavy hitters. She should absolutely be strong enough to give Diana (or Superman, for that matter) some trouble.[/QUOTE]
big barda has been around for decades. And has never shown any big feats that i can remember. Yet she is supposed to be WW level basedn on scaling only? This is the same failed logic that never helps WW to be considered Superman level. Performances are far more important than lipservice.
[QUOTE=Agent Z;6611173]I'm pretty sure Diana and Barda fought to a draw at least once.[/QUOTE]
Not a fight. Just one training session. How is that enough proof of barda's overall power level?
Out of the two and a half times I can think of, Diana has beaten Barda when they've fought.
The team's realistic reluctance to kill Amazons was touching, but Dinah needed a better plan. I don't care what trumped-up excuses Thompson came up with, there's no real reason Not to contact Diana and or the Amazons before sneaking onto Themyscira, especially when the Amazons are in potential danger themselves and releasing Sin would be to their benefit. It didn't make sense to me, but I am enjoying Dawn of DC's interconnectivity and wonder what Constantine is taking to Ollie.
Well, I guess we'll see how the inevitable confrontation with Diana goes.
[QUOTE=Frontier;6611709]Well, I guess we'll see how the inevitable confrontation with Diana goes.[/QUOTE]
One idea comes to my mind.....
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXKLEfAO81g[/url]
Ok, it's probably not that....
I always thought Big Barda had strength along the lines of Donna and a fighting skill between Donna and Diana. But I could be wrong....
Okay, this is something that's been bugging me for some time now. I've seen a few comments here and there about how Diana's chief flaw is that she is terrible at managing her social life, with fans often citing her frequently changing supporting casts, failed relationships and how little Donna and Cassie appear in her main book.
But one that really bothers me is people blaming Vanessa being tortured and brainwashed on Diana. Let's leave aside that this "flaw" is really a behind-the-scenes issue, Vanessa was in college and wasn't living with Diana. They tried to keep in contact as best as they could but they had their own lives and the last Diana heard from Vanessa, she was doing fine. Why would Vanessa becoming Silver Swan be Diana's fault?
I guess the argument is that Diana moved into a young, innocent girl's life and her house and inadvertently brought with her demons and witches and psychos who wanted to torture those closest to Wonder Woman. Like her and her mother.
Nessie was directly targeted by Decay and Dr Psycho before she finished High School. That's....intense. And meanwhile Diana called her sister and said she loved her and brought her to Paradise and made her into a minor celebrity of sorts, as Diana's young BFF.
And then she disappeared from her life. Obviously that was BTS stuff, but still...its canon. I think it must have been hugely confusing having that intense a friendship for a young person. Nessie would have surely needed therapy to process it.
So did Diana drop Nessie off at Circe's doorstep and say "mess her up!" - no. But she unknowingly pulled a kid into a world of supremely dangerous beings and afterwards vanished. That's gonna hurt.
And Perez showed us how terrified Nessie was of losing her mother and Diana like she'd lost her Dad. You'd think Diana would absolutely stay in touch with Nessie so she wouldn't feel used or worry about Diana dying. Or to make sure some crazy villain didn't pop in to hurt her little sister once WW's back was turned.
Another layer worth touching on in that fascinating analysis is that Messner-Loebs run starts us off with Wonder Woman having been marooned in space for several years with nobody even knowing what had happened to her.
She was dead for all intents and purposes.
The Kapatelis family mourned her passing.
We were told that Vanessa spent months sitting in Dianas room waiting for her return and had finally accepted Dianas passing and moved on....When she turned up on their doorstep.
The reason given in that run for Diana moving out was in part because this was very difficult for Vanessa to cope with.
Seems odd to blame Diana for something the villains did that she had no control over. And frankly, it sounds like Diana left because she and Vanessa both thought it was for the best.
[QUOTE=Agent Z;6616228]Seems odd to blame Diana for something the villains did that she had no control over. And frankly, it sounds like Diana left because she and Vanessa both thought it was for the best.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, reminds of those that try to say "WW was losing sight of her mission" to justify the story actions taken in Infinite Crisis.
Or the ever insightful "why doesn't Batman just use his money to solve all Gotham's problems"
Cassie and Vanessa never had any interactions past the Jimenez run, did they?
I don't think they would ever be friends, but after Cassie got preyed upon by the Kryptonian cult when she was vulnerable following Connor's death, I wonder if she would have more empathy for Vanessa being mentally assaulted much more overtly.
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;6616381]Cassie and Vanessa never had any interactions past the Jimenez run, did they?
I don't think they would ever be friends, but after Cassie got preyed upon by the Kryptonian cult when she was vulnerable following Connor's death, I wonder if she would have more empathy for Vanessa being mentally assaulted much more overtly.[/QUOTE]
Just another missed opportunity for character growth.
It’s a situation where two things can both be true simultaneously.
It’s possible Diana neglected Vanessa to some degree by not maintaining a better connection and relationship to her, knowing her personality and personal challenges from their time spent together and history.
It’s also possible that Vanessa interpreted this as abandonment. That’s been an issue for her from losing her father and Julia’s personal relationship with Diana at a pivotal age of her development. Her challenges with insecurity and self-confidence have always been a part of her character. At less healthy moments of mental health, that can lead to anger, depression, animosity, etc. for the person versus approaching the other person to talk about and resolve their feelings. Vulnerability in reality, let alone a superhero reality (ha!), isn’t easy for everyone. Especially someone like Vanessa.
Diana made a mistake. Vanessa made a mistake. She felt rejected and some nasty villains took advantage of that and exploited it past the point of her being able to escape it on her own.
It’s one scenario out of many that could be true when Diana or Vanessa aren’t thought of as all good, all bad, all strong or all weak. They’ve all got nuances to however you describe them that can mess with their sense of self and actions in their relationships.
Well, looks like WW is finally safe from Johns. Now we just need to watch out for Taylor :p
[QUOTE=Psy-lock;6617901]Well, looks like WW is finally safe from Johns. Now we just need to watch out for Taylor :p[/QUOTE]
What happened? He is no longer working with DC?
[QUOTE=WonderLight789;6618045]What happened? He is no longer working with DC?[/QUOTE]
Yeah he left to start his own comic company, Ghost Machine.
He will now be strictly exclusive over there.
Found it~ [url]https://comicbookclublive.com/2023/10/13/geoff-johns-ghost-machine-scott-pilgrim-20th-anniversary-box-set-dc-elseworlds-returns-comic-book-club-news-october-13-2023/[/url]
Looks like he will continue working at DC until his current creative works wrap up and then hes gone. So yeah, no Wonder Woman involvement going forward. I think the only projects he has are the justice society stuff?
Definitely want to take this with a grain of salt because it's not exactly a reputable source (Bleeding Cool, reporting NYCC gossip) but it looks like there's a rumor about DC starting their own spin on the "Ultimate Universe": [url]https://bleedingcool.com/comics/nycc-bar-gossip-dc-ultimate-universe-scott-snyder/[/url]
Got me thinking - if they were going to start an alternate DCU with more creator control and establish a new canon from the ground up, which writer(s) would you like to see in charge of WW?
My picks:
- Kelly Sue DeConnick: Honestly, I'd be thrilled if they just put Historia in the new universe as the canon lore and built everything out from there.
- Phil Jimenez: An obvious choice for a reason - he's sort of like the Mark Waid of WW, though his approach is much more academic. I think he'd take an interesting mix of elements from Pre- and Post-Crisis, lean into the queerness of her world (in the political sense that he often uses it, not just the sexual orientation sense), and make something cool and unique that felt distinct from main continuity but still felt familiar.
- Steve Orlando: Tbh I think he'd take a very similar approach to Phil Jimenez but he's a much more realistic choice.
- Gail Simone: I actually think she's a very likely contender because of the 3 working writers most closely associated with Diana (her, Rucka, Jimenez), she's the only one I could definitely see writing a new DC ongoing or maxi-series. I think she'd very much go to the Perez roots rather than doing something brand new like Jimenez or Orlando would, but she'd put a fun spin on things as she always does and I think she'd do an amazing job setting up a strong supporting cast and foundation.
Only KSD interests me because she hasn’t written a “proper” WW focused story, but none of the rest should do it. For a new take you should get a writer who has never written Diana in a solo capacity before and the best choices for that are both named Kelly amusingly enough: KSD and Kelly Thompson.
[QUOTE=Vordan;6618660]Only KSD interests me because she hasn’t written a “proper” WW focused story, but none of the rest should do it. For a new take you should get a writer who has never written Diana in a solo capacity before and the best choices for that are both named Kelly amusingly enough: KSD and Kelly Thompson.[/QUOTE]
I think Thompson might be pretty likely since Wonder Woman is one of her favorite characters, she just got done writing Marvel's "premier" female Superhero, and it wouldn't get in the way of King's run.
[QUOTE=Frontier;6618666]I think Thompson might be pretty likely since Wonder Woman is one of her favorite characters, she just got done writing Marvel's "premier" female Superhero, and it wouldn't get in the way of King's run.[/QUOTE]
That’s why I mentioned her. She successfully got Carol’s solo book to 50 issues without relaunches, she is a Diana fan, and she’s a woman. Also she likely wants the job whereas KSD has said she doesn’t want to write a WW book
[QUOTE=Vordan;6618660]Only KSD interests me because she hasn’t written a “proper” WW focused story, but none of the rest should do it. For a new take you should get a writer who has never written Diana in a solo capacity before and the best choices for that are both named Kelly amusingly enough: KSD and Kelly Thompson.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I definitely understand wanting new blood. I'd absolutely love to see Kelly Thompson as well and can't wait to see her take on Diana in BOP. Would be great to kick things off with a woman, plus she's one of the few active writers out there regardless of gender who's a big talent with a lot of hype [I]and[/I] an outspoken WW fan.
An all-women creative dream team for me would be Kelly Thompson, Bilquis Evely, and Jordie Bellaire, though I get why people would want an artist who hasn't pencilled the ongoing before.
[QUOTE=bardkeep;6618654]Definitely want to take this with a grain of salt because it's not exactly a reputable source (Bleeding Cool, reporting NYCC gossip) but it looks like there's a rumor about DC starting their own spin on the "Ultimate Universe": [url]https://bleedingcool.com/comics/nycc-bar-gossip-dc-ultimate-universe-scott-snyder/[/url]
Got me thinking - if they were going to start an alternate DCU with more creator control and establish a new canon from the ground up, which writer(s) would you like to see in charge of WW?
My picks:
- Kelly Sue DeConnick: Honestly, I'd be thrilled if they just put Historia in the new universe as the canon lore and built everything out from there.
- Phil Jimenez: An obvious choice for a reason - he's sort of like the Mark Waid of WW, though his approach is much more academic. I think he'd take an interesting mix of elements from Pre- and Post-Crisis, lean into the queerness of her world (in the political sense that he often uses it, not just the sexual orientation sense), and make something cool and unique that felt distinct from main continuity but still felt familiar.
- Steve Orlando: Tbh I think he'd take a very similar approach to Phil Jimenez but he's a much more realistic choice.
- Gail Simone: I actually think she's a very likely contender because of the 3 working writers most closely associated with Diana (her, Rucka, Jimenez), she's the only one I could definitely see writing a new DC ongoing or maxi-series. I think she'd very much go to the Perez roots rather than doing something brand new like Jimenez or Orlando would, but she'd put a fun spin on things as she always does and I think she'd do an amazing job setting up a strong supporting cast and foundation.[/QUOTE]
Hmm, Simone would be interesting. Being able to a WW book that didn't have to deal with the status quo left by bad events. I enjoyed that Conan crossover she did did for that reason.
Think DeConnick is unlikely, though maybe she'd be tempted by being able to set the ground for WW how she'd want it done.
Kelly Thompson maybe for someone who hasn't written WW before (at leas that I'm aware of).