Wonder Woman - General Discussion

[QUOTE=Agent Z;6134182]Since they do it after him getting violent first and trying to gamble with her and Billy's lives. Or is the issue that you think Diana can't control her strength to the point she'd kill Bruce?[/quote]
Control her strength? She's already doing what we call police brutality


[Quote]
Vixen's anger issues were a result of her powers affecting her due to the animal instincts of the creatures channeled overwhelming her. The worst it got was killing a guy who murdered her friends and she immediately felt guilty about it. Her anger issues were only a thing for a short while in the Suicide Squad which had far worse people and pretty much disappeared after that.
[/quote]

Her very first appearance in the 70s with Superman had her being shocked at how much she lost control due to anger. Her justice league adventures in the early 2000s were about the same thing. It doesn't seem like you've read much with Vixen.
[Quote]
As for Power Girl starting out gentle, one of her first appearances had her calling a guy a chauvinist pig for giving her a Superman symbol as a gesture of friendliness.
[/quote]
So are you agreeing or disagreeing that Power Girl is often prone to getting pissed off and being hard mean and willing to put people down if they disrespect her? Seems like you were making the opposite argument you are making now. This feels like you're being contrarian.
[Quote]
Why are you holding Diana to a different standard than Bruce if you admit he's done worse. And what does he need empowerment from her for? The guy's already one of the founders of the Justice League and one of the richest people on the planet. Empowerment is completely irrelevant in this situation where Diana is trying to save someone's life and Bruce is only making it unnecessarily difficult. If Bruce is an egotist, then maybe a little humiliation is needed to take him down a peg or two.[/quote]

Bruce does pften humiliate people, I wouldn't expect anything more from him than that. He isn't a conniving sadistic abuser. He is often an a-hole, sometimes a noble hero that believes in redemption even for criminals, and id always a superhero in the JLA that Diana has teamed up with time and time again to save the world. She clearly understands him to be acting for what he thinks is justice and he isn't a serial killer abuser. He's the jerk and her adversary, that's it.



[Quote]
Oh yeah, because humiliating someone is so much worse than scaring them with the threat of death.
[/quote]
Worse? Who the hell is talking about which is worse? I'm talking about which one breaks her values. One does, one doesn't. A honorable knight can scare an enemy, kill him even. But he doesn't humiliate an adversary fighting for a just cause even if they are on opposite sides.

[Quote]
Everyone has dignity. [/quote]
The joker and Dr Psycho are rapists and serial killers. I agree that even a-holes deserve dignity, but rapists and serial killers don't. Diana does have limits to what she will accept of others, and while being a rapist and serial killer does cross those limits, being an a-hole doesn't. She wouldn't do police brutality on a narcissistic lawyer, but she would do it to a sadistic sex criminal


[Quote]
1) If it is out of character for Diana to brutally humiliate Bruce, it is equally out of character for her to brutally humiliate the Joker.[/quote]

No it isn't
[Quote]
2) So now what she's doing to the Joker is humiliation? Please pick a lane here.[/quote] she certainly would be willing to brutally humiliate the sadistic and perverse Joker when he's trying to kill many people, but in this case she didn't even humiliate him. Scarring a baby isn't the same thing as spitting on his face and rubbing their face in wet dirt while ripping their clothes. I don't understand how you fail to see that regardless of which is worse, Diana's values as an honorable knight permit one thing but don't permit the other. And that Humiliation and Force aren't the same thing.

[Quote]
3) There is no such thing as "murder in self-defense". I won't even go into how Bruce has treated people with much more blood on their hands with kid gloves.[/quote]
Hum, there absolutely is such a thing as murder in self defense. It's why you can legally kill someone that's trying to kill you if you have no other option. And isn't that why people here are rightfully on the side of Diana? Because she was defending a woman that killed a man in self defense? Which is in fact moral.

You really need to pick a lane here. Your belief seems to be that Diana doing police brutality is a moment to be celebrated, but your arguments are sometimes for and sometimes against this, because your biggest driving force seems to be being a contrarian to whichever thing I say, even when you yourself go against the notion that the moment deserves to be celebrated.

[QUOTE=Agent Z;6134182]
Rucka doesn't attribute Diana becoming a Star Sapphire to her love for Bruce. He attributes it to her love for everyone.[/QUOTE]


After Wondergirl and Hippolyta try to appeal to Diana and fail Bruce comes in and does this:

[IMG]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/RPR8hS_JHvydd565Pl2sTRK4hbGLPMWOqjnD4yPn1q3mLj5k0EQy62oW2HgZHjxP_YL-25Fn5YZH=s1600[/IMG]

[Img]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/q4qh1L2OyL8kQYteTxrrk5gh-wst2uL4TRsNWsV6VqOZONUieLekWGKRRx0Z1bN6YPoMOkPOXmZG=s1600[/img]

[QUOTE=Agent Z;6134309]How the hell did Snyder come into this conversation? We were talking about the Hiketeia.[/QUOTE]

HestiasHearth is arguing that what you like about Wonder Woman is her being a violent warrior with a sword, so you don't think she should act with the values of an honorable knight

(Btw thank you HestiasHearth)

[QUOTE=Alpha;6134351]HestiasHearth is arguing that what you like about Wonder Woman is her being a violent warrior with a sword, so you don't think she should act with the values of an honorable knight[/QUOTE]

Exactly. And like I wrote earlier, I am done "arguing" with people who love the name "Wonder Woman" being given to that generic, blood-thirsty archetype that is so beloved among so many Snyder fans. The more violent and "badass" a superhero is, the more likely they will be favored by Snyderfandom. Let them enjoy that if they want. As far as I am concerned, that "warrior woman with a chip on her shoulder and a taste for blood" will always be a Wonder-Woman-In-Name-Only.

[QUOTE=Alpha;6134351](Btw thank you HestiasHearth)[/QUOTE]

:)

[QUOTE=Alpha;6134325]Control her strength? She's already doing what we call police brutality[/QUOTE]

Please stop demeaning this term by calling it that. Police brutality has an established meaning which Diana's actions don't even qualify for since she isn't a police officer (and neither is Bruce).


[QUOTE]Her very first appearance in the 70s with Superman had her being shocked at how much she lost control due to anger. Her justice league adventures in the early 2000s were about the same thing. It doesn't seem like you've read much with Vixen.[/QUOTE]

Vixen first appeared in Action Comics #521 in 1981, not the 70s. And Superman never makes any comment about her having anger issues there. I don't recall her having any such problem in the 2000s, no more than any other superhero at least.

[QUOTE]
So are you agreeing or disagreeing that Power Girl is often prone to getting pissed off and being hard mean and willing to put people down if they disrespect her? Seems like you were making the opposite argument you are making now. This feels like you're being contrarian.[/QUOTE]

My point ultimately is that Karen and Diana aren't all that different in terms of approach. I just pointed out that Karen was never really "gentle" when she started out.


[QUOTE] He isn't a conniving sadistic abuser.[/QUOTE]
Multiple instances in his own history say otherwise.

[QUOTE]He is often an a-hole, sometimes a noble hero that believes in redemption even for criminals, and id always a superhero in the JLA that Diana has teamed up with time and time again to save the world. She clearly understands him to be acting for what he thinks is justice and he isn't a serial killer abuser. He's the jerk and her adversary, that's it. [/QUOTE]

And she treated him as she would a jerk and adversary. It seems like you're the one being a contrarian here.




[QUOTE]Worse? Who the hell is talking about which is worse? I'm talking about which one breaks her values. One does, one doesn't. A honorable knight can scare an enemy, kill him even. But he doesn't humiliate an adversary fighting for a just cause even if they are on opposite sides.[/QUOTE]

An honorable person doesn't go out of their to scare someone when they can quickly neutralize them. And yes, which one is worse is relevant here when we are talking about Diana's values. Bruce might go out of his way to scare people but Diana generally does not.


[QUOTE]The joker and Dr Psycho are rapists and serial killers. I agree that even a-holes deserve dignity, but rapists and serial killers don't. Diana does have limits to what she will accept of others, and while being a rapist and serial killer does cross those limits, being an a-hole doesn't. She wouldn't do police brutality on a narcissistic lawyer, but she would do it to a sadistic sex criminal[/QUOTE]

Bruce wasn't just being an asshole. He was relentlessly pursuing a woman whose crime amounted to killing the men who raped, abused and drove her sister to suicide and even after learning that her life was in danger, chose to gamble with her life. This is a man who has gone out of his way to protect Selina Kyle or turn a blind eye to her crimes, including killing someone, just because of their relationship. Meanwhile, he gets on Diana's case for killing Max Lord.

There's being an asshole and then there's being Bruce Wayne.

[QUOTE]No it isn't
she certainly would be willing to brutally humiliate the sadistic and perverse Joker when he's trying to kill many people, but in this case she didn't even humiliate him. Scarring a baby isn't the same thing as spitting on his face and rubbing their face in wet dirt while ripping their clothes.[/QUOTE]
Has it ever occurred to you that being terrified can also be a source of humiliation?

[QUOTE]And that Humiliation and Force aren't the same thing.[/QUOTE]

Seeing as how the premise of your argument is that Diana was humiliating Bruce by forcing him down, I'm wondering if you understand this yourself.


[QUOTE]Hum, there absolutely is such a thing as murder in self defense. It's why you can legally kill someone that's trying to kill you if you have no other option. And isn't that why people here are rightfully on the side of Diana? Because she was defending a woman that killed a man in self defense? Which is in fact moral. [/QUOTE]

You cannot murder someone in self defense. Murder is the premediated killing of another person. Self defense is not premediated. And the reason Bruce was after Danielle (her name isn't Billy, I don't know why I made that mistake) was because she had murdered the men who sold her sister into sex trafficking resulting in her death. She was avenging her sister because no one, not the police and certainly not Batman cared about her.

I do find it odd that you are willing to give Batman a pass when you think he's pursuing someone who killed a person in self defense.

[QUOTE]You really need to pick a lane here. Your belief seems to be that Diana doing police brutality is a moment to be celebrated, but your arguments are sometimes for and sometimes against this, because your biggest driving force seems to be being a contrarian to whichever thing I say, even when you yourself go against the notion that the moment deserves to be celebrated.[/QUOTE]

Given how often you've disagreed with people on this forum, I'm not sure you're in a position to be calling me a contrarian. And I haven't contradicted myself as I have maintained that this moment is not something for people to complain about.

[QUOTE=Alpha;6134351]HestiasHearth is arguing that what you like about Wonder Woman is her being a violent warrior with a sword, so you don't think she should act with the values of an honorable knight

(Btw thank you HestiasHearth)[/QUOTE]

Then they are making a strawman since I never said such a thing. And bringing up Snyder is completely uncalled for since the story we are arguing about wasn't even written by him. Diana in The Hiketeia doesn't even act the way they accuse Snyder of portraying Diana.

[QUOTE=Alpha;6134339]After Wondergirl and Hippolyta try to appeal to Diana and fail Bruce comes in and does this:

[IMG]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/RPR8hS_JHvydd565Pl2sTRK4hbGLPMWOqjnD4yPn1q3mLj5k0EQy62oW2HgZHjxP_YL-25Fn5YZH=s1600[/IMG]

[Img]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/q4qh1L2OyL8kQYteTxrrk5gh-wst2uL4TRsNWsV6VqOZONUieLekWGKRRx0Z1bN6YPoMOkPOXmZG=s1600[/img][/QUOTE]

The very next page has Aphrodite state that Diana was chosen because she loves everyone.

[IMG]https://i.redd.it/i27jyrow3ri81.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Agent Z;6134383]Please stop demeaning this term by calling it that. Police brutality has an established meaning which Diana's actions don't even qualify for since she isn't a police officer (and neither is Bruce).[/quote]
Diana doesn't have a badge so I guess it isn't police brutality, it's superhero brutality. A superhero doing what we consider to be police brutality when performed by people with badges.

Since the 80s Bruce has often performed vigilante brutality and humiliates criminals in totally undignified ways, though most of the time he does it in the pursuit of murderers. And there are still many stories in the 80s and 90s about Bruce trying to help criminals seek a better path.

Thankfully Diana doesn't stand for this and never did. Thankfully she has the values of a chilvarous and honorable knight. Except in the cover people here love to celebrate, that shows Diana doing everything she stands against.


[Quote]
Vixen first appeared in Action Comics #521 in 1981, not the 70s. And Superman never makes any comment about her having anger issues there. I don't recall her having any such problem in the 2000s, no more than any other superhero at least.[/quote]

Yeah I confused the dates with another character but everything else was right.
This is from DC comics presents 68
[IMG]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/S41kncZv3zORgi_6sh3zG-BbI9YpdOK2Y8O99KAwNnqH4r7FewCVAvNFP-U0eSqV6chkEbFA63mbtZ5_YqGmDyK00UbsG--L34LX4LW0Mlx95FCHB3VsKdPNPQ0TxmCuNd-f-meKuw=s1600[/IMG]

Vixen was always the kind of person that would be too punishing when she got pissed off and then would regret it. She wasn't even in the Suicide Squad yet, and these problems remained after she keft the Squad.

[Quote]
My point ultimately is that Karen and Diana aren't all that different in terms of approach. I just pointed out that Karen was never really "gentle" when she started out. [/quote]

Yes they are. Diana chose to leave paradise for this hard world to empower others. Aside from the Gail Simone run and a few others, she is known to be all about embracing others. She has always made exceptions for rapists and perverse people. You yourself certainly disagree with this since the version of Wonder Woman that you like is the violent warrior (regardless of which universe or medium it is), which is a characterization often disliked in this community.

Karen is a woman that survived the destruction of many worlds and became Power Girl because she admired her cousin. Since coming to earth 1 she became very harsh and gained a bigger instinct to punish others, specially when she is pissed off. This isn't Diana at all. And her goals aren't the same (other than just generally being a superhero)

[Quote]
Multiple instances in his own history say otherwise.[/quote] there you go making statements you don't believe in just to be argumentative. What main earth stories have shown Batman to be called a coniving sadistic abuser (and since I have to be specific, sadism mean enjoying pain, not just being ruthless, and abuser is in a sexula manner like Joker and Dr Psycho)

[Quote]
And she treated him as she would a jerk and adversary. It seems like you're the one being a contrarian here.[/quote] police brutality (superhero brutality) isn't what you do to jerk adversaries like narcissitic lawyers. It's what you do to sadistic sex criminals who don't deserve any human dignity.

[Quote]
An honorable person doesn't go out of their to scare someone when they can quickly neutralize them. And yes, which one is worse is relevant here when we are talking about Diana's values. Bruce might go out of his way to scare people but Diana generally does not.[/quote]

Bruce is often dishonorable (and sometimes quite honorable). Diana isn't. Diana is supposed to be here to show us how to act honorably and be empowered.

[Quote]
Bruce wasn't just being an asshole. He was relentlessly pursuing a woman whose crime amounted to killing the men who raped, abused and drove her sister to suicide and even after learning that her life was in danger, chose to gamble with her life. This is a man who has gone out of his way to protect Selina Kyle or turn a blind eye to her crimes, including killing someone, just because of their relationship. Meanwhile, he gets on Diana's case for killing Max Lord.[/quote]
He wasn't being sadistic, he was being an a-hole with a psycothic and blind pursuit of reductive justice which I find infuriating but not sadistic and abusive, in fact, from his viewpoint it's just.

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Has it ever occurred to you that being terrified can also be a source of humiliation? [/quote]
Has it occuref to you that scarring the joker isn't a form of humiliation?

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Seeing as how the premise of your argument is that Diana was humiliating Bruce by forcing him down, I'm wondering if you understand this yourself.[/quote]

Then what is the difference between force and humiliation? You really don't have an answer?


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I do find it odd that you are willing to give Batman a pass when you think he's pursuing someone who killed a person in self defense.[/quote]

How am I giving him a pass? I said Diana doing that goes aginst her values. Power Girl or Vixen doing it goes perfectly in line with their characterization and is something I would find rightful

[Quote]
Given how often you've disagreed with people on this forum, I'm not sure you're in a position to be calling me a contrarian. And I haven't contradicted myself as I have maintained that this moment is not something for people to complain about.[/QUOTE]

Yes you have. You said Power Girl and Vixen would br just as unwilling to humiliate Batman as Diana is, and then you proceeded to argue why Power Girl would in fact be quite willing, while Vixen wouldn't, simply to be contrarian.

I have often had controversial opinions in this forum. I've also often had popular opinions. I have even had my mind changed by others through discussions in this forum. For example when people convinced me Etta Candy having dark skin doesn't have to be ptpblematic despite her original personality. It was also in this forum that I became aggrieved with Marston's gender essentialism

[QUOTE=Agent Z;6134391]The very next page has Aphrodite state that Diana was chosen because she loves everyone.

[IMG]https://i.redd.it/i27jyrow3ri81.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

"The color ofove for all creation, your color"

How does this change the fact that Wonder Girl and Hippolyta tried to awaken Diana, failed, and the thing that worked was Bruce talking to her and kissing her?


It's still proof that Greg Rucka thought Diana would love Bruce Wayne, which is ridiculous

[QUOTE=Alpha;6133089]
[B]And as I've said multiple times, my jiggest problem isn't that Diana broke all of her values in this sad moment. The thing I can't believe is that fans if this character would celebrate one of the saddest moments of her career.[/b][/QUOTE]

[IMG]https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/017/314/stop_liking_file.jpg[/IMG]

Is that what you say to people that love Wonder Woman in Justice League Unlimited, Wonder Woman in Injustice, and Wonder Woman in Justice League War? (To be clear I'm not one).


I think people celebrating Diana breaking her values is a common critique among fans here. They just like to make a special case for her attacking Batman because of some toxic seek for punishment above her own message

[QUOTE=Alpha;6134549]Is that what you say to people that love Wonder Woman in Justice League Unlimited, Wonder Woman in Injustice, and Wonder Woman in Justice League War? (To be clear I'm not one).


I think people celebrating Diana breaking her values is a common critique among fans here. They just like to make a special case for her attacking Batman because of some toxic seek for punishment above her own message[/QUOTE]

People have explained why it doesn't bother them to you, you just don't like it.

[QUOTE=Gaius;6134570]People have explained why it doesn't bother them to you, you just don't like it.[/QUOTE]

Their explanation is "it's not that bad and Batman deserves it".

I still see something incredibly toxic happening with a character I love. It's part of the growing desire for her to punish other male heroes, which just rips the whole passionate spirut out of the character.

You are free to feel what you feel, doesn't mean I will stop sharing my opinion whenever people post that awful cover

[QUOTE=Alpha;6134598]Their explanation is "it's not that bad and Batman deserves it".
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, and that's really all the explanation one needs to provide. You're not entitled to one in the first place.

Of course I'm not. And your point is? How am I different from from everyone else in this forum?

This will be my final contribution to this fruitless conversation.

[QUOTE=Alpha;6134415]Diana doesn't have a badge so I guess it isn't police brutality, it's superhero brutality. A superhero doing what we consider to be police brutality when performed by people with badges.

Since the 80s Bruce has often performed vigilante brutality and humiliates criminals in totally undignified ways, though most of the time he does it in the pursuit of murderers. And there are still many stories in the 80s and 90s about Bruce trying to help criminals seek a better path.

Thankfully Diana doesn't stand for this and never did. Thankfully she has the values of a chilvarous and honorable knight. Except in the cover people here love to celebrate, that shows Diana doing everything she stands against.[/QUOTE]

I've said it already and will say it again, your response to that cover comes across as misplaced pearl clutching.


[QUOTE]Yes they are. Diana chose to leave paradise for this hard world to empower others. Aside from the Gail Simone run and a few others, she is known to be all about embracing others. She has always made exceptions for rapists and perverse people. You yourself certainly disagree with this since the version of Wonder Woman that you like is the violent warrior (regardless of which universe or medium it is), which is a characterization often disliked in this community.[/QUOTE]

I have repeatedly and consistently criticized the Injustice, DCAU. Kingdom Come and Geoff Johns versions of Diana for being violent thugs at best or villains at worst. Please stop putting words in my mouth and strawmanning me.

I also find it interesting that you think Diana should make exceptions for rapists and abusers, yet don't think that a guy endangering a woman she is protecting solely so he can avenge the deaths of rapists and abusers might also piss her off.

[QUOTE]Karen is a woman that survived the destruction of many worlds and became Power Girl because she admired her cousin. Since coming to earth 1 she became very harsh and gained a bigger instinct to punish others, specially [B]when she is pissed off.[/B] This isn't Diana at all. And her goals aren't the same (other than just generally being a superhero)[/QUOTE]

Emphasis mine. Wanting to punish villains when they are extremely pissed off is actually somethin Karen and Diana have in common. Diana barely stopped herself from killing Circe when the latter brainwashed Vanessa and tried to goad Diana into killing her on live television. That is not the first or last time Diana reacted in that way either.

[QUOTE]there you go making statements you don't believe in just to be argumentative. What main earth stories have shown Batman to be called a coniving sadistic abuser (and since I have to be specific, sadism mean enjoying pain, not just being ruthless, and abuser is in a sexula manner like Joker and Dr Psycho)[/QUOTE]

And there you go moving the goal posts. What does it matter if Bruce's abuse is sexual or not? As if that makes any difference.

As for examples of Bruce's sadism, here's this quote from War Crimes:

"Still, doing it this way does have its compensations. My fists fit so nicely into their guts. And impact meat and bone with perfectly satisfying thumps."


[QUOTE] police brutality (superhero brutality) isn't what you do to jerk adversaries like narcissitic lawyers. It's what you do to sadistic sex criminals who don't deserve any human dignity.[/QUOTE]

Says who?

I'm not sure if you realize this but one of the reasons why police brutality is so unfortunately common is because the people who carry it out make up arbitrary rules about who does or does not deserve it.

[QUOTE]Bruce is often dishonorable (and sometimes quite honorable). Diana isn't. Diana is supposed to be here to show us how to act honorably and be empowered.[/QUOTE]

For someone who's criticized Perez and Jiminez's take on Diana for being "evangelical", you seem to be blowing this one minor moment of supposed imperfection way out of proportion.

[QUOTE]He wasn't being sadistic, he was being an a-hole with a psycothic and blind pursuit of reductive justice which I find infuriating but not sadistic and abusive, in fact, from his viewpoint it's just.[/QUOTE]

You keep trying to excuse Bruce's actions by arguing from his perspective. What the man considers to be just is not always sensible.

[QUOTE]Has it occuref to you that scarring the joker isn't a form of humiliation?[/QUOTE]

Look at the way Diana is mocking and laughing at him in that image. You really want to tell me her goal isn't to humiliate him as well as scare him?



[QUOTE]Then what is the difference between force and humiliation? [/QUOTE]

Humiliation requires an intent to cause shame and embarrassment, and deliberately pokes at the victim's insecurities and fears. If you look back at the Messner-Loebs image I posted, Diana is clearly poking at the Joker's fear of death and obsession with jokes to psychologically tear him down and thus humiliate him.

Terry McGinnis does something similar to the Joker in Return of the Joker but Terry has the excuse of being much more vulnerable to the Joker than Diana and was trying to gain an advantage over an opponent that could and did physically overpower him.



How am I giving him a pass? I said Diana doing that goes aginst her values. Power Girl or Vixen doing it goes perfectly in line with their characterization and is something I would find rightful



[QUOTE]Yes you have. You said Power Girl and Vixen would br just as unwilling to humiliate Batman as Diana is, and then you proceeded to argue why Power Girl would in fact be quite willing, while Vixen wouldn't, simply to be contrarian.[/QUOTE]

I never said such a thing.

[QUOTE=Gaius;6134016]
Apparently it's a reference to an actual Greek myth with Artemis.[/QUOTE]

I mean, we shouldn't be looking to Greek myth for role models when most of them were serial adulterers, murderers, rapists and what haveyou. lol

The most popular one, Heracles, involves a vendetta from a woman scorned waging war on a child over the crime of his parent, driving him mad and murdering an innocent woman and her children (his family) and many,[B] many[/B] transgressions on the part of Heracles himself. I don't need to see Batman mirror that stuff.

Hell, the one I'm thinking of is essentially Batman being so swept up by Diana's beauty as he watches her bathe that he walks out and forces a kiss on her. She slaps him for his trouble, but he straight up was watching a woman shower and sexually assaulted her... And it's not even just any woman, but [B]Wonder Woman[/B]. The face of women in DC Comics. So yeah. Don't care that it's a reference. Superman eating Jon or an older/time displaced Jon bedding an older Lois would be a reference and I don't want to see that shit either.


I know you're not forgiving it, but I really could not stand that moment and won't really allow any sort of backslide to take the onus off Wagner for it. But, sad to say, treating Diana as a hot prize was pretty common in DC until lately. Dare we forget [I]Superman: Distant Fires[/I], (what a waste of beautiful Gil Kane art) in which she's essentially the prize to make Clark and Billy go to war? I wish I could say the list is short, but it's not.

[QUOTE=Agent Z;6134182]

As for Power Girl starting out gentle, one of her first appearances had her calling a guy a chauvinist pig for giving her a Superman symbol as a gesture of friendliness.
[/QUOTE]

And it was fucking awesome. lol

PG is friendly to everyone who treats her with respect. Sylvester was being unintentionally sexist and she didn't sugarcoat it, nor should she. But compare with many other people she met even at the time. She was perfectly kind so long as she was treated with respect.

[QUOTE=Robanker;6134708]I mean, we shouldn't be looking to Greek myth for role models when most of them were serial adulterers, murderers, rapists and what haveyou. lol

The most popular one, Heracles, involves a vendetta from a woman scorned waging war on a child over the crime of his parent, driving him mad and murdering an innocent woman and her children (his family) and many,[B] many[/B] transgressions on the part of Heracles himself. I don't need to see Batman mirror that stuff.

Hell, the one I'm thinking of is essentially Batman being so swept up by Diana's beauty as he watches her bathe that he walks out and forces a kiss on her. She slaps him for his trouble, but he straight up was watching a woman shower and sexually assaulted her... And it's not even just any woman, but [B]Wonder Woman[/B]. The face of women in DC Comics. So yeah. Don't care that it's a reference. Superman eating Jon or an older/time displaced Jon bedding an older Lois would be a reference and I don't want to see that shit either.


I know you're not forgiving it, but I really could not stand that moment and won't really allow any sort of backslide to take the onus off Wagner for it. But, sad to say, treating Diana as a hot prize was pretty common in DC until lately. Dare we forget [I]Superman: Distant Fires[/I], in which she's essentially the prize to make Clark and Billy go to war?[/QUOTE]
Oh, not defending it lol. Just when I read the scene I knew it had to be a reference to something for how out there it was. I think the only WW thing I liked about that story was her not putting up with Bruce's ego. Don't even get me started on Artemis, lol.

But yeah, somewhat ironically fitting it happened in what was one of the first attempts at DC pushing the "Trinity" concept.

[QUOTE=Gaius;6134743]Oh, not defending it lol. Just when I read the scene I knew it had to be a reference to something for how out there it was. I think the only WW thing I liked about that story was her not putting up with Bruce's ego. Don't even get me started on Artemis, lol.

But yeah, somewhat ironically fitting it happened in what was one of the first attempts at DC pushing the "Trinity" concept.[/QUOTE]

Yeah. It was one of the first times I recall they wanted to push Diana as more than a merchandising entity. Well, you know what I mean.

[QUOTE=Agent Z;6134680]This will be my final contribution to this fruitless conversation.
[/quote] You were only arguing because you wanted to. I'm fine either way


[quote]I have repeatedly and consistently criticized the Injustice, DCAU. Kingdom Come and Geoff Johns versions of Diana for being violent thugs at best or villains at worst. Please stop putting words in my mouth and strawmanning me. [/quote]
All right if you say my characterization was wrong then I believe you. I won't accuse you of that again. I apologize.

[Quote]
I also find it interesting that you think Diana should make exceptions for rapists and abusers, yet don't think that a guy endangering a woman she is protecting solely so he can avenge the deaths of rapists and abusers might also piss her off.[/quote]
He wasn't avenging rapists and abusers. He was bringing her to the cops. I disagree with his actions but they weren't evil at all


[quote]
Emphasis mine. Wanting to punish villains when they are extremely pissed off is actually somethin Karen and Diana have in common. Diana barely stopped herself from killing Circe when the latter brainwashed Vanessa and tried to goad Diana into killing her on live television. That is not the first or last time Diana reacted in that way either.[/quote]
Yes, Diana choked Circe and was almost convinced to kill her as Circe repeatedly told her to do. She did that after Circe physically deformed and mentally tortured for however long a fragile young woman Diana loved, and convinced her to attack an entire city and hurt 100s of people. Circe had also turned Superman into a Doomsday and set him on a rampage. And then Circe and Diana had an argument where Circe told her she would never stop. I fully expected Diana to kill her at that moment, and it would be fully justified. Most honorable knights would certainly be willing to do that in that situation.

None of this has to do with Humiliation. Neither Vixen nor Power Girl have the high standards of Diana. They are charactes with great love and certainly great heroes, but they are more than willing to punish others with humiliation if need be because their purpose isn't to empower humanity, it's to protect innocent lives, while Diana's purpose is both those things. It's the whole reason why she came here.

[quote]
And there you go moving the goal posts. What does it matter if Bruce's abuse is sexual or not? As if that makes any difference.[/quote]
Because most people in the world agree that sexual abuse is the most perverse and undignified form of abuse. People get far more angry when a domestic rapist moves into their neighborhood than they do about a domestic abuser. Maybe you don't see it that way, but I think Diana would certainly feel thus since the beginning of the amazons tragedy (specially since Perez) is Hercules raping Hippolyta. But again, maybe you see things differently in which case I can't really convince you to change your mind and that's fine.

[quote]As for examples of Bruce's sadism, here's this quote from War Crimes:
[quote]
"Still, doing it this way does have its compensations. My fists fit so nicely into their guts. And impact meat and bone with perfectly satisfying thumps."
[/quote][/quote]
War Crimes? Did you seriously pick War Crimes? That and War Games are probably the most hated Batman stories based solely on his characterization. That's like saying the Justice League are immoral because of Identity Crisis, or that Wally West is a psycopath because of Heroes in Crisis, or that Wonder Woman hates women after reading Wonder Woman 203 (the famous quote "I'm not a joiner. I wouldn't fit with your group. In most cases, I don't even like women"). Batman sure is sadistic there I totally agree. And everybody concurs that it's terribly written and that Bruce would never do what he does in those two stories.

[quote]
I'm not sure if you realize this but one of the reasons why police brutality is so unfortunately common is because the people who carry it out make up arbitrary rules about who does or does not deserve it.[/quote] I'm all for instituting a rule that Diana never does something that is so much the opposite of what she stands for, but I'm not gonna be bothered if it happens to Joker or Dr Psycho. Batman is a lot of things, but he isn't Joker or Dr Psycho. I wouldn't want Diana to do that to Angle Man for example. He may be a total villain but she certainly wouldn't do that to him. Throw him on the ground and keep him there, sure. Put her foot on his head while he's lying on concrete in the rain and say "Don't.Get.Up" however is totally something Diana shouldn't do, and if she does it definitely shouldn't be celebrated.

If Diana did that to Batman after seeing what Brother Eye did to the world, and Batman was still stringent on doing more, I think I could understand it. But I still wouldn't get why it would be worthy of celebration for someone like Diana. He's supposed to be a hero and her teammate. Do people celebrate when Bruce beats up grown up Jason Todd in "Under The Red Hood"? Isn't it supposed to be a tragedy?


[quote]
For someone who's criticized Perez and Jiminez's take on Diana for being "evangelical", you seem to be blowing this one minor moment of supposed imperfection way out of proportion.[/quote] okay I guess you have no idea what I mean by "evangelical" and I'm assuming you don't want me to explain (if you do I'd be happy to). All you need to know is that my problem with Perez / Jiminez Diana isn't that she's "too nice". That's not my problem at all.


[quote]
You keep trying to excuse Bruce's actions by arguing from his perspective. What the man considers to be just is not always sensible.[/quote] I'm not arguing whether he's just. I'm arguing that Diana wouldn't do that to someone she knows is trying to the right thing, specially since all he's doing is bringing someone that killed in self defense to the cops.


[quote]
Look at the way Diana is mocking and laughing at him in that image. You really want to tell me her goal isn't to humiliate him as well as scare him?

Humiliation requires an intent to cause shame and embarrassment, and deliberately pokes at the victim's insecurities and fears. If you look back at the Messner-Loebs image I posted, Diana is clearly poking at the Joker's fear of death and obsession with jokes to psychologically tear him down and thus humiliate him.

Terry McGinnis does something similar to the Joker in Return of the Joker but Terry has the excuse of being much more vulnerable to the Joker than Diana and was trying to gain an advantage over an opponent that could and did physically overpower him.[/quote]
I already told you that I totally understand why Diana would be willing to brutally humiliate Joker. He is a sadistic serial killer that has abused many people, physically and sexually. So if you still think that's humiliation, I don't mind.

I don't see how laughing while scaring a suicide bomber with activating their own bomb can be considered humiliation, but I'm don't need to convince you.




[quote]
I never said such a thing.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Agent Z;6132960]And neither Vixen nor Power Girl has ever "brutally humiliated" Bruce either. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Alpha;6133089]
And I'm not sure how familiar you are with Power Girl and Vixen but they both have famous anger issues. Vixen was that way since way back in the 70s, eventually joined the Suicide Squad, and in the late 90s and early 2000s had to deal with her losing control over herself when she was pissed off. Power Girl started out being very gentle, but over the decades came to be known as kind of harsh and intense. Mostly in control though.[/quote]

[QUOTE=Agent Z;6134182]
As for Power Girl starting out gentle, one of her first appearances had her calling a guy a chauvinist pig for giving her a Superman symbol as a gesture of friendliness.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Agent Z;6134383]My point ultimately is that Karen and Diana aren't all that different in terms of approach. I just pointed out that Karen was never really "gentle" when she started out.
[/QUOTE]

Maybe your sequence of arguments makes sense to somebody else but to me you are all over the place. If your point is that Karen wouldn't brutally humiliate someone, than why did it bother you when I described her as being gentle? It has nothing to do with what you're trying to prove, it's just you sidelining your own point, and in my view it's clearly just to be contrarian to whatever I state.

[QUOTE=Robanker;6134708]
I know you're not forgiving it, but I really could not stand that moment and won't really allow any sort of backslide to take the onus off Wagner for it. But, sad to say, treating Diana as a hot prize was pretty common in DC until lately. Dare we forget [I]Superman: Distant Fires[/I], (what a waste of beautiful Gil Kane art) in which she's essentially the prize to make Clark and Billy go to war? I wish I could say the list is short, but it's not.
[/QUOTE]

Wait wtf? I've never heard of that story, and clearly there's a reason why. That plot sounds disgusting.But the art really does seem stunning

Not that it matters, but is Billy still a kid in that story?

[QUOTE=Alpha;6134831]Wait wtf? I've never heard of that story, and clearly there's a reason why. That plot sounds disgusting.But the art really does seem stunning

Not that it matters, but is Billy still a kid in that story?[/QUOTE]

It [I]does[/I] matter because Diana explicitly had a relationship with him. He's a grown man, having lost the powers. But he's Billy in name only. He's honestly served just as poorly as she is, and she's basically a trophy wife who is killed to fuel a battle between the two meat heads of the story. It's very, very bad. Diana, awful though her treatment was, at least got to die a good person if memory serves. Billy is an absolute monster, refuting everything Captain Marvel stands for all in the name of making a good baddie for Superman to punch after killing his wife. He's just a big ol' jackass who treats Diana like a broodmare. It's the fucking worst.

Contrast with the art which is so, so good. It's a very polished turd, much like [I]The Human Target[/I], which makes me weep with how lovely those interiors are.

I've met some people who like it mostly because Superman gets to be a hero throughout and, well, goddamn it's purdy. But make no mistake, it's ugly. A lot of Elseworlds books where, and sadly the people in charge of some of the Superman projects seemed to have some real problems with women at the time.

[I]Superman: Kal[/I] is another Elseworlds with art I'll debase myself for (it's Jose Luis Garcia-Lopes doing interiors on a Medieval Superman book!) doesn't treat Lois particularly well either. It's a shame that so many Superman elseworlds involve killing his love interest, but them's the breaks. I guess it could be worse. They could keep dying in actual continuity like poor Steve Trevor. He may as well be the new Resurrection Man. lol

Joelle Jones working on something

[url]https://www.instagram.com/p/Cgf2pyALID_/?hl=en[/url]

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/v63f3VC.png?1[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Hypo;6138725]Joelle Jones working on something

[url]https://www.instagram.com/p/Cgf2pyALID_/?hl=en[/url]

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/v63f3VC.png?1[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Does that mean it will come out a year from now?

Cheetahs are some peculiarly built creatures. Their bodies are so huge and powerful yet their heads are teeny tiny!!

[QUOTE=Hypo;6138725]Joelle Jones working on something

[url]https://www.instagram.com/p/Cgf2pyALID_/?hl=en[/url]

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/v63f3VC.png?1[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Beautiful. A very striking image.

At what point though does compassion and empathy become letting toxic people walk all over you?
Diana--particularly Rucka's Diana--has repeatedly demonstrated that she has a line where, if crossed, she will put you on the ground. It takes a lot to push her that far, but it's always been there.

The issue isn't Batman's motives or why he's acting like this. It's how much is Diana supposed to take?
In the [I]Hiketeia[/I], Bruce is always the one who resorts to violence first. He shows no regard for Diana's position or perspective--even after he knows what the Hiketeia is and what the consequences of it are--and is, at the very least, highly disrespectful and dismissive.

Diana isn't Jesus. For all her compassion and love, 'turn the other cheek' has never been her philosophy. By the point it happens in the story, it's become clear Bruce will only respond to "Don't. Get. Up."
The police brutality analogy doesn't fly because Bruce isn't the robber in this scenario--he's another cop. He's [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javert"]Javert[/URL].

No, it's not actually good things have escalated to that point. Rucka himself described the story as a tragedy, and part of it is these allies and...erm, ""friends""...come to blows over their beliefs.
But you ask why fans celebrate it...well, it's because Batman's a sanctimonious dick regardless of the story's context. On a meta level, it's Diana punching up, not down.

Where the Max Lord neck snap gets paraded around by certain fans as proof that Diana's a badass because she kills people, the image of Wonder Woman stepping on Bruce's head merely demonstrates she won't take his s***.
Neither is necessarily a truly accurate representation of her character, but one is definitely preferable to the other. Because Batman's an asshole, and she shouldn't take his s***.

At this moment I think I'll try to refrain from furthering the discussion very much

But Diana has the lasso of truth which is made to restrain others, she is far stronger than Bruce so it's not even a contest on whether he can get up. The moment she puts the foot on top of him he ain't getting up, so the "Don't Get Up" is either her mocking him while he is already without any dignity, fully humiliated, or she wants him to think she will break something if he could get up, which he can't.
And put the boot on his back, not on his head.

And if we have to go through all of this, at least don't celebrate it as if it's Karmic Justice. These are toxic fan wars that go against the nature of Wonder Woman's entire reason to be here and why she is important as a character. She isn't a revenge fantasy.

But if what I already said isn’t enough to convince you that we shouldn't celebrate that image, then I doubt anything will. I'll still stand against it in the Future and make at least one comment but of course tgese discussions will go nowhere until everyone has enough things to get joy out of this Wonderverse.

Diana taking the wind out of Bruce's sails is pretty satisfying considering what an asshole he can be, particularly during that period.

Problem is, Rucka is one of the big offenders of early 2000s Bat Jerk. In the context of the story, I have no issues with how Diana reacts to him or treats him. But Batman chasing down Danielle that relentlessly seems ooc to begin with. With all the problems he regularly faces in Gotham, I can't see him viewing her as a priority to chase down. Especially because he would know who her victims were and what they did. That's a "I will let the authorities deal with this one while I deal with the Joker's billionth escape" scenario if there ever was one. And he personally wouldn't lose much sleep if she was never caught.

[QUOTE=Hypo;6138725]Joelle Jones working on something

[url]https://www.instagram.com/p/Cgf2pyALID_/?hl=en[/url]

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/v63f3VC.png?1[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Probably a variant. Looks like Diana's hair there in the bottom left.


[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;6139202]Diana taking the wind out of Bruce's sails is pretty satisfying considering what an asshole he can be, particularly during that period.

Problem is, Rucka is one of the big offenders of early 2000s Bat Jerk. In the context of the story, I have no issues with how Diana reacts to him or treats him. But Batman chasing down Danielle that relentlessly seems ooc to begin with. With all the problems he regularly faces in Gotham, I can't see him viewing her as a priority to chase down. Especially because he would know who her victims were and what they did. That's a "I will let the authorities deal with this one while I deal with the Joker's billionth escape" scenario if there ever was one. And he personally wouldn't lose much sleep if she was never caught.[/QUOTE]

Idk, I've only read some of Rucka's Batman stuff but from what I've read even Rucka amplified Bruce's negative qualities in the story. Though maybe that view would change if I read more of his Batman/Gotham Central stuff.

Like I said, I think Bruce is better viewed how Superman is used in DKR. YMMV on how fair that is though.

[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;6139202]Diana taking the wind out of Bruce's sails is pretty satisfying considering what an asshole he can be, particularly during that period.
[/QUOTE]

This is a little more than just "taking the wind out of Bruce's sails but whatever".

I do wonder tho, if this same thing happened with Blue Beetle "and he was doing the exact same thing as Bruce" would it be okay? What if Black Canary was doing the same thing Bruce did?

If Canary and Blue Beetle were acting like how Bruce did in the story then yes, subduing them the same way wouldn't be a problem.

There are better examples of 'Warrior Woman' moments to nitpick compared to Hiketiea which is more nuanced. Diana only did that only after Bruce refused to back down and diplomacy didn't work. It was a justified response to escalation.

Just to double down on how much Batman was a jerk in the [I]The Hiketiea[/I], he could have tipped NY and Gotham Police to the location of Danielle, but he took her escaping him twice personally. And he was probably being paranoid that Diana would pull some Ambassador, US Embassy asylum stuff that I don’t know the full details of and potentially have Danielle go free and he didn’t want to take that risk. So it just makes him seem more paranoid.

As mentioned he knew why Danielle was killing those people, what a Hiketiea is and the consequences of making Diana break her oath. And with magic involved, he didn’t think that maybe Danielle was manipulated in some way? Which turns out to be the case.

I think I agree with [B][COLOR="#800000"]Gaius[/COLOR][/B] that the story probably would have been better if it was revealed that the furies where messing with Batman too, and to amplifying his worst traits. Because he’s seriously so dismissive, hypocritical and obsessive that it’s not hard to believe at all.

[QUOTE=Gaius;6139289]PIdk, I've only read some of Rucka's Batman stuff but from what I've read even Rucka amplified Bruce's negative qualities in the story. Though maybe that view would change if I read more of his Batman/Gotham Central stuff.

Like I said, I think Bruce is better viewed how Superman is used in DKR. YMMV on how fair that is though.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, he was more negative than normal, but Murderer/Fugitive and some of the NML stuff had sanctimonious asshole Bruce. As far as Gotham goes, Rucka's great with the Gotham ladies (Renee, Huntress, Oracle, Ivy, etc), some of the cops, and some of the villains, but his Bruce has never been super enjoyable to read. He's kind of the anti-Morrison when it comes with the Trinity: he absolutely nails Diana 99% of the time, but Bruce and Clark are pretty meh.

I do think he was treated better than Supes was in DKR and its sequels (ditto WW in anything Frank Miller writes), but part of that may be due to Hikiteia not being anywhere near as impactful as TDKR. Despite being a better story, IMO.

[QUOTE=Alpha;6139305]This is a little more than just "taking the wind out of Bruce's sails but whatever".

I do wonder tho, if this same thing happened with Blue Beetle "and he was doing the exact same thing as Bruce" would it be okay? What if Black Canary was doing the same thing Bruce did?[/QUOTE]

I doubt it would have happened with Blue Beetle or Black Canary, because when are they ever inclined to act that way?

If they had though, then yeah it would be ok.

So Cheetah could appear in Wonder Girl's annual, interesting

[QUOTE=Hypo;6138725]Joelle Jones working on something

[url]https://www.instagram.com/p/Cgf2pyALID_/?hl=en[/url]

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/v63f3VC.png?1[/IMG][/QUOTE]

By the way, haven't you guys gotten over Hiketeia yet?

[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;6139609]
I doubt it would have happened with Blue Beetle or Black Canary, because when are they ever inclined to act that way?

If they had though, then yeah it would be ok.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=John Venus;6139343]If Canary and Blue Beetle were acting like how Bruce did in the story then yes, subduing them the same way wouldn't be a problem.[/QUOTE]

And you would regularly celebrate that time Wonder Woman put her mountain crushing foot on top of Black Canary's head while she was lying on the ground in raining concrete?

This would be a source of pride?

Because it seems to me that the way people embrace that tragic moment is as some revenge fantasy against Batman. And I have no problem with Power Girl fans havingba revenge fantasy against him, or Vixen fans, but revenge fantasies are everything Diana stands against.

[QUOTE=I'm a Fish;6139443]Just to double down on how much Batman was a jerk in the [I]The Hiketiea[/I], he could have tipped NY and Gotham Police to the location of Danielle, but he took her escaping him twice personally. And he was probably being paranoid that Diana would pull some Ambassador, US Embassy asylum stuff that I don’t know the full details of and potentially have Danielle go free and he didn’t want to take that risk. So it just makes him seem more paranoid.

As mentioned he knew why Danielle was killing those people, what a Hiketiea is and the consequences of making Diana break her oath. And with magic involved, he didn’t think that maybe Danielle was manipulated in some way? Which turns out to be the case.

I think I agree with [B][COLOR="#800000"]Gaius[/COLOR][/B] that the story probably would have been better if it was revealed that the furies where messing with Batman too, and to amplifying his worst traits. Because he’s seriously so dismissive, hypocritical and obsessive that it’s not hard to believe at all.[/QUOTE]
Just imagine all the gas he would have saved with just a phone call.

[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;6139609]Yeah, he was more negative than normal, but Murderer/Fugitive and some of the NML stuff had sanctimonious asshole Bruce. As far as Gotham goes, Rucka's great with the Gotham ladies (Renee, Huntress, Oracle, Ivy, etc), some of the cops, and some of the villains, but his Bruce has never been super enjoyable to read. He's kind of the anti-Morrison when it comes with the Trinity: he absolutely nails Diana 99% of the time, but Bruce and Clark are pretty meh.

I do think he was treated better than Supes was in DKR and its sequels (ditto WW in anything Frank Miller writes), but part of that may be due to Hikiteia not being anywhere near as impactful as TDKR. Despite being a better story, IMO.
[/QUOTE]

Oh no, definitely. Only time I see the story pop up out of WW-circles is usually when people want to troll Batgod fans.

[QUOTE=Alpha;6139683]And you would regularly celebrate that time Wonder Woman put her mountain crushing foot on top of Black Canary's head while she was lying on the ground in raining concrete?

This would be a source of pride?

Because it seems to me that the way people embrace that tragic moment is as some revenge fantasy against Batman. And I have no problem with Power Girl fans havingba revenge fantasy against him, or Vixen fans, but revenge fantasies are everything Diana stands against.[/QUOTE]

By your logic anytime Diana punches anyone, it's a revenge fantasy.

You're right, she should have just let Batman walk all over her and lose her soul to the Furies.

[QUOTE=John Venus;6139905]By your logic anytime Diana punches anyone, it's a revenge fantasy.[/quote]

In what way did I imply anything of the sort?

[Quote]
You're right, she should have just let Batman walk all over her and lose her soul to the Furies.[/QUOTE]
Use her lasso. That's what it's there for. Put your foot on his back, even that is more in character. And for goodness sake, if you are gonna put your foot on his head as he lies on the ground, just to humiliate him even more than don't say those words "Don't.Get.Up" since you know he has absolutely no way to escape the situation he is in.

It's not because she is a superhero. Plenty of superheroes would still do that. But she is fckng Wonder Woman. She came here for a very clear reason. This is the opposite of ehy she us here. And the only reason why people celebrate it is because they are more interested in the revenge fantasy of Diana humiliating DC's fabourite big Macho Man.

[QUOTE=Alpha;6139683]And you would regularly celebrate that time Wonder Woman put her mountain crushing foot on top of Black Canary's head while she was lying on the ground in raining concrete?

This would be a source of pride?

Because it seems to me that the way people embrace that tragic moment is as some revenge fantasy against Batman. And I have no problem with Power Girl fans havingba revenge fantasy against him, or Vixen fans, but revenge fantasies are everything Diana stands against.[/QUOTE]

Given that [B]The Batman[/B] has one shotted Cheetah who is a villain of Wondys with her [B]mountain crushing foot power[/B], I think Diana used just the right amount of force against [B]The Batman[/B].

It's a wonder to me that you think characters like Diana with her 'mountain crushing power', whether it is her hands or feet, ever can successfully manage the day to day nuances of the world. I mean, when she takes up a glass of water or tries to write something does she not immediately crush them due to her 'mountain crushing power'? Does going to the bathroom to do her business leave crushed toilets?

Most people on this board seem to think that the boot on Batmans face was well deserved and don't mind it. At least not to the extent that you do.