Wonder Woman - General Discussion

[QUOTE=PopQuezy;6154089]" The moderator praised characters like Ares and Circe, and Johnson sighed and said that, when he was working on Dead Earth, he was really bored by Diana’s villains, so he changed them for his story."

Maybe it was just the way it was written, but there was something about the entire write-up that irked me. Unlike Cloonrad who seem to legitimately love the Wonder Woman character [I]and[/I] her world, this write-up seemed like people getting paid to be there. In particular, the part about her villains irked me the most. I put a little quote above, but at a a panel about the "legacy" and "importance" or Wonder Woman, why on earth are you calling her villains boring?

Besides that, some of the article just made me wonder how much time they'd truly spend in Diana's world. While one person mentions reading her comics from the 40s, there was just something very shallow and surface level to the interview. While I liked some of it, mostly these felt like the wrong presenters to be discussing the "legacy" and "importance" of Wonder Woman when they were getting some basic story elements incorrect.[/QUOTE]

Ok then [B][I]revamp them[/I][/B] Johnson, I don’t get why so many writers miss this obvious solution. Dini and Timm didn’t like the original Mr. Freeze so they completely changed him up for the DCAU. You could’ve taken a similar approach for some of WW’s Rogues instead of going for the incredibly boring route of making the Amazons the bad guys again.

[QUOTE=Vordan;6155611]Ok then [B][I]revamp them[/I][/B] Johnson, I don’t get why so many writers miss this obvious solution. Dini and Timm didn’t like the original Mr. Freeze so they completely changed him up for the DCAU. You could’ve taken a similar approach for some of WW’s Rogues instead of going for the incredibly boring route of making the Amazons the bad guys again.[/QUOTE]

[IMG]https://c.tenor.com/J_Hd49Wi5zEAAAAd/tried-nothing.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Walter Simonson;6155592]I was hired by DC to write only those six issues. Phil was getting off the book and Greg was to take over as the writer, but there was going to be six months between the time Phil left and the time Greg could begin writing it. So I was hired to fill that window. Greg had let DC know that he was not going to be using Trevor so I tried writing a story that would, among other things, cover his absence when Greg's issues began and still do it in a dramatic fashion. Whatever I did with Trevor, he wouldn't have been around after my last issue. I enjoyed writing Wonder Woman. I think it would have been fun to write and draw her at some point.[/QUOTE]

Thanks so much, Walt! I really enjoyed your work on WW and the unapologetic way in which you celebrated the prowess of the Amazons and the Wonder Woman's abilities. Hopefully one day you will get to do a long form run with the classical trappings! And thanks so much for the delightful Becca. I hope we see her again

If your POV is that Diana’s villains are “boring,” then my POV is you may not be thinking very creatively about them.

[QUOTE=Walter Simonson;6155592]I was hired by DC to write only those six issues. Phil was getting off the book and Greg was to take over as the writer, but there was going to be six months between the time Phil left and the time Greg could begin writing it. So I was hired to fill that window. Greg had let DC know that he was not going to be using Trevor so I tried writing a story that would, among other things, cover his absence when Greg's issues began and still do it in a dramatic fashion. Whatever I did with Trevor, he wouldn't have been around after my last issue. I enjoyed writing Wonder Woman. I think it would have been fun to write and draw her at some point.[/QUOTE]

My memory of your run might be off, but wasn't your arc one in which you have Diana depowered through most of it? Since you are a writer and this is a honest question, isn't it a cop-out of sorts to take away or depower a very strong hero like Diana because otherwise she would solve the plot that the author is devising too easily?

Sorry if the question offends, but it does seem that this is a common trope among many of the writers that have written arcs for Wonder Woman. Even her latest movie showing had her depowered through most of it.

You know, people have already made the connection/comparison, but [I]DCeased[/I] and [I]DC vs. Vampires[/I] really are the same stories.

Both feature heroes and villains getting slaughtered by and/or turned into horror movie creatures.
Both plots only work if everyone is dumber than a box of rocks.
Both operate on little to no internal logic.
Both are obnoxiously edge-lord.
Both are being milked for all their worth with spin-offs and sequels.
Both take steaming dumps all over Wonder Woman (and many others to be fair, but Diana in particular stands out).

It's like Tynion looked at what Taylor was doing and said, "I can do that. And even dumber! $$$!!"


The only real difference is [I]DC vs. Vampires[/I] is incredibly horny.

[QUOTE=Guy_McNichts;6157880]You know, people have already made the connection/comparison, but [I]DCeased[/I] and [I]DC vs. Vampires[/I] really are the same stories.

Both feature heroes and villains getting slaughtered by and/or turned into horror movie creatures.
Both plots only work if everyone is dumber than a box of rocks.
Both operate on little to no internal logic.
Both are obnoxiously edge-lord.
Both are being milked for all their worth with spin-offs and sequels.
Both take steaming dumps all over Wonder Woman (and many others to be fair, but Diana in particular stands out).

It's like Tynion looked at what Taylor was doing and said, "I can do that. And even dumber! $$$!!"


The only real difference is [I]DC vs. Vampires[/I] is incredibly horny.[/QUOTE]

That's Otto Schmidt for ya.

Never got his appeal--no wait that's wrong, I get his appeal but it's not for me.

I'm admittedly enjoying the Vampire one quite a lot, to be honest. :o

Though its potential when it comes to the use of other characters is admitedly limited by the fact that, from what I've read, Tynion basically build the plot and chose many of the players, he wanted to be a Bat story and there was little that could be changed about that.

At the very least I'm going to give Rosenberg the benefit of the doubt because I thought that, terrible turning scene that is terrible and I'm not going to defend aside, his normal WW felt better than what Taylor writes (at least she didn't default to Warrior Woman archtype and seemed caring, smart and competent to the point the plot had to pull a Diabolus Ex Machina and said "hey, you need to start eating people now"). And the vampire version is entertaining, if underutilized (come on, a vampire Diana is basically a Diana who is also basically Cheetah [cursed with literal bloodthirst and painting smilies on her soul], there's a story in there, where's [I]that[/I] spin-off?).

That being said even as someone who isn't a fan of [I]DCeased[/I] (specially after the last issue), I don't think either are really edgy, if anything, sometimes they look somewhat tame given their respective subject matters.

[QUOTE=Gaius;6157910]That's Otto Schmidt for ya.

Never got his appeal--no wait that's wrong, I get his appeal but it's not for me.[/QUOTE]

What does Otto Schmidt have to do with the quality of the story?

They should hire Otto Schmidt for a WW book.

[QUOTE=John Venus;6158999]They should hire Otto Schmidt for a WW book.[/QUOTE]

That i can definitely agree with

[QUOTE=WonderScott;6156336]If your POV is that Diana’s villains are “boring,” then my POV is you may not be thinking very creatively about them.[/QUOTE]

Honestly, there is no such thing as "boring characters," just unimaginative creators. I mean, they've made Kite-Man work, for goodness' sake!

[QUOTE=Alpha;6159011]That i can definitely agree with[/QUOTE]

Hell yes, his women are literally stunning. That being said, his linework is a bit scratchy and his backgrounds aren't the most detailed, but his figures and posing are quite dynamic. It'd be fun to see what he does on the mainline Wonder book, but perhaps give him a mini with one of our other Wonders to start.

[QUOTE=SonOfBaldwin;6159037]Honestly, there is no such thing as "boring characters," just unimaginative creators. I mean, they've made Kite-Man work, for goodness' sake![/QUOTE]

E x a c t l y !

Diana’s rogues and adversaries can be fascinating and horrifying if you don’t just take them at face value or other limitations many people project on them.

WW & Duke of Deception gets a shoutout in the new League of Their Own series.

[QUOTE=WonderScott;6159299]E x a c t l y !

Diana’s rogues and adversaries can be fascinating and horrifying if you don’t just take them at face value or other limitations many people project on them.[/QUOTE]

I have such a great pitch for The Mask. If I ever get a shot….

[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;6159609]WW & Duke of Deception gets a shoutout in the new League of Their Own series.[/QUOTE]

Man, everything has a show nowadays.

I'm assuming someone was reading a GA Wonder Woman comic.

[QUOTE=Gaius;6159679]Man, everything has a show nowadays.

I'm assuming someone was reading a GA Wonder Woman comic.[/QUOTE]

Is the new ALOTO TV series produced by Warner Bros. Television? If it is, was the show in development/production while WW84 was about to open? it might simply be a case of belated crosspromotional synergy (is that even the right term?)...
In any case, it's always cool to see Diana and one of their villains being mentioned beyond the comics...

[QUOTE=SonOfBaldwin;6159677]I have such a great pitch for The Mask. If I ever get a shot….[/QUOTE]

Pitch it to us! What would you do?

[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;6159609]WW & Duke of Deception gets a shoutout in the new League of Their Own series.[/QUOTE]

Wonder who the writer was.

[QUOTE=John Venus;6160126]Wonder who the writer was.[/QUOTE]

Not sure which episode it's in (I JUST started it) but it may be Abbi Jacobson from Broad City? She's the star and co-showrunner and I assume she wrote at least a few episodes. I hope so because it'd just reinforce my love for her.

Also it's on Amazon Prime so not produced by WB.

[QUOTE=Alpha;6159908]Pitch it to us! What would you do?[/QUOTE]

Once a pitch is out in the world I'm pretty sure they're not allowed to use it in the comics so I don't wanna know!

[QUOTE=SonOfBaldwin;6159677]I have such a great pitch for The Mask. If I ever get a shot….[/QUOTE]

Excellent!

I have character pitch idea that’s a foil for The Mask.

As much as I love seeing Wonder characters interact with Diana, I also enjoy Wonder characters interacting and developing relationships with one another. It makes for a richer world.

Red Hoot Outlaws webtoon with Artemis is pretty good so far.

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/jRo9R59.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/jM0ektP.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=BiteTheBullet;6156379]My memory of your run might be off, but wasn't your arc one in which you have Diana depowered through most of it? Since you are a writer and this is a honest question, isn't it a cop-out of sorts to take away or depower a very strong hero like Diana because otherwise she would solve the plot that the author is devising too easily?

Sorry if the question offends, but it does seem that this is a common trope among many of the writers that have written arcs for Wonder Woman. Even her latest movie showing had her depowered through most of it.[/QUOTE]

Well, I'm not really responsible for the latest movie (which I haven't seen), but I'll take your word for it. :)

Beyond both that and whatever most other writers have done with Diana over the years, I had a fairly limited number of issues to write a story that would smooth the passage between Phil and Greg. The only time I really read Wonder Woman myself was back in the day with the Mike Sekowsky issues from the late 60s. Looked forward to every issue and enjoyed them, especially one that, I think, Woody inked. I suspect that that work was inspired by the Avengers TV show from the 60s - no relation to the Marvel Avengers - and its principal actress, Diana Rigg. Every boy in America had a crush on Diana Rigg back then, including me. A sexy woman who was sexy not only because she was attractive but especially because she was intelligent. So I decided to write my issues as a tribute to all that and based my story on an Aesop's fable, an appropriately Greek source, for inspiration. In case I didn't include it in my story, the fable is The Two Pots. It's about two pots, one of brass and one of clay who try to travel together. I have no idea how many other times Diana was depowered between the Sekowsky run and my own, but I tried to do an honest story that would show case Diana's fire and fortitude in a situation where she was under serious duress, and I stand by that effort. I'm sorry it didn't do it for you, but I really enjoyed tipping my hat to the WW work that I had read and enjoyed. And to Diana Rigg, of course. :cool:

Best/Walter

[QUOTE=Walter Simonson;6162733]Well, I'm not really responsible for the latest movie (which I haven't seen), but I'll take your word for it. :)

Beyond both that and whatever most other writers have done with Diana over the years, I had a fairly limited number of issues to write a story that would smooth the passage between Phil and Greg. The only time I really read Wonder Woman myself was back in the day with the Mike Sekowsky issues from the late 60s. Looked forward to every issue and enjoyed them, especially one that, I think, Woody inked. I suspect that that work was inspired by the Avengers TV show from the 60s - no relation to the Marvel Avengers - and its principal actress, Diana Rigg. Every boy in America had a crush on Diana Rigg back then, including me. A sexy woman who was sexy not only because she was attractive but especially because she was intelligent. So I decided to write my issues as a tribute to all that and based my story on an Aesop's fable, an appropriately Greek source, for inspiration. In case I didn't include it in my story, the fable is The Two Pots. It's about two pots, one of brass and one of clay who try to travel together. I have no idea how many other times Diana was depowered between the Sekowsky run and my own, but I tried to do an honest story that would show case Diana's fire and fortitude in a situation where she was under serious duress, and I stand by that effort. I'm sorry it didn't do it for you, but I really enjoyed tipping my hat to the WW work that I had read and enjoyed. And to Diana Rigg, of course. :cool:

Best/Walter[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the reply!

Oh I remember really enjoying that short run and its bringing back of the 'spinning transformation' power.
I often wondered if the death of Trevor Barnes in that story was a choice on the writers part or a decision made by editorial for clearing the room as things transitioned from Jiminez to Rucka.

[QUOTE=Fuzzy Mittens;6162971]Oh I remember really enjoying that short run and its bringing back of the 'spinning transformation' power.
I often wondered if the death of Trevor Barnes in that story was a choice on the writers part or a decision made by editorial for clearing the room as things transitioned from Jiminez to Rucka.[/QUOTE]

I suppose in some ways, you could say it was a little of both. It wasn't really an editorial decision but both those options factored into my decision to structure the story as i did. :)

[QUOTE=Walter Simonson;6166595]I suppose in some ways, you could say it was a little of both. It wasn't really an editorial decision but both those options factored into my decision to structure the story as i did. :)[/QUOTE]

Thank you very much for clarifying that. ^^

I would also like to add that a favorite moment of mine from that was that short bit wherin Artemis battled the Scylla with a rocket launcher. ;)

[URL="https://www.bigbadtoystore.com/Product/VariationDetails/216127"]Wonder Woman Rebirth Museum Masterline Wonder Woman (Silver Armor Ver.) 1/3 Scale Limited Edition Statue[/URL]

[IMG]https://bbts1.azureedge.net/images/p/full/2022/08/fd349add-6137-4c66-a836-abb3e0f4ce5f.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]https://bbts1.azureedge.net/images/p/full/2022/08/524678b1-98ad-4e2a-b48f-2d702fe69ef6.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Gaius;6171622][URL="https://www.bigbadtoystore.com/Product/VariationDetails/216127"]Wonder Woman Rebirth Museum Masterline Wonder Woman (Silver Armor Ver.) 1/3 Scale Limited Edition Statue[/URL]

[IMG]https://bbts1.azureedge.net/images/p/full/2022/08/fd349add-6137-4c66-a836-abb3e0f4ce5f.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]https://bbts1.azureedge.net/images/p/full/2022/08/524678b1-98ad-4e2a-b48f-2d702fe69ef6.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Oooh, this is beautiful!

On Twitter you often come across people discussing the confessional sequences from [I]Heroes in Crisis[/I]--usually mocking them--and it made me recall the one they gave Wonder Woman. I remember this was discussed when the comic first came out, but I'm curious how people feel about it now.

[IMG]https://i.pinimg.com/originals/db/4b/14/db4b1418487da906d8a5c98cf42db905.jpg[/IMG]

I think there's a germ of an interesting idea here--that Diana is so selfless she doesn't want to burden anyone with her problems. But this weird anecdote about Hippolyta shot with an arrow and Diana hiding in her room just seems...off.

I guess King is suggesting a child being raised by warriors would be somewhat traumatic for her, but that seems to kind of miss the point of Themyscira. It's supposed to be the peaceful paradise that sheltered Diana...not a war-torn land of brutality. I also have to ask how and why Hippolyta was even shot? By who? When?

A lot of the confessional bits from [I]Heroes in Crisis[/I] boil down to:
a) "I really know something about this character & have something insightful for them"
b) "I only THINK I know something about this character"
c) "I know f***-all about this character, so I'll pull something out of my ass"
d) "make a joke"

Diana's feel like Option B.
Like I said, there's something potentially interesting here. But it's an idea I think would be served better by someone with a greater understanding of her character. And I don't think Tom King is that guy.

Not every panel can be as God-Tier as Hal Jordan going "I don't even what will is". :p

I think you're right that was going for some commentary/deconstruction on Diana being raised by a warriors. But like you said, that requires missing the entire point of Themyscira.

King's attempts at writing WW have always left me unimpressed to put it kindly. He had one of the weaker stories in the 80th anniversary issue and his story from his Batman run competes with Tom Taylor and Connor/Palmiotti for worst modern WW story.

What was Connor/Palmiotti's story?

Diana being so selfless that she rarely has time for herself or experiences burn out should be the kind of flaws she has. Not being overly aggressive or excessively naïve or selfish.

King is not my favorite writer but if I had to say about the panel, Diana is giving us fragments. People in therapy don't always open up fully with all the details. So Diana just giving little bits and pieces and not the whole story and then immediately steeling herself and walking away once she regains her composure is actually pretty damn realistic.

[QUOTE=John Venus;6172197]What was Connor/Palmiotti's story?

Diana being so selfless that she rarely has time for herself or experiences burn out should be the kind of flaws she has. Not being overly aggressive or excessively naïve or selfish.

King is not my favorite writer but if I had to say about the panel, Diana is giving us fragments. People in therapy don't always open up fully with all the details. So Diana just giving little bits and pieces and not the whole story and then immediately steeling herself and walking away once she regains her composure is actually pretty damn realistic.[/QUOTE]

Agent of Peace #1, team up with their pet character, Harley.

Probably not the worse story by some objective measure but I’ve got zero time where WW plays second fiddle in title with her name on it to clown lady.

[QUOTE=Guy_McNichts;6172021]On Twitter you often come across people discussing the confessional sequences from [I]Heroes in Crisis[/I]--usually mocking them--and it made me recall the one they gave Wonder Woman. I remember this was discussed when the comic first came out, but I'm curious how people feel about it now.

[IMG]https://i.pinimg.com/originals/db/4b/14/db4b1418487da906d8a5c98cf42db905.jpg[/IMG]

I think there's a germ of an interesting idea here--that Diana is so selfless she doesn't want to burden anyone with her problems. But this weird anecdote about Hippolyta shot with an arrow and Diana hiding in her room just seems...off.

I guess King is suggesting a child being raised by warriors would be somewhat traumatic for her, but that seems to kind of miss the point of Themyscira. It's supposed to be the peaceful paradise that sheltered Diana...not a war-torn land of brutality. I also have to ask how and why Hippolyta was even shot? By who? When?

A lot of the confessional bits from [I]Heroes in Crisis[/I] boil down to:
a) "I really know something about this character & have something insightful for them"
b) "I only THINK I know something about this character"
c) "I know f***-all about this character, so I'll pull something out of my ass"
d) "make a joke"

Diana's feel like Option B.
Like I said, there's something potentially interesting here. But it's an idea I think would be served better by someone with a greater understanding of her character. And I don't think Tom King is that guy.[/QUOTE]

I like the concept presented in [I]Justice League: Dark[/I] that Diana was raised on a paradise island and maybe doesn't know how to open up to people when she is feeling emotions she didn't often feel on the island, like fear.

It's a different reason, but has the same outcome King mentions in [I]Heroes in Crisis[/I]. That Diana might could be more inclined to keep her feelings to herself on certain things so that others won't worry.

I just had a random thought. We all know WB Discovery is in bad financial shape, and it was reported that they are looking to shop [I]Batman: Caped Crusader[/I] to another streaming platform. I was wondering, do you think there's a chance WBD could temporarily give another streamer the rights to create a Wonder Woman cartoon? This would be beneficial to WB. They get immediately paid for the rights to create the cartoon. They could share the cost with the streamer, and similar to the Marvel Netflix shows, at the end of the contract, the Wonder Woman Animated Series could either revert back to HBO Max, or there's another chance to re-up the contract with the streamer, thus more money.

There are also ancillary benefits like merchandise, Blu Rays, etc.

If Cartoon Network isn't interested in a Wonder Woman cartoon, I could see Netflix or Apple being interested.

Would anyone be interested in such an idea considering the many recent reports regarding WBD's overwhelming debt, and how it could possibly benefit Wonder Woman fans?

[QUOTE=PopQuezy;6173106]I just had a random thought. We all know WB Discovery is in bad financial shape, and it was reported that they are looking to shop [I]Batman: Caped Crusader[/I] to another streaming platform. I was wondering, do you think there's a chance WBD could temporarily give another streamer the rights to create a Wonder Woman cartoon? This would be beneficial to WB. They get immediately paid for the rights to create the cartoon. They could share the cost with the streamer, and similar to the Marvel Netflix shows, at the end of the contract, the Wonder Woman Animated Series could either revert back to HBO Max, or there's another chance to re-up the contract with the streamer, thus more money.

There are also ancillary benefits like merchandise, Blu Rays, etc.

If Cartoon Network isn't interested in a Wonder Woman cartoon, I could see Netflix or Apple being interested.

Would anyone be interested in such an idea considering the many recent reports regarding WBD's overwhelming debt, and how it could possibly benefit Wonder Woman fans?[/QUOTE]

Of course. WBD has always given out various rights (see Sandman on Netflix) but someone would have to show active interest in doing a WW cartoon.

I doubt WBD is even smart enough to put it in their contract that they'd retain the cartoon after x amount of years.

But the days of HBO Max trying to get back most of its bigger content is pretty much over as WBD has no interest in making the service top tier anymore.

[img]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/Bs4I3ix3wY1dcePBVoSI9Q2TLhRADkiXd2d3GjaRgC1YKtMaaUbIpdWBJoMxLApFtsRPjCZG20ZJ=s0[/img]
[img]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/Dlz7jDJDWeKtLIPqRqpM7VMYWDyjVCP3Y3PJ-vErA2l5TUaveHyS5K0MieEqedkgmmD18Q0tQ1NI=s0[/img]
[img]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/oNinKR09LSpshdNNGKne1h7y3RPzhq22NZEkGmwWBWgwOq-IBj1CpqqZ1GVMUB6IWj_A-_KEXZeZ=s0[/img]

That art is....um....interesting...

[QUOTE=DisneyBoy;6175474]That art is....um....interesting...[/QUOTE]

In this universe, instead of being born from clay, Diana was born from silicone.