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[QUOTE=Sebastianne;6250104][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/DRxW2wY.jpg[/IMG]
five minutes later he killed Hippolyta miserably :P[/QUOTE]
It wasn't, Hippolyta gets cut in half by super karen's heat vision.
It's really annoying seeing talented artists get paired up with below sub-par writers.
[QUOTE=masterwitcher88;6250511]It wasn't, Hippolyta gets cut in half by super karen's heat vision.
It's really annoying seeing talented artists get paired up with below sub-par writers.[/QUOTE]
Hippolyta was cut in half by Lara Lor-Van.
when I wrote "HE KILLED" I meant Tom Taylor.
[QUOTE=Sebastianne;6250530]Hippolyta was cut in half by Lara Lor-Van.
when I wrote "HE KILLED" I meant Tom Taylor.[/QUOTE]
I know, she's a karen to me. Also, my bad I didn't see the bottom text.
Lol.
Someone's upset their Dick Grayson/Barbara Gordon shipping book lost to Historia at the Eisners.
[QUOTE=masterwitcher88;6250534]I know, she's a karen to me. Also, my bad I didn't see the bottom text.[/QUOTE]
Oh I read Karen and I thought you were talking about Kara LOL.
It is terrible and totally in bad taste what he did to Hippolyta.
[QUOTE=Gaius;6250536]Lol.
Someone's upset their Dick Grayson/Barbara Gordon shipping book lost to Historia at the Eisners.[/QUOTE]
That was sweet revenge for us.
I low-key admire Taylor's audacity as a salesman though. The "love" between Diana and Zala has almost nothing to do with this issue, the blurp saying "will their love save the kingdoms" is an outright lie, the kiss in the imgae is from an issue that came a year ago, yet the guy makes sure to put it at the forefront of his tweet because he know it'll catch people's attention (and this way he can also pat himself in the back).
[QUOTE=Sebastianne;6250530]Hippolyta was cut in half by Lara Lor-Van.[/QUOTE]
Jesus wept.
[QUOTE=Gaius;6250536]Lol.
Someone's upset their Dick Grayson/Barbara Gordon shipping book lost to Historia at the Eisners.[/QUOTE]
I would totally be down for a book that shamelessly catered to by Dick/Babs shipper heart, if it was written by anyone other than Tom Taylor.
He can kill Hippolyta all he wants, she got that award cred.
[QUOTE=masterwitcher88;6250511]It wasn't, Hippolyta gets cut in half by super karen's heat vision.
It's really annoying seeing talented artists get paired up with below sub-par writers.[/QUOTE]
Not going to lie, for a moment I thought "Super Karen" was referring to Power Girl. Thankfully she hasn't been marred by Taylor yet, but it's a shame what was done to Diana and Hippolyta.
[QUOTE=Robanker;6251929]Not going to lie, for a moment I thought "Super Karen" was referring to Power Girl. Thankfully she hasn't been marred by Taylor yet, but it's a shame what was done to Diana and Hippolyta.[/QUOTE]
You talk as if he would ever treat power girl with the negativity he treats Diana and her lore. It is WW that he hates. Not superman and batman. Obviously a white straight male would relate to those 2. And find a character with the concepts of WW intimidating. Poor guy with fragil ego.
[QUOTE=Zagre;6250869]I low-key admire Taylor's audacity as a salesman though. The "love" between Diana and Zala has almost nothing to do with this issue, the blurp saying "will their love save the kingdoms" is an outright lie, the kiss in the imgae is from an issue that came a year ago, yet the guy makes sure to put it at the forefront of his tweet because he know it'll catch people's attention (and this way he can also pat himself in the back).[/QUOTE]
It's infuriating. Meanwhile in the actual issue he kills off the queer woman who leads a society of almost all WLWs in the most pathetic, disrespectful way possible.
The way he talks up Jon Kent rubs me the wrong way too. He gives himself tons of kudos for making "the most powerful, iconic superhero in the world bisexual" (even though Jon's a legacy character who'll most likely be sidelined or retconned out in < 5 years), but we already had a canonically bisexual original member of the Trinity who's supposed to be on Supes' level with long-standing cultural status as a gay icon. Even though he at least acknowledges her queerness here, all we get are depowered, disposable versions of her and the Amazons who only serve to prop up his OCs.
[QUOTE=bardkeep;6252309]It's infuriating. Meanwhile in the actual issue he kills off the queer woman who leads a society of almost all WLWs in the most pathetic, disrespectful way possible.
The way he talks up Jon Kent rubs me the wrong way too. He gives himself tons of kudos for making "the most powerful, iconic superhero in the world bisexual" (even though Jon's a legacy character who'll most likely be sidelined or retconned out in < 5 years), but we already had a canonically bisexual original member of the Trinity who's supposed to be on Supes' level with long-standing cultural status as a gay icon. Even though he at least acknowledges her queerness here, all we get are depowered, disposable versions of her and the Amazons who only serve to prop up his OCs.[/QUOTE]
Jon Kent is as powerful or moreso than his dad? Guess those half human genes must be meta for him!
[QUOTE=bardkeep;6252309]It's infuriating. Meanwhile in the actual issue he kills off the queer woman who leads a society of almost all WLWs in the most pathetic, disrespectful way possible.
The way he talks up Jon Kent rubs me the wrong way too. He gives himself tons of kudos for making "the most powerful, iconic superhero in the world bisexual" (even though Jon's a legacy character who'll most likely be sidelined or retconned out in < 5 years), but we already had a canonically bisexual original member of the Trinity who's supposed to be on Supes' level with long-standing cultural status as a gay icon. Even though he at least acknowledges her queerness here, all we get are depowered, disposable versions of her and the Amazons who only serve to prop up his OCs.[/QUOTE]
In Taylor's defense, Jon is allowed to be explicitly and unambiguously bisexual while Diana is not. And I very much doubt he'll be retconned out.
[QUOTE=Agent Z;6254312]In Taylor's defense, Jon is allowed to be explicitly and unambiguously bisexual while Diana is not. And I very much doubt he'll be retconned out.[/QUOTE]
He has no excuse really. The man hates WW and his writing is just shock value trash.
[QUOTE=mystical41;6254593]He has no excuse really. The man hates WW and his writing is just shock value trash.[/QUOTE]
That doesn't really have to with what's Agent Z was talking about.
Jon's a barely defined character you can get away with making bi because he's not "the" Superman everyone thinks of while WW being either a lesbian or bi is something pretty much always consigned to elseworlds.
[QUOTE=Gaius;6254743]That doesn't really have to with what's Agent Z was talking about.
Jon's a barely defined character you can get away with making bi because he's not "the" Superman everyone thinks of while WW being either a lesbian or bi is something pretty much always consigned to elseworlds.[/QUOTE]
Which yet again proves DC and WB have sexist people that are also having a real case of homophobia. They have turned Diana into a genetic. Weak, masculine warrior girl witth sword and shield. And Why? To protect the fragil egos of a demographic that will never support her brand and what she stands for. If WW was actually allowed to be all she is supposed to be. queer, feminist, powerhouse, a leader, an ambassador, a sister, etc. Her franchise would be in a much better place today.
Or we can just acknowledge that Diana is just a straight character... she's a queer icon sure but being bi is frankly relatively new despite a few minor scans through the ages. All of her romances have been with men, none of this make her a lesser character, not every powerful woman needs to be sexually attracted to women, there are plenty of lesbian/bi/and now notable trans amazons to explore, she's still an icon for queer folks it shouldn't change people's perception of her (frankly that's an individual problem if it does), even in 2022 with our current presumably progressive writers and DC seemingly having no real care with what people do with Diana they still had her fall for Sigfred... who can blame her tbh, and I just don't see modern canon Wondy with a girlfriend. This whole Diana being canon bi thing just seems like a publicity stunt at this point, its BS and I'm personally tired of it.
[QUOTE=masterwitcher88;6255013]Or we can just acknowledge that Diana is just a straight character... she's a queer icon sure but being bi is frankly relatively new despite a few minor scans through the ages. All of her romances have been with men, none of this make her a lesser character, not every powerful woman needs to be sexually attracted to women, there are plenty of lesbian/bi/and now notable trans amazons to explore, she's still an icon for queer folks it shouldn't change people's perception of her (frankly that's an individual problem if it does), even in 2022 with our current presumably progressive writers and DC seemingly having no real care with what people do with Diana they still had her fall for Sigfred... who can blame her tbh, and I just don't see modern canon Wondy with a girlfriend. This whole Diana being canon bi thing just seems like a publicity stunt at this point, its BS and I'm personally tired of it.[/QUOTE]
Dating men doesn't make her a straight character. Especially not these days, when we have several "straight" characters portrayed as explicitly queer after years of subtext.
I don't even think it bears that much of an explanation. She doesn’t live in a place with the pretentious BS that our world has.
Yeah, even in a discussion like this, using words like "straight" and "bi" seem odd, since Diana comes from a fictional society loosely based on myths that don't really require any kind of adherence to labels like that. In my head canon Diana is simply attracted to anyone who she feels attracted to, regardless of gender identity.
In my head canon she's straight. You can easily be a queer icon and not be homasexshul.
[SIZE=1]*said like Leslie Jordan R.i.P.[/SIZE]
In any case I just wanted to share that thought. Diana has always been an ally and icon of the queer community, but decades in and she is, by all accounts, sexually attracted to men. Obviously, she's very close to her amazons and sisters, she can be attracted to women; I personally don't see it as romantic or sexual in nature.
A bisexual person is still queer even when the person they love the most who they want to be with in a monogamous relationship is of the opposite sex. Her primary love interest is still Steve who will get most of the page time anyway. Acknowledging she is also bisexual and has had prior relationships with women doesn't upset any apple carts. Especially as, unlike other characters who have been made gay/bi, she has been invoking something queer since the 1940s ("Suffering Sappho!).
Plus all her male romances aside from Steve (and even him half the time) aren't anything to write home about anyway. And as for the "every powerful woman needs to be queer" thing...how many other powerful/well written women do we have in DC that are queer that it upsets the balance? We have Batwoman, Renee, Ivy, Harley and Jo Mullen on one end, but Donna and Cassie have never been anything but straight as far as I know, Lois Lane is still straight, any subtext between Babs and Dinah has never lead to anything and the former is getting it from Dick on the regular right now, I don't think they've ever broached the topic with Kara or Karen, etc.
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;6255586]A bisexual person is still queer even when the person they love the most who they want to be with in a monogamous relationship is of the opposite sex. Her primary love interest is still Steve who will get most of the page time anyway. Acknowledging she is also bisexual and has had prior relationships with women doesn't upset any apple carts. Especially as, unlike other characters who have been made gay/bi, she has been invoking something queer since the 1940s ("Suffering Sappho!). [/QUOTE]
Preach! Diana's queer. End of story.
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;6255586]A bisexual person is still queer even when the person they love the most who they want to be with in a monogamous relationship is of the opposite sex. Her primary love interest is still Steve who will get most of the page time anyway. Acknowledging she is also bisexual and has had prior relationships with women doesn't upset any apple carts. Especially as, unlike other characters who have been made gay/bi, she has been invoking something queer since the 1940s ("Suffering Sappho!).
Plus all her male romances aside from Steve (and even him half the time) aren't anything to write home about anyway. And as for the "every powerful woman needs to be queer" thing...how many other powerful/well written women do we have in DC that are queer that it upsets the balance? We have Batwoman, Renee, Ivy, Harley and Jo Mullen on one end, but Donna and Cassie have never been anything but straight as far as I know, Lois Lane is still straight, any subtext between Babs and Dinah has never lead to anything and the former is getting it from Dick on the regular right now, I don't think they've ever broached the topic with Kara or Karen, etc.[/QUOTE]
That sounds like Wonder Woman has to be gay in order to fulfill a certain quota.
[QUOTE=Koriand'r;6255790]That sounds like Wonder Woman has to be gay in order to fulfill a certain quota.[/QUOTE]
Funny how this is always the go to argument against diversity of any kind as if having more than a handful of characters outside uniformity is inherently bad.
[QUOTE=Koriand'r;6255790]That sounds like Wonder Woman has to be gay in order to fulfill a certain quota.[/QUOTE]
No, just that she has been queer coded since the very beginning (again, "Suffering Sappho!". It's not subtle) in addition to being a gay icon. So Rucka writing her as bi is just confirming what was already an open, poorly kept "secret".
Where does the desire for her to be straight come from? Her being bi doesn't eliminate the romance with Steve. Wanting her to be straight seems to come from the desire to fulfill a quota.
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;6255996]No, just that she has been queer coded since the very beginning (again, "Suffering Sappho!". It's not subtle) in addition to being a gay icon. So Rucka writing her as bi is just confirming what was already an open, poorly kept "secret".
[B]Where does the desire for her to be straight come from? Her being bi doesn't eliminate the romance with Steve. Wanting her to be straight seems to come from the desire to fulfill a quota.[/B][/QUOTE]
You could easily make this argument for her being bi. Where does the desire for Diana to have a girlfriend come from, besides just confirming her bisexuality? Romance has NEVER been a strong suit in Diana's mythos. As Tom Taylor has ironically showed us, dating a girl doesn't fix that problem, writing better romances will.
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;6255996]No, just that she has been queer coded since the very beginning (again, "Suffering Sappho!". It's not subtle) in addition to being a gay icon. So Rucka writing her as bi is just confirming what was already an open, poorly kept "secret".
Where does the desire for her to be straight come from? Her being bi doesn't eliminate the romance with Steve. Wanting her to be straight seems to come from the desire to fulfill a quota.[/QUOTE]
Yup. The queer subtext in the GA comics was really just text, and there's a reason why the character totally lost her way after Seduction of the Innocent was published and the CCA mandated that they take those elements out. Frankly Marston's WW was one of the only positive representations of female homoeroticism in the '40s - the very few WLW romances in fiction were basically all framed as tragedies.
Even Kanigher - the guy who married Diana off to Steve, turned her into a pining schoolgirl, and stripped out all of the queer/feminist themes he could - evidently said at the end of his life that he always thought all of the Amazons were queer.
The push has always been to impose heterosexuality on a character who clearly wasn't conceived that way. If you think the very recent, very controversial, and entirely Western push for diversity in media is more influential than the lasting global force of homophobia or the pressure of the heterosexist gaze, idek what to tell you.
Besides, I really don't know how anyone could see this - knowing it's canon - and still say "oh, just very straight Diana and her gal pals":
[img]https://www.fortressofsolitude.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Wonder-Woman-So-Gay-So-Bi.png[/img]
[QUOTE=masterwitcher88;6255013]Or we can just acknowledge that Diana is just a straight character... she's a queer icon sure but being bi is frankly relatively new despite a few minor scans through the ages. All of her romances have been with men, none of this make her a lesser character, not every powerful woman needs to be sexually attracted to women, there are plenty of lesbian/bi/and now notable trans amazons to explore, she's still an icon for queer folks it shouldn't change people's perception of her (frankly that's an individual problem if it does), [B]even in 2022 with our current presumably progressive writers and DC seemingly having no real care with what people do with Diana they still had her fall for Sigfred[/B]... who can blame her tbh, and I just don't see modern canon Wondy with a girlfriend. This whole Diana being canon bi thing just seems like a publicity stunt at this point, its BS and I'm personally tired of it.[/QUOTE]
This isn't at all true. This Twitter thread from Michael Conrad: [url]https://twitter.com/michaelwconrad/status/1421700677722689537?s=46&t=38P8QLwbaSM4cAgl3oXyoA[/url]
[quote]We all know Diana is queer… it’s kind of canonical at this point.
To make something happen in the comic, which is beholden to TV, Film, Cartoons, Underoos, toys, etc— is a bit of an uphill battle. I don’t think anyone involved DOESN’T want to see this— but it’s a challenge. 🤷[/quote]
[quote]If it doesn’t happen it won’t be because we failed to advocate and try. It’s a complex issue, one deeper than storytelling and publishing. We’re doing all the work we can, editorial, creative, and beyond.[/quote]
Homophobia is still a massive influencing factor. And again, Diana being attracted to/having been with women does absolutely nothing to invalidate any of her relationships with men.
[QUOTE=masterwitcher88;6256362]You could easily make this argument for her being bi. Where does the desire for Diana to have a girlfriend come from, besides just confirming her bisexuality? Romance has NEVER been a strong suit in Diana's mythos. As Tom Taylor has ironically showed us, dating a girl doesn't fix that problem, [B]writing better romances will.[/B][/QUOTE]
Can her better romance not also happen to be with a woman?
Didn't John Byrne describe Diana as a "heterosexual virgin"?
Aside from making Maggie Sawyer and Cassie, I can't think of much positive stuff to come out of that guys tenure at DC
[QUOTE=masterwitcher88;6256362]You could easily make this argument for her being bi. Where does the desire for Diana to have a girlfriend come from, besides just confirming her bisexuality? Romance has NEVER been a strong suit in Diana's mythos. As Tom Taylor has ironically showed us, dating a girl doesn't fix that problem, writing better romances will.[/QUOTE]
No you really can't make the argument that acknowledging she's bi is from a desire to fulfill a quota. Because her very creator queer coded her in a way that barely qualifies as subtext. Randomly picking a character to be made gay for diversity points would be the case in what you describe, but there's a reason behind the thought process of choosing Diana specifically. Why do you think she gets chosen, but there isn't much outcry to acknowledge Donna or Cassie as bi? And even among the neglected civilian cast, there is nothing to suggest Julia, Vanessa and Myndi (all strong, layered women in their own way) are anything but straight.
Maybe the romance would be a strong suit if they didn't keep trying to shove Diana into a heteronormative box? It's possible to play with the queer themes even with Steve in the picture. Tom Taylor isn't the best counterpoint, because he sucks with her character in all areas.
[QUOTE=Agent Z;6255970]Funny how this is always the go to argument against diversity of any kind as if having more than a handful of characters outside uniformity is inherently bad.[/QUOTE]
I didn't say anything like that, please stop putting words in my mouth.
Let's face facts, queer icon or not, certain readers won't be satisfied unless Diana herself is in a same sex relationship. No matter how many other heroines are LQBTQ she's the big name and therefore the big prize.
It's like she has a target on her head.
[QUOTE=Koriand'r;6257495]I didn't say anything like that, please stop putting words in my mouth.
Let's face facts, queer icon or not, certain readers won't be satisfied unless Diana herself is in a same sex relationship. No matter how many other heroines are LQBTQ she's the big name and therefore the big prize.
It's like she has a target on her head.[/QUOTE]
And no matter how many other heroines are straight or how many guys she's been paired with, there are people who are going to lose it over her dating a woman, even if it's a one off.
This push for Diana to be in a same sex relationship isn't even that loud but the insistence on pairing her with any available male gets almost no pushback by comparison. Not from DC/WB at least.
[QUOTE=Agent Z;6257533]And no matter how many other heroines are straight or how many guys she's been paired with, there are people who are going to lose it over her dating a woman, even if it's a one off.
This push for Diana to be in a same sex relationship isn't even that loud but the insistence on pairing her with any available male gets almost no pushback by comparison. Not from DC/WB at least.[/QUOTE]
Lynda Carter defended Diana's bi status on twitter so, that's good enough for me.
I agree about the pushback. I don't mind her relationship with men, as long as they are like the opposite of Superman /Lois Lane and she has to swoop in and save them. I'm good with that. When the character is reduced to nothing more than arm candy for a male character (Superman), I'm not good with it. She deserves way better treatment than that.
[QUOTE=Koriand'r;6257495]It's like she has a target on her head.[/QUOTE]
Strange way to describe the desire for Diana to have a girlfriend.
Personally, I'm all for it just because, as Siege pointed out, the vast majority of Wonder Woman's ships (i.e. pretty much all, except for Chris Pine) suck. If they're not dull as dishwater, they're outright insulting. Personally, I have no use for Siggy either.
No, there's no guarantee a girlfriend will be any more interesting than Diana's various other vanilla boyfriends or rando Justice Leaguers. But if virtually every one of her hetero relationships has zero chemistry--and they do--maybe it's time to reconsider the approach.
[QUOTE=donnafan;6257551]Lynda Carter defended Diana's bi status on twitter so, that's good enough for me.
I agree about the pushback. I don't mind her relationship with men, as long as they are like the opposite of Superman /Lois Lane and she has to swoop in and save them. I'm good with that. When the character is reduced to nothing more than arm candy for a male character (Superman), I'm not good with it. She deserves way better treatment than that.[/QUOTE]
Last week, I saw a comment from someone complaining about how the movies made Diana's character revolve around Steve.
And their proposed solution to that supposed problem was to pair her up with Aquaman to raise his profile.
[QUOTE=Agent Z;6257561]Last week, I saw a comment from someone complaining about how the movies made Diana's character revolve around Steve.
And their proposed solution to that supposed problem was to pair her up with Aquaman to raise his profile.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/I6gKIc1.gif[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Guy_McNichts;6257563][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/I6gKIc1.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Exactly me reading that Aquaman comment. LOL!
If we really want to up Aquaman's status, let's pair Mamoa with Cavill's Superman. That'd be Brave and Bold. (pun intended)
Sorry - got off-topic for a second. Now back to Wonder Woman... (fanning myself)
I toe the Rucka line here. She was bi on Themyscira, met Steve who was her first male lover. And she’s open to either. The character needs to be written well. Deliberately going a certain way without fleshing a character out is something nobody would want, would just be token effort. The reason why Superman-Lois, Peter-Mj, Bruce- Selina have been iconic is because they have been fleshed out like that, not because the relationships have been hetero.
WW comics have always suffered from character development, Steve is a good example. Ironically the primary love interest’s best version (arguably) was written in the Movie verse shows how inconsistent writing has been.
[QUOTE=Agent Z;6257533]And no matter how many other heroines are straight or how many guys she's been paired with, there are people who are going to lose it over her dating a woman, even if it's a one off.
This push for Diana to be in a same sex relationship isn't even that loud but the insistence on pairing her with any available male gets almost no pushback by comparison. Not from DC/WB at least.[/QUOTE]
Isn't even that loud? In here it's deafening!
If it were Superman it would be different, not Jon, actually Superman. That would be brave, that would be novel, that would be genuinely controversial and a tough nut to crack. With Wonder Woman it's too easy because women are given a pass to dabble sexually and people don't care.
For the most part. Anybody watching today's election results knows the pendelum is swinging hard to the right. I'm thinking of all the conservative mothers who would take issue with their daughters (or sons) reading the adventures of the world's foremost "lesbian" superhero. They don't even want their kids exposed to real history, they'd see gay Wonder Woman as some sort of indoctrination of their children.
Not to mention what a horrible cliche it is, or how it seems progressive at first glance, but becomes immediately regressive once you examine it closer and realize what it says about nature vs. nurture and how it plays into long standing stereotypes.
The risk outweighs the reward.