What does "other Wonder Woman Related Titles" count?
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What does "other Wonder Woman Related Titles" count?
[QUOTE=Frontier;6503536]What does "other Wonder Woman Related Titles" count?[/QUOTE]
Sensation, Black & Gold, All-Star, Agent of Peace, annuals etc.
Stories were WW is the focus but not the "Wonder Woman" book.
[QUOTE=bardkeep;6502944]The WW cameo in The Flash leaked and was circulating around Twitter for a sec - looks like it's been taken down though. For those who are curious but don't want to actually see the movie (which was also my situation...):
[SPOIL]It's only, like, a minute long. She saves Bruce from falling off a bridge, there's yet another "someone accidentally spills their guts while touching the lasso" gag (Bruce says he dresses up as a bat to deal with his childhood trauma and would probably do more good using his resources to end poverty, Barry yells out that he's a virgin), she flies away. Pretty uneventful but hey, at least it finally establishes in canon that she can fly...[/spoil]
Curious to see when/if Gal announces that it was officially her last appearance.[/QUOTE]
Umm... yay? I guess? least its over for now.
[QUOTE=Alpha;6493481]No she isn't. It says that the well of centuries has been inactive for centuries, and it says that was around the time when Diana waas born. I still say the idea of Diana being on the island for even 100 years is ridiculously out of character, but it certainly hasn't been 1000 years even in current mainstream comics[/QUOTE]
Maybe they are using the mechanics of Not Time on Themyscira expressly explained by Byrne? Other runs referenced the strange way time works or doesn't work on the island before him, but his run gave a detailed conversion.
[QUOTE=Gaius;6503519][URL="https://www.reddit.com/r/WonderWoman/comments/13xfqxv/i_compiled_a_few_graphs_on_the_top_credited/"]Someone over at reddit did a breakdown of writers who have the most credits writing WW.[/URL]
[/QUOTE]
Kanigher looms large.
[QUOTE=bardkeep;6502944]The WW cameo in The Flash leaked and was circulating around Twitter for a sec - looks like it's been taken down though. For those who are curious but don't want to actually see the movie (which was also my situation...):
[SPOIL]It's only, like, a minute long. She saves Bruce from falling off a bridge, there's yet another "someone accidentally spills their guts while touching the lasso" gag (Bruce says he dresses up as a bat to deal with his childhood trauma and would probably do more good using his resources to end poverty, Barry yells out that he's a virgin), she flies away. Pretty uneventful but hey, at least it finally establishes in canon that she can fly...[/spoil]
Curious to see when/if Gal announces that it was officially her last appearance.[/QUOTE]
Just saw it and her cameo was nice enough. Much more enjoyable than it was in Shazam.
So if anyone has any recommendations for WW I'm starting now. I'm starting with Phil Jiminez with #164 through #177 (all I could find on comixology) mainly because he was recommended for one of the best comics writers. I thought about starting with George Perez, but I can't really get into DC's older comics.
[QUOTE=Gaius;6495879]*logs onto my blog on tumblr*
*sees I have like 60+ like notifications, 60 more than usual*
*sees DeConnick shared the review I did of Historia #3*
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/CfmY7Fh.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Congratulations👍.
[QUOTE=Shockingjustice;6505096]So if anyone has any recommendations for WW I'm starting now. I'm starting with Phil Jiminez with #164 through #177 (all I could find on comixology) mainly because he was recommended for one of the best comics writers. I thought about starting with George Perez, but I can't really get into DC's older comics.[/QUOTE]
Phil Jimenez is actually kind of a bad starting point because he relies so much on continuity leading up to that point, especially Perez's run. And Perez's run is brilliant but it's true that the style is out of vogue - still, I can't recommend it enough if you can get past the prose-heavy style, and if nothing else I'd check out Gods and Mortals (his first arc) because it's the foundation of every WW story to this day.
If pre-'90s comics are a no-go, I'd say with in-continuity stuff go in this order. Though keep in mind, the consensus (and my opinion) is that Perez and Rucka really are head and shoulders above the rest:
- Rucka's first run - starts with Hiketeia, followed by WW vol. 2 #195-226. Collected in trade as WW by Greg Rucka vols. 1-3. It's basically WW meets The West Wing with a hefty dose of Olympian drama and it rules.
- Gail Simone's run (vol. 3 #14-44). It starts with a pretty weird status quo that deals with the aftermath of Amazons Attack but you get up to speed pretty quickly. If traditional superheroics appeal to you more than more mythological or political angles, you'll probably dig this run.
- Rucka's Rebirth run (Rebirth #1-25). One of the arcs in is largely devoted to retconning n52, but Year One and Godwatch require no context.
If you like those it's worth checking out Jimenez, but I don't think he's a good starting place.
Tom King's upcoming run also seems like it'll be a good jumping-on point.
For out-of-continuity stuff:
- Wonder Woman Historia by Kelly Sue DeConnick, Phil Jimenez, Gene Ha, and Nicola Scott - just released in hardcover. A DC all-timer and it's 100% standalone. It's about the Amazons pre-Diana so not a typical WW story but cannot recommend it enough.
- Legend of Wonder Woman by Renae de Liz - really fun reimagined origin story.
- League of One by Christopher Moeller - technically a JLA book but really more of a WW story. Beautifully painted, not on the level of the rest of these recs IMO but it's solid and a lot of people love it.
And if you're feeling particularly adventurous and don't mind something extremely outdated and weird but really interesting, check out some of Marston's Golden Age stuff.
[QUOTE=bardkeep;6505352]Phil Jimenez is actually kind of a bad starting point because he relies so much on continuity leading up to that point, especially Perez's run. And Perez's run is brilliant but it's true that the style is out of vogue - still, I can't recommend it enough if you can get past the prose-heavy style, and if nothing else I'd check out Gods and Mortals (his first arc) because it's the foundation of every WW story to this day.
If pre-'90s comics are a no-go, I'd say with in-continuity stuff go in this order. Though keep in mind, the consensus (and my opinion) is that Perez and Rucka really are head and shoulders above the rest:
- Rucka's first run - starts with Hiketeia, followed by WW vol. 2 #195-226. Collected in trade as WW by Greg Rucka vols. 1-3. It's basically WW meets The West Wing with a hefty dose of Olympian drama and it rules.
- Gail Simone's run (vol. 3 #14-44). It starts with a pretty weird status quo that deals with the aftermath of Amazons Attack but you get up to speed pretty quickly. If traditional superheroics appeal to you more than more mythological or political angles, you'll probably dig this run.
- Rucka's Rebirth run (Rebirth #1-25). One of the arcs in is largely devoted to retconning n52, but Year One and Godwatch require no context.
If you like those it's worth checking out Jimenez, but I don't think he's a good starting place.
Tom King's upcoming run also seems like it'll be a good jumping-on point.
For out-of-continuity stuff:
- Wonder Woman Historia by Kelly Sue DeConnick, Phil Jimenez, Gene Ha, and Nicola Scott - just released in hardcover. A DC all-timer and it's 100% standalone. It's about the Amazons pre-Diana so not a typical WW story but cannot recommend it enough.
- Legend of Wonder Woman by Renae de Liz - really fun reimagined origin story.
- League of One by Christopher Moeller - technically a JLA book but really more of a WW story. Beautifully painted, not on the level of the rest of these recs IMO but it's solid and a lot of people love it.
And if you're feeling particularly adventurous and don't mind something extremely outdated and weird but really interesting, check out some of Marston's Golden Age stuff.[/QUOTE]
Ok I'll check out Perez and God's and Mortal. I guess up to this point it's been one continuing story until the New 52. I'll admit I got immediately lost.
[QUOTE=bardkeep;6502944]The WW cameo in The Flash leaked and was circulating around Twitter for a sec - looks like it's been taken down though. For those who are curious but don't want to actually see the movie (which was also my situation...):
[SPOIL]It's only, like, a minute long. She saves Bruce from falling off a bridge, there's yet another "someone accidentally spills their guts while touching the lasso" gag (Bruce says he dresses up as a bat to deal with his childhood trauma and would probably do more good using his resources to end poverty, Barry yells out that he's a virgin), she flies away. Pretty uneventful but hey, at least it finally establishes in canon that she can fly...[/spoil]
Curious to see when/if Gal announces that it was officially her last appearance.[/QUOTE]
[SPOIL]Didn't Wonder Woman 1984 already establish that the DCEU WW flies? [/spoil]
[QUOTE=HestiasHearth;6505697][SPOIL]Didn't Wonder Woman 1984 already establish that the DCEU WW flies? [/spoil][/QUOTE]
Not sure if she flies on 'air currents' or more like how someone like Superman flies. Not really clear from the end of the WW84 movie.
[QUOTE=BiteTheBullet;6505869]Not sure if she flies on 'air currents' or more like how someone like Superman flies. Not really clear from the end of the WW84 movie.[/QUOTE]
It was quite clear by the way her body moved and the way she seemed "powered" that her flying in the last scene of WW84 was not "riding air currents" (which never made sense to me, even by the so-called standards of comic book pseudo science. [SPOIL] In The Flash it's even clearer, and sorry, but I feel that anyone who sees the scene in The Flash and still says "that's air current riding!" is just being fastidiously contrarian for the sake of it. [/spoil]
[QUOTE=Shockingjustice;6505545]Ok I'll check out Perez and God's and Mortal. I guess up to this point it's been one continuing story until the New 52. I'll admit I got immediately lost.[/QUOTE]
Don't worry about it. Yeah Perez was the starting point for everything, up until the (lame) Nu52 reboot.
[B]Start with the Perez stuff!!! [/B]Those first 62 issues, plus Annuals, is the best overall treatment the character ever got. You will miss out majorly if you skip his work. Everyone built off of it.
Personally, as someone who read stuff a bit out of sequence and regretted it, I HIGHLY advise reading these writers' work on the monthly WW book in order:
George Perez, John Byrne, Eric Luke, Phil Jimenez and then Greg Rucka.
I say skip William Messner-Loebs, which comes after Perez, because the art gets [I]baaaaaad[/I] and the stories were a departure. There are some big plot developments but you can get caught up on them later and there was a bad attempt to change the Amazon's origin story that everyone else wisely ignored.
After Rucka was ousted from WW, sorry to say, I didn't enjoy the rest much. Gail Simone had way too much cleaning up to do following a silly soft reboot and her run felt scattered.
Enjoy your read-through! I'm almost jealous. There's so much great stuff for you to discover. It's almost 200 issues,
if you read just those guys' runs! Enjoy!
[SPOIL]I haven't seen [I]Flash[/I], nor do I plan to because it looks terrible. But I've seen a handful of clips on Twitter and other places.
Cool to see Diana indisputably fly at least. Though there is something sadly ironic that the (most likely) last we'll see of Gal Gadot's Diana in a movie is her flying away.
Apparently Lynda Carter's Wonder Woman was supposed to be among the cameos when Flash sees the entire multiverse, but they cut it.
I've mixed feelings, because while we don't need to see a creepy, uncanny valley CGI approximation of Lynda Carter, isn't all too fitting that--when faced with the vast, infinite multiverse--Flash only sees various Supermen and Batmen (plus one Supergirl and one Jay Garrick).
The only other live action Wonder Woman? Nah, cut her...but let's make room for an full minute of the Nic Cage Superman fighting a giant spider, because I'm sure general audiences all watched that Kevin Smith Q&A to understand what the hell that means.
Kinda says it all about DC, doesn't it?[/spoil]
[QUOTE=Guy_McNichts;6506045][SPOIL]I haven't seen [I]Flash[/I], nor do I plan to because it looks terrible. But I've seen a handful of clips on Twitter and other places.
Cool to see Diana indisputably fly at least. Though there is something sadly ironic that the (most likely) last we'll see of Gal Gadot's Diana in a movie is her flying away.
Apparently Lynda Carter's Wonder Woman was supposed to be among the cameos when Flash sees the entire multiverse, but they cut it.
I've mixed feelings, because while we don't need to see a creepy, uncanny valley CGI approximation of Lynda Carter, isn't all too fitting that--when faced with the vast, infinite multiverse--Flash only sees various Supermen and Batmen (plus one Supergirl and one Jay Garrick).
The only other live action Wonder Woman? Nah, cut her...but let's make room for an full minute of the Nic Cage Superman fighting a giant spider, because I'm sure general audiences all watched that Kevin Smith Q&A to understand what the hell that means.
Kinda says it all about DC, doesn't it?[/spoil][/QUOTE]
I wasn't ever planning to see [I]The Flash[/I] movie anyway because of how DC/WB trashed the [I]Batgirl[/I] movie because they said it wasn't good, but let this mediocre movie fly while its lead was creating all sorts of criminal havoc all over the place. A hard NAH.
Fantastic Nicola Scott Wonder Woman interview.
[URL="https://player.captivate.fm/episode/74dfa865-db6f-4698-b20a-73f71f698b8b"]https://player.captivate.fm/episode/74dfa865-db6f-4698-b20a-73f71f698b8b[/URL]
[QUOTE=Guy_McNichts;6506045][SPOIL]I haven't seen [I]Flash[/I], nor do I plan to because it looks terrible. But I've seen a handful of clips on Twitter and other places.
Cool to see Diana indisputably fly at least. Though there is something sadly ironic that the (most likely) last we'll see of Gal Gadot's Diana in a movie is her flying away.
Apparently Lynda Carter's Wonder Woman was supposed to be among the cameos when Flash sees the entire multiverse, but they cut it.
I've mixed feelings, because while we don't need to see a creepy, uncanny valley CGI approximation of Lynda Carter, isn't all too fitting that--when faced with the vast, infinite multiverse--Flash only sees various Supermen and Batmen (plus one Supergirl and one Jay Garrick).
The only other live action Wonder Woman? Nah, cut her...but let's make room for an full minute of the Nic Cage Superman fighting a giant spider, because I'm sure general audiences all watched that Kevin Smith Q&A to understand what the hell that means.
Kinda says it all about DC, doesn't it?[/spoil][/QUOTE]
It does say it all. And it proves they still don't think of her that much or value her.
[QUOTE=HotBoy;6506167]Fantastic Nicola Scott Wonder Woman interview.
[URL="https://player.captivate.fm/episode/74dfa865-db6f-4698-b20a-73f71f698b8b"]https://player.captivate.fm/episode/74dfa865-db6f-4698-b20a-73f71f698b8b[/URL][/QUOTE]
Ooooo… thank you!
Eh, Carter reprising WW would have been nice in theory but given what I’ve seen of leaked videos with the awful CG, probably bullet dodged.
Though yeah, but amusing they talk about how it celebrates the history of DC in film/media and what we’re left with is…whole lot of Superman and Batman.
Would have been cool when West was still alive if they ever did a “Batman ‘66 meets Wonder Woman ‘77” animated movie.
[QUOTE=Gaius;6506320]Eh, Carter reprising WW would have been nice in theory but given what I’ve seen of leaked videos with the awful CG, probably bullet dodged.
Though yeah, but amusing they talk about how it celebrates the history of DC in film/media and what we’re left with is…whole lot of Superman and Batman.
Would have been cool when West was still alive if they ever did a “Batman ‘66 meets Wonder Woman ‘77” animated movie.[/QUOTE]
[url=https://screenrant.com/lynda-carter-wonder-woman-almost-cameoed-batman-vs-two-face/]One of the pitched endings for Batman vs Two-Face actually had West's Batman as an old man "pass the torch" to Lynda Carter's Wonder Woman.[/url]
[QUOTE=HotBoy;6506167]Fantastic Nicola Scott Wonder Woman interview.
[URL="https://player.captivate.fm/episode/74dfa865-db6f-4698-b20a-73f71f698b8b"]https://player.captivate.fm/episode/74dfa865-db6f-4698-b20a-73f71f698b8b[/URL][/QUOTE]
This is fantastic, thanks for sharing! I feel like every Nicola Scott interview reveals so many details I missed in her work. Lots of new insight into Year One as well which was unexpected and very cool - kinda wish she'd gotten to include the pentagram star on the tiara in Diana's Rebirth design, making it a protection spell is a really clever idea.
Also it's kinda funny that she's doing Titans now when she and the host had a whole aside about how much better WW is when she's not connected to the DCU or doing standard superhero stuff. And if you listen to this and compare it to that recent Tom Taylor interview, it's very clear where her passions lie...
[QUOTE=HestiasHearth;6505697][SPOIL]Didn't Wonder Woman 1984 already establish that the DCEU WW flies? [/spoil][/QUOTE]
[SPOIL]Yeah, it technically did but considering BvS and JL followed it in continuity and didn't feature her flying this solidified it.[/SPOIL]
[QUOTE=HotBoy;6506137]I wasn't ever planning to see [I]The Flash[/I] movie anyway because of how DC/WB trashed the [I]Batgirl[/I] movie because they said it wasn't good, but let this mediocre movie fly while its lead was creating all sorts of criminal havoc all over the place. A hard NAH.[/QUOTE]
I'm not gonna lie, getting some serious schadenfreude watching the movie flop into oblivion. And apparently the audience has something crazy like an 80/20 M/F gender split which I think says enough about how people feel about Ezra Miller.
Honestly feeling like the new DCU is dead on arrival. I'm sure Superman will at least do okay, but a new connected universe isn't gonna work when faith in the DC brand is this bad and people already have connected universe burnout from the MCU. I honestly think any superhero who can't sell based on name alone (i.e. anyone who's not in the Trinity) is doomed, and I'm even skeptical of how a new Batman will do so soon after the Reeves/Pattinson Batman movies and their spin-off show.
[QUOTE=Gaius;6506320]Eh, Carter reprising WW would have been nice in theory but given what I’ve seen of leaked videos with the awful CG, probably bullet dodged. [/QUOTE]
I'm definitely not out here wishing there'd been a Lynda Carter cameo but it's odd that she was the one they omitted when she's actually alive and able to consent. Making CGI puppets of Christopher Reeve and George Reeves was beyond tasteless and disrespectful.
[QUOTE=Frontier;6506352][url=https://screenrant.com/lynda-carter-wonder-woman-almost-cameoed-batman-vs-two-face/]One of the pitched endings for Batman vs Two-Face actually had West's Batman as an old man "pass the torch" to Lynda Carter's Wonder Woman.[/url][/QUOTE]
Shame it didn't come to pass.
[QUOTE=bardkeep;6506391]
I'm definitely not out here wishing there'd been a Lynda Carter cameo but it's odd that she was the one they omitted when she's actually alive and able to consent. Making CGI puppets of Christopher Reeve and George Reeves was beyond tasteless and disrespectful.[/QUOTE]
Not gauche enough I assume. :p
George Reeves "cameo" actually gets worse when you realize the movie came out the same day as his death.
[QUOTE=bardkeep;6506391]
Honestly feeling like the new DCU is dead on arrival. I'm sure Superman will at least do okay, but a new connected universe isn't gonna work when faith in the DC brand is this bad and people already have connected universe burnout from the MCU. I honestly think any superhero who can't sell based on name alone (i.e. anyone who's not in the Trinity) is doomed, and I'm even skeptical of how a new Batman will do so soon after the Reeves/Pattinson Batman movies and their spin-off show.[/QUOTE]
I definitely think the new DCU is gonna struggle out of the gate. I expect Superman to do somewhere between "bare bones acceptable" to "respectably solid" at the box office, just on Clark's name recognition. But I don't think any of the films, including Legacy, will do great numbers (I certainly don't expect a billion out of any of them); DC's brand is too damaged for that kind of instant recovery. It'll take time, and a unbroken string of successful content, for the stink to start wearing off.
I figure if Legacy can hit somewhere between 700 and 800 million (adjusted for whatever 2025's inflation and economy look like), that should be considered a win. Anything above 600 I'd call fair, and anything above 800 I'm probably calling a flat out victory.
I don't agree about the name recognition factor though. That helps for sure, but we're well past the point where a character needs to be A-list in order for a movie to be successful, and I don't think we're gonna regress. It's been proven that no-name superheroes can be huge hits, and I think that'll remain true regardless of what happens with the movie industry or the superhero genre.
I think the trick now is to find a story that is different and new. The films and shows that are doing well, like Spider-Verse, Wandavision, Invincible, and Peacemaker, aren't just doing the same old superhero/MCU formula, they're breaking expectations and doing new/different things. I think that's the key; people might be tired of the same stuff Marvel's been churning out for fifteen years, but the stuff that's weird and different mostly seems to be doing fine (a few exceptions aside).
[QUOTE=Ascended;6506406]I definitely think the new DCU is gonna struggle out of the gate. I expect Superman to do somewhere between "bare bones acceptable" to "respectably solid" at the box office, just on Clark's name recognition. But I don't think any of the films, including Legacy, will do great numbers (I certainly don't expect a billion out of any of them); DC's brand is too damaged for that kind of instant recovery. It'll take time, and a unbroken string of successful content, for the stink to start wearing off.
I figure if Legacy can hit somewhere between 700 and 800 million (adjusted for whatever 2025's inflation and economy look like), that should be considered a win. Anything above 600 I'd call fair, and anything above 800 I'm probably calling a flat out victory..[/QUOTE]
I agree with you on Legacy. I don't expect it to hit a billion or anything, but I think it's reasonable to expect at least something like MoS numbers (adjusted for inflation). Certainly enough to set up a franchise.
[QUOTE=Ascended;6506406]I don't agree about the name recognition factor though. That helps for sure, but we're well past the point where a character needs to be A-list in order for a movie to be successful, and I don't think we're gonna regress. It's been proven that no-name superheroes can be huge hits, and I think that'll remain true regardless of what happens with the movie industry or the superhero genre. [/QUOTE]
I honestly think it's hard to say at this point because the no-name superheroes who did really well in past years came way before the MCU got stale. When is the last time we got a non-sequel starring a C-lister or below that did really well at the box office? Movies like Guardians and Captain Marvel came out during MCU mania. The first Shazam movie had like 90% on RT (which rarely happens with superhero movies anymore), did something really different, and came out during the pre-Endgame days where just about every superhero movie did well and even that only succeeded because it had a very small budget - its box office haul was worse than Black Adam's.
If Blue Beetle gets good reviews, I think that's gonna be a huge test.
[QUOTE=Ascended;6506406]I think the trick now is to find a story that is different and new. The films and shows that are doing well, like Spider-Verse, Wandavision, Invincible, and Peacemaker, aren't just doing the same old superhero/MCU formula, they're breaking expectations and doing new/different things. I think that's the key; people might be tired of the same stuff Marvel's been churning out for fifteen years, but the stuff that's weird and different mostly seems to be doing fine (a few exceptions aside).[/QUOTE]
Yeah, agreed here as well. And I think animation is a huge opportunity area if they really get some strong talent on board.
[QUOTE=bardkeep;6506451]
I honestly think it's hard to say at this point because the no-name superheroes who did really well in past years came way before the MCU got stale. When is the last time we got a non-sequel starring a C-lister or below that did really well at the box office?[/QUOTE]
I think Shang Chi did reasonably well for the time it came out? You've got a point, but how many new IP have launched in the last couple years? Eternals, Shang.....I feel like everything else has been a sequel or a streaming show? On that end, there's been a number of new IP on streaming and many of them have done well, but that's a separate industry.
[QUOTE]If Blue Beetle gets good reviews, I think that's gonna be a huge test.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. I wonder if Gunn will edit it any, to free it up for the new DCU's continuity?
I actually think Beetle has decent-ish odds of a solid box office, by modern DC standards. Enough to justify a sequel and some cameos. Gunn saying he's including it in the DCU might just be marketing hype but I feel like he wouldn't connect himself to it if he didn't have at least 'some' faith in its quality.
[QUOTE]Yeah, agreed here as well. And I think animation is a huge opportunity area if they really get some strong talent on board.[/QUOTE]
Not a cartoon guy but I definitely think animation is a sweet spot for the genre and between Spider-Verse and Mario and Invincible and HMA and One Punch and whatever else, maybe other people are starting to see that too. Transitioning the costumes and visuals is easier and there's no budget limits on your set pieces; the capital city of Thanagar is no more expensive or time consuming to create than the Daily Planet office, and a street fight against a mugger no different than a planet-breaking super brawl against Darkseid.
The Gal Gadot related part in bold:
[QUOTE=Last Son of Krypton;6506421]THR article on why Gunn's changed the ending of The Flash and the original plans to build toward a Crisis event to "reset" the DCU:
[I]The Flash began life under the studio regime run by Toby Emmerich and his lieutenant, DC Films boss Walter Hamada. Most of the shooting and post-production was undertaken under that leadership, with the movie as part of Hamada’s plan to have Flash build to a major reset of the entire DC cinematic universe, departing from the one established by filmmaker Zack Snyder with Man of Steel a decade ago. Hamada planned a Flash sequel and then wanted to move to a movie inspired by the 1980s classic comic event, Crisis on Infinite Earths.
The Flash, as it was originally conceived and shot, ended on the courthouse steps with Supergirl, played by Sasha Calle, and Batman, played by Michael Keaton, who was already featured throughout the movie as a returned Batman. It was meant to highlight that Barry did not reset the timeline as he thought he did. It was an ending that was screen tested several times, [spoil]one that reversed the deaths of Supergirl and Batman earlier in the film.[/spoil]
However, the movie got caught in the lightning storm that was Discovery’s acquisition of Warner Bros. in 2022. Emmerich and Hamada were ousted, and Warner Bros. Discovery CEO David Zaslav was on the hunt for an executive to run DC. In the meantime, Michael De Luca and Pamela Abdy were installed as Warner Bros. Pictures Group chairpersons and CEOs. They were tasked with overseeing DC in the meantime, and suddenly and certainly not unexpectedly they had their own plans.
[B]A new The Flash ending was conceived. This new version was still on the courthouse steps, but now Calle’s Supergirl was joined by Superman, played by Henry Cavill, and Wonder Woman, played by Gal Gadot. Keaton also remained. De Luca and Abdy believed they were being strategic with the ending. Cavill was going to cameo for DC movie Black Adam and was being teed up to return to the role in a brand Superman new movie. Supergirl was retained because even though the executives were killing the development of a standalone Supergirl movie, they were open to her returning in some form and didn’t want the last image audiences saw of her [spoil]to be her death at the hands of a supervillain (Michael Shannon’s General Zod).[/spoil]
Meanwhile, the studio was developing a third installment of Wonder Woman with filmmaker Patty Jenkins and star Gadot. This was a nice way to keep Wonder Woman in the cultural conversation. This ending was shot in September involving Miller, Cavill and Gadot as well as Keaton and Calle.
Then came another lightning strike. In November, Zaslav announced that filmmaker James Gunn and producer Peter Safran were to run DC Studios, overseeing all DC film and television efforts. And suddenly and certainly not unexpectedly, they had their own plans.
Knowing they were resetting the DC universe under their own vision, Gunn and Safran saw that having Cavill and Gadot in the new ending was potentially promising something their plans were not going to deliver. One of the first actions the duo took was to scrap the Cavill Superman film, and they parted ways with Jenkins, effectively killing the third Wonder Woman installment.[/B]
The filmmakers, according to multiple people associated with the movie, then looked for alternatives but wanted to keep the germ of the idea: Barry Allen thinks all is right, but then has the rug pulled out at the last moment. They also went back to an idea joked about earlier in the filmmaking process: “How many Batmen can we get?” [spoil]Clooney was brought up as a long-shot, but Gunn and Safran jumped on the notion.
The duo reached out to Clooney’s agent at CAA, Bryan Lourd, showing him a cut of the mostly finished film. He liked it and then showed it to Clooney. Clooney liked it and agreed to be a part of it.
A shoot was quickly assembled and on a January morning on the Warners lot, Clooney was there as Wayne, back for the first time in 26 years. Also on set was Miller, making their first appearance on the lot since the fateful day in August where they met with De Luca and Abdy to discuss their controversial behavior (including multiple arrests) and steps forward.
Miller was in top form that day, sources say, for what was described as a quick and efficient shoot. Clooney and Miller spent some time together in between takes with the veteran actor having a talk with the younger actor, giving encouraging advice about handling being in the public eye and behaving in public.
[/spoil]
Warner kept the new ending tucked away as much as possible. The studio didn’t even screen test it. And when it screened the movie at CinemaCon for theater owners and press in April, it stopped short of revealing who came to the courthouse steps. The first time the new ending was seen by anyone other than the filmmakers was at screenings for press the week of June 4, and then at the movie’s premiere last June 12.
“It’s rare that you have a movie in post-production that faces three separate regimes with three separate agendas,” notes one insider. “None of them were scrapped because of ill will, just different visions.”[/I]
[url]https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-features/the-flash-inside-george-clooney-return-batman-1235517975/[/url][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Ascended;6506406]I definitely think the new DCU is gonna struggle out of the gate. I expect Superman to do somewhere between "bare bones acceptable" to "respectably solid" at the box office, just on Clark's name recognition. But I don't think any of the films, including Legacy, will do great numbers (I certainly don't expect a billion out of any of them); DC's brand is too damaged for that kind of instant recovery. It'll take time, and a unbroken string of successful content, for the stink to start wearing off.[/QUOTE]
Insiders are claiming that there's "no such thing as superhero movie fatigue," but I think that's wishful thinking on their part. Diehard superhero and video game fans with a completist mindset will always show up for these films, but the wide, mainstream audience they used to command is beginning to move on. There are just [I]too many[/I] genre-specific movies, TV shows, tie-ins, etc. Even my nieces and nephews no longer have any interest--or when they do go, they come back saying they found the film "Okay" or "Boring." It's pretty much because all of these films follow the exact same model. And that can only be boring after the 56th time you've seen it.
And as you said, DC has a horrible reputation when it comes to these movies mainly because the general pathology at the company was shame around their characters. Writers felt like they had to make the characters "cool" like Marvel's characters are perceived, instead of trusting that the reason these characters have lasted longer than most of us have been alive is because of the things that made them unique and inspirational. A Superman who breaks necks might be a thrill for some people for a moment, but for others, it reeks of a desperate attempt at hipness. It's like putting great-grandpa in sagging jeans, a hoodie, and Air Force Ones. The people who do it and a few of the younger relatives might think it's novel, but the rest of us are looking at it like: "He looks like a pure fool."
I'm probably not going to see another superhero anything until the Amazon/Game of Thrones thingie. And then maybe the Wonder Woman rebooted film, depending on the casting, writer, and director.
It seems a lot of the people complaining about comic book fatigue are comic fans (and those who hate women and minority movies) rather than mainstream audiences.
[QUOTE=Agent Z;6507086]It seems a lot of the people complaining about comic book fatigue are comic fans (and those who hate women and minority movies) rather than mainstream audiences.[/QUOTE]
This is the tea. Very well said.
Yeah, I got to wonder how successful Gunn's reboot will be given it'll have to overcome DC films being seen as synonymous with "bad movies" and there's two more DC films to get through until his Superman film.
[QUOTE=Ascended;6507004]I think Shang Chi did reasonably well for the time it came out? You've got a point, but how many new IP have launched in the last couple years? Eternals, Shang.....I feel like everything else has been a sequel or a streaming show? On that end, there's been a number of new IP on streaming and many of them have done well, but that's a separate industry.
.[/QUOTE]
Shang-Chi and Eternals did okay ($400m-ish) but not great, and that was before the MCU brand was diluted by the bevy of Disney+ shows and some crap movies like Thor 4 and Quantumania. It’s true that the only new superheroes getting movies got the worst of the worst (Flash, Black Adam, Morbius, Super-pets if they count) but those things all factor into genre fatigue.
[QUOTE=Agent Z;6507086]It seems a lot of the people complaining about comic book fatigue are comic fans (and those who hate women and minority movies) rather than mainstream audiences.[/QUOTE]
Literally everyone I know is sick to death of CBMs. None of my friends are comic fans and the majority of them are women and/or minorities themselves. I used to always have a few friends who were down to see most MCU movies but the only superhero anything more than one or two of my friends have watched in the past few years are The Batman, Harley Quinn, and Spiderverse.
[QUOTE=Ascended;6506406]
I don't agree about the name recognition factor though. That helps for sure, but we're well past the point where a character needs to be A-list in order for a movie to be successful, and I don't think we're gonna regress. It's been proven that no-name superheroes can be huge hits, and I think that'll remain true regardless of what happens with the movie industry or the superhero genre.
I think the trick now is to find a story that is different and new. The films and shows that are doing well, like Spider-Verse, Wandavision, Invincible, and Peacemaker, aren't just doing the same old superhero/MCU formula, they're breaking expectations and doing new/different things. I think that's the key; people might be tired of the same stuff Marvel's been churning out for fifteen years, but the stuff that's weird and different mostly seems to be doing fine (a few exceptions aside).[/QUOTE]
Can’t agree personally. The only C-List characters that have done consistently well have been MCU movies. Birds of Prey got solid reviews but flopped, and that was before Covid hit. Granted it probably didn’t help DC that most of the movies starring lesser known characters haven’t gotten great reviews, but I don’t think a Metal Men movie that got great critical reception could hope to make bank at the box office.
[QUOTE=Agent Z;6507086]It seems a lot of the people complaining about comic book fatigue are comic fans (and those who hate women and minority movies) rather than mainstream audiences.[/QUOTE]
Feels like it's the critics too.
[QUOTE=Agent Z;6507086]It seems a lot of the people complaining about comic book fatigue are comic fans (and those who hate women and minority movies) rather than mainstream audiences.[/QUOTE]
Oh word?
BLACK QUEER MALE FEMINIST HERE. I'm super-tired of comic book films not because of women or POC. But because they're monotonous and not interesting. Blue Beetle is the only one that looks remotely interesting (from the trailers).
And I'm certain my Black nieces and nephews don't hate women and POC.
Y'all really be straight wylin' on this message board. Like, for real.
[QUOTE=WonderLight789;6507097]This is the tea. Very well said.[/QUOTE]
Nah. It's an attempt to (erroneously) label and silence people who don't feel like they feel. From my perspective, the people actually going to these movies are men and who seems to be sitting them out are women. At least, that's what the nearly [URL="https://deadline.com/2023/06/box-office-the-flash-elemental-ezra-miller-1235418741/"]80/20 gender split[/URL] of [I]The Flash[/I] audience seems to suggest. I mean, the movie stars an [I]actual[/I] misogynist, but go awf, I guess.
[QUOTE]That was the big looming question which was on everyone’s minds in the wake of Ezra Miller’s tabloid laden 2020-2022 in regards to Warner Bros. DC’s $200M The Flash, and now we have our answer as the pic is opening to $55.1M over 3-days and $64M for the 4-day Juneteenth holiday weekend at 4,234 theaters, below Warner’s $70M-$75M 3-day expectations. 3-day projections just kept losing speed for this Andy Muschietti-directed movie.
That buzz, coupled with the fact that The Flash is very male-heavy and not pulling in as many women as Aquaman and Wonder Woman, is slowing it down.[/QUOTE]
[url]https://deadline.com/2023/06/box-office-the-flash-bomb-elemental-1235419478/[/url]
To think: On social media, Flash fans were trashing Wonder Woman and Wonder Woman fans and suggesting that [I]The Flash[/I] would blow [I]Wonder Woman[/I] out of the water.
Well.
The divide between male and female audiences for comic book movies has been decreasing for years now. The Flash was the exception to the rule and it's failure says more about the circumstances surrounding the film (having changed directors twice, constantly shifting release dates and a lead actor embroiled in legal controversy) than comic book films as a whole. The MCU is still making money.
[QUOTE=Gaius;6507109]Yeah, I got to wonder how successful Gunn's reboot will be given it'll have to overcome DC films being seen as synonymous with "bad movies" and there's two more DC films to get through until his Superman film.[/QUOTE]
3 more since Blue Beetle, Aquaman 2 and The Joker 2 all release before Superman Legacy. Though 2025 looks like a great year for DC as both Batman and Superman have films that year
I will say the thing with "superhero fatigue" is that keep in mind most movies aren't really good. I mean people complain about there being too many superhero movies but keep in mind the amount of movies released in 2022 was 449 and the previous year was 406. And those numbers is just what was released in North America specifically.
But people ignore all those films and like to finger superhero films cause they got more "hype".
With Marvel they've hit that inevitable point where if your making so many movies, not all of them are gonna be hits. They've become the average and it doesn't help they've become extremally formulaic and by committee in their film design.
With Gunn he does have the credibility of hitting a perfect trilogy, all 3 of his Guardians films are well-received probably making them the best trilogy in the franchise especially with a consistent creator at the helm. Also keep in mind Guardian's 3 started with a low box office that increased over the weeks due to positive word of mouth (which is the opposite of what happened toAnt-Man 3 which killed its own hype) so Gunn has that accomplishment to his name. So there's hope he can at least provide a unique vision to the franchise, that is hopefully better received than Snyder's.
[B][SIZE=3]Gal Gadot feels empowered to focus on other stories after scrapped Wonder Woman 3[/SIZE][/B]
[url]https://www.gamesradar.com/gal-gadot-feels-empowered-to-focus-on-other-stories-after-scrapped-wonder-woman-3/[/url]
[IMG]https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/pFUDkCFQpwPRxsohxTEe76-970-80.jpg.webp[/IMG]
[QUOTE]Gal Gadot says she feels empowered to focus on telling other stories following the cancellation of Wonder Woman 3. When asked about her immediate future beyond the DCEU in the new issue of Total Film magazine, which is out on newsstands on Thursday, June 22, the cover star described it as "a chapter" she's currently living through.
"To me, starting and developing stories that I'm passionate about is an incredible thing. The fact that I don't have to sit still at home and just wait for the next offer is something that makes me feel empowered. I enjoy doing it, it keeps me alive," said Gadot, who'll soon be seen fronting Netflix spy thriller Heart of Stone.
"I'm not only going to do my own projects, I'm going to work as an actress-for-hire still. But the fact that I can go ahead and tell the stories that I'm passionate about – from ideas that I conceived, or from ideas that I find fascinating from people that want to partner with us – it's an incredible thing.[/QUOTE]