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An amazing creative whose works such as Astro City really showcase what makes him such an amazing writer.
He also had a short series called 'Power Company' wherin Doctor Cyber was its central villain.
Ive always wished we could get Busiek to write a Wonder Woman ongoing. He is an amazing talent at doing the homework and research to really grasp what makes a character work.
Trinity was also an unsung classic on his part which gave Wonder Woman a fair amount of attention.
[QUOTE=Gaius;6531489]Probably wrote one of the only good post-Marston pre-Crisis WW stories with Trina Robbins. Found the other times he's written her to be good.
Think he's probably one of the only few whose written a good Wonder Woman, Superman, and Batman solo stuff.[/QUOTE]
If he writes WW as well as he wrote Livewire... :D
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;6531175]I think Lois is shallow/petty enough that "my husband's super hot co-worker who wears a revealing bathing suit spends a lot of time with him" would be a legit issue with her. It should just never be the sum total of her feelings for Diana, the deeper emotions (positive and negative) should be there too.
Part of the appeal of Lois is that she isn't a saint. She's can be petty and cutting, in addition to being intelligent, brave, loving, compassionate, etc. [/QUOTE]
Agreed. The relationship between Diana and Lois should have some nuance and layers to it and Lois is best when her flaws aren't buried. I like them when they start out a little standoffish and distant towards each other but grow into very close friends with time. And Lois can respect, admire, trust, and love Diana (and Clark of course!) while still having a little voice in the back of her head nagging about how she'll never match up to the inhumanly beautiful, literally divine slice of scantily clad feminine perfection that her husband works with.
I think there are ways for Lois and WW to have differences in opinion even outside of Superman. Lois is skeptic, more world weary and a little cynical in contrast to Clark. I can see her wanting to know what this warrior woman on a quest for peace wants. I can see her really wanting to get into Diana's mind and see how she views the world. I can see Lois in her drive creating a little friction between them but nothing that they both can't get over. I can see Diana being immortal and superpowered making Lois feel at least a little conscious of her mortality and strengths as a human.
[QUOTE=John Venus;6535229]I think there are ways for Lois and WW to have differences in opinion even outside of Superman. Lois is skeptic, more world weary and a little cynical in contrast to Clark. I can see her wanting to know what this warrior woman on a quest for peace wants. I can see her really wanting to get into Diana's mind and see how she views the world. I can see Lois in her drive creating a little friction between them but nothing that they both can't get over. I can see Diana being immortal and superpowered making Lois feel at least a little conscious of her mortality and strengths as a human.[/QUOTE]
Mm. Absolutely. It should go without saying that the singular crux of any characters' dynamic shouldn't be a dude/love interest. Bechdel's test and all that. I'm fine with Clark being a pretty big elephant in the room between Lois and Diana (he 'is' the common denominator after all, at least until they build a friendship of their own), but it shouldn't be the only thing in the room either.
[QUOTE=Lucas 35;6531432]And what do people think of Kurt Busiek? I found this conversation very interesting
[/QUOTE]
I love him as a writer, and he does decent stuff with Diana individually and on a team.
But he has said at various times that if we were to write a run it would be about her as a character in a mythological world, which is something we need less of, and not more.
Oh also it looks like Busiek isn't working for DC right now. Apparently he works for Image now.
[QUOTE=Alpha;6535609]But he has said at various times that if we were to write a run it would be about her as a character in a mythological world, which is something we need less of, and not more.[/QUOTE]
This is not quite accurate, I think.
I've said Wonder Woman's "wheelhouse" is mythology, just as Superman's is SF and Batman's is crime. But that's not the same thing as saying she wouldn't be on present-day Earth.
Were I to write WW on an ongoing basis, you'd see lots of WW foes who haven't been seen in years, from Dr. Cyber to Minister Blizzard to the queens of the Mirror Kingdom to Angle Man to Mouse Man and more, and the stories would deal with the military-industrial complex, lost civilizations, other dimensions, straight-up supervillains and so on, but would be rooted in her mythological basis.
kdb
[QUOTE=marhawkman;6535708]Oh also it looks like Busiek isn't working for DC right now. Apparently he works for Image now.[/QUOTE]
It's true that I'm not working for DC right now, but all it would take for that to change would be for them to offer me something I said yes to (or for me to pitch them something they said yes to).
At present, I don't have the time, but we've talked about stuff, and when and if my schedule allows, I'm hardly boycotting DC.
kdb
[QUOTE=Kurt Busiek;6535721]This is not quite accurate, I think.
I've said Wonder Woman's "wheelhouse" is mythology, just as Superman's is SF and Batman's is crime. But that's not the same thing as saying she wouldn't be on present-day Earth.
Were I to write WW on an ongoing basis, you'd see lots of WW foes who haven't been seen in years, from Dr. Cyber to Minister Blizzard to the queens of the Mirror Kingdom to Angle Man to Mouse Man and more, and the stories would deal with the military-industrial complex, lost civilizations, other dimensions, straight-up supervillains and so on, but would be rooted in her mythological basis.
kdb[/QUOTE]
Woooow.
I am so hyped for that kind of Wonder Woman story. Im not sure who would have to pitch/offer who in a situation such as that, but I hope one of these days to see your magnificent writing gracing the pages of Wonder Woman.
[QUOTE=Alpha;6535609]But he has said at various times that if we were to write a run it would be about her as a character in a mythological world, which is something we need less of, and not more.[/QUOTE]
That in good is something we absolutely need more of, just among other things though.
[QUOTE=Kurt Busiek;6535721]I've said Wonder Woman's "wheelhouse" is mythology, just as Superman's is SF and Batman's is crime. But that's not the same thing as saying she wouldn't be on present-day Earth.[/QUOTE]
That is true, although i think Wonder Woman lacks especially in modern SF stories, which are also parts of her roots after all.
[QUOTE=Kurt Busiek;6535721]Were I to write WW on an ongoing basis, you'd see lots of WW foes who haven't been seen in years, from Dr. Cyber to Minister Blizzard to the queens of the Mirror Kingdom to Angle Man to Mouse Man and more, and the stories would deal with the military-industrial complex, lost civilizations, other dimensions, straight-up supervillains and so on, but would be rooted in her mythological basis.[/QUOTE]
That sounds awesome, but i think specifically Wonder Woman gets quite often made worse or outright ruined by the editorial and other meddling partys, even if the writer is great and tries their best.
[QUOTE=Kurt Busiek;6535721]This is not quite accurate, I think.
I've said Wonder Woman's "wheelhouse" is mythology, just as Superman's is SF and Batman's is crime. But that's not the same thing as saying she wouldn't be on present-day Earth.
Were I to write WW on an ongoing basis, you'd see lots of WW foes who haven't been seen in years, from Dr. Cyber to Minister Blizzard to the queens of the Mirror Kingdom to Angle Man to Mouse Man and more, and the stories would deal with the military-industrial complex, lost civilizations, other dimensions, straight-up supervillains and so on, but would be rooted in her mythological basis.
kdb[/QUOTE]
Ok fair enough.
You did mention at one point you had a very vague idea for a Superman Secret identity / Batmsn Creature of the night. But with Wonder Woman.
I'm guessing that hasn't been something you've really thpught abput, but is it something that has developed in your mind?
[QUOTE=Kurt Busiek;6535721]This is not quite accurate, I think.
I've said Wonder Woman's "wheelhouse" is mythology, just as Superman's is SF and Batman's is crime. But that's not the same thing as saying she wouldn't be on present-day Earth.
Were I to write WW on an ongoing basis, you'd see lots of WW foes who haven't been seen in years, from Dr. Cyber to Minister Blizzard to the [B]queens of the Mirror Kingdom[/B] to Angle Man to Mouse Man and more, and the stories would deal with the military-industrial complex, lost civilizations, other dimensions, straight-up supervillains and so on, but would be rooted in her mythological basis.
kdb[/QUOTE]
Which character are you referring to?
Google search gives me nothing.
[QUOTE=John Venus;6536042]Which character are you referring to?
Google search gives me nothing.[/QUOTE]
Eh? Thats a reference to the Sun Kingdom/Sun Empire/Land of Mirrors. A golden age creation, it was located within a canyon in the Gobi Desert and they used advanced mirror technology and forcefields to hide themselves from the outside world.
Their main gimmick was that everyone was 'Mirrored' so every child born to them would be identical twins. With their people being ruled by a pair of queens ever since their lands founding.
Kurt Busiek did a Wonder Woman story featuring them and Queen Atomia back in the 1980s.
Hmm..I kinda wonder if they would have counted as Amazons in the modern day...
[QUOTE=Gaius;6531489]Probably wrote one of the only good post-Marston pre-Crisis WW stories with Trina Robbins. Found the other times he's written her to be good.[/QUOTE]
Am I interpreting this accurately? Between Marston in the 40s and Perez in ‘87, Busiek wrote [B]one[/B] of the [B]only[/B] [B]good[/B] WW stories? In forty years?
The bana will be in RH+Outlaws
[img]https://i.ibb.co/KXT7Tjr/16877307153919388-Red-Hood-Outlaws-E50-CAT-S-CRADLE-0114.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=Alpha;6535978]You did mention at one point you had a very vague idea for a Superman Secret identity / Batmsn Creature of the night. But with Wonder Woman.
I'm guessing that hasn't been something you've really thpught about, but is it something that has developed in your mind?[/QUOTE]
No, the trouble there is that I only have half the idea, and until I come up with the other half, there's not enough to work with.
kdb
[QUOTE=Largo161;6536364]Am I interpreting this accurately? Between Marston in the 40s and Perez in ‘87, Busiek wrote [B]one[/B] of the [B]only[/B] [B]good[/B] WW stories? In forty years?[/QUOTE]
I'd point out there that LEGEND OF WONDER WOMAN is either post-Crisis or during-Crisis, since the framing sequence is showing the effect of the Crisis on Paradise Island.
But I'm a big fan of the Sekowsky Wonder Woman, and the period Len Wein was editing it.
And brief bits here and there, like the Teenage Glop from Outer Space, the Astarte/Silver Snake story and various others.
kdb
[QUOTE=Kurt Busiek;6535722]It's true that I'm not working for DC right now, but all it would take for that to change would be for them to offer me something I said yes to (or for me to pitch them something they said yes to).
At present, I don't have the time, but we've talked about stuff, and when and if my schedule allows, I'm hardly boycotting DC.
kdb[/QUOTE]
Ah, cool, I loved your Livewire take and wanna see more sometime :D
[QUOTE=Largo161;6536364]Am I interpreting this accurately? Between Marston in the 40s and Perez in ‘87, Busiek wrote [B]one[/B] of the [B]only[/B] [B]good[/B] WW stories? In forty years?[/QUOTE]
Can only speak for what I've read but I obviously have also not read everything in those years.
Was teetering on the borderline, but yep...I think I'm going to officially add Mark Waid to my Wonder Woman Black List. He really needs to stop including her [I]World's Finest[/I].
And I think Josie Campbell can join the list, too, with [I]Knight Terrors[/I].
Ever growing...
[QUOTE=Kurt Busiek;6535721]
Were I to write WW on an ongoing basis, you'd see lots of WW foes who haven't been seen in years, from Dr. Cyber to Minister Blizzard to the queens of the Mirror Kingdom to Angle Man to Mouse Man and more, and the stories would deal with the military-industrial complex, lost civilizations, other dimensions, straight-up supervillains and so on, but would be rooted in her mythological basis.
kdb[/QUOTE]
I'd check that out. Especially for Mans Angle and Mouse. :p Always wanted to see someone take a real crack at them.
[QUOTE=Guy_McNichts;6537545]Was teetering on the borderline, but yep...I think I'm going to officially add Mark Waid to my Wonder Woman Black List. He really needs to stop including her [I]World's Finest[/I].
And I think Josie Campbell can join the list, too, with [I]Knight Terrors[/I].
Ever growing...[/QUOTE]
Certainly not a fan of when Waid writes her, and he always comes off rather pompous when he tries to explain why he thinks he's never done a good job, but has Waid written her in anything recently?
She’s in World’s Finest as a cameo but I can’t imagine why Guy is getting mad about her recent appearances. She lost to Newamazo in the latest issue, but so did Superman, Supergirl, Martian Manhunter, Batman almost got killed until Supergirl and MM saved him, etc. Nothing there to get worked up over unless a villain who typically beats the entire Legaue beating Diana gets you mad.
[QUOTE=Guy_McNichts;6537545]Was teetering on the borderline, but yep...I think I'm going to officially add Mark Waid to my Wonder Woman Black List. He really needs to stop including her [I]World's Finest[/I].
And I think Josie Campbell can join the list, too, with [I]Knight Terrors[/I].
Ever growing...[/QUOTE]
What happened in World's Finest?
After reading his responses, I just ordered a used copy of the first volume of Mr. Busiek's Trinity series. I know Diana associating with Clark and Bruce period is becoming an increasingly taboo subject on this board, but what was the consensus on that series? Just at a glance it seems to actually be aiming for equal treatment on the characters.
[QUOTE=Vordan;6537643]She’s in World’s Finest as a cameo but I can’t imagine why Guy is getting mad about her recent appearances. She lost to Newamazo in the latest issue, but so did Superman, Supergirl, Martian Manhunter, Batman almost got killed until Supergirl and MM saved him, etc. Nothing there to get worked up over unless a villain who typically beats the entire Legaue beating Diana gets you mad.[/QUOTE]
Doesn't sound like a big deal
I'm not feeling generous. I am sick to death of "use every crayon" writing.
Diana shows up, gets wrecked, and does nothing the rest of the issue. Superman, Flash and Green Lantern keep fighting, while Metamorpho delivers the finishing blow, but Diana contributes absolutely nothing. Nothing.
So, why is she even in the damn story? Why is anyone in this story? It's a Superman/Batman comic. Just be a Superman and Batman comic.
Waid could literally have left her out of this arc entirely and not one goddamn thing would change. So why bother? What was the point? Just like the last time, when he had her turned to mud. As if the plot couldn't have kept going with that crucial bit? What purpose does it serve? Who is it supposed to appeal to?
I'm sick of this writing approach in general. It feels like no one wants to write actual protagonists anymore. They want to write diet team-ups or "the entire universe" by cramming as many characters into each story as possible when most of them don't need to be there. It doesn't serve the plot, and more often than not, it doesn't serve the characters themselves.
I hate it, and I don't care that it could be worse. I know it can be worse. I've seen worse. But that doesn't mean I have to tolerate it. If Waid wants to play in his stupid Silver Age nostalgia corner...fine, have a ball. But leave Wonder Woman out of it.
I just saw scans of the issue. She double teams Amazo with Clark, gets beat up along with Clark, they both go down at the same time, and are struggling to get back up at the same time. While she fades into the crowd after that, she isn't shown as being the worse for the wear at the end.
It's underwhelming and she might as well not have been there, but nobody is going to come away thinking "Wonder Woman sucks" from this issue except insecure Wonder Woman fans. It's totally just....beige. Neither good nor terrible. It's not worth mustering up the energy of getting upset about it.
Is it no longer canon that Superman and Wonder Woman were once in a relationship?
[QUOTE=nj06;6537817]Is it no longer canon that Superman and Wonder Woman were once in a relationship?[/QUOTE]
I can see there being some possible tension ala Post-Crisis but probably not the full-blown relationship it was during the New 52, though if you go by Rucka during Rebirth she was with Clark before getting back with Steve.
[QUOTE=Guy_McNichts;6537691]I'm not feeling generous. I am sick to death of "use every crayon" writing.
Diana shows up, gets wrecked, and does nothing the rest of the issue. Superman, Flash and Green Lantern keep fighting, while Metamorpho delivers the finishing blow, but Diana contributes absolutely nothing. Nothing.
So, why is she even in the damn story? Why is anyone in this story? It's a Superman/Batman comic. Just be a Superman and Batman comic.
Waid could literally have left her out of this arc entirely and not one goddamn thing would change. So why bother? What was the point? Just like the last time, when he had her turned to mud. As if the plot couldn't have kept going with that crucial bit? What purpose does it serve? Who is it supposed to appeal to?
I'm sick of this writing approach in general. It feels like no one wants to write actual protagonists anymore. They want to write diet team-ups or "the entire universe" by cramming as many characters into each story as possible when most of them don't need to be there. It doesn't serve the plot, and more often than not, it doesn't serve the characters themselves.
I hate it, and I don't care that it could be worse. I know it can be worse. I've seen worse. But that doesn't mean I have to tolerate it. If Waid wants to play in his stupid Silver Age nostalgia corner...fine, have a ball. But leave Wonder Woman out of it.[/QUOTE]
Some would argue it's the whole point of having Dan Mora draw it ;).
Eh…Mora’s like Redondo that I can see why others like him but he does nothing for me outside of Klaus.
[QUOTE=Guy_McNichts;6537545]Was teetering on the borderline, but yep...I think I'm going to officially add Mark Waid to my Wonder Woman Black List. He really needs to stop including her [I]World's Finest[/I].
And I think Josie Campbell can join the list, too, with [I]Knight Terrors[/I].
Ever growing...[/QUOTE]
They are at least consistent with how badly they portray her.
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;6537795]I just saw scans of the issue. She double teams Amazo with Clark, gets beat up along with Clark, they both go down at the same time, and are struggling to get back up at the same time. While she fades into the crowd after that, she isn't shown as being the worse for the wear at the end.
It's underwhelming and she might as well not have been there, but nobody is going to come away thinking "Wonder Woman sucks" from this issue except insecure Wonder Woman fans. It's totally just....beige. Neither good nor terrible. It's not worth mustering up the energy of getting upset about it.[/QUOTE]
She was treated as a useless piece of trash yet again. Other characters like Superman, Manhunter etc kept on fighting, and metgamorpho landed the final hit. Diana was down and did nothing, her presence there achived nothing. She always gets it worse than any other A list well known IP in DC, no wway to deny it at this point.
Jesus, Joseph, and Marry…
I don’t like WW living in a shared universe as much of the rest of you but this is not even worth the time it takes to write these posts, folks.
There’s a WW issue where Daddy Zeus is a plot point that came out today, apparently. Tom Taylor looks to have another terrible DC elseworlds book coming. Save your energy and get mad at those.
[QUOTE=Gaius;6537870]Jesus, Joseph, and Marry…
I don’t like WW living in a shared universe as much of the rest of you but this is not even worth the time it takes to write these posts, folks.
There’s a WW issue where Daddy Zeus is a plot point that came out today, apparently. Tom Taylor looks to have another terrible DC elseworlds book coming. Save your energy and get mad at those.[/QUOTE]
What comic are you talking about?
[QUOTE=Gaius;6537870]Jesus, Joseph, and Marry…
I don’t like WW living in a shared universe as much of the rest of you but this is not even worth the time it takes to write these posts, folks.
There’s a WW issue where Daddy Zeus is a plot point that came out today, apparently. Tom Taylor looks to have another terrible DC elseworlds book coming. Save your energy and get mad at those.[/QUOTE]
Yes, this is a "pick your battles" situation if there ever was one.
And Daddy Zeus in her own comic today is proof that the shared universe isn't always the problem. Sometimes the call is coming from inside the house, so to speak.
She's been part of a shared universe for 80 years so no one should be surprised that she shows up in other books and isnt crucial to the plot. Of all her appearances this is the most innocent. She and every hero got their asses kicked...NEWS AT 11.
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;6537663]After reading his responses, I just ordered a used copy of the first volume of Mr. Busiek's Trinity series. I know Diana associating with Clark and Bruce period is becoming an increasingly taboo subject on this board, but what was the consensus on that series? Just at a glance it seems to actually be aiming for equal treatment on the characters. [/QUOTE]
It's been a long time but I liked it - definitely my favorite Trinity series. Much like Gail Simone he did have to deal with some of the goofy stuff that was happening in WW continuity at the time (the whole Agent Diana Prince "spins to get her powers" thing that never made sense to me because she could just, like, not spin back...) but it's very much a deep dive into what the Clark/Diana/Bruce dynamic is and why they're important, and he's able to convey what makes them contrast without having to write any of them out of character.
Also major props to Busiek for being in the very select group of people who've written every member of the Trinity very well. The only others that immediately come to mind are Greg Rucka, Darwyn Cooke, and Len Wein.
[QUOTE=bardkeep;6537964]It's been a long time but I liked it - definitely my favorite Trinity series. Much like Gail Simone he did have to deal with some of the goofy stuff that was happening in WW continuity at the time (the whole Agent Diana Prince "spins to get her powers" thing that never made sense to me because she could just, like, not spin back...) but it's very much a deep dive into what the Clark/Diana/Bruce dynamic is and why they're important, and he's able to convey what makes them contrast without having to write any of them out of character.
Also major props to Busiek for being in the very select group of people who've written every member of the Trinity very well. The only others that immediately come to mind are Greg Rucka, Darwyn Cooke, and Len Wein.[/QUOTE]
How would you rate Francis Manapul?
As divisive as Cloonrad became the one universal compliment they've received was writing a good Trinity story.
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;6537663]After reading his responses, I just ordered a used copy of the first volume of Mr. Busiek's Trinity series. I know Diana associating with Clark and Bruce period is becoming an increasingly taboo subject on this board, but what was the consensus on that series? Just at a glance it seems to actually be aiming for equal treatment on the characters.
[/QUOTE]
I don't know what the consensus is, but I certainly enjoyed it. Wonder Womans mythos was not portrayed as strongly as Superman and Batmans, though largely due to the fact that this was working with the status quo of 2008, where Wonder Woman wasnt as firmly established with her supporting cast of the moment.
Without spoiling anything, I will say it has one issue that exemplifies why Wonder Woman is so gosh darn important and why the world is lesser without her there.