Wonder Woman - General Discussion

[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;6653563]WW and Donna cameo in WF
[img]https://i.ibb.co/0JbmtR9/Screenshot-2023-11-21-082934.png[/img][/QUOTE]
That's basically her Rebirth costume with a shoulder strap.

[QUOTE=Frontier;6653638]That's basically her Rebirth costume with a shoulder strap.[/QUOTE]

So true, lol. They gave Donna a similar shoulder strap. Same arm too.

[QUOTE=Zagre;6653574]World's Finest
Though before anyone gets too hopeful or too upset about it, this is the Wodner Woman of the Kingdom Come timeline and she appears to [spoil]be mind controlled in this chapter[/spoil][/QUOTE]
Sheesh. I don't think Waid ever had much good-will when it came to Wonder Woman, but it's a little remarkable that he seems determined to torch what little there was with this series.


By the way...I suspect the tendency of artists to put Diana and related characters like Donna in single-shoulder armor, or armor that covers half of their chest, is supposed to be a nod to the old myths where the Amazons would cut one of their breasts off.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't find it clever or visually appealing. Frankly, I think it looks stupid.

[QUOTE=Guy_McNichts;6653848]Sheesh. I don't think Waid ever had much good-will when it came to Wonder Woman, but it's a little remarkable that he seems determined to torch what little there was with this series.


By the way...I suspect the tendency of artists to put Diana and related characters like Donna in single-shoulder armor, or armor that covers half of their chest, is supposed to be a nod to the old myths where the Amazons would cut one of their breasts off.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't find it clever or visually appealing. Frankly, I think it looks stupid.[/QUOTE]
It was a fun moment in Rebirth when Barbara called that out in story of what a silly Greek paranoia fueled myth that was. I think even KSD made fun of that in an interview about Historia.

I could be wrong but I believe having single shoulder armor does have some practical purpose in that it'll defend the place annopponent is most likely to strike in a sword fight. Granted you're also usually wearing more than just a shoulder pad and not a bathing suit to defend your other parts of the body.

Anyways KC-related unpopular opinion but I think the loin cloth variation of the WW outfit is as bad as the thong look from the same era.

[QUOTE=Guy_McNichts;6653848]Sheesh. I don't think Waid ever had much good-will when it came to Wonder Woman, but it's a little remarkable that he seems determined to torch what little there was with this series.


By the way...I suspect the tendency of artists to put Diana and related characters like Donna in single-shoulder armor, or armor that covers half of their chest, is supposed to be a nod to the old myths where the Amazons would cut one of their breasts off.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't find it clever or visually appealing. Frankly, I think it looks stupid.[/QUOTE]

Okay to clear this up

[spoil] EVERYONE IS MIND-CONTROLLED IN THIS ISSUE. The twist is that the evil deity Gog has somehow came to the Kingdom Come world and has taken over all the superheroes, INCLUDING Batman and Superman who are seen first bowing to Gog, showing they are indeed compromised like everyone else. Diana only shows up in the end group shot with everyone else.[/spoil]

So you can get off your "Oh no Diana is being mistreated again" high horse.

[QUOTE=Mantis-Ray;6653963]Okay to clear this up

[spoil] EVERYONE IS MIND-CONTROLLED IN THIS ISSUE. The twist is that the evil deity Gog has somehow came to the Kingdom Come world and has taken over all the superheroes, INCLUDING Batman and Superman who are seen first bowing to Gog, showing they are indeed compromised like everyone else. Diana only shows up in the end group shot with everyone else.[/spoil]

So you can get off your "Oh no Diana is being mistreated again" high horse.[/QUOTE]

Now you know that not how it works lol

[QUOTE=Holt;6651315][IMG] https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F_OnGgrWkAAPLkE?format=jpg&name=large[/IMG]

The McFarlane classic Wonder Woman goes up for order November 22.[/QUOTE]

And the chase variant.

[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F_jcUBzXIAE6tEU?format=jpg&name=large[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Mantis-Ray;6653963]Okay to clear this up

[spoil] EVERYONE IS MIND-CONTROLLED IN THIS ISSUE. The twist is that the evil deity Gog has somehow came to the Kingdom Come world and has taken over all the superheroes, INCLUDING Batman and Superman who are seen first bowing to Gog, showing they are indeed compromised like everyone else. Diana only shows up in the end group shot with everyone else.[/spoil]

So you can get off your "Oh no Diana is being mistreated again" high horse.[/QUOTE]

The difference is that it is all Wonder Woman gets in this series. When other heroes (especially Batman and occasionally Superman) appear in other characters' stories, they get something cool to do, but not Wonder Woman obviously.

Flash got a cool moment in this run, and so did a a lot of other heroes. Diana meanwhile only got the mind controlled part. Well that, and her entire rogues gallery being defeated by the Flash in one go.

[QUOTE=Laser_Man;6654981]The difference is that it is all Wonder Woman gets in this series. When other heroes (especially Batman and occasionally Superman) appear in other characters' stories, they get something cool to do, but not Wonder Woman obviously.

Flash got a cool moment in this run, and so did a a lot of other heroes. Diana meanwhile only got the mind controlled part. Well that, and her entire rogues gallery being defeated by the Flash in one go.[/QUOTE]

What the Hell are you talking about? The group shot is filled with a ton of characters, Aquaman, Etrigan, Blue Beetle, Peacemaker, Green Lanterns, Doctor Fate, what the fuck does it matter if Diana happens to be among them? The first arc already had Hal Jordan only there to be mind-controlled by the badguy and to serve as a power-up for Superman and Batman.

So again stop martyring Diana for no reason. She's just apart of a group shot with a ton of characters, THATS IT.

Even then Diana already had a moment last arc where she did a little trip with Robin to help figure out the mystery behind Newmazo. Its not major but hey its better than what Hal Jordan got.

[QUOTE=Mantis-Ray;6655004]What the Hell are you talking about? The group shot is filled with a ton of characters, Aquaman, Etrigan, Blue Beetle, Peacemaker, Green Lanterns, Doctor Fate, what the fuck does it matter if Diana happens to be among them? The first arc already had Hal Jordan only there to be mind-controlled by the badguy and to serve as a power-up for Superman and Batman.

So again stop martyring Diana for no reason. She's just apart of a group shot with a ton of characters, THATS IT.

Even then Diana already had a moment last arc where she did a little trip with Robin to help figure out the mystery behind Newmazo. Its not major but hey its better than what Hal Jordan got.[/QUOTE]

Waid even likes Hal, while he struggles with Diana.

And I think Waid has already taken shots at KC Superman in this story, not KC Diana

We're not getting anything stellar related to Wonder Woman in WF (aside from Donna in the spinoff), but it's gonna be exhausting to listen to WW fans meltdown every time she so much as makes a cameo.

[QUOTE=Mantis-Ray;6655004]
Even then Diana already had a moment last arc where she did a little trip with Robin to help figure out the mystery behind Newmazo. Its not major but hey its better than what Hal Jordan got.[/QUOTE]
As long as we're keeping score, that same first arc featured Diana getting casually turned to mud. And after her moment in the last arc, she was promptly beaten to pulp by Newmazo.
Plus her rogues treated like jokes, and now her KC counterpart is just another mind-controlled chump among the others...

Waid could just [B]stop[/B] including Wonder Woman and her world in this goddamn book, especially since he's admitted he doesn't get her, but apparently that's too much to ask.

[QUOTE=Guy_McNichts;6655088]As long as we're keeping score, that same first arc featured Diana getting casually turned to mud.[/QUOTE]

Perez did the same thing.

[QUOTE=Guy_McNichts;6655088]And after her moment in the last arc, she was promptly beaten to pulp by Newmazo.[/QUOTE]

Superman was getting beaten to a pulp right along with her.

[QUOTE=Guy_McNichts;6655088]Plus her rogues treated like jokes[/QUOTE]

That's only a problem in the case of Cheetah. Much as I may love them, I have an easy time believing Dr. Poison, Zara and Blue Snowman being taken out by the Flash if they weren't expecting they'd have to deal with him. The WW books themselves are seriously way behind in showing why they are threats to Diana too.

[QUOTE=Guy_McNichts;6655088]and now her KC counterpart is just another mind-controlled chump among the others...[/QUOTE]

These "others" also including the counterparts to the book's stars.

[QUOTE=Guy_McNichts;6655088]Waid could just [B]stop[/B] including Wonder Woman and her world in this goddamn book, especially since he's admitted he doesn't get her, but apparently that's too much to ask.[/QUOTE]

Why don't you just ignore the book entirely?

[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;6655104]Perez did the same thing.



[B]Superman was getting beaten to a pulp right along with her.[/B]



[B]That's only a problem in the case of Cheetah. Much as I may love them, I have an easy time believing Dr. Poison, Zara and Blue Snowman being taken out by the Flash if they weren't expecting they'd have to deal with him. The WW books themselves are seriously way behind in showing why they are threats to Diana too. [/B]



These "others" also including the counterparts to the book's stars.



[B]Why don't you just ignore the book entirely?[/B][/QUOTE]

Perez was a grea WW writer thaty sctually put a lot of effort into showing respect to WW. Waid is the exact opposite.

Superman and others put up a better fight. They ksept o fighting. WW was down and stayed down.

Her whole rogue is constantly treated like trash. Cheetah included. And this still happening is the problem.

Why don't you try to avoid making up excuses for crummy writers that treat WW like trash?

I gotta go with Siege, I wish Waid wouldn't include WW in his stories if he doesn't like the character but I also wouldn't be aware of this if people didn't bring it here since I don't care about World's Finest.

I was the same way with Taylor and it was just healthier to stop paying attention to his crap.

[QUOTE=Gaius;6655354]I gotta go with Siege, I wish Waid wouldn't include WW in his stories if he doesn't like the character but I also wouldn't be aware of this if people didn't bring it here since I don't care about World's Finest.

I was the same way with Taylor and it was just healthier to stop paying attention to his crap.[/QUOTE]

I had a stronger sense of dread about the WW fanbase reaction to her cameo than anything I sense coming down the pipe in the book itself. And expectations are low for that.

Villainy Inc was the low point so far, but the edge is taken off when you realize that Dan Mora probably just really wanted to draw them. There wasn't any malicious agenda beyond that. Same with Dr. Cyber and the Invisible jet making cameos in the last book

[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;6655077]Waid even likes Hal, while he struggles with Diana.

[B]And I think Waid has already taken shots at KC Superman in this story, not KC Diana
[/B]
We're not getting anything stellar related to Wonder Woman in WF (aside from Donna in the spinoff), but it's gonna be exhausting to listen to WW fans meltdown every time she so much as makes a cameo.[/QUOTE]

That is actually the case here yeah. The story starts with Prime Supes and Bats getting a look at KC Bats, Supes, and Magog at the mass funeral/graveyard at the ending of KC. Supes is effectively horrified and left with a very negative impression of KC Superman, thinking he must be a terrible hero to let things happen like this.

To the point Batman has to calm Superman down from getting too worked up over thinking about KC Supes failures and when they meet during a battle with Thunderboy/Thunderman, Prime Superman actually makes a comment along the lines of "So you are capable of saving someone like an actual hero".

So yeah a lot of shots are being taken at KC Superman, while KC Diana is left clean.

I have commented on my disdain for Waid's Wonder Woman multiple times, but this single panel is not something to flip out over. Maybe next issue yeah, but not this.
And with the exception of (maybe Barbara) Cheetah all of those villains could be taken out easily by the Flash. Even though I would prefer if he didn't use them.

Wonders rocking the ponytail
[img]https://i.ibb.co/wQvnHgX/Be-Funky-collageqqssaws.jpg[/img]

Hi all, it's been a hella long time but I finally released the third episode of my Wonder Woman deep dive videos, this one covering the last of the 60s, leading into to the Mod Era and all its groovy nonsense and all the ~discourse~ that entails :D

[URL="https://youtu.be/nOxVu9nbdrU?si=y8w03o7EOrQLz0dX"]https://youtu.be/nOxVu9nbdrU?si=y8w03o7EOrQLz0dX[/URL]

Hope you enjoy!

[img]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/T3u8qMEHPp_nDKN0rYjOim3fHCeRvZQIUpK6mMPIJ0aj8yLTdKYhB-PmfontIb3xmPKw9G2Jb0LRZ47IbE9hfBMX3qttZL8psWcOFVds7YYGS9fjCt0m-PfqKhcLRR1IVEjBT1wpQg=s1600?rhlupa=MjYwMTo0ODQ6ODAwMzpiNjAwOjlkNToyOTc3Ojg0MzU6YTBlNw&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzExOS4wLjAuMCBTYWZhcmkvNTM3LjM2[/img]

[QUOTE=BrianWilly;6657791]Hi all, it's been a hella long time but I finally released the third episode of my Wonder Woman deep dive videos, this one covering the last of the 60s, leading into to the Mod Era and all its groovy nonsense and all the ~discourse~ that entails :D

[URL="https://youtu.be/nOxVu9nbdrU?si=y8w03o7EOrQLz0dX"]https://youtu.be/nOxVu9nbdrU?si=y8w03o7EOrQLz0dX[/URL]

Hope you enjoy![/QUOTE]

I love a good deepdive, ill have to check it out

[QUOTE=BrianWilly;6657791]Hi all, it's been a hella long time but I finally released the third episode of my Wonder Woman deep dive videos, this one covering the last of the 60s, leading into to the Mod Era and all its groovy nonsense and all the ~discourse~ that entails :D

[URL="https://youtu.be/nOxVu9nbdrU?si=y8w03o7EOrQLz0dX"]https://youtu.be/nOxVu9nbdrU?si=y8w03o7EOrQLz0dX[/URL]

Hope you enjoy![/QUOTE]

You're doing God's work!

[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;6657528]Wonders rocking the ponytail
[img]https://i.ibb.co/wQvnHgX/Be-Funky-collageqqssaws.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]

They wear it well.

(I really loved that Jen Bartel one in FS).

[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;6657528]Wonders rocking the ponytail
[img]https://i.ibb.co/wQvnHgX/Be-Funky-collageqqssaws.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]

Precious Ponys one and all, lol!

[QUOTE=BrianWilly;6657791]Hi all, it's been a hella long time but I finally released the third episode of my Wonder Woman deep dive videos, this one covering the last of the 60s, leading into to the Mod Era and all its groovy nonsense and all the ~discourse~ that entails :D

[URL="https://youtu.be/nOxVu9nbdrU?si=y8w03o7EOrQLz0dX"]https://youtu.be/nOxVu9nbdrU?si=y8w03o7EOrQLz0dX[/URL]

Hope you enjoy![/QUOTE]

I will definitely take a look when I have more time.

[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;6657993][img]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/T3u8qMEHPp_nDKN0rYjOim3fHCeRvZQIUpK6mMPIJ0aj8yLTdKYhB-PmfontIb3xmPKw9G2Jb0LRZ47IbE9hfBMX3qttZL8psWcOFVds7YYGS9fjCt0m-PfqKhcLRR1IVEjBT1wpQg=s1600?rhlupa=MjYwMTo0ODQ6ODAwMzpiNjAwOjlkNToyOTc3Ojg0MzU6YTBlNw&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzExOS4wLjAuMCBTYWZhcmkvNTM3LjM2[/img]
[/QUOTE]

Ah, the old "Wonder Words"! I remember them.

[URL="https://grantmorrison.substack.com/p/2811-wonder-woman-earth-one-annotations"]Morrison posted some Earth One annotations on substack - should be free to read.[/URL]

[QUOTE=Hypo;6659292][URL="https://grantmorrison.substack.com/p/2811-wonder-woman-earth-one-annotations"]Morrison posted some Earth One annotations on substack - should be free to read.[/URL][/QUOTE]

Whelp, reactions to this should be interesting lol.

Morrison's thought processes make for an insightful read. I don't agree with everything they say, but I do see the merit of some of it.

[QUOTE]The result would turn out to be one of my least popular pieces of writing, described as ‘woke nonsense’, ‘lefty fascism’, ‘misogynistic’ and ‘hateful sexist, misandristic propaganda’!..[/QUOTE]

Oh now, that's just absurd.

Earth One wishes it were woke.

[QUOTE=Agent Z;6659425]Oh now, that's just absurd.

Earth One wishes it were woke.[/QUOTE]

Hasn't presented people from making that criticism.

The reactions to it have been hyperbolic to the extreme coming from multiple angles.

[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;6659437]Hasn't presented people from making that criticism.
[/QUOTE]

They're wrong.

[QUOTE=Agent Z;6659442]They're wrong.[/QUOTE]

They are. But some of the others are up for debate too.

[QUOTE=Hypo;6659292][URL="https://grantmorrison.substack.com/p/2811-wonder-woman-earth-one-annotations"]Morrison posted some Earth One annotations on substack - should be free to read.[/URL][/QUOTE]

Definitely an interesting read. I'm curious to know if Morrison went into it knowing their very specific approach to the occult/Kabbalah through Wonder Woman pastiche was already done by Alan Moore not once, but twice (Glory and Promethea - Promethea transcended the pastiche, but the idea for the book started with Glory).

I think it also touches on a problem I had with Earth One. Really thematically unfocused. They wanted to explore occult themes, Marston's ideology (somehow as both straight take and critique), modern feminism, misandry, and radical politics and all of it mixed into a self-contradictory, jumbled, and at times outright offensive mess, especially when they tried to incorporate race in the mix.

[QUOTE=bardkeep;6659477]Definitely an interesting read. I'm curious to know if Morrison went into it knowing their very specific approach to the occult/Kabbalah through Wonder Woman pastiche was already done by Alan Moore not once, but twice (Glory and Promethea - Promethea transcended the pastiche, but the idea for the book started with Glory).

I think it also touches on a problem I had with Earth One. Really thematically unfocused. They wanted to explore occult themes, Marston's ideology (somehow as both straight take and critique), modern feminism, misandry, and radical politics and all of it mixed into a self-contradictory, jumbled, and at times outright offensive mess, especially when they tried to incorporate race in the mix.[/QUOTE]

I wonder if an ongoing run the length of their Batman run would have been better suited to tackle their ideas. A co-author may be good too. I'd actually kill to have Morrison and Jimenez do that together.

A trilogy of one shots is not enough space to explore all that, so like you say it become a jumbled mess. One I still enjoy as it's own weird little side thing that isn't disrupting anything, and has some great isolated scenes, but they are right that it's the weakest of their mainstream work.

[I][B]Hemal Jhaveri: I want to take a minute to acknowledge that, for a lot of people, I am in the inner sanctum. [Points to Wonder Woman photo on the wall.] Holy moly. That is gorgeous.

Zack Snyder:[/B] That’s the original. My friend Steve Berkman took this before we hired Patty [Patty Jenkins, who directed the two Wonder Woman films].

[B]Wow, do people know this exists?
[/B]
The dorks know it exists. When I started it, I wanted a Wonder Woman that was not necessarily naive. Not necessarily, like, a virgin. Actually, there’s one line in the Wonder Woman movie that I originally wrote. When they’re on the boat and talking about, like, the treatises on sexual pleasure, she says [to Steve Trevor], “You wouldn’t like it because it concludes that men, though important for reproduction, are not necessary for pleasure.” That was my contribution.
[/I]
[url]https://www.wired.com/story/rebel-moon-director-zack-snyder-on-violence-loss-and-extreme-fandom/[/url]

[QUOTE=Agent Z;6659425]Oh now, that's just absurd.

Earth One wishes it were woke.[/QUOTE]

I appreciate that they're willing to admit it's one of their least popular pieces of writing. Earth One is really mediocre and not even remotely close to Morrison's other work.

[QUOTE=Last Son of Krypton;6659493][I][B]Hemal Jhaveri: I want to take a minute to acknowledge that, for a lot of people, I am in the inner sanctum. [Points to Wonder Woman photo on the wall.] Holy moly. That is gorgeous.

Zack Snyder:[/B] That’s the original. My friend Steve Berkman took this before we hired Patty [Patty Jenkins, who directed the two Wonder Woman films].

[B]Wow, do people know this exists?
[/B]
The dorks know it exists. When I started it, I wanted a Wonder Woman that was not necessarily naive. Not necessarily, like, a virgin. Actually, there’s one line in the Wonder Woman movie that I originally wrote. When they’re on the boat and talking about, like, the treatises on sexual pleasure, she says [to Steve Trevor], “You wouldn’t like it because it concludes that men, though important for reproduction, are not necessary for pleasure.” That was my contribution.
[/I]
[url]https://www.wired.com/story/rebel-moon-director-zack-snyder-on-violence-loss-and-extreme-fandom/[/url][/QUOTE]

Ah yes because nothing says "im not naive nor a virgin" quite like severed heads lol
[Img]https://www.denofgeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/wonder-woman-heads-zack-snyder-warner.jpg?fit=1200%2C680[/img]

[QUOTE=Hypo;6659292][URL="https://grantmorrison.substack.com/p/2811-wonder-woman-earth-one-annotations"]Morrison posted some Earth One annotations on substack - should be free to read.[/URL][/QUOTE]

Extremely excited to read this, I’ve loved Morrison’s annotations for Multiveristy and Superman & The Authority, this should be an interesting read. If they’re doing all three books I can’t wait to see what their interpretation of the ending of Book 3 stands for. It’s amusing to read Morrison call out how Earth One failed to be an Ultimate DC because everyone just went and did their own thing, that’s on editorial.

At least we got Earth One Etta out of it.

[QUOTE=Last Son of Krypton;6659493][I][B]Hemal Jhaveri: I want to take a minute to acknowledge that, for a lot of people, I am in the inner sanctum. [Points to Wonder Woman photo on the wall.] Holy moly. That is gorgeous.

Zack Snyder:[/B] That’s the original. My friend Steve Berkman took this before we hired Patty [Patty Jenkins, who directed the two Wonder Woman films].

[B]Wow, do people know this exists?
[/B]
The dorks know it exists. When I started it, I wanted a Wonder Woman that was not necessarily naive. Not necessarily, like, a virgin. Actually, there’s one line in the Wonder Woman movie that I originally wrote. When they’re on the boat and talking about, like, the treatises on sexual pleasure, she says [to Steve Trevor], “You wouldn’t like it because it concludes that men, though important for reproduction, are not necessary for pleasure.” That was my contribution.
[/I]
[url]https://www.wired.com/story/rebel-moon-director-zack-snyder-on-violence-loss-and-extreme-fandom/[/url][/QUOTE]

Nothing new here.

[QUOTE=Frontier;6659708]At least we got Earth One Etta out of it.[/QUOTE]

Best Etta I’ve read other than Marston.