Wonder Woman - General Discussion

[QUOTE=BiteTheBullet;5646183]Are we trying to make excuses on why Synder, or Whedon for that matter, had the entire Justice League job out to Superman?

This is why I tend to be so negative with respect to Wonder Woman and that is because she gets no respect. We are even trying to give reasons why the Synder cut stayed the same even with reshoots and special effects added. Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't some of the actors like the Flash come back to shoot some scenes? Sounds like if Synder really wanted to, they could have had Cavill and Gadot back.

Let us stop making excuses and try to SHOUT out as best as we can about the disrespect that Wonder Woman gets![/QUOTE]


Everyone who was in the post credit scenes were the people brought in for the reshoots.

I’m not making excuses for Snyder’s creative choices, we all know that whole fight scene existed to show that the world lives or dies by Superman being a hero or a villain, that no one could stop him if he got serious. But saying he could fix it in the [I]Snyder Cut[/I] just sounds like ignorance in the process of film making.

Even if Snyder wanted Cavil to come back, I’m not sure if WB would have let him.

And I am definitely not making excuses for Whedon, who we all know had the mentality of Wonder Woman being “put in her place” back when he wrote that screen place years ago. If anyone could have changed the fight scene, it was him.

[QUOTE=I'm a Fish;5646214]Everyone who was in the post credit scenes were the people brought in for the reshoots.

I’m not making excuses for Snyder’s creative choices, we all know that whole fight scene existed to show that the world lives or dies by Superman being a hero or a villain, that no one could stop him if he got serious. But saying he could fix it in the [I]Snyder Cut[/I] just sounds like ignorance in the process of film making.

Even if Snyder wanted Cavil to come back, I’m not sure if WB would have let him.

And I am definitely not making excuses for Whedon, who we all know had the mentality of Wonder Woman being “put in her place” back when he wrote that screen place years ago. If anyone could have changed the fight scene, it was him.[/QUOTE]

Wasn't Cavill in the post credit scene as Evil Superman? Sounds like all they were missing was Gadot. If Synder really wanted to, they could have changed the fight scene and at least had the characters show up much more than the jobbers that they were!

[QUOTE=Vordan;5645854]People said Aquaman ripped off Black Panther and people will say Namor is a rip off of Aquaman, but that didn’t matter at all for Arthur’s billion dollar box office and I doubt it will affect BP2. If they want to do the contest they can do it, not like BP invented the concept of “fighting tournament” ;)

If there are women involved in creating the show from the ground up, then perhaps they’d go with the classic origin, but I expect the execs would want the Zeus tie because Diana’s parentage is something that pretty much all the other forms of WW media have synergized on.

The thing to remember about JL is: they had no f****** clue the WW movie would be a success, it was assumed BvS was going to be a massive success and Batman would be the star character of the DCEU. Superman was going to be the big villain alongside Darkseid so Snyder was going to show why him turning would basically assure Darkseid of success. Yes Snyder’s an idiot, but [B][I]nobody[/I][/B] saw Batman and Superman being [I]hated[/I] and [I]mocked[/I] while WW was the sole breakout star. Nobody saw a world where WW, Aquaman, and Shazam were more successful than Batman and Superman. Not excusing anything, you all know how much I despise Snyder and his creative choices, but my point is the decision to have Supes beat Wondy came [B][I]before[/I][/B] her movie released and she was a huge hit. If another JL movie gets made, I’m sure she will be given much more respect (not that I ever expect another JL movie to get made anytime soon).

For what it’s worth I’d happily have DCEU Superman and Batman killed off and have Diana as the sole leader of a new JL. Hell that’s pretty much what’s going to happen if the rumors about Affleck and Cavill getting erased are correct.[/QUOTE]

Sure, if I had any power over a WW adaptation, I would totally advocate for including the contest, Amazonium, Queen Clea and the Atlantis stuff, Villainy Inc, even if people accuse it of being a rip off, since they are WW lore anyway but we all know WB execs are more fickle.

The daughter of Zeus stuff will probably be gone though. Historia is not going to use it. I can see it being ditched in future adaptations since nearly everybody, including the JL Action showmakers tip toe around it anyway.

[QUOTE=BiteTheBullet;5646183]Are we trying to make excuses on why Synder, or Whedon for that matter, had the entire Justice League job out to Superman?

This is why I tend to be so negative with respect to Wonder Woman and that is because she gets no respect. We are even trying to give reasons why the Synder cut stayed the same even with reshoots and special effects added. Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't some of the actors like the Flash come back to shoot some scenes? Sounds like if Synder really wanted to, they could have had Cavill and Gadot back.

Let us stop making excuses and try to SHOUT out as best as we can about the disrespect that Wonder Woman gets![/QUOTE]

Okay. Post that on twitter then. Do you actually think people at Warner Brothers or even the editorial staff of DC comics are reading these forum discussions? You are complaning to other fans, not to the actual people in charge.

[QUOTE=BiteTheBullet;5646243]Wasn't Cavill in the post credit scene as Evil Superman? Sounds like all they were missing was Gadot. If Synder really wanted to, they could have changed the fight scene and at least had the characters show up much more than the jobbers that they were![/QUOTE]

Oh yeah, evil Superman was there for a second. But that wasn’t a reshoot, that was re-used footage, Henry Cavil confirmed he would not be doing any reshoots back when the [I]Snyder Cut[/I] was announced.

To edit that much of the fight scene, they would have to re-do large parts of it. It would take months, which means a lot of money for fully CGI animated fight sequences that I doubt WB would have spend money on. Plus the whole movie was being advertised as the “original vision” of [I]Justice League[/I], warts and all. To WB that would sound like a waste of money to edit that big and expensive of a scene, especially when it goes against its advertising.

Like its been stated majority of the Snyder cut was already filmed. Gal and Henry had nothing to do with it, there was no changing to the story, you could only add on to it. The 70mill was to complete the CGI and the cliffhanger because Snyder likes to waste money. Even Joss only had so much time to finish his cut and he couldnt reshoot the entire thing, he was only able to make minor changes as even when he took over for the RESHOOTS, the cast wasnt available all at once. Gal never filmed any of her Joss scenes with the other cast.

[QUOTE=BiteTheBullet;5646035]Wonder Woman still jobbed just as hard in the Synder cut as in the Whedon cut. Time had passed since the first Wonder Woman movie and Synder doing his 4 hour cut, but he didn't change a thing about the Justice League jobbing out to Superman. If you really think she would have fared better then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell to you.[/QUOTE]

Well yeah, Zack’s a hack and his Cut was never going to be “good”. But the Cut was billed as his original vision restored, they didn’t go and change other scenes either. They added that terrible epilogue and finished the CGI, so that Snyder fans could get his original vision as he shot it back in 2017. That it still sucks is because Snyder’s plans for the DCEU were always terrible and we’re better off for his departure, but the Cut is not connected to Patty’s take anyway considering how murder-happy Snyder makes Diana. It’s a crappy Elseworld take like Injustice, hopefully the last time Snyder will get to mess up the DC characters.

And if another JL movie ever gets made they pretty much HAVE to center her lol. Affleck and Cavill seem to be out, so Diana is the only OG Trinity member left to lead this new all female Trinity they’re building.

[QUOTE=Vordan;5646726]Well yeah, Zack’s a hack and his Cut was never going to be “good”. But the Cut was billed as his original vision restored, they didn’t go and change other scenes either. They added that terrible epilogue and finished the CGI, so that Snyder fans could get his original vision as he shot it back in 2017. That it still sucks is because Snyder’s plans for the DCEU were always terrible and we’re better off for his departure, but the Cut is not connected to Patty’s take anyway considering how murder-happy Snyder makes Diana. It’s a crappy Elseworld take like Injustice, hopefully the last time Snyder will get to mess up the DC characters.

And if another JL movie ever gets made they pretty much HAVE to center her lol. Affleck and Cavill seem to be out, so Diana is [B]the only OG Trinity member left to lead this new all female Trinity they’re building[/B].[/QUOTE]

I am not sure if that is true, but I definitely WOULD NOT mind a new DCEU with an all-female Trinity starring Gal Gadot, Leslie Grace (the newly announced DCEU Batgirl), and Sasha Calle (Supergirl).

[QUOTE=Vordan;5646726]Well yeah, Zack’s a hack and his Cut was never going to be “good”. But the Cut was billed as his original vision restored, they didn’t go and change other scenes either. They added that terrible epilogue and finished the CGI, so that Snyder fans could get his original vision as he shot it back in 2017. That it still sucks is because Snyder’s plans for the DCEU were always terrible and we’re better off for his departure, but the Cut is not connected to Patty’s take anyway considering how murder-happy Snyder makes Diana. It’s a crappy Elseworld take like Injustice, hopefully the last time Snyder will get to mess up the DC characters.

[B]And if another JL movie ever gets made they pretty much HAVE to center her lol. Affleck and Cavill seem to be out, so Diana is the only OG Trinity member left to lead this new all female Trinity they’re building.[/B][/QUOTE]

I highly doubt it. I can't have faith in DC and WB anymore when it comes to WW.

[QUOTE=mystical41;5646826]I highly doubt it. I can't have faith in DC and WB anymore when it comes to WW.[/QUOTE]

Given how bad WW84 was, they should instead focus on good writing (not you Patty Jenkins) and truly showcase a good story and show her power!

[QUOTE=HestiasHearth;5646777]I am not sure if that is true, but I definitely WOULD NOT mind a new DCEU with an all-female Trinity starring Gal Gadot, Leslie Grace (the newly announced DCEU Batgirl), and Sasha Calle (Supergirl).[/QUOTE]
We’ll see. Cavill is still kind of unknown, there are still rumors that maybe he’ll get a MoS2 (WB is denying them for right now), but Affleck is out after Flash. Right now the only active “Trinity” members will be WW, Supergirl, and Batgirl. Battison is off in his own corner and Keaton will just be a mentor to Batgirl per the rumors.
[QUOTE=mystical41;5646826]I highly doubt it. I can't have faith in DC and WB anymore when it comes to WW.[/QUOTE]
I’m in the same boat with regards to Superman on the film side anyway (and the video game side with NRS at least). But they’re at least planning a third movie and maybe they can recover from WW84’s missteps.

Pretty sure the "Trinity" is dunzo in the movies. I don't know if Gal will do cameo's after the WW 3.

[QUOTE=Vordan;5646882]We’ll see. Cavill is still kind of unknown, there are still rumors that maybe he’ll get a MoS2 (WB is denying them for right now), but Affleck is out after Flash. Right now the only active “Trinity” members will be WW, Supergirl, and Batgirl. Battison is off in his own corner and Keaton will just be a mentor to Batgirl per the rumors.

I’m in the same boat with regards to Superman on the film side anyway (and the video game side with NRS at least). But they’re at least planning a third movie [B]and maybe they can recover from WW84’s missteps.[/B][/QUOTE]

Not with patty jenkins and geoff involved.

I was surprised that Wonder Woman Black & Gold sold better than the regular Wonder Woman book, better than Superman himself. The regular Wonder Woman wasn't far behind, and sold better than Flash, Teen Titans, Swamp Thing, Green Lantern, Action Comics.

I don't think DC will change the writers until those other books sell better than Wonder Woman.

[QUOTE=Alpha;5653313]I was surprised that Wonder Woman Black & Gold sold better than the regular Wonder Woman book, better than Superman himself. The regular Wonder Woman wasn't far behind, and sold better than Flash, Teen Titans, Swamp Thing, Green Lantern, Action Comics.

I don't think DC will change the writers until those other books sell better than Wonder Woman.[/QUOTE]

I thought DC didn't publish comic book numbers anymore? Where did you come by those?

[url]https://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2021/2021-06DC.html[/url]

They don't disclose sales numbers, just rankings.

[QUOTE=Alpha;5653313]I [B]was surprised that Wonder Woman Black & Gold sold better than the regular Wonder Woman book, better than Superman himself.[/B] The regular Wonder Woman wasn't far behind, and sold better than Flash, Teen Titans, Swamp Thing, Green Lantern, Action Comics.

I don't think DC will change the writers until those other books sell better than Wonder Woman.[/QUOTE]
It’s a #1 mate, those always start strong. The test is how far it falls with the next issue. But I don’t think WW is in too much danger of getting a creative team shake up for now.

I really hope she doesn't get another new costume, the current main one works perfectly.

[QUOTE=masterwitcher88;5654581]I really hope she doesn't get another new costume, the current main one works perfectly.[/QUOTE]

I think the movies have pretty much solidified that as her default. It’s on pretty much of DC merch that uses her, save for the occasional retro thing that uses JLGL art.

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/NGGGGGN.png[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Gaius;5659939][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/NGGGGGN.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]

DC: But this time they're evil!

[QUOTE=Gaius;5659939][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/NGGGGGN.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Injustice WW and Superman summarized in three panels lmao:

[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E7lV6IAWYAAuHTV?format=png&name=small[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Vordan;5660552]Injustice WW and Superman summarized in three panels lmao:

[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E7lV6IAWYAAuHTV?format=png&name=small[/IMG][/QUOTE]

That has to be fake.

[QUOTE=Robanker;5660568]That has to be fake.[/QUOTE]

Yet it doesn’t [B][I]sound[/I][/B] out of character for either one does it? :p

[QUOTE=Vordan;5660552]Injustice WW and Superman summarized in three panels lmao:

[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E7lV6IAWYAAuHTV?format=png&name=small[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Injustice Diana with no filter

[QUOTE=Vordan;5660552]Injustice WW and Superman summarized in three panels lmao:

[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E7lV6IAWYAAuHTV?format=png&name=small[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Very disrespectful to the sacred texts brought to us by Tom Taylor here, Vordan.

There isn't a single reference to her wanting to hump Clark's bones. Completely out of character.

[SIZE=1](Damn, this series had some bad art)[/SIZE]

[QUOTE=Gaius;5660752]Very disrespectful to the sacred texts brought to us by Tom Taylor here, Vordan.

There isn't a single reference to her wanting to hump Clark's bones. Completely out of character.

[SIZE=1](Damn, this series had some bad art)[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

I've seen so much worse artwork from that book get posted. That's the surprising thing.

[QUOTE=Robanker;5660956]I've seen so much worse artwork from that book get posted. That's the surprising thing.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that's one of the things I try to be more lenient on the IJ comics on given it was weekly so you're not really gonna get something like Sharp or Capullo.

Though those trash costumes NRS cooked up certainly don't help. :p

[QUOTE=Gaius;5661023]Yeah, that's one of the things I try to be more lenient on the IJ comics on given it was weekly so you're not really gonna get something like Sharp or Capullo.

Though those trash costumes NRS cooked up certainly don't help. :p[/QUOTE]

You can only polish a turd so much, but it will always be a turd. Nothing can make those costumes look good.

When it comes to Diana coming to Mans World, does one prefer to:

A. Debut during WWI/WWII?
B. Debut in modern times?

And if you prefer her debuting during WWI/II, would you prefer her to stay active throughout or return to Paradise Island for X amount of years before returning.

[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;5661393]When it comes to Diana coming to Mans World, does one prefer to:

A. Debut during WWI/WWII?
B. Debut in modern times?

And if you prefer her debuting during WWI/II, would you prefer her to stay active throughout or return to Paradise Island for X amount of years before returning.[/QUOTE]

Modern times, [I]Gods and Mortals[/I] and [I]Year One [/I]show it can be done without the backdrop of major war where the premise of characters like Captain America or the Punisher do rely on that.

Unless you go full alternate history I can't really imagine a scenario where Diana debuts in WW2 and doesn't stay active. I think they only did that on the 70s show was because they switched networks.

[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;5661393]When it comes to Diana coming to Mans World, does one prefer to:

A. Debut during WWI/WWII?
B. Debut in modern times?

And if you prefer her debuting during WWI/II, would you prefer her to stay active throughout or return to Paradise Island for X amount of years before returning.[/QUOTE]

Modern times, if only for not creating headaches with Steve and how she left/where she went if there's a gap between WW2 and modern day in her history.

And it lets the JSA not get overshadowed by her in their heyday. I liked Alan being The Hero of his age.

[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;5661393]When it comes to Diana coming to Mans World, does one prefer to:

A. Debut during WWI/WWII?
B. Debut in modern times?

And if you prefer her debuting during WWI/II, would you prefer her to stay active throughout or return to Paradise Island for X amount of years before returning.[/QUOTE]

Debut during WW1/WW2 id prefer the first one, but the second one is fine too.
Id say be active throughout for the most part. Just not necesarily active on Earth. During post crisis there was supposed to have been a ten year span in which she was in outer space. During pre crisis we had a period of years where she lost her powers and operated under the radar. With her also doing a stint traveling dimensions and fighting against evil.

It would be easy enough to establish her as having started out at a point in the distant past and her activity over the decades being broken up with periods of absence not because she retired, but because of extenuating circumstances or a pressing need which found her elsewhere aiding those in need.

Im fond of this approach because it would add some weight to her rogues galleries legacy villains. With one being able to establish that X villain was a big deal Wonder Woman had to contend with during Y period in her life while also making her immortal foes enemies who have a stronger connection due to having been opposing her for so long.

Questions like 'Giganta: Gorilla or scientist?' could be handwaved aside by simply establishing she had that gorilla nemesis back in the day and the scientist is a more recent foe.

[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;5661393]When it comes to Diana coming to Mans World, does one prefer to:

A. Debut during WWI/WWII?
B. Debut in modern times?

And if you prefer her debuting during WWI/II, would you prefer her to stay active throughout or return to Paradise Island for X amount of years before returning.[/QUOTE]

Modern Times.

[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;5661393]When it comes to Diana coming to Mans World, does one prefer to:

A. Debut during WWI/WWII?
B. Debut in modern times?

And if you prefer her debuting during WWI/II, would you prefer her to stay active throughout or return to Paradise Island for X amount of years before returning.[/QUOTE]

Modern times. It simplifies everything.

ETA: And Steve and Etta can always be a part of her cast.

[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;5661393]When it comes to Diana coming to Mans World, does one prefer to:

A. Debut during WWI/WWII?
B. Debut in modern times?

And if you prefer her debuting during WWI/II, would you prefer her to stay active throughout or return to Paradise Island for X amount of years before returning.[/QUOTE]

Modern time easily. Makes things easier, shoe-horning her into a World War doesn't add anything really worth-while to her aside from meaningless lip-service about being the 'first' hero, and just better for her character development overall.

Hell, I made a whole thread about how much I dislike putting her in the World Wars.

I'm perfectly fine with Diana arriving in the present, in an era where women's rights aren't as clear cut as they were in WW1. I like the idea that Diana's "feminist" agenda isn't just about equality, it's about challenging women and men to be Renaissance people: daring, adventurous, creative and with a wide range of interests.

But for me the best part about Diana being active since the 20th century is that we can one day see her in the 70s. I really want Diana in the midst of the glam rock androgynous, tranvestite, queer community with figures like Ziggy Stardust, Divine, Prince, etc

[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;5661393]When it comes to Diana coming to Mans World, does one prefer to:

A. Debut during WWI/WWII?
B. Debut in modern times?

And if you prefer her debuting during WWI/II, would you prefer her to stay active throughout or return to Paradise Island for X amount of years before returning.[/QUOTE]

Modern times. Otherwise you’re just repeating yourself by having Diana have to rediscover Man’s World twice, and her bailing on Man’s World doesn’t look very good.

[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;5661393]When it comes to Diana coming to Mans World, does one prefer to:

A. Debut during WWI/WWII?
B. Debut in modern times?

And if you prefer her debuting during WWI/II, would you prefer her to stay active throughout or return to Paradise Island for X amount of years before returning.[/QUOTE]

I think I prefer modern times. With her debuting during a world war I can't see how she wouldn't become completely caught up in trying to stop it completely, rather than just intervening occasionally. I can see how a Diana who debuts during either war would spend all of her time trying to stop it, and then also involved in the fallout and preventing the next conflict. Essentially if you introduce Diana specifically into the context of WW1 or WW2, or *because* of that context, I believe you kind of have to follow through with it beyond it just being a period backdrop for adventuring if you're going to be true to the character.

The benefit of introducing Diana into "modern times" or, rather, introducing her without the stimulus of a real World War is that she then comes in to a much less specific real-world context where her mission is much more diffuse. Instead, she's usually introduced because of something more fantastical (like stopping Ares during post-crisis, or Year One). I find it easier to buy that a Diana who comes to Man's World to stop Ares would then have a mission that could go in lots of different directions to curb his influence on the world.

I still personally find it hard to accept that we don't see her engage in much more conflict-intervention and prevention around the world on the regular, but I find it easier to accept that if she isn't specifically brought in to fight in a global military conflict from the outset. The World Wars to me set a precedent for what Diana "should" be doing with her time in a way the modern times debuts do not.

[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;5661393]When it comes to Diana coming to Mans World, does one prefer to:

A. Debut during WWI/WWII?
B. Debut in modern times?

And if you prefer her debuting during WWI/II, would you prefer her to stay active throughout or return to Paradise Island for X amount of years before returning.[/QUOTE]

Modern times.

I'll accept WW2 if the story arc isn't about her making a comeback in the modern era.