Wonder Woman - General Discussion

[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;6387758]"Beautiful as Aphrodite" still operates under the fact that beauty is subjective.

I'm not wild about the costume (or the entire premise of what will most likely be a pretty stupid game), but Diana's physical appearance isn't an issue. Like HestiasHearth said, she's more visually interesting than just making her a generic looking white supermodel, and are experimenting with giving her the copper skin tone and features.[/QUOTE]

I never said beauty isn't subjetive. But I am willing to be that most people would operate under a 'Lynda Carter' look or a 'Gal Gadot' look. And neither were generic white looking women to begin with. One being half mexican, the other being middle-eastern.

But sure, let's keeping dropping our standards, at least to my point of view.

[QUOTE=Agent Z;6387302]Why should they?[/QUOTE]

Because that's who she is, I'm a purest. Subjectivity aside Wonder Woman looks a certain way.

[QUOTE=BiteTheBullet;6387830]I never said beauty isn't subjetive. But I am willing to be that most people would operate under a 'Lynda Carter' look or a 'Gal Gadot' look. And neither were generic white looking women to begin with. One being half mexican, the other being middle-eastern.

But sure, let's keeping dropping our standards, at least to my point of view.[/QUOTE]

When Gal Gadot was cast, half the responses were that she was too skinny to play Diana. Carter being half-Mexican is not known by most and she had to hide this fact to be accepted in Hollywood. If the internet had existed back then, I can't imagine what kind of comments she'd be getting. Even the Golden Age version - who wasn't gifted with Aphrodite's beauty - wouldn't be considered "super model attractive" by today's standards.

Wanting accuracy for Diana's origin, personality and powers is one thing but something as superficial as her looks doesn't warrant this. Especially when beauty standards are frequently being challenged and discarded.

[QUOTE=Koriand'r;6387876]Because that's who she is, I'm a purest. Subjectivity aside Wonder Woman looks a certain way.[/QUOTE]

She has black hair, white skin and dresses in primary colours. What more do you want? The Wonder Woman look most people know isn't even how she was originally drawn.

[QUOTE=Agent Z;6387900]When Gal Gadot was cast, half the responses were that she was too skinny to play Diana. Carter being half-Mexican is not known by most and she had to hide this fact to be accepted in Hollywood. If the internet had existed back then, I can't imagine what kind of comments she'd be getting. Even the Golden Age version - who wasn't gifted with Aphrodite's beauty - wouldn't be considered "super model attractive" by today's standards.

Wanting accuracy for Diana's origin, personality and powers is one thing but something as superficial as her looks doesn't warrant this. Especially when beauty standards are frequently being challenged and discarded.



She has black hair, white skin and dresses in primary colours. What more do you want? The Wonder Woman look most people know isn't even how she was originally drawn.[/QUOTE]

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[QUOTE=Frontier;6387819]I just think a lot of the faces in the game look off and lacking polish, like Lex Luthor.[/QUOTE]

You mean Lex Luthor's stunt double?

[QUOTE=Agent Z;6387900]When Gal Gadot was cast, half the responses were that she was too skinny to play Diana. Carter being half-Mexican is not known by most and she had to hide this fact to be accepted in Hollywood. If the internet had existed back then, I can't imagine what kind of comments she'd be getting. Even the Golden Age version - who wasn't gifted with Aphrodite's beauty - wouldn't be considered "super model attractive" by today's standards.

Wanting accuracy for Diana's origin, personality and powers is one thing but something as superficial as her looks doesn't warrant this. Especially when beauty standards are frequently being challenged and discarded.



She has black hair, white skin and dresses in primary colours. What more do you want? The Wonder Woman look most people know isn't even how she was originally drawn.[/QUOTE]

Gal herself said she was too thin and did not have enough muscle. I remember Gal "reassuring" us fans through a video that she would indeed put on 25 pounds of muscle and "bulk up" for the role.

I have always known all about Lynda Carter having Mexican heritage, and that is a WONDERful thing.

[QUOTE=Frontier;6385448]I hope her face and design are better in her solo game.[/QUOTE]

She does look better from what we saw in the teaser

[video=youtube_share;dyA8lnp9Tzg]https://youtu.be/dyA8lnp9Tzg[/video]

[Img]https://64.media.tumblr.com/3024d356fa71b2e15606efff378c474a/32a4d184870a413b-6e/s540x810/00e348a31a08d05182b8a1970b7a3395f5ba021a.gif[/img]

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I'm curious, do you take issue with Gal Gadot? She looks nothing like any of those (brown eyes, dark brown hair, tan skin).

You could point to so many completely different interpretations from the comics. Even just looking at Nicola Scott you see inconsistency - she's experimented with a few different takes on her, and in Year One she had olive skin and more traditionally Mediterranean features.

[img]https://imgix.bustle.com/wmag/2017/07/17/596ca3cbd3e15b3ca08b5878_image3.jpg?w=414&h=408&fit=crop&crop=faces&auto=format%2Ccompress[/img]

Then compare that to, say, Jamal Campbell's or Jen Bartel's:
[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/En4adEeUwAAX2Ie.png[/img]
[img]https://i.pinimg.com/736x/55/4e/7a/554e7afff47b87a4200b315668693027.jpg[/img]

The Suicide Squad video game model is still a Caucasian woman with black hair and blue eyes (albeit dark blue eyes, but Gal has brown eyes and no one complains about that). Her having slightly darker skin and a stronger nose doesn't change that. I can see someone taking issue with her costume or hairstyle but I don't see what the problem is with the face model.

And I'm not gonna take beauty into the equation here because it's far too subjective. I think the SS:KTJL model is beautiful and find Alex Ross' model really ugly and off-putting, but I'm not gonna say one looks more like Wonder Woman than the other just because I personally find one more attractive.

Love how Diana looks in the game! Nice to see a different look for her.

[QUOTE=bardkeep;6388199]I'm curious, do you take issue with Gal Gadot?[/QUOTE]

Yes, she never really looked like Wonder Woman to me. Diana has blue eyes.

I posted Nicola Scott's retrospective to show if you follow the basic rules concerning her coloring you can alter the features and she's still Wonder Woman. Conversly you can follow all the rules and still get an unattractive version, like Alex Ross did yet she looks cold and unapproachable.

It has less to do with what you personally find attractive and more about what she's supposed to look like.

[QUOTE=Koriand'r;6387941][ATTACH=CONFIG]129791[/ATTACH]

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The defence rests.

I loved that Diana, I'm sure that with makeup she would meet the standard beauty requirements that some here demand. Mind you, the suit is not my cup of tea.

[QUOTE=Sebastianne;6388477]I loved that Diana, I'm sure that with makeup she would meet the standard beauty requirements that some here demand. Mind you, the suit is not my cup of tea.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, the suit is where the fail comes in. She is wearing somebody's cosplay painted paper bag tiara with standard earth plane tactical gear with 90s level pockets and packets.

[QUOTE=Stanlos;6388529]Yeah, the suit is where the fail comes in. She is wearing somebody's cosplay painted paper bag tiara with standard earth plane tactical gear with 90s level pockets and packets.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. lol
I will never understand how so many fans of a character that is all about love, compassion, and acceptance, have a problem every time she is drawn as anything less than a blue-eyed supermodel with skin white as snow and lips red as blood (and "perfect" Standard American English, of course). It's so...odd. I will always prefer when they give her darker skin and a more distinctive face, and make her have an accent, as she should, since she is not from America. But I guess to each their own.

Please stop trying to reinvent the wheel for the sake of fake inclusivity.

It is not false inclusivity, it is revisionism to be more precise.
Movies and books have sold us a false image of so many real or not real people, always wanting to make them in the likeness of the white man/woman. It is not surprising then that at the time WMM followed those classifications that today are unacceptable with respect to the origin and image of a character.
It doesn't matter that much to me in particular, Diana could be white or a little more olive (which is what I prefer), black hair, gray blue eyes (actually I don't care about eye color) and always always with an accent.

[QUOTE=Koriand'r;6388788]Please stop trying to reinvent the wheel for the sake of fake inclusivity.[/QUOTE]

What is the difference between fake and real inclusivity?

[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;6389085]What is the difference between fake and real inclusivity?[/QUOTE]

I am curious too.
Meanwhile, I will continue celebrating every single time Wonder Woman's wheel gets reinvented. Meaning, when she gets drawn or portrayed as a woman with darker skin and with "accented" English (in quotation marks because all forms of spoken communication are accented, and when people want Wonder Woman "without an accent," they usually mean that they want her to sound "like an American").
:D

[QUOTE=Koriand'r;6386660]The problem is Wonder Woman [I]has[/I] stereotypical super-model features, don't run from it, embrace it.[/QUOTE]

I love Diana’s traditional look, don’t get me wrong. I wouldn’t label this Suicide Squad version as an improvement, it’s just fun to have some variety.

It’s understandable if you don’t like it. I was throwing shade at those coomer fanboys: the type who rant about wokeness ruining comics/video games anytime they see a female character design that they don’t consider sexy

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She is here. She is "weird"[looking]. Get used to it. :cool:

(Yes, I love her non-supermodel-esque features. LOVE it).

What's with all the hatred towards Caucasians? Not just here but in media in general. If say, Black Panther was suddenly made Caucasian there would be an uproar (and rightly so), but the inverse is somehow considered okay?

It's racism is what it is.

(For the record I'm not being 100% serious, but I do consider it to be a case of double standards).

[QUOTE=hareluyafan1;6389391]What's with all the hatred towards Caucasians? Not just here but in media in general. If say, Black Panther was suddenly made Caucasian there would be an uproar (and rightly so), but the inverse is somehow considered okay?

It's racism is what it is.

(For the record I'm not being 100% serious, but I do consider it to be a case of double standards).[/QUOTE]

Oh here we go. If you need a lesson on why whitewashing and race bending are not in the same wheelhouse by now...i don't know what to tell ya.

[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;6389477]Oh here we go. If you need a lesson on why whitewashing and race bending are not in the same wheelhouse by now...i don't know what to tell ya.[/QUOTE]

I am surprised that nobody has denounced "hatred against beautiful supermodels" yet, to be honest.

[QUOTE=hareluyafan1;6389391]What's with all the hatred towards Caucasians? Not just here but in media in general. If say, Black Panther was suddenly made Caucasian there would be an uproar (and rightly so), but the inverse is somehow considered okay?

It's racism is what it is.

(For the record I'm not being 100% serious, but I do consider it to be a case of double standards).[/QUOTE]

A better comparison to making Black Panther white is making Wonder Woman and the Amazons men. His Blackness isn't just a skin tone, it's a political identity.

Besides, we're not even talking about racebending here...she's still white, just a slightly darker shade. I have Ashkenazi Jewish and Southern Italian friends and relatives with that skin tone.

[QUOTE=HestiasHearth;6389485]I am surprised that nobody has denounced "hatred against beautiful supermodels" yet, to be honest.[/QUOTE]

Can't denounce it too hard because that's my mantra on days when I'm feeling myself and someone does something that annoys me

Personally, I don't mind Diana being anything from more traditionally "Caucasian" with blue eyes and black hair to more olive skinned with brown eyes and more classically " Mediterranean" features.... But that face from the game is just... Plain?

It's always funny to me, the argument that she should be Mediterranean looking since that's where she's from. But Diana was sculpted from clay ( in most instances). DCs Amazons are multi cultural. Such rules technically shouldn't apply ( and quite frankly, up until fairly recently the Island wasn't even in the Mediterranean....). That being said, she doesn't have to be specifically Caucasian either....., Nicola's Year One version of Diana is how I feel current Diana should look.

I love Lynda as WW. I love Gal as WW. Visually they both work well as Diana ( and Lynda often had hair that was medium to darkest brunette... Usually not jet black)

Where I fall off is when she's depicted as too bulky, too tall, too "masculine"... Too rough? I know that's subjective...lol
There's an unfortunate pitfall some artists fall into of following the misconceptions of the Amazons of Myth, with the " action girls must be like men" thing that I hate. Or the "sexpot" "supermodel". Thing. That's a sort of artificial beauty.

[QUOTE=wonder39;6389503]Where I fall off is when she's depicted as too bulky, too tall, too "masculine"... Too rough? I know that's subjective...lol
There's an unfortunate pitfall some artists fall into of following the misconceptions of the Amazons of Myth, with the " action girls must be like men" thing that I hate. Or the "sexpot" "supermodel". Thing. That's a sort of artificial beauty.[/QUOTE]

Idk, I'd challenge the assumption that muscular = masculine. I'm not as particular about her height (I think she could be tall but I don't think she needs to be, like, 6'5") but I do think it's a little troublesome to have Superman and Batman - the physical ideals of masculinity - portrayed as massive and jacked while Diana looks like Lynda Carter or Gal Gadot. It's just feeding off of the cultural pressure for women to be as small as possible.

I think the bigger problem is when artists make her look like a buff dude with tits (really top-heavy, disproportionately huge biceps, vascularity). There are ways to make her look strong and muscular while still making her look very feminine. Great example would be Will Murai, who draws her very muscular but not masculine - she's got the defined shoulders/biceps but she also has wide hips, a defined waist, thick thighs, and more of a pear/hourglass shape:

[img]https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/2SIAAOSww3hidpnM/s-l500.jpg[/img]

Or for a more famous example Darwyn Cooke - his Diana looks strong and ridiculously tall but she's still [I]very[/I] feminine:
[img]https://cafans.b-cdn.net/images/Category_34117/subcat_87244/dc.JPG[/img]

Well looks like combined with SS getting dunked on for being trash, looks like no IJ3 also for a while.

So sucks for BatGod fans but good news for WW all around.

[QUOTE=bardkeep;6390009]Idk, I'd challenge the assumption that muscular = masculine. I'm not as particular about her height (I think she could be tall but I don't think she needs to be, like, 6'5") but I do think it's a little troublesome to have Superman and Batman - the physical ideals of masculinity - portrayed as massive and jacked while Diana looks like Lynda Carter or Gal Gadot. It's just feeding off of the cultural pressure for women to be as small as possible.

I think the bigger problem is when artists make her look like a buff dude with tits (really top-heavy, disproportionately huge biceps, vascularity). There are ways to make her look strong and muscular while still making her look very feminine. Great example would be Will Murai, who draws her very muscular but not masculine - she's got the defined shoulders/biceps but she also has wide hips, a defined waist, thick thighs, and more of a pear/hourglass shape:

[img]https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/2SIAAOSww3hidpnM/s-l500.jpg[/img]

Or for a more famous example Darwyn Cooke - his Diana looks strong and ridiculously tall but she's still [I]very[/I] feminine:
[img]https://cafans.b-cdn.net/images/Category_34117/subcat_87244/dc.JPG[/img][/QUOTE]

That's why I said " too" tall, ",too" bulky, "too " masculine.

I didn't say having muscles or definition makes you masculine. It's the degree.

I personally don't mind the body type of a Lynda or Gal. For characters like WW or Kal, muscle size isn't indicative of strength ( as it's all magic or sci Fi).

But Diana should have an athletic body. Lean muscle. I agree there's a way of depicting that without making her look like man. But sadly not everyone has that ability...lol

I always think of Diana as being about 6 ' tall, with Kal and Bruce being 6'1" to 6'3". But I grew up when she was probably 5'10"? That's not tiny.

I sometimes think of her physical stature/ appearance like I do her bracelets. The traditionally smaller bracelets are actually cooler, because it takes more skill to deflect with them. Big ol bracelets to her elbows seem more practical, but ( 1) are more uncomfortable and (2) not as exciting.

Similarity, her not being as tall as the main guys, and not being bulky, make her feats of strength, etc seem more wonderous.

[QUOTE=wonder39;6390549]That's why I said " too" tall, ",too" bulky, "too " masculine.

I didn't say having muscles or definition makes you masculine. It's the degree.

I personally don't mind the body type of a Lynda or Gal. For characters like WW or Kal, muscle size isn't indicative of strength ( as it's all magic or sci Fi).

But Diana should have an athletic body. Lean muscle. I agree there's a way of depicting that without making her look like man. But sadly not everyone has that ability...lol

I always think of Diana as being about 6 ' tall, with Kal and Bruce being 6'1" to 6'3". But I grew up when she was probably 5'10"? That's not tiny.

I sometimes think of her physical stature/ appearance like I do her bracelets. The traditionally smaller bracelets are actually cooler, because it takes more skill to deflect with them. Big ol bracelets to her elbows seem more practical, but ( 1) are more uncomfortable and (2) not as exciting.

Similarity, her not being as tall as the main guys, and not being bulky, make her feats of strength, etc seem more wonderous.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this :)

If they could find a 'super model' type that has an athletic build like a bikini or fitness model, that would be a perfect mix or balance for me.

I know she is on the shorter side, but Jessica Biel had this 'body' type when she was in Blade 3.

[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;6389477]Oh here we go. If you need a lesson on why whitewashing and race bending are not in the same wheelhouse by now...i don't know what to tell ya.[/QUOTE]

LOL "race bending." Nice euphemism. Much more acceptable than calling it blackwashing or brownwashing. Social engineering at it's finest.

Double standards are just that. Two wrongs do not make a right.

And just so we're clear, if say a Bronze Tiger movie was announced and Ben was being played by a Caucasian, I'd be complaining along with everybody else. Don't even think of trying to accuse me of any kind of racial prejudice because my entire point is that [B]all[/B] racial prejudice is wrong.

[QUOTE=bardkeep] A better comparison to making Black Panther white is making Wonder Woman and the Amazons men. His Blackness isn't just a skin tone, it's a political identity.[/QUOTE]

Fair point. An even better comparison is the blackwashing of Ariel in the "Little Mermaid" live-action remake. Consider that-

A) Mermaids live thousands of leagues underwater. There is no logical reason for them to have high melanin levels because they get little exposure to sunlight.

B) The story is based on a Danish fairy tale.

It's pure racism. If you want more movies starring 'people of colour' (is that term still acceptable? Apologies if not), then make more movies based on African folktales and such.

[QUOTE=bardkeep]Besides, we're not even talking about racebending here...she's still white, just a slightly darker shade. I have Ashkenazi Jewish and Southern Italian friends and relatives with that skin tone.[/QUOTE]

True.

Anyway, sorry for dragging this off-topic.

[QUOTE=BiteTheBullet;6390579]I agree with this :)

If they could find a 'super model' type that has an athletic build like a bikini or fitness model, that would be a perfect mix or balance for me.

I know she is on the shorter side, but Jessica Biel had this 'body' type when she was in Blade 3.[/QUOTE]

Exactly.

Jessica Biel was the only good part of that movie.

[QUOTE=hareluyafan1;6390580]LOL "race bending." Nice euphemism. Much more acceptable than calling it blackwashing or brownwashing. Social engineering at it's finest.

Double standards are just that. Two wrongs do not make a right.

And just so we're clear, if say a Bronze Tiger movie was announced and Ben was being played by a Caucasian, I'd be complaining along with everybody else. Don't even think of trying to accuse me of any kind of racial prejudice because my entire point is that [B]all[/B] racial prejudice is wrong.



Fair point. An even better comparison is the blackwashing of Ariel in the "Little Mermaid" live-action remake. Consider that-

A) Mermaids live thousands of leagues underwater. There is no logical reason for them to have high melanin levels because they get little exposure to sunlight.

B) The story is based on a Danish fairy tale.

It's pure racism. If you want more movies starring 'people of colour' (is that term still acceptable? Apologies if not), then make more movies based on African folktales and such.



True.

Anyway, sorry for dragging this off-topic.[/QUOTE]

Sure Jan. Just continue with your ignorance.

Where's WW with her lasso of truth when we need her.

[QUOTE=hareluyafan1;6390580]LOL "race bending." Nice euphemism. Much more acceptable than calling it blackwashing or brownwashing. Social engineering at it's finest.

Double standards are just that. Two wrongs do not make a right.

And just so we're clear, if say a Bronze Tiger movie was announced and Ben was being played by a Caucasian, I'd be complaining along with everybody else. Don't even think of trying to accuse me of any kind of racial prejudice because my entire point is that [B]all[/B] racial prejudice is wrong.



Fair point. An even better comparison is the blackwashing of Ariel in the "Little Mermaid" live-action remake. Consider that-

A) Mermaids live thousands of leagues underwater. There is no logical reason for them to have high melanin levels because they get little exposure to sunlight.

B) The story is based on a Danish fairy tale.

It's pure racism. If you want more movies starring 'people of colour' (is that term still acceptable? Apologies if not), then make more movies based on African folktales and such.



True.

Anyway, sorry for dragging this off-topic.[/QUOTE]

Yes, it's not the same because "brownwashing" or "blackwashing" don't have the same real ugly history of casting white people to be play other races often in the form of unflattering stereotypes that are done in tandem of excluding said races from the entertainment industry.

[QUOTE=hareluyafan1;6390580]
Fair point. An even better comparison is the blackwashing of Ariel in the "Little Mermaid" live-action remake. Consider that-

A) Mermaids live thousands of leagues underwater. There is no logical reason for them to have high melanin levels because they get little exposure to sunlight.[/QUOTE]

...You know mermaids aren't real right?

[QUOTE=Gaius;6391146]Yes, it's not the same because "brownwashing" or "blackwashing" don't have the same real ugly history of casting white people to be play other races often in the form of unflattering stereotypes that are done in tandem of excluding said races from the entertainment industry.[/QUOTE]

Gaius coming through with the good takes as usual.

[QUOTE=I'm a Fish;6391579]...You know mermaids aren't real right?[/QUOTE]

Sounds like science denial to me. Internet experts will assure you that a woman with gills instead of lungs, a giant fish tail for legs, and lots of singing fish friends is totally fine and reasonable as long as her skin isn't brown.

I wonder what "logic" people are going to use to justify their outrage over Black Tinkerbell...

[QUOTE=I'm a Fish;6391579]...You know mermaids aren't real right?[/QUOTE]

And this is coming from I'm a Fish... If anyone would know if mermaids were real or not, it'd be someone identifying as a fish! ��

If Wonder Woman ever gets an animated series, would you like it to look something like this?

[video=youtube;WVAxcFqSwnc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVAxcFqSwnc[/video]

Well the Little Mermaid is a Danish national icon, there’s even a very famous statue of the Little Mermaid in Copenhagen so the Danes might feel ever so slightly irked about it maybe...

Norwegian folks on YT were certainly pleased with how Robert Eggers handled norse/pagan lore in the Northman, they must've heaved a huge sigh of relief that the Americans didn’t turn them all Persian lol

[QUOTE=VonHammersmark;6391773]Well the Little Mermaid is a Danish national icon, there’s even a very famous statue of the Little Mermaid in Copenhagen so the Danes might feel ever so slightly irked about it maybe...

Norwegian folks on YT were certainly pleased with how Robert Eggers handled norse/pagan lore in the Northman, they must've heaved a huge sigh of relief that the Americans didn’t turn them all Persian lol[/QUOTE]

I think they should be more irked about how Disney butchered Andersen's story by completely changing the ending :p

And the original movie didn't even take place in Denmark.

[QUOTE=Agent Z;6391755]If Wonder Woman ever gets an animated series, would you like it to look something like this?

[video=youtube;WVAxcFqSwnc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVAxcFqSwnc[/video][/QUOTE]

I have to say, if I had to choose between Wonder Woman getting a series and W.I.T.C.H getting more seasons...I'd choose W.I.T.C.H.

Is there any greater sign that we're lacking for good Wonder Woman stories than seeing this board devolve into a conversation about Diana's appearance? It feels like a long time since a run has stimulated much conversation about actual plot points, or even favourite panels and spreads in the art.