Wonder Woman - General Discussion

Years ago, Gail Simone interviewed Mark Waid, and I think it's kind of interesting to see him describe his struggle with her, specially when Gail Simone is on the other side and very much critiquing his effect on her

[url]https://fivequestionswith.wordpress.com/mark-waid/[/url]

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And, on an “I’m projecting this more than working off actual evidence” level, I love her message of spreading peace and rationality in an irrational, angry world.

That said, I’ve read every Wonder Woman story ever published (and was even an editor on the book for about an hour-and-a-half in the late 1980s), and I honestly can’t think of a single “classic” Wonder Woman story or one that moved me. That’s not a slight on the fine creators who’ve worked on the book, including my pal George Perez or you, whatever your name is, again; it’s just a personal thing that I like the character in concept more than the actual stories. To me, the library of Wonder Woman stories is really kinda just one big red-and-blue blur. No offense. I think you, in particular, have done some great stuff with the character.
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. I honestly believe that the key to my fully understanding Wonder Woman enough to feel like I “get” her is for me to figure out how to really, truly interpret in modern language what Marston was trying to say about men and women and their roles through the symbols of bondage and light s&m that peppers the first years of that strip in a way that’s quaint and innocent because we’re seeing it from a distance but which would be inflammatory today.[/quote]

I still think everyone is projecting a "sexual aspect" onto those Golden Age stories where there isn't any.

Or rather, there are snippets of it, but very few.

When a character gets tied up in those stories it's not about kink, it's about domination vs autonomy. How people are willing to trust each other, vs exploiting others.

And in most situations, ther character tied up is supposed to free herself from the bondage of the villains

Am I the only one not getting the rationality part?

Really not believing him on the "I've read every Wonder Woman story ever published" part.

Even for obvious hyperbole, I wouldn't believe him if he just said he read the big runs

[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;6836985]Really not believing him on the "I've read every Wonder Woman story ever published" part.

Even for obvious hyperbole, I wouldn't believe him if he just said he read the big runs[/QUOTE]

Eh, it's kind of his thing to be known as ''the walking DC encyclopedia [SIZE=1]who sucks at writing Wonder Woman[/SIZE]'' so even if it's not every issue I could buy he's probably read more than most. Plus that was interview was in like 2009.

But yeah, interviews like that are kind of what make me keep Waid off my radar, just so arrogant old school comic book nerd vibes at times.

[QUOTE=Gaius;6836994]Eh, it's kind of his thing to be known as ''the walking DC encyclopedia [SIZE=1]who sucks at writing Wonder Woman[/SIZE]'' so even if it's not every issue I could buy he's probably read more than most. Plus that was interview was in like 2009.

But yeah, interviews like that are kind of what make me keep Waid off my radar, just so arrogant old school comic book nerd vibes at times.[/QUOTE]

I like Waid on other stuff, but as far as writers who mine the Silver Age for ideas go, Morrison has him beat. And at this point, I think King might as well, at least when his big swings land.

[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;6837000]I like Waid on other stuff, but as far as writers who mine the Silver Age for ideas go, Morrison has him beat. And at this point, I think King might as well, at least when his big swings land.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, Waid's more diplomatic about it but he's just as much a "the real DC Universe ends at the 1970s everything else after (except the stuff I did) doesn't count" like Alex Ross is.

[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;6837000]I like Waid on other stuff, but as far as writers who mine the Silver Age for ideas go, Morrison has him beat. And at this point, I think King might as well, at least when his big swings land.[/QUOTE]

I don't know if Tom King has any love for the silver age. If anything, his whole shtick is taking characters and turning them into edgy and morally ambiguous versions so that it fits King's own cynical worldview.

It gets him awards and critical acclaim but it also makes his stories too bleak and joyless to read.

[QUOTE=Laser_Man;6837038]I don't know if Tom King has any love for the silver age. If anything, his whole shtick is taking characters and turning them into edgy and morally ambiguous versions so that it fits King's own cynical worldview.

It gets him awards and critical acclaim but it also makes his stories too bleak and joyless to read.[/QUOTE]

It depends on the project. His Supergirl book, for example, isn't cynical and has some deep cut pre-Crisis references. And if he puts a darker spin on things and the story still holds up, thats still more interesting than most other material we get from DC (though yes, when it's something like HiC, it is absurdly bad).

[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;6837000]I like Waid on other stuff, but as far as writers who mine the Silver Age for ideas go, Morrison has him beat. And at this point, I think King might as well, at least when his big swings land.[/QUOTE]
Waid is a much better character/relationship writer than Morrison though.

[QUOTE=Laser_Man;6837038]I don't know if Tom King has any love for the silver age. If anything, his whole shtick is taking characters and turning them into edgy and morally ambiguous versions so that it fits King's own cynical worldview.

It gets him awards and critical acclaim but it also makes his stories too bleak and joyless to read.[/QUOTE]

Eh, I have no love for the two but King's take that Superman and Batmn admire the other because they think the other had the worse childhood is far better than what I've seen from stuff like Waid.

[IMG]https://www.comicbookrevolution.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Batman-Superman-Double-Date.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Gaius;6837218]Eh, I have no love for the two but King's take that Superman and Batmn admire the other because they think the other had the worse childhood is far better than what I've seen from stuff like Waid.

[IMG]https://www.comicbookrevolution.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Batman-Superman-Double-Date.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

I don't know. Even in this page it seems like Tom King is measuring the worth of a hero by the trauma faced by them. Superman and Batman shouldn't consider the other a better hero on the basis of who had it worse.

I would rather they focus on the good done by the other.

[QUOTE=Gaius;6837218]Eh, I have no love for the two but King's take that Superman and Batmn admire the other because they think the other had the worse childhood is far better than what I've seen from stuff like Waid.

[IMG]https://www.comicbookrevolution.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Batman-Superman-Double-Date.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
You should read Waid's Brave and the Bold mini where he dives deep into Hal Jordan and Barry Allen's characters and friendships over the course of their Superhero careers.

[QUOTE=Frontier;6837304]You should read Waid's Brave and the Bold mini where he dives deep into Hal Jordan and Barry Allen's characters and friendships over the course of their Superhero careers.[/QUOTE]

I have that. I'll read it eventually but solicits about upcoming WF and Absolute Power don't have me in the mood to read Waid atm. :p

[QUOTE=Gaius;6837325]I have that. I'll read it eventually but solicits about upcoming WF and Absolute Power don't have me in the mood to read Waid atm. :p[/QUOTE]

The sad thing about AP is that its an editorial created event that went through 4 writers (Zdarsky, Williamson, Taylor, King) who all couldn't figure out how to make it work. Leaving Waid stuck with it.

Though the WF bit is presumably his decision. :p

[QUOTE=Gaius;6837325]I have that. I'll read it eventually but solicits about upcoming WF and Absolute Power don't have me in the mood to read Waid atm. :p[/QUOTE]
I think you'd still enjoy it :).

Also Diana doesn't show up so he can't screw with her character ;).

[QUOTE=Frontier;6837304]You should read Waid's Brave and the Bold mini where he dives deep into Hal Jordan and Barry Allen's characters and friendships over the course of their Superhero careers.[/QUOTE]

That miniseries is such a great insight into Barry and Hal all the while telling fun stories with a classic Silver Age twist.

Also the ending makes me sad that DC brought them back.

There was a fanvote on "most wanted" Omnibus collections: [url]https://community.cbr.com/showthread.php?171802-1st-ANNUAL-MOST-WANTED-DC-OMNIBUS[/url]

Relevant bits for WW:
6 Wonder Womand by Greg Rucka 2003-2005
56 Wonder Woman: Rebirth Vol 1 2016-2017

My understanding is that they vote only for things that haven't been previously collected in an Omnibus?

[QUOTE=Laser_Man;6837593]That miniseries is such a great insight into Barry and Hal all the while telling fun stories with a classic Silver Age twist.

[B]Also the ending makes me sad that DC brought them back.[/B][/QUOTE]
I had the opposite reaction, but I love their legacies too :).

[QUOTE=HsssH;6837623]There was a fanvote on "most wanted" Omnibus collections: [url]https://community.cbr.com/showthread.php?171802-1st-ANNUAL-MOST-WANTED-DC-OMNIBUS[/url]

Relevant bits for WW:
6 Wonder Womand by Greg Rucka 2003-2005
56 Wonder Woman: Rebirth Vol 1 2016-2017

My understanding is that they vote only for things that haven't been previously collected in an Omnibus?[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that'd probably be an obvious candidate for WW omnibus. Only run from the post-crisis era that hasn't been collected in any form is Luke's run.

Found in WW84....how did DC even allow an editor to be this...truthful?

"WW was the easiest book to give up"
"no one understands the character and we all want to be the definitive voice of WW"

The editor spells out what was wrong and no one listened of course

[img]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-y61DIluLfxI/VngEQbJ-4nI/AAAAAAAAL8k/vu1PvJhVXyM/s1600-Ic42/RCO024.jpg[/img]

It pre-dates that, Karen Berger had a letter in the opening issue of Loebs run saying how WW pre-Perez was treated like the aunt you only see at family reunions. You're happy she's there but no one actually likes her.

[QUOTE=Koriand'r;6403373]There was the old god/New God dynamic and I could see Knockout as a good foil for Wonder Woman even before the Frankenstein transformation into Genocide. And like I said already, she made sense when the alternate version did not, complete with the red hair, green costume and love for spikes that Knockout and Genocide both shared.[/QUOTE]

I remain curious as to how this original reveal would have played out. For those of us who aren't familiar with Knockout, what was she like pre-death (since I assume she was resurrected as Genocide) and what do you think her association with Diana would have been once she was revealed? Would Diana have redeemed her? Hated her?

[url]https://x.com/glebmelnikov8/status/1798767093044924504[/url]

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/9J5Qd7d.jpeg[/IMG]

[url]https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=984614819701801&set=pb.100044598752135.-2207520000[/url]

[IMG]https://scontent-bos5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/442414066_984614813035135_8804393476291621273_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=HvQ_5wk9a-oQ7kNvgESm1b5&_nc_ht=scontent-bos5-1.xx&oh=00_AYDMt6FRlJivto03GXP8IQso7j7PlrxRQ-m4O3cu5ZJvMw&oe=6665C7F6[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Gaius;6841148][url]https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=984614819701801&set=pb.100044598752135.-2207520000[/url]

[IMG]https://scontent-bos5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/442414066_984614813035135_8804393476291621273_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=HvQ_5wk9a-oQ7kNvgESm1b5&_nc_ht=scontent-bos5-1.xx&oh=00_AYDMt6FRlJivto03GXP8IQso7j7PlrxRQ-m4O3cu5ZJvMw&oe=6665C7F6[/IMG][/QUOTE]

So he is finished with it. I wonder how long until it is released.

[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;6840236]Found in WW84....how did DC even allow an editor to be this...truthful?

"WW was the easiest book to give up"
"no one understands the character and we all want to be the definitive voice of WW"

The editor spells out what was wrong and no one listened of course

[img]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-y61DIluLfxI/VngEQbJ-4nI/AAAAAAAAL8k/vu1PvJhVXyM/s1600-Ic42/RCO024.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]

"I believe no one loves Diana and her mythos more than Bill".

I think she meant to say, "no one likes their version of Diana and her mythos more than Bill":p.

That's what you have an issue with? Out of all the things being discussed there

[QUOTE=Gaius;6841130][url]https://x.com/glebmelnikov8/status/1798767093044924504[/url]

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/9J5Qd7d.jpeg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

I like Gleb, looking forward to his Diana. Looks nice and tall here too. :cool:

Has anyone revisited the Finch run? My memories of it inspire depression or facepalming in equal measure. But I am biased. Has anyone reviewed it through non-jaded, wtf-is-dis eyes?

[QUOTE=Gaius;6841130][url]https://x.com/glebmelnikov8/status/1798767093044924504[/url]

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/9J5Qd7d.jpeg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Looks like Diana is in her classic look?

[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GPe5q92XsAAjd9c?format=jpg&name=medium[/IMG]

From AP trailer

[QUOTE=Vordan;6842247][IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GPe5q92XsAAjd9c?format=jpg&name=medium[/IMG]

From AP trailer[/QUOTE]

Is that Xanadu to the left behind WW rocking that awesome top?

[QUOTE=Stanlos;6842281]Is that Xanadu to the left behind WW rocking that awesome top?[/QUOTE]
I'm 90% sure that's Xanadu. I can't think of who else it could be.

Oh my, the JLD!

This conversation didnt age well
[img]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-MKcV9tm_JbI/Vnf0V1VgpWI/AAAAAAAAH_o/7EFbp-7QPyY/s1600-Ic42/RCO010.jpg[/img]

[QUOTE=Frontier;6842159]Looks like Diana is in her classic look?[/QUOTE]

Yeah that’s for World’s Finest

[QUOTE=Vordan;6843195]Yeah that’s for World’s Finest[/QUOTE]
Makes me wonder if the person next to her is Nubia...

[QUOTE=Frontier;6843232]Makes me wonder if the person next to her is Nubia...[/QUOTE]

Is Hippolyta

Whoever she is Diana is like a good head taller than her. Thats a tall woman. :p

[video=youtube;7tL3Pbc_zhU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tL3Pbc_zhU[/video]

The above is a video discussing feminist retellings of ancient Greek myths and how some attempts to modernize them don't quite work. While Wonder Woman isn't mentioned in the video, it did make me think about whether it has overall succeeded as a genuinely feminist interpretation of Greek myth, especially after the discussion of Greek myth stories being appropriated and stripped of context as discussed @41:56. In particular, I wonder how fans of Greek descent feel about it, assuming any of them have read Wonder Woman.