Waid and Mora are doing the Lord's work.
On multiple fronts, but specifically for the clay birth right now.
This is meant to be in continuity. Between this and Cloonrad having Altuum reference it, maybe the higher ups are getting more lax on this?
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Waid and Mora are doing the Lord's work.
On multiple fronts, but specifically for the clay birth right now.
This is meant to be in continuity. Between this and Cloonrad having Altuum reference it, maybe the higher ups are getting more lax on this?
Nice to see clay origin references.
Less great is the suggestion she can be reverted back with ease, which is what gives rise to the golem nonsense. Diana is flesh and blood and rando villains shouldn't be able to just undo that.
Why does Wonder Woman have to show up in other characters' books? Nothing good ever happens when she shares space with Superman, Batman, and the Justice League.
[QUOTE=Guy_McNichts;6052186]Nice to see clay origin references.
[B]Less great is the suggestion she can be reverted back with ease, which is what gives rise to the golem nonsense. Diana is flesh and blood and rando villains shouldn't be able to just undo that.[/B]
Why does Wonder Woman have to show up in other characters' books? Nothing good ever happens when she shares space with Superman, Batman, and the Justice League.[/QUOTE]
I guess they want it to be her "kryptonite".
Which also demonstrates, not just a failure to understand Diana's origin, but also fails to understand mythology (human being being made flesh and blood out of clay or dirt is a recurring thing in many cultures, including Greek and the goddamn Bible), AND doesn't understand golems and what they were.
It almost feels like spite from DC. "Oh, you want the clay origin back? Fine...she's a golem and can get reverted to mud or crumble to dust at any moment! Happy?"
EDIT:
And how the hell does the freaking LASSO turn to mud?!
Mark Waid once said he didn't understand how to write Wonder Woman in [I]Kingdom Come[/I]. Twenty-six years later...STILL DOESN'T!
I've gotten so used to bad WW appearances in other books that this doesn't even register to me as being especially bad.
Yeah, it can be annoying, but this is the same series that has the Big Bad turn Superman into a liability in the first issue by having him injected with Red Kryptonite and go on a chaotic rampage as his body mutates and powers fluctuate. And Hal makes his first appearance in this series after getting brainwashed off page.
And Waid loves and gets both of those characters, and wrote Diana fine in his canon JLA run (at least nothing stands out as terrible), so this isn't worth getting too bothered about, IMO.
If someone is powerful enough to reverse the magic that the Gods did on Diana, they are probably powerful enough to take out the Lasso.
Dr Alchemy gets his powers from the Philosophers Stone. He's the kind of character that should really be up there in terms of threat level but rarely gets used to his full potential.
His power is literally transmuting elements. So reverting Diana back to what her body used to be and almost turning Batman into carbon is well within his range.
Waid started off with the wrong foot with Wonder Woman, he wrote her badly in Kingdom Come inadvertently setting off the chain reaction that lead to Warrior Woman being a thing.
However, he has grown tremendously as a writer since then and he wrote her well during her appearance in the 8th Anniversary Special:
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Perez also established that Circe could magically revert Diana to clay. That may even be the first ever instance of such a plot happening that I'm aware of, and it came from Wonder Woman's own book and one of her biggest creators.
Also the Anti-Monitor reverted Diana to clay in Crisis on Infinite Earths.
I know it's been done. But I hate it because, again, it's what leads to the "Wonder Woman is a golem" thing.
And, in fairness, Circe's thing was an actual ceremony that involved preparation and ingredients and required Diana to be immobilized for a long time. It wasn't just a snap of her fingers or just a thing that happens. It took time, effort, and was very easy to mess up on her part.
I just feel like, if Diana being reverted to clay is a threat to her, it should be treated as something very difficult to accomplish. Not just a villain of the day doing it with a snap of his finger...even if Dr. Alchemy should theoretically be that powerful.
God, I hate when Wonder Woman shows up in other people's books. I hate it so very much.
[QUOTE=John Venus;6052258]However, he has grown tremendously as a writer since then and he wrote her well during her appearance in the 8th Anniversary Special:[/QUOTE]
...I'll have to take your word for it, because those pages don't impress.
Not reading[I] Superman/Batman[/I] so not sure if she's actually been reverted to clay or if it's just a clay pun in general because it looks like everything is else is clay. I do lean towards Guy_McNights that I like the clay origin but also never really cared for it when writers tried to get "cute" with it also. Like most comic writers, it's not as clever as they think it is.
Thought Waid's 80th story was one of the better ones in that anthology and he's pretty much admitted he regrets how he wrote Diana in KC so I don't really hold it to much against him even if I've no time for the story itself. Waid's less-talented successors who took Warrior Woman and ran with it deserve more ire.
Cheetah also killed Diana in [I]Justice[/I] using poison from Persephone to revert Diana to clay. WW fans tend to still love that book because it made Cheetah look awesome.
[QUOTE=Guy_McNichts;6052272]I know it's been done. But I hate it because, again, it's what leads to the "Wonder Woman is a golem" thing.
And, in fairness, Circe's thing was an actual ceremony that involved preparation and ingredients and required Diana to be immobilized for a long time. It wasn't just a snap of her fingers or just a thing that happens. It took time, effort, and was very easy to mess up on her part.
I just feel like, if Diana being reverted to clay is a threat to her, it should be treated as something very difficult to accomplish. Not just a villain of the day doing it with a snap of his finger...even if Dr. Alchemy should theoretically be that powerful.
God, I hate when Wonder Woman shows up in other people's books. I hate it so very much.[/QUOTE]
Long drawn out ritual or no, we end up with with the potential "golem" stuff either way, and Perez may have been the first one to inflict it on us. And the Philosopher's Stone should presumably be as powerful as anything Circe can dish out.
And again, this is a story where even one of the title characters had a weakness exploited and became a danger to others in the first issue. Diana appearing in other books is always potentially bad, but there are "pick your battles" situations and this one doesn't seem like a big deal all things considered
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;6052298]Cheetah also killed Diana in [I]Justice[/I] using poison from Persephone to revert Diana to clay. WW fans tend to still love that book because it made Cheetah look awesome.[/QUOTE]
For what it's worth, I thought [I]Justice[/I] sucked, too.
For what it's worth, Waid wrote a pretty good team-up between Power Girl and Diana in his Brave and the Bold run.
Why are people using the word golem like it's a bad thing?
Diana's clay origin in Wonder Woman - Amazon Warrior. Published by Scholastic in 2016
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[QUOTE=Alpha;6052575]Why are people using the word golem like it's a bad thing?[/QUOTE]
It can feel a bit strange if she's literally still clay.
Also, weird that Alchemy seemed to have more trouble zapping Batman than he did Diana.
[QUOTE=Frontier;6052319]For what it's worth, Waid wrote a pretty good team-up between Power Girl and Diana in his Brave and the Bold run.[/QUOTE]
For what is worth. He disrespected WW yet again in that story, where it looked like PG one shotted WW. So yeah waid has no respect for WW.
[QUOTE=Gaius;6052296]Not reading[I] Superman/Batman[/I] so not sure if she's actually been reverted to clay or if it's just a clay pun in general because it looks like everything is else is clay. I do lean towards Guy_McNights that I like the clay origin but also never really cared for it when writers tried to get "cute" with it also. Like most comic writers, it's not as clever as they think it is.
Thought Waid's 80th story was one of the better ones in that anthology and he's pretty much admitted he regrets how he wrote Diana in KC so I don't really hold it to much against him even if I've no time for the story itself. Waid's less-talented successors who took Warrior Woman and ran with it deserve more ire.[/QUOTE]
I didn't read it either, but you have a point about everything being turned into clay, I thought it was a good reference about her origin.
Rereading this number that I quite like, I found (FINALLY!) another post rebirth reference about the clay origin that I always had in my mind but I didn't remember where it was.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/v4hdRQz.jpg[/img]
Oh that's from Wonder Woman #73 right? I don't recall that mention but you were right. Although that's from a mirror dimension, so at least issue #787 is a step forward by being in the real world
[QUOTE=Alpha;6052886]Oh that's from Wonder Woman #73 right? I don't recall that mention but you were right. Although that's from a mirror dimension, so at least issue #787 is a step forward by being in the real world[/QUOTE]
Yes, but the Chi dimension implies that every action of the Queen would be reflected darkly by the Empress as a form of Queen Hippolyta's self-knowledge.
If Hippolyta had been pregnant by Zeus, the Empress would have had to have an abortion, instead she makes explicit about the clay figure as a reflection of that reality in our dimension, it works for me ha ha.
By the way I love the concept of the Chi Dimension.
As do I. And I love that Hippolyta is the one that created it
[QUOTE=Zagre;6052666]It can feel a bit strange if she's literally still clay.
Also, weird that Alchemy seemed to have more trouble zapping Batman than he did Diana.[/QUOTE]
That is not weird at all. Of the Trinity, Batman's one true weakness, his kryptonite, his "youcanberevertedtoclaybyanyoldrando" gimmick is...none. He will always be the comic book character that can do anything, accomplish anything, beat anybody, and win everything. His one true superpower is his being intensely loved by so many writers and by so many powerful people in the comic book industry.
[URL="https://bleedingcool.com/comics/nightwing-historia-get-most-eisner-award-nominations-for-2022/"]Congrats to Jen Bartel
Eisner nominees for Best Cover Artist
[/URL]
[QUOTE]
[B]Jen Bartel, Future State Immortal Wonder Woman #1 & 2, Wonder Woman Black & Gold #1, Wonder Woman 80th Anniversary (DC); Women's History Month variant covers (Marvel)[/B]
David Mack, Norse Mythology (Dark Horse)
Bruno Redondo, Nightwing (DC)
Alex Ross, Black Panther, Captain America, Captain America/Iron Man #2, Immortal Hulk, Iron Man, The U.S. of The Marvels (Marvel)
Julian Totino Tedesco, Just Beyond: Monstrosity (BOOM!/KaBoom!); Dune: House Atreides (BOOM! Studios); Action Comics (DC); The Walking Dead Deluxe (Image Skybound)
Yoshi Yoshitani, I Am Not Starfire (DC); The Blue Flame, Giga, Witchblood (Vault)
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Alpha;6052575]Why are people using the word golem like it's a bad thing?[/QUOTE]
Creators believing Diana is a golem was how we got "she's not human and needs a father." I'm almost certain Azzarello used the word golem at some point while justifying why Zeus should be her father.
And again, it's a misunderstanding of myth and golems. Golems were literal moving clay.
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[QUOTE]Written by KENNY PORTER
Art and cover by BALDEMAR RIVAS
Variant cover by DAN MORA
1:25 variant cover by RICARDO LOPEZ ORTIZ
$3.99 US | 32 pages | 2 of 6 | Variant $4.99 US (card stock)
ON SALE 8/23/22
Wonder Woman’s war machine! Wonder Woman and the Green Lanterns have arrived to help Batman and the Flash stop the invader from the stars known as Superman. The last time mechs from space arrived, they tried to destroy Earth—these heroes won’t let that happen again, despite Superman’s protests that he’s on their side. Hawkwoman, the war mother of Earth, will intervene to prove to Earth’s heroes Superman is on their side as Darkseid and Lex Luthor prepare their next moves in response to Superman’s arrival...
[/QUOTE]
Well, that is f*cking sexy
Some covers with WW from August solicitations.
Voidsong #3
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DCeased, i think
[img]https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/jvevMKvdTD48CPHpJAjEsE-970-80.jpg[/img]
Beautiful Wonderdon
[img]https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/Zsvdvt9xyECBXz8myVogF4-970-80.jpg[/img]
Catwoman Lonely City #4 , nice reference by Chiang
[img]https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/yS3tNouSMt8kqjPoHAKkkB-970-80.jpg[/img]
Bendis' nosense
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yaaasss!!! ON SALE 11/8/22 ON SALE 11/8/22 ON SALE 11/8/22 ON SALE 11/8/22
[img]https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/RxcDmNEQhcJtLZ7HnYXvbh-970-80.jpg[/img]
WONDER WOMAN BY GEORGE PÉREZ OMNIBUS (2022 EDITION)
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[QUOTE]
Written by GEORGE PÉREZ and LEN WEIN
Art by GEORGE PÉREZ, BRUCE PATTERSON, and others
Cover by GEORGE PÉREZ
$100.00 US | 640 pages | 7 1/4" x 10 7/8" | Hardcover
ISBN: 978-1-77951-725-8
ON SALE 10/25/22
Offered again! The World’s Greatest Heroine was reimagined in 1986 by legendary comics creator George Pérez—and this new incarnation rose to unprecedented levels of popular and critical acclaim. In collaboration with co-writer Len Wein and inker Bruce Patterson, Pérez went on to craft Wonder Woman’s adventures for years, and his masterful stories ranged from heart-stopping battles with the Titans of myth to heartwarming interludes with Diana’s trusted network of friends. Includes Wonder Woman #1-24 and Wonder Woman Annual #1.
[/QUOTE]
WONDER WOMAN: THE GOLDEN AGE OMNIBUS VOL. 5
[IMG]https://static1.cbrimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/Wonder-Woman-The-Golden-Age-Omnibus-Vol-5.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE]
Written by WILLIAM MOULTON MARSTON, ROBERT KANIGHER, and others
Art by HARRY G. PETER and others
Cover by IRWIN HASEN and BERNARD SACHS
$150.00 US | 688 pages | 7 1/16" x 10 7/8" | Hardcover
ISBN: 978-1-77950-667-2
ON SALE 10/18/22
The Golden Age of Wonder Woman is continued in this omnibus collecting stories from the late 1940s and early 1950s! Beautiful as Aphrodite, wise as Athena, and swifter than Mercury, Princess Diana of Themyscira refuses to believe that anyone in a democracy is unimportant, or not worth saving! Join the classic heroine as she takes on villains and thrills in the name of justice. This omnibus collects stories from Wonder Woman #35-47 and Sensation Comics #90-104.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Guy_McNichts;6052272]I know it's been done. But I hate it because, again, it's what leads to the "Wonder Woman is a golem" thing.
[/QUOTE]
What have you got against golems?
EDIT: wait, nvm you already answered it.
Anyway I agree that it shouldn't be easy for a villain to revert Diana to clay.
I don't understand how the Golem thing even got started. She was never animated clay or whatever. She literally was brought to life. She's no more golem than you or I given the many Adam and Pandora style myths. Maybe its a sort of mental resistance born of a desire for the primacy of JudeoChristian faiths. That was the one negative I had for Byrne's GODS AND GODDESSES and one of the negatives for the Perez reboot.
[QUOTE=Alpha;6052575]Why are people using the word golem like it's a bad thing?[/QUOTE]
Well, it's not accurate in Diana's case. With the clay birth, she is sculpted of clay and that clay is brought to life ( as in flesh and bone. Made human ) by the Goddess (es).... It's the Greek creation story. The story of Galateia.
A golem is an animated mud figure. No brain of its own. Animated and controlled by a spell and it's caster.
So it's basically inaccurate and derogatory.
[QUOTE=Stanlos;6057117]I don't understand how the Golem thing even got started. She was never animated clay or whatever. She literally was brought to life. She's no more golem than you or I given the many Adam and Pandora style myths. Maybe its a sort of mental resistance born of a desire for the primacy of JudeoChristian faiths. That was the one negative I had for Byrne's GODS AND GODDESSES and one of the negatives for the Perez reboot.[/QUOTE]
Geoff Johns started it during the lead up to Infinite Crisis. That Diana was 'unrelatable' because she didn't have a secret identity and wasn't born like the others. And if you read stuff like the ending of 'Blackest Night', he does have a Judeo Christian centric outlook (even if it's subconscious). Though it's not just him, a lot of creators put the Abrahamic God above every other fictional God, even Marvel does it. It's understandable why some fans have PTSD over any implication of Diana being a 'golem' or centered around a villain taking advantage of her clay birth. Both Zeus and Odin end up treated as *the* God in many adaptations. The recent WW arc is one of the rare times that Odin is treated as he is in mythology; a trickster, a traveler, a troll bearing wisdom.
[QUOTE=wonder39;6057145]Well, it's not accurate in Diana's case. With the clay birth, she is sculpted of clay and that clay is brought to life ( as in flesh and bone. Made human ) by the Goddess (es).... It's the Greek creation story. The story of Galateia.
A golem is an animated mud figure. No brain of its own. Animated and controlled by a spell and it's caster.
So it's basically inaccurate and derogatory.[/QUOTE]
Exactly! If only they had better control of that prior to all those bizarre JLA PRIMEVAL type specials began to take it out of bounds
[QUOTE=Stanlos;6057170]Exactly! If only they had better control of that prior to all those bizarre JLA PRIMEVAL type specials began to take it out of bounds[/QUOTE]
You don't like JLA Primeval? It's one of the few stories where Wonder Woman's traits are the only thing that saves the entorr Justice League one by one. I find it really heartwarming.
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[QUOTE=Guy_McNichts;6053245]Creators believing Diana is a golem was how we got "she's not human and needs a father." I'm almost certain Azzarello used the word golem at some point while justifying why Zeus should be her father.
And again, it's a misunderstanding of myth and golems. Golems were literal moving clay.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=wonder39]Well, it's not accurate in Diana's case. With the clay birth, she is sculpted of clay and that clay is brought to life ( as in flesh and bone. Made human ) by the Goddess (es).... It's the Greek creation story. The story of Galateia.
A golem is an animated mud figure. No brain of its own. Animated and controlled by a spell and it's caster.
So it's basically inaccurate and derogatory.[/QUOTE]
Both of you said it perfectly.
[QUOTE=Alpha;6058324]You don't like JLA Primeval? It's one of the few stories where Wonder Woman's traits are the only thing that saves the entorr Justice League one by one. I find it really heartwarming.
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Not the event itself so much as the notion that Diana is a walking clay thing animated by magic. Isn't that the one where she leaves mud print on the door?
[QUOTE=Stanlos;6060331]Not the event itself so much as the notion that Diana is a walking clay thing animated by magic. Isn't that the one where she leaves mud print on the door?[/QUOTE]
I mean, Superman regressing turns him into a literal beast. Aquaman becomes an humanoid fish.
There's no implication that Wonder Woman is made of clay normally
[QUOTE=Alpha;6060357]I mean, Superman regressing turns him into a literal beast. Aquaman becomes an humanoid fish.
There's no implication that Wonder Woman is made of clay normally[/QUOTE]
Yeah, there's also Waid's JLA (at least I think it's Waid's? Could be Kelly's?) where Diana is also momentarily turned into a statue of clay, but that's because all super-heroes weere being divided into conceptual halves. I don't mind when it's metaphorical.