[QUOTE=Jim Kelly;5430990]Sad to see Superman being used as a jobber. He deserves better.[/QUOTE]
The same could frequently be said of Wonder Woman, at times in relation to him.
If he's going to job to anyone, better her than a lot of others.
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[QUOTE=Jim Kelly;5430990]Sad to see Superman being used as a jobber. He deserves better.[/QUOTE]
The same could frequently be said of Wonder Woman, at times in relation to him.
If he's going to job to anyone, better her than a lot of others.
[QUOTE=Jim Kelly;5430990]Sad to see Superman being used as a jobber. He deserves better.[/QUOTE]
The pic above from the [I]Sacrifice[/I] fight? I mean it’s gone both ways with Clark stomping Diana with no effort just to hype him up.
And honestly, Clark (and Bruce later in the story) playing moral high ground later in the story left more of a sour impression on me than him losing a fight. :p
[QUOTE=Gaius;5431033]The pic above from the [I]Sacrifice[/I] fight? I mean it’s gone both ways with Clark stomping Diana with no effort just to hype him up.
And honestly, Clark (and Bruce later in the story) playing moral high ground later in the story left a sour impression on me than him losing a fight. :p[/QUOTE]
In that story, Superman was the short term jobber...Wonder Woman was the long term jobber...
[QUOTE=I'm a Fish;5431039]In that story, Superman was the short term jobber...Wonder Woman was the long term jobber...[/QUOTE]
Yeah, stuff like that, and Trinity shipping, has done quite a bit to sour me on Diana being particularly friendly with Bruce and Clark. :p
I'm firmly in the "Superman is a little higher in raw stats than Wonder Woman" camp, but she should be able to pose a challenge to him and even defeat him in some circumstances. The Sacrifice fight wasn't bad, but him defeating her so easily in the JL film is. Not for the fact that she lost, but lost too quickly.
As a fan of both, I do get tired of the pissing contest between both camps honestly. Both deserve far better treatment than they frequently get, especially her.
There are also times when it seems they only consistently prop up Superman at the expense of her, which is very distressing as a fan of both. Meanwhile, he's still the go to to job to others when they want to build up a threat quickly while she's otherwise ignored. It sucks all around.
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5431104]I'm firmly in the "Superman is a little higher in raw stats than Wonder Woman" camp, but she should be able to pose a challenge to him and even defeat him in some circumstances. The Sacrifice fight wasn't bad, but him defeating her so easily in the JL film is. Not for the fact that she lost, but lost too quickly.
As a fan of both, I do get tired of the pissing contest between both camps honestly. Both deserve far better treatment than they frequently get, especially her.
There are also times when it seems they only consistently prop up Superman at the expense of her, which is very distressing as a fan of both. Meanwhile, he's still the go to to job to others when they want to build up a threat quickly while she's otherwise ignored. It sucks all around.[/QUOTE]
I heard she's almost on par with Superman in terms of power in the Snyder Cut.
I also heard this from Grace Randolph...who is now championing for Snyder to replace Patty as director for Wonder Woman 3, when 4 years ago she was championing Patty to replace Snyder as director for Justice League...
You're entitled to change your mind, but geez, why are fans so quick to turn on creators they liked? It's like they forgot all the concepts she pushed for in the first film. But that's a side tangent.
As long as Diana doesn't get head ponded into the ground, than that's an improvement.
[QUOTE=Jim Kelly;5430990]Sad to see Superman being used as a jobber. He deserves better.[/QUOTE]
That wasn't Superman being a jobber. He constantly had Diana on the backfoot during that fight and the only reason Diana survived was because she negated Max's mind control. Diana herself stated she'd have likely died if the fight continued.
In my honest opinion, based of feats/statements/the way the characters have been portrayed a majority of the time/the way the creators wanted their characters to be shown, I think my interpretation of Superman compared to Wonder Woman, in terms of basic physical stats, is that of general equals with some slight advantages and disadvantages in certain areas....
([COLOR=#ff0000]Red[/COLOR] indicates the slight advantage)
[B][U]Raw Strength:[/U][/B] [COLOR=#FF0000]Superman[/COLOR] = Wonder Woman : I think that Superman holds a slight advantage in raw strength (I don't have a greater then or equal to/less then or equal to sign on my keyboard). If this was a bench pressing contest Superman would win between the two but its not by a lot. They are both in the same strength class to me and I put SM and WW in a separate class then other earth based heavy hitters.
[B][U]Striking Power:[/U][/B] Superman = [COLOR=#ff0000]Wonder Woman[/COLOR] : Based on training and skill in combat Diana would and should hit harder then Clark. Again not by a massive margin, but again its the difference between an MMA fighter/Boxer's striking force vs a weight lifter's.
[B][U]Raw Speed:[/U][/B][COLOR=#ff0000][/COLOR] Superman = Wonder Woman : I don't really think there is a massive difference in raw speed between the two of them tbh. There are times were both surprised each other with their speeds respectively. Both easily keep pace with one another traveling from point A to B, Clark gets more time to do that now a days because Diana hasn't felt powerful in a really long time. But back in the day Diana would have a great amount of raw speed feats along with her other feats.
[B][U]
Combat Speed/Reaction Time:[/U][/B] Superman = [COLOR=#ff0000]Wonder Woman[/COLOR] : There is without a doubt in my mind that Diana is faster in H2H and reaction speeds. She has a far better catalogue of feats and its been mentioned a few dozen times that between them Diana is the faster fighter. She can perceive things faster then he can mainly due to training and skill. That's not to say Superman is slow and he can keep up in a fight with her, but she is defiantly going to dodge and get in hits way more often. Bolt vs Lee, remember.
[U][B]Raw Durability:[/B][/U] [COLOR=#ff0000]Superman[/COLOR] = Wonder Woman : While they are in the same level of durability, its pretty clear that Clark holds the advantage here. Diana can take a ton of brutal punishment but so can Clark and he can do it for a longer period of time. Basically what I'm saying is, if they both got hit with a supernova Clark would come back to consciousness a few seconds before Diana would.
[B][U]Pain Tolerance:[/U][/B][COLOR=#ff0000][/COLOR] Superman = [COLOR=#ff0000]Wonder Woman[/COLOR] : Ok so this is were I think they differ. Because Diana has a few more weaknesses then Clark and because she is older then him and has been building her pain tolerance through training and fighting Gods/Monsters, she's gained a higher tolerance to physical pain. Diana can be shot in the head or stabbed through the stomach and she keeps on fighting. Clark might need to take a bit of a break, He'll get that boost of adrenaline but it would last nearly as long as Diana's.
[U][B]Healing Factor:[/B][/U] Superman = Wonder Woman : They both have healed from near death at roughly the same rates. I've never really found a massive difference between the two of them. Diana is blessed by Apollo the god of healing and has divine blood, Clark's cells regenerate at extremely fast rates based on his proximity to the sun and if he's been around kryptonite or not.
Only things I would offer a bit of contention with would be raw speed and raw strength. Superman is generally portrayed to be much faster. Until they kick things into a near time travel gear, Superman is routinely shown as able to keep up with Flashes. Also I think the difference in raw strength is more than just slight. Compared to most everyone else she's one of the few who gets close to him, but pure raw strength has always been his thing and its still pretty significant. To me its her battle skill which really helps even that out some.
At the end of the day though these might be more quibbles in semantics more than anything. ll in all though its a pretty good way to look at things.
[QUOTE=Agent Z;5431159]That wasn't Superman being a jobber. He constantly had Diana on the backfoot during that fight and the only reason Diana survived was because she negated Max's mind control. Diana herself stated she'd have likely died if the fight continued.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. And if Diana truly is as powerful as DC says. She should be powereful enough to challenge Superman. And that shouldn't be seen as SM jobbing.
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5431104]I'm firmly in the "Superman is a little higher in raw stats than Wonder Woman" camp, but she should be able to pose a challenge to him and even defeat him in some circumstances. The Sacrifice fight wasn't bad, but him defeating her so easily in the JL film is. Not for the fact that she lost, but lost too quickly.
As a fan of both, I do get tired of the pissing contest between both camps honestly. Both deserve far better treatment than they frequently get, especially her.
There are also times when it seems they only consistently prop up Superman at the expense of her, which is very distressing as a fan of both. Meanwhile, he's still the go to to job to others when they want to build up a threat quickly while she's otherwise ignored. It sucks all around.[/QUOTE]
I think WW should be his equal. That was part of her destinity when she was created. And it's tiring how she usually is "second" best when DC always spends so much time saying how powerful she is, yet they don't show it.
[QUOTE=Sacred Knight;5431210]Only things I would offer a bit of contention with would be raw speed and raw strength. Superman is generally portrayed to be much faster. Until they kick things into a near time travel gear, Superman is routinely shown as able to keep up with Flashes. Also I think the difference in raw strength is more than just slight. Compared to most everyone else she's one of the few who gets close to him, but pure raw strength has always been his thing and its still pretty significant. To me its her battle skill which really helps even that out some.
At the end of the day though these might be more quibbles in semantics more than anything. ll in all though its a pretty good way to look at things.[/QUOTE]
If DC would put their money where their mouth is. We should be seeing WW perform speed, durability and strength feats truly comparable to SM. After all they constantly call her a power péer. Vut so far, it's all lipservice for the most part.
[QUOTE=mystical41;5431387[B]]I think WW should be his equal. That was part of her destinity when she was created. [/B]And it's tiring how she usually is "second" best when DC always spends so much time saying how powerful she is, yet they don't show it.[/QUOTE]
It was, but we've accumulated a lot of lore since then as far as Superman's status as the most powerful is concerned. She's no longer just Marston's creation, and all that implies for good or ill. He and his team had her for, what, 10 or so years? vs. the near 80 she's been around. And even he never seemed intent on having her fly, which is what a lot of fans don't like seeing nerfed, so there is not as much consistency when looking at what Marston wanted vs. what fans want.
It was also probably the intention of both Siegel/Shuster and Marston that neither of their characters firmly share a universe with the other, and we all know how that turned out.
Agreed that DC does need to do far more than they do as far as putting their money where their mouth is though. Being second strongest while still being able to stand up to the strongest puts a massive gap between her and almost everyone else.
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5431104]I'm firmly in the "Superman is a little higher in raw stats than Wonder Woman" camp, but she should be able to pose a challenge to him and even defeat him in some circumstances. The Sacrifice fight wasn't bad, but him defeating her so easily in the JL film is. Not for the fact that she lost, but lost too quickly.
As a fan of both, I do get tired of the pissing contest between both camps honestly. Both deserve far better treatment than they frequently get, especially her.
There are also times when it seems they only consistently prop up Superman at the expense of her, which is very distressing as a fan of both. Meanwhile, he's still the go to to job to others when they want to build up a threat quickly while she's otherwise ignored. It sucks all around.[/QUOTE]
That's fair, I'm not particularly worked up over power levels since that kind of stuff just kind of usually bores me and it doesn't really bother me if she's second to his first. My main gripe is usually it just seems to be done because Superman writers want to get back at the times he's been jobbed by Batman but DC will rarely let Bruce get straight up beaten so they have him toss around someone else. Or when it's done for him, or Bruce, to wag their fingers at her, and usually the Amazons by extension, over some supposed moral failing.
[QUOTE=Jim Kelly;5430990]Sad to see Superman being used as a jobber. He deserves better.[/QUOTE]
Jobber my ass, and Superman is by far 1 of the last characters who deserves any pity like that in a comparison with Wonder Woman, who jobbed and got terribly portrayed far more often to make him look good than the other way around.
[QUOTE=Gaius;5431436]That's fair, I'm not particularly worked up over power levels since that kind of stuff just kind of usually bores me and it doesn't really bother me if she's second to his first. My main gripe is usually it just seems to be done because Superman writers want to get back at the times he's been jobbed by Batman but DC will rarely let Bruce get straight up beaten so they have him toss around someone else. Or when it's done for him, or Bruce, to wag their fingers at her, and usually the Amazons by extension, over some supposed moral failing.[/QUOTE]
Aside from the fallout of the Max Lord neck snap (which DID go on for a while), I don't recall much finger wagging from Superman towards Wonder Woman or the Amazons. Maybe in Kingdom Come (which I know more by reputation than having read it)?
There is the scene from New Frontier, but the book and fans side with her on that one.
They should both knock Bruce around for a bit and then retire the "Trinity feuding" crap for a few decades (or forever)
[QUOTE=Sacred Knight;5431210]Only things I would offer a bit of contention with would be raw speed and raw strength. Superman is generally portrayed to be much faster. Until they kick things into a near time travel gear, Superman is routinely shown as able to keep up with Flashes. Also I think the difference in raw strength is more than just slight. Compared to most everyone else she's one of the few who gets close to him, but pure raw strength has always been his thing and its still pretty significant. To me its her battle skill which really helps even that out some.
At the end of the day though these might be more quibbles in semantics more than anything. ll in all though its a pretty good way to look at things.[/QUOTE]
This is either wrong or you truly just mean flying speed, because in any other case has Wonder Woman barely less speedster comparisons than Superman looking at the amount of feats to issues ratio, and he is definitively not much faster in any other kind of speed.
Strength is a different story, but shouldn't even matter that much if DC would properly portrayal all her equipment, but the stats game is not the right way anyway, they should just make them equal in the sense of them having a 50/50 fight with differently good match ups against different other threats by giving them different strengths and weaknesses.
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5431424]It was, but we've accumulated a lot of lore since then as far as Superman's status as the most powerful is concerned. She's no longer just Marston's creation, and all that implies for good or ill. He and his team had her for, what, 10 or so years? vs. the near 80 she's been around. And even he never seemed intent on having her fly, which is what a lot of fans don't like seeing nerfed, so there is not as much consistency when looking at what Marston wanted vs. what fans want.
It was also probably the intention of both Siegel/Shuster and Marston that neither of their characters firmly share a universe with the other, and we all know how that turned out.
Agreed that DC does need to do far more than they do as far as putting their money where their mouth is though. Being second strongest while still being able to stand up to the strongest puts a massive gap between her and almost everyone else.[/QUOTE]
DC still says that WW is one of the big top guns in SM's tier. So yes, i think they need to put their money where their mouth is. Or at least stop hyping her up only to come out short.
[QUOTE=Rightoya;5431474]This is either wrong or you truly just mean flying speed, because in any other case has Wonder Woman barely less speedster comparisons than Superman looking at the amount of feats to issues ratio, and he is definitively not much faster in any other kind of speed.
Strength is a different story, but shouldn't even matter that much if DC would properly portrayal all her equipment, but the stats game is not the right way anyways, they should just make them equal in the sense of them having a 50/50 fight with differently good match ups against different other threats by giving them different strengths and weaknesses.[/QUOTE]
Wonder Woman has never been shown to be able to keep up with the Flashes in a foot race, even if just barely in a lot of cases.
They arguably should have depicted her doing that long before now, but they rarely (if ever) have. So for all intents and purposes, he's faster than her at running speeds. Even in her own mythos, so is Cheetah.
I don't think it's a particular big deal if Diana or Clark aren't as fast as whoever the Flash is.
I mean besides ripping the timeline a new one, being "the fast one" is literally the Flash's entire thing. :p
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5431467]Aside from the fallout of the Max Lord neck snap (which DID go on for a while), I don't recall much finger wagging from Superman towards Wonder Woman or the Amazons. Maybe in Kingdom Come (which I know more by reputation than having read it)?
There is the scene from New Frontier, but the book and fans side with her on that one.
They should both knock Bruce around for a bit and then retire the "Trinity feuding" crap for a few decades (or forever)[/QUOTE]
Fair enough, guess I just mainly think of the Infinite Crisis era.
[QUOTE=Rightoya;5431474]This is either wrong or you truly just mean flying speed, because in any other case has Wonder Woman barely less speedster comparisons than Superman looking at the amount of feats to issues ratio, and he is definitively not much faster in any other kind of speed.
Strength is a different story, but shouldn't even matter that much if DC would properly portrayal all her equipment, but the stats game is not the right way anyway, they should just make them equal in the sense of them having a 50/50 fight with differently good match ups against different other threats by giving them different strengths and weaknesses.[/QUOTE]
I was speaking of raw speed, which includes both flying and running. He's at his fastest when flying but he's also quite fast while running. And I disagree its wrong. Hell a year or two ago they set up a splash page of fastest people in the verse. Superman was second to the Flashes (Wally, Barry, Thawne). That sort of stuff isn't gospel the second they go ahead and contradict it of course, which all being fictional characters they can easily do. But in general this one is pretty consistent.
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5431484]Wonder Woman has never been shown to be able to keep up with the Flashes in a foot race, even if just barely in a lot of cases.
They arguably should have depicted her doing that long before now, but they rarely (if ever) have. So for all intents and purposes, he's faster than her at running speeds. Even in her own mythos, so is Cheetah.[/QUOTE]
Wonder Woman has been shown several times to perceive, react to, catch and so on all kinds of speedsters including Flashes, but you can widen my flying speed comment to general travel speed, although they made it very clear that Superman gets also left in the dust by Flash in a serious foot race.
Probably, although i don't even remember that many good running speed feats of him, and was more thinking on other kinds of speed anyway.
[QUOTE=Sacred Knight;5431511]I was speaking of raw speed, which includes both flying and running. He's at his fastest when flying but he's also quite fast while running. And I disagree its wrong. Hell a year or two ago they set up a splash page of fastest people in the verse. Superman was second to the Flashes (Wally, Barry, Thawne). That sort of stuff isn't gospel the second they go ahead and contradict it of course, which all being fictional characters they can easily do. But in general this one is pretty consistent.[/QUOTE]
Superman was specifically flying in that splash page, and i doubt i forgot enough running speed feats of him to think he would be outright [I]much[/I] faster, but i was more thinking about the most combat relevant kinds of speed anyway.
That speed list is just short of decent tbh. I mean they got most of the fastest people on there (I mean lightray should be on there too not just black racer). Diana was shown running and not flying, also her explanation is that she "knows the mechanics of running better then anyone because she's a warrior" and like.... what? how does that makes sense? She's fast cause of Hermes's gift of godlike speed, that's all the writer needed to say. Superman was way to high on that list too tbh, again he's fast especially in flight but he's not right before the flashes. Black Racer was kind of low on that list, Cheetah should be faster then Diana but not slower then Clark. I would defiantly move the characters around a bit.
As for raw strength, yes Superman has the advantage but I don't think the gap is noticeable when both characters are that powerful. Like if Superman IS the top dog, y'know 100/100 in strength, then Wonder Woman is like 96-93/100. Its like, give a few thousand tons, but when both characters can move planets... what's a few thousand tons, right.
[QUOTE=masterwitcher88;5431541]That speed list is just short of decent tbh. I mean they got most of the fastest people on there (I mean lightray should be on there too not just black racer). Diana was shown running and not flying, also her explanation is that she "knows the mechanics of running better then anyone because she's a warrior" and like.... what? how does that makes sense? She's fast cause of Hermes's gift of godlike speed, that's all the writer needed to say. Superman was way to high on that list too tbh, again he's fast especially in flight but he's not right before the flashes. Black Racer was kind of low on that list, Cheetah should be faster then Diana but not slower then Clark. I would defiantly move the characters around a bit.
As for raw strength, yes Superman has the advantage but I don't think the gap is noticeable when both characters are that powerful. Like if Superman IS the top dog, y'know 100/100 in strength, then Wonder Woman is like 96-93/100. Its like, give a few thousand tons, but when both characters can move planets... what's a few thousand tons, right.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't give SM any advantage in speed or strength. If WW truly is meant to be his equal then that should be shown. After such a long time with the character getting the short end of the stick, i wouldn't settle for second best. Too many broken promises and i'm tired of it.
[QUOTE=Gaius;5431497]Fair enough, guess I just mainly think of the Infinite Crisis era.[/QUOTE]
Well it haunts her to this day, so can't blame you for thinking it's more pervasive than it might actually be.
Max Lord made it into her goddamn movies.
[QUOTE=mystical41;5431583]I wouldn't give SM any advantage in speed or strength. [B]If WW truly is meant to be his equal then that should be shown.[/B] After such a long time with the character getting the short end of the stick, i wouldn't settle for second best. Too many broken promises and i'm tired of it.[/QUOTE]
Maybe it's just not truly meant to be that way?
And no, it doesn't really matter what Marston may or may not have intended. At this point, a lot of what Siegel and Shuster intended for Superman is either not around or has been diluted or changed too. And none of them were intended to be in such a shared universe with dense continuity anyway.
[QUOTE=masterwitcher88;5431541]As for raw strength, yes Superman has the advantage but I don't think the gap is noticeable when both characters are that powerful. Like if Superman IS the top dog, y'know 100/100 in strength, then Wonder Woman is like 96-93/100. Its like, give a few thousand tons, but when both characters can move planets... what's a few thousand tons, right.[/QUOTE]
I think this sounds about right. If the gap is that small, and she's lacking his major weaknesses and is more skilled, that strikes me as more than fair.
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5431632]Well it haunts her to this day, so can't blame you for thinking it's more pervasive than it might actually be.
Max Lord made it into her goddamn movies.
Maybe it's just not truly meant to be that way?
And no, it doesn't really matter what Marston may or may not have intended. At this point, a lot of what Siegel and Shuster intended for Superman is either not around or has been diluted or changed too. And none of them were intended to be in such a shared universe with dense continuity anyway.
I think this sounds about right. If the gap is that small, and she's lacking his major weaknesses and is more skilled, that strikes me as more than fair.[/QUOTE]
There are still modern comics saying WW is equal to SM. How she is in the same tier etc etc. So yea, if she is meant to be on that level, it'd be great to actually see it on panel. As things stand right now. WW is not his equal. Not only that, she is not even remotely close to his level based on actual feats and battle trackrecord. I don't know if you are ok or not with the so called most iconic and powerful female hero being so below the strongest male, but i'm not ok with that.
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5431632]
Maybe it's just not truly meant to be that way?
And no, it doesn't really matter what Marston may or may not have intended. At this point, a lot of what Siegel and Shuster intended for Superman is either not around or has been diluted or changed too. And none of them were intended to be in such a shared universe with dense continuity anyway.
[/QUOTE]
Well in that case should DC finally lose the rights on Wonder Woman/just sell them, because it is meant to be that way without any doubt, the whole character Wonder Woman has no true purpose without that because we are talking about the literal core and reason for why she got created without any room for big interpretations in the question of being equal to Superman or even more what he represents in that regard. And DC even kind of seems to understand that, because all the unfulfilled lip service still exists for a reason. There is a big and very important dfference between, Superman is physically stronger or Superman is outright superior.
The core of what Siegel and Shuster have intended is also still there, and any Superman where that was not the case got rightfully criticized, often even heavily.
Wonder Woman should be faster than Superman or at least equal to him. Her speed comes from a god famous for his speed. And she used to be "swifter than Mercury" but somehow Superman is superior? It makes no sense. Now that I think about it's also pretty silly that Cheetah is faster than her.
Perhaps it would have been better for Diana to be in her own continuity.
[QUOTE=Psy-lock;5431824]Wonder Woman should be faster than Superman or at least equal to him. Her speed comes from a god famous for his speed. And she used to be "swifter than Mercury" but somehow Superman is superior? It makes no sense. [B]Now that I think about it's also pretty silly that Cheetah is faster than her.[/B][/QUOTE]
Cheetah has always been faster than Diana, even golden age Cheetah who "had no powers" was said to run 70 mph. :p
(...although in Wonder Woman's first appearance she was sprinting at 80 mph, but then Marston retconed that issue, sort of, so who knows!)
I mean, it's all silly to begin with that an alien who gets his powers from the sun is in anyway stronger than a god.
But in the end, I don't really care if WW is a little weaker that Superman because they gave him like, 20 physical weakness and she doesn't have any (anymore).
Plus, I mean...it really doesn't matter who should be stronger. They all have impressive feats and they all have power levels that change for the plot.
[QUOTE=I'm a Fish;5431933]Cheetah has always been faster than Diana, even golden age Cheetah who "had no powers" was said to run 70 mph. :p
(...although in Wonder Woman's first appearance she was sprinting at 80 mph, but then Marston retconed that issue, sort of, so who knows!)
I mean, it's all silly to begin with that an alien who gets his powers from the sun is in anyway stronger than a god.
But in the end, I don't really care if WW is a little weaker that Superman because they gave him like, 20 physical weakness and she doesn't have any (anymore).
Plus, I mean...it really doesn't matter who should be stronger. They all have impressive feats and they all have power levels that change for the plot.[/QUOTE]
That a divine Cheetah is faster than Wonder Woman don't seems like a stretch to me, at least not if they are finally constant with it and make Cheetah a kind of speedster,. And i don't care much about if Superman is physically stronger, but the weaknesses argument holds no water until Wonder Woman constantly has no bullets, blades and piercing weakness anymore, until many of Superman's other weaknesses than kryptonite even constantly matter, and especially until Wonder Woman either also has a regularily usable super mode or Superman can't just drastically increase his power anymore with sun dipping. And the latter had lately even utterly ridiculous results.
But the true problem is that far more often than not the plot worked against Wonder Woman, and if not to make Batman look good, typically to make Superman look good. And in that regard is it even kind of a disadvantage that Wonder Woman is part of the trinity.
[QUOTE=Rightoya;5431699]Well in that case should DC finally lose the rights on Wonder Woman/just sell them, because it is meant to be that way without any doubt, the whole character Wonder Woman has no true purpose without that because we are talking about the literal core and reason for why she got created without any room for big interpretations in the question of being equal to Superman or even more what he represents in that regard. And DC even kind of seems to understand that, because all the unfulfilled lip service still exists for a reason. There is a big and very important dfference between, Superman is physically stronger or Superman is outright superior.
The core of what Siegel and Shuster have intended is also still there, and any Superman where that was not the case got rightfully criticized, often even heavily.[/QUOTE]
Maybe DC should. In some ways, both Wonder Woman and Superman shouldn't be in a shared universe.
Until that happens though, no use complaining about something that clearly isn't going to happen.
[QUOTE=I'm a Fish;5431933]Cheetah has always been faster than Diana, even golden age Cheetah who "had no powers" was said to run 70 mph. :p
(...although in Wonder Woman's first appearance she was sprinting at 80 mph, but then Marston retconed that issue, sort of, so who knows!)[/QUOTE]
I think Priscilla was vaguely meant to be superhuman. On the Tv Tropes page for Golden Age Wonder Woman, they compare her to other "new humans" like Gail Young or Lana Kurree who were evolving differently and getting powers. Her speed is speculated to be part of that.
yep, Marston did Mutants first.
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5432220]
I think Priscilla was vaguely meant to be superhuman. On the Tv Tropes page for Golden Age Wonder Woman, they compare her to other "new humans" like Gail Young or Lana Kurree who were evolving differently and getting powers. Her speed is speculated to be part of that.
[B]yep, Marston did Mutants first.[/B][/QUOTE]
*x-men theme song intensifys*
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5432220]Maybe DC should. In some ways, both Wonder Woman and Superman shouldn't be in a shared universe.
Until that happens though, no use complaining about something that clearly isn't going to happen.
[/QUOTE]
Probably.
On the contrary, looking at the story about DCAU Superman and the fan complains should there be probably more complain about the constant nerfing of Wonder Woman especially to prop up Superman or others, but more proactively. It is kind of baffling anyway how that can be so hard for them for just 2 characters already, i have to say DC seems incredibly incompetent in that and many other regards, which makes me often think they just still exist because of being there since so long and having so many big names to be honest.
[QUOTE=Rightoya;5432246]Probably.
On the contrary, looking at the story about DCAU Superman and the fan complains should there be probably more complain about the constant nerfing of Wonder Woman especially to prop up Superman or others, but more proactively. It is kind of baffling anyway how that can be so hard for them for just 2 characters already, i have to say DC seems incredibly incompetent in that and many other regards, which makes me often think they just still exist because of being there since so long and having so many big names to be honest.[/QUOTE]
I don't think there's exactly a shortage of fans complaining if Diana gets nerfed so Clark can keep his title as the strongest. :p
Though to be honest there's things that annoy me more about DCAU Diana, and Clark to a lesser degree, than the issue of whether or not they were nerfed.
I hope they put Wonder Woman back on the Justice League Dark when she returns from the Sphere of Gods, I really like that book.
[QUOTE=VonHammersmark;5433527]I hope they put Wonder Woman back on the Justice League Dark when she returns from the Sphere of Gods, I really like that book.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that was easily the best team book she's been on.
[QUOTE=Agent Z;5431841]Perhaps it would have been better for Diana to be in her own continuity.[/QUOTE]
Hard to argue against when generally the worst parts of the best runs on WW tend to be when stuff from the rest of the DC Universe tends forces itself into the book or lame ensemble stuff like Justice League and [I]Injustice[/I]. :p
[QUOTE=Agent Z;5431841]Perhaps it would have been better for Diana to be in her own continuity.[/QUOTE]
As fun as them all existing in the same world can be, honestly I think most of the characters would be better off in their own continuity. At the very least it erases power wars and questions of worth within a lore.