I kind of hope the time Luchadores pull a Bane and break Jon's back I feel that would be asthetically pleasing.
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I kind of hope the time Luchadores pull a Bane and break Jon's back I feel that would be asthetically pleasing.
Ugh. I dont even wanna think about Bane right now. He's another one I cant look at the same again due to recent-ish events xD
[QUOTE=Blue22;5300675]Ugh. I dont even wanna think about Bane right now. He's another one I cant look at the same again due to recent-ish events xD[/QUOTE]
What they do to BANE!?!?
[QUOTE=Journey;5300683]What they do to BANE!?!?[/QUOTE]
I'm just...so over him after all the ridiculousness that was Tom King's run. I seriously hope we go a long time without seeing him again. I'd go way off topic if I started to rant about all my issues with Bane in that run. But the short version of it is that I found his entire plan to be on "Joker orchestrated Jason Todd's existence" levels of contrived and stupid.
[QUOTE=Blue22;5300691]I'm just...so over him after all the ridiculousness that was Tom King's run. I seriously hope we go a long time without seeing him again. I'd go way off topic if I started to rant about all my issues with Bane in that run. But the short version of it is that I found his entire plan to be on "Joker orchestrated Jason Todd's existence" levels of contrived and stupid.[/QUOTE]
Oy DC just stayed letting their writers fuck up their characters this year tragic.
[QUOTE=Journey;5300699]Oy DC just stayed letting their writers fuck up their characters this year tragic.[/QUOTE]
Well...to be fair, the fucking up of both of those characters didnt start this year lol
And the verdict is still out on whether or not they'll continue fucking up with Jon. I'm just not too optimistic, given what we've seen so far.
[QUOTE=Blue22;5300636]That would be fucking wonderful. Unfortunately, it would mean Jon's allowed to be more than New 52 Clark's reincarnation. And DC just ain't on board with that apparently.[/QUOTE]
that just shows dc's incompetence. Jon is a new character, which means that they had almost absolute freedom about their history, they could have Jon instead of school go with the legion, in the morning to the future in the afternoon at home with mom and dad, Mxyzptlk sending to Jon to worlds similar to other universes (Jon in Naruto), Jon was perfect for the craziest and funniest stories of the superverse, but they turned him into a copy of Clark, which limits Clark's stories and instead of getting a new character we have Clark but not Clark.
[QUOTE=Superlad93;5299766]But do you remember what actually happened though? The galaxy was about to rip itself apart, and the hawk person looked to Clark and said Jor-El said he'd know what to do, but Clark had nothing. He's thinking along the same lines of conflict that started this mess to begin with. All the adults are. But Jon's like can we all just call a timeout really quick and maybe act like the adults you are? Then from there it's actually the Legion showing up and saying yeah it'll work that gets people to go along with it.
And from there it's the actually the hawk person who sits down and does the heavy lifting of creating the foundation for the UP. He acts as the speaker, provides the homeworld, and later even scopes out the abandoned Daxam world that will be UP HQ for the next 1000 years. Clark's star power, physical power, and sway were tools in a tool kit for other people who either had the ideas or the plans/vision. Outside of adding Earth to the UP and voting on some legislation, Clark never actually added to the UP, no. He protected the idea when people came to destroy it, and he inspired people to keep with it when it seemed like the universe wasn't ready for it. So where's the Haw guy's congratulations 1000 years from now? I'm not gonna credit a rock star who got people to show up to vote for a bill using their star power, and the history books won't either (not a one-to-one, no). They accomplishments that Earth makes after every time Clark saves it and then gives a rousing speech about keeping your head up are not therefore going to be his accomplishments, so why would the UP's creation be his? He even said things like "I'm sure Mongul won't have tried this if I were here, but I had complications back on home to deal with". He's not dumb. He gets what he adds to the situations.
Equating Jon to some bum in the back smoking a bowling and just throwing stuff out there is pretty harsh. But more importantly overlooks the obvious parallel of kids in the real world who see the world around basically on fire for one reason or another while adults act like it *must* be like this because they're so deeply entrenched in the mess they've made and inherited that they don't see the forest. Bendis hinted at this idea very early on during the flashback in issue 4 when Jon's smashing a car because he's mad. Clark says to him that even at such a young age, Jon has something to offer: perspective. And so we see that perspective used to save the galaxy. If this were real life, and a kid came out onto the UN floor while WWIII was getting ready to happen, and they somehow stopped the arguing nations by putting forth an actionable idea. You know damn well that I'm not giving a rat's ass about all the stuff white shirts who are only now going "hmm, maybe not blow each other up?" From then on the headline is "kid saves world" and it's correct.
And once again, we're not talking about 20 years in the future, or even 100. This is a 1000 years in the future where only the most mythic aspects really live. No one's gonna be like "and then Superman punched Mongul in the face...again, but this time it was to save the UP." It's like, do you want to give Clark a cookie for doing what he's been doing, but this time for the UP? The Hawk guy should get a cookie over Clark, if we're being real. Dude died for it. But in my opinion you shouldn't get a cookie for being a got damn adult, doing what you're supposed to do, and *not* blowing yourself and your kids up. Damn sure shouldn't get one if it takes a kid to make you see that maybe blowing each other up is dumb. Nah man.[/QUOTE]
Again, the entire thing would have collapsed were it not for Clark and American politics are showing us that being an adult is a very rare thing among leaders, so yes, cookies all around! I am being harsh to Jon, but if you've noticed from my posting history, I live in hyperbole so there's that. Morevoer, "Superman punches x in the face but this time to save y" is the story of his life. I get that you're saying that doesn't make it special, but the entire thesis to his character is being the guy who stands up to punch x in the face to save y. It's kind of disrespectful to consider this man made a legend out of himself being the one person who never let us down and brought the universe together (yes, at his son's suggestion) to a table because his kid said "let's be a united planets!"
I know he beats up Mongul all the time, but consider: who else could have? Mongul kind of stands in for the reason the UP can only happen if Clark's around: he's the only one who can really be its champion. The entire thing requires him to function and doesn't exist no matter who has the idea unless Clark steps up. Jon, the Hawk Guy, none of them really matter if Clark isn't there to set it up. I wouldn't care at all if they called Jon their preferred Superman or if they thought anything of him, but calling him the UP's creator because it was his idea is just goddamn mindboggling. I probably wouldn't care as much if the Legion wasn't also taken from Clark, but as it stands, Clark does all the leg work (like in DC's history) to get shafted when it comes time to reap the rewards.
To be as unflattering as possible and hammer the point in, Jon is Bob Kane and Clark is Bill Finger. Kane has the idea for Batman and a rough concept, Finger does all the actual work making the character that endured the test of time. Kane got rich, Finger died with nothing. 80 years later he's finally getting some official credit. Clark gets 0. And at least Kane drew those stories. Jon just put the idea in and then went to the future to reap the rewards of Clark's labor. Clark deserves way more respect in the future but got pretty much nothing. I love Jon, but isn't cool.
[QUOTE=Robanker;5301120]Again, the entire thing would have collapsed were it not for Clark and American politics are showing us that being an adult is a very rare thing among leaders, so yes, cookies all around! I am being harsh to Jon, but if you've noticed from my posting history, I live in hyperbole so there's that. Morevoer, "Superman punches x in the face but this time to save y" is the story of his life. I get that you're saying that doesn't make it special, but the entire thesis to his character is being the guy who stands up to punch x in the face to save y. It's kind of disrespectful to consider this man made a legend out of himself being the one person who never let us down and brought the universe together (yes, at his son's suggestion) to a table because his kid said "let's be a united planets!"
I know he beats up Mongul all the time, but consider: who else could have? Mongul kind of stands in for the reason the UP can only happen if Clark's around: he's the only one who can really be its champion. The entire thing requires him to function and doesn't exist no matter who has the idea unless Clark steps up. Jon, the Hawk Guy, none of them really matter if Clark isn't there to set it up. I wouldn't care at all if they called Jon their preferred Superman or if they thought anything of him, but calling him the UP's creator because it was his idea is just goddamn mindboggling. I probably wouldn't care as much if the Legion wasn't also taken from Clark, but as it stands, Clark does all the leg work (like in DC's history) to get shafted when it comes time to reap the rewards.
To be as unflattering as possible and hammer the point in, Jon is Bob Kane and Clark is Bill Finger. Kane has the idea for Batman and a rough concept, Finger does all the actual work making the character that endured the test of time. Kane got rich, Finger died with nothing. 80 years later he's finally getting some official credit. Clark gets 0. And at least Kane drew those stories. Jon just put the idea in and then went to the future to reap the rewards of Clark's labor. Clark deserves way more respect in the future but got pretty much nothing. I love Jon, but isn't cool.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, honestly that's what bothered me the most about the way the Legion treated Jon like some magic messiah while flat out ignoring Clark. It's especially in bad taste considering the Legion was originally his. I checked out on Legion after a while so can someone confirm whether or not Jon ever bothers to correct anyone about his father's significance? Or at the very least reject the unnecessarily high pedestal they put him on? Or does he just take it all in stride like he really is the sole reason the UP worked? Please tell me it all amounted to more than just hyping Jon up as the "One True Superman"
wonder woman,captain marvel,supergirl,mary marvel,black adam any of the flying "paragons" dc has could have beaten mongol.And dc has a bunch of them.even marvel has them.Also,i am fairly certain many green lanterns have built an actual rapport intergalactic way.So,i am sure anyone of these dudes would be able to bring a united planets or whatever.If jon was actually gonna be the one to do it.People would be complaining he is stealing superman's panel time.Well,that's gonna happen anyways(stealing part).So,jon might as well have done the whole unite the united planets by punching mongal shtick.Mongal hasn't been a threat since 1985.And that's that.
edit-[B]You know i find it ironic and funny,the guy that tries to act like an example for humanity and savior who saves people from themselves.Got treated like a random dude in the room.While,this kid who is barreling through things is treated like a messiah.I love it.[/B]
[QUOTE=Blue22;5301138]Yeah, honestly that's what bothered me the most about the way the Legion treated Jon like some magic messiah while flat out ignoring Clark. It's especially in bad taste considering the Legion was originally his. I checked out on Legion after a while so can someone confirm whether or not Jon ever bothers to correct anyone about his father's significance? Or at the very least reject the unnecessarily high pedestal they put him on? Or does he just take it all in stride like he really is the sole reason the UP worked? Please tell me it all amounted to more than just hyping Jon up as the "One True Superman"[/QUOTE]
I still find that scene of the Legion coming in and going "sorry Superman, we're here for Jon!" so utterly hilarious with how blatant Bendis was being :p.
[QUOTE=Frontier;5301223]I still find that scene of the Legion coming in and going "sorry Superman, we're here for Jon!" so utterly hilarious with how blatant Bendis was being :p.[/QUOTE]
Ah the Legion being dicks to Clark. A tale as old as time.
[QUOTE=Robanker;5301120]Again, the entire thing would have collapsed were it not for Clark and American politics are showing us that being an adult is a very rare thing among leaders, so yes, cookies all around![/QUOTE]
I'm sorry, but I simply don't have it in me to give a pat on the back to grown ass people who need a child to have them not start space WWIII out of sheer bullheadedness or, in Clark's case, complacency and a near allergy to change. I just don't. Like I said, if this were real life, the kid who stepped up on stage and made the suggestion gets the cookie, and not the rock star dad who had the pull to do this years ago, but didn't, and only now lends his voice and sway. And I think the history books would agree.
[QUOTE]I know he beats up Mongul all the time, but consider: who else could have? Mongul kind of stands in for the reason the UP can only happen if Clark's around: he's the only one who can really be its champion.[/QUOTE]
That makes him a galactic bouncer, but not the creator of it. Again, Clark doesn't get credit for all the achievements humanity will make simply because he stops the Earth from blowing up every other day. Clark facilitates an environment for those advancements to happen in the same way he facilitated his son's voice to be heard, and later the UP stay up an running. He's its protector.
.
[QUOTE]To be as unflattering as possible and hammer the point in, Jon is Bob Kane and Clark is Bill Finger.[/QUOTE]
But that's not even remotely appropriate. That doesn't take into account the fact that Clark *could* have done this at nearly any time, or that his almost inherent complacency in nearly all aspects of his life is part of what blinded him to this need, or that Jon represents an oncoming generation of kids who are just old enough to see that the world their inheriting is being trashed by adults too close to the situation to realize the damage they're doing. Your comparison unfairly places them as equals and collaborates, but that's not the case. A 17 year old child shouldn't have had to yell time out on a bunch of a adults, but that's where they were at. And Clark's inactivity in maximizing his potential was part of the issue.
To be fair,Clark is complacent cause he has everything he wants and more.So why wouldn't he be?I am gonna say it.The story of clark kent has passed it's third act.
[QUOTE=Superlad93;5301244]I'm sorry, but I simply don't have it in me to give a pat on the back to grown ass people who need a child to have them not start space WWIII out of sheer bullheadedness or, in Clark's case, complacency and a near allergy to change. I just don't. Like I said, if this were real life, the kid who stepped up on stage and made the suggestion gets the cookie, and not the rock star dad who had the pull to do this years ago, but didn't, and only now lends his voice and sway. And I think the history books would agree.
That makes him a galactic bouncer, but not the creator of it. Again, Clark doesn't get credit for all the achievements humanity will make simply because he stops the Earth from blowing up every other day. Clark facilitates an environment for those advancements to happen in the same way he facilitated his son's voice to be heard, and later the UP stay up an running. He's its protector.
.
But that's not even remotely appropriate. That doesn't take into account the fact that Clark *could* have done this at nearly any time, or that his almost inherent complacency in nearly all aspects of his life is part of what blinded him to this need, or that Jon represents an oncoming generation of kids who are just old enough to see that the world their inheriting is being trashed by adults too close to the situation to realize the damage they're doing. Your comparison unfairly places them as equals and collaborates, but that's not the case. A 17 year old child shouldn't have had to yell time out on a bunch of a adults, but that's where they were at. And Clark's inactivity in maximizing his potential was part of the issue.[/QUOTE]
Don't get me wrong, Jon is unquestionably the spark. He had the idea, but not really the vision. He didn't lay anything down, he just said "what about a United Planets like the United Nations?" I have a background in programming, so forgive me if I shit on "idea guys" because there are a million of them who try and take equal credit for an idea without actually implementing it. An idea is exactly 1% of coding, the hard part is the actual body of work and trial/error to debug (which never actually ends). Jon had a great idea. Clark had to code the UP. He had to debug it. He had to make sure the house didn't burn down so Jon could inherit it and-- ideally-- iterate and improve. I would argue history books [B]don't[/B] give credit to the spark because most achievements go to the leaders who implement them, not specifically the people who came up with the idea.
Do we really remember the people who strategized every successful presidential election? No, we remember who got elected. In films, do the writers get the lion's share of credit for a great plot or does the director rake in all the credit (and blame) because the buck stopped with them? WW84 is proof of that because for every complaint about Johns helping write it, there's ten aimed at Jenkins. Ideas are important. They're inspiration. Words. They're not action, which is what ultimately imparts change. Words can inspire people to action but someone has to put it in motion. Going back to the presidential metaphor for a brief moment, the candidate still needs to put that team together, go out and be the cohesive element that ties everyone's ideas and actions together. They need to be the one to unite a country. They need to be the person who enacts a change and they're the ones remembered for it. They are the ones remembered. They are the ones assassinated. They are who we speak of. Who was in Washington's cabinet? Who was the writer of Citizen Kane? Who told Jerry and Joe to refine their initial pitch of Superman when that didn't take off? Ideas are important. They matter. I don't like downplaying Jon, but I need to to illustrate that his spark means nothing if there's nothing to catch its flame-- to spread the heat of his ideals; without Clark to put it in motion, his idea is snuffed out like everyone before him who undoubtedly asked "why not sue for peace?"
Clark doesn't need a cookie for finally taking a more proactive role in securing the future, but he also doesn't deserve to be relegated to a footnote because his son once said "why don't we just work together" and then ran off to the future. He deserves his due, as does Jon, who at that stage did nothing more than offer a solution without any suggestion or influence in how to properly implement it.
Jon was the spark-- he provided the motivation. He absolutely should be a part of the history of the UP's inception-- but its creator? That's a burned bridge too far.
I don't like arguing with you, man. Let's go back to Time Luchadors! ;)