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I was always fine with T'Challa and Ororo losing their virginity at 12. It seems only americans had issue with it. Almost everyone I know with family outside the usa seem to be fine with it. I think it was just culture shock for them.when these thing are quite normal elsewhere in the world.
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Also Clearmont laid most of the groundwork for Tchalla and Ororo. From their meeting, losing virginity, separate and ect.
I really feel alot of fans had no idea of this. So when hudlin came along it's seem force.
Also Storm Fans ban together in hate due to them thinking she was removed from the Xbooks to prop him up , when that was not the case. She just wasn't being used at all in the xbooks.
And alot of BP fan hate the pairing cause it was a nightmare dealing with toxic Storm fan.
Now if we can all get past the hate and welcome some future Storm and Tchalla babies , Goddess be praise.
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[QUOTE=butterflykyss;5373164]And I just wanted to also add that those stating that the two were put together simply because they were black support my earlier point that some readers are not well versed on 616 canon.
Prior to the their marriage both the xbooks and the bp books made very clear the two had a deep affinity for one another:
[img]https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/hostedimages/1503704315i/23687846._SY540_.jpg[/img]
[img]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/VqUnkVRgFYW15oRsdqkhVUfET0L_e9k0pPhHB6VPOI9zEzbciOQpr7VyCqpuk7LH1YysuxtaoAue=s1600[/img]
[img]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/VnzAeoWeTvEOjacttGVEkS5Gr_eiScQeH7XYetdSlh5IJLrMzvcthdvXji0jFlTtOJzjXqHV3KBW=s1600[/img][/QUOTE]
What comic issues is the 2nd and third images?
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I never had a problem with the idea of them together but how it happened as said really did leave a bad taste in my mouth but i actually gave it a chance and bought some books and the story hudlin wrote completely turned me off. I did not grow up in a house with a submissive mother that did everything my father said. I'm sure some people did. My father worked and my mother paid all the bills and did most of the heavy lifting it wasn't until she came up to a wall that my father stepped in but they always supported each other. I never saw my father try to make my mother less than what she was so from my perspective that is what felt like hudlin was doing. He did not imo see black women the way i personally do as Strong and he didn't see black men as i saw them, a true black man knows he is only as strong as his woman because they get stronger together.
But there was nothing else. They offered no Storm material, nothing, she literally went from lead to supporting character and they completely pulled her out the x-books and those of us who didn't even read BP at the time had no where else we could even go to read storm except a place where she was written subordinate.
As for claremont, he himself said they were enver meant to be together. He himself said they were too powerful in personality and neither would relent and in a lot of ways he was right expect hudlin had ororo continuously relenting.
Then came coates, i personally was enjoying Extraodinary Xmen and i vs x and there was peace among fans again and coates came along and i stanned him hard in the beginning, i really did, i didn't listen to some of the gripes about his writing like slavery and stuff but after years of reading tchalla being nothing but good to Ororo there was just no going back for me when he had her basically dress him down to Nakia and act like he was some basic dude that didn't change. I honestly felt in the relationship BP was the true VIP this time around but that is all Ororo wrote. I don't want to read about a man so desperately in love with a woman, a king fighting slavery to get back to her, for him to be treated like some basic manslut. But that's just me personally, if i'm honest i don't do the groupthink if i like it i like it. To me it never made sense though how people tried to make it personal on both sides when as far as i'm concerned it never was for me it was purely the material and the fact that one could only be up at a time it seems.
There has never been middle ground. And honestly for me i didn't think there was any going back after they actually wrote Cap telling him to sit down and him watching his wife leave. To me that was worse than the annulment, worse than the fist fight but i still gave it another chance. I'm just done. It's not like i have a personal vendetta against them i just never got anything out of it as a purchaser of material but disappointment, confusion, and a distaste for the phrase "black love."
The only way i will accept it at this point is a splinter team from both franchises that work to build up both characers and have Storm reach out to her homeland in kenya as well. I need more than just a queen when im use to reading a warrior goddess. But i hope they never go there again just so i don't have to deal wiith it to be honest.
Especially since as is i'm only holding on to comics by a thread. I'm just so over having to feel like i have to fight to buy something to be represented in. And the black face art they do (white people painted black to look black or asian people colored orange to look asian) makes me nausea to look at lately. Why in a visual medium can't artist do facial features (but now im just tangenting so i shall end it here.)
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[QUOTE=BlkGldBlu;5373238]Also Clearmont laid most of the groundwork for Tchalla and Ororo. From their meeting, losing virginity, separate and ect.
[/QUOTE]
Claremont didn't have them hook up as kids. That detail was added in the 2006 series by Eric Jerome Dickey which was a mess. In Claremont's story she saved him from slavers and they hung out for a few days until their respective obligations took them in opposite directions. The end.
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[QUOTE=yogaflame;5373550]Claremont didn't have them hook up as kids. That detail was added in the 2006 series by Eric Jerome Dickey which was a mess. In Claremont's story she saved him from slavers and they hung out for a few days until their respective obligations took them in opposite directions. The end.[/QUOTE]
In hindsight, Claremont and Priest easily had the best take on the T’Challa-Ororo dynamic. They’re old friends who bonded in their youth during times of great self-discovery and have lingering attraction to one another in their adult years. While in an ideal world where their obligations were not the priority they’d happily explore a relationship, the pressures of their stations make a long term romance impossible so they’re only left with what could’ve been.
That doesn’t stop them from working together every now and then or even some flirting, but they’re both mature enough to realize they need to see other people and be leaders for their respective peoples. Anything more than that is just asking for editorial stupidity and fandom wars about who gets top billing. Two characters from two separate franchises should not mix for any extended period of time, most writers lack the ability to preserve any semblance of balance and Marvel’s penchant for toxic romances makes it inevitable someone will be thrown under the bus.
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[QUOTE=yogaflame;5373550]Claremont didn't have them hook up as kids. That detail was added in the 2006 series by Eric Jerome Dickey which was a mess. In Claremont's story she saved him from slavers and they hung out for a few days until their respective obligations took them in opposite directions. The end.[/QUOTE]
Just reread team up and priest. Chris C treatment of both of them seems to eluded to them being each other first.
And ross also did the same. But you right it was officially stated until Dickey.
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[QUOTE=chief12d;5373571]In hindsight, Claremont and Priest easily had the best take on the T’Challa-Ororo dynamic. They’re old friends who bonded in their youth during times of great self-discovery and have lingering attraction to one another in their adult years. While in an ideal world where their obligations were not the priority they’d happily explore a relationship, the pressures of their stations make a long term romance impossible so they’re only left with what could’ve been.
That doesn’t stop them from working together every now and then or even some flirting, but they’re both mature enough to realize they need to see other people and be leaders for their respective peoples. Anything more than that is just asking for editorial stupidity and fandom wars about who gets top billing. Two characters from two separate franchises should not mix for any extended period of time, most writers lack the ability to preserve any semblance of balance and Marvel’s penchant for toxic romances makes it inevitable someone will be thrown under the bus.[/QUOTE]
My thoughts exactly.
Claremont made his view crystal clear in that first story:
[IMG]https://static1.cbrimages.com/wp-content/uploads/goodcomics/2012/06/ororotchalla5.jpg[/IMG]
Friendzone. FOREVER.
[IMG]https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia1.tenor.com%2Fimages%2Fef9448c3c2deb4951dad18df841948a4%2Ftenor.gif%3Fitemid%3D13736720&f=1&nofb=1[/IMG]
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[QUOTE=BlkGldBlu;5373599]Just reread team up and priest. Chris C treatment of both of them seems to eluded to them being each other first.
And ross also did the same. But you right it was officially stated until Dickey.[/QUOTE]
You can imagine anything you want, but it's explicit in Priest's version they didn't even kiss as children.
[IMG]https://abload.de/img/1ossx7.jpg[/IMG]
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[QUOTE=lemonpeace;5372325]this is something that I have always been hesitant to ask, why so much animosity regarding Storm and Black Panther's relationship. I always thought it was a cool little idea, powerful black icons come together and become the black power couple of comics; made sense enough. but I've always notice they are like a faction or section of fans who just vehemently hate the idea to a kinda weird degree I notice it particularly among the BP fans but I think that may have something to do with the BP fans here not liking Coates work. is/was there some sort of problematic element about it (maybe something I'm missing as someone who isn't the deepest Storm or T'Challa expert) or is it just a lowkey shipping "she's/he's not the one [b]i[/b] would've had him/her with" type thing? I would've asked in the BP thread but the BP thread gets kinda dramatic over Storm or Coates in my experience.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="#000080"]Lol, okay let's not characterize all BP fandom. Every appreciation thread you go in will have drama so don't single out BP fans.
First of all, a lot of BP fans fought for the marriage even as other people were against it. Once the marriage was over and especially the horrible way that some writers under the X-umbrella handled it, BP fans said frak it and walked away. Some X-writers continued to play with the relationship in a negative way which BP fans didn't like. The Coates comes along with his take which BP fans knew would lead to disaster. But some fans enjoyed what Coates was doing and it became a thing again.
I'll be the first to say that I had animosity towards Storm. I was pro-BP and anti-Storm, blamed her for everything. I was wrong and I admit it.
Now I still don't want them back together because the same dumb isht the X-offices were doing before will happen again and we've seen evidence of it. Marvel doesn't want the relationship to work and it's not worth fighting about it anymore. Both characters have good things going for them(Storm is getting some much needed focus and Coates is getting the hell of BP) so we should be celebrating for both characters and hope the continue to get some shine.
Moveon.org[/COLOR]
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[QUOTE=yogaflame;5373657]You can imagine anything you want, but it's explicit in Priest's version they didn't even kiss as children.
[IMG]https://abload.de/img/1ossx7.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
I guess you right, but I'm glad that it's canon that their each other first . Young love to true love.
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[QUOTE=BlkGldBlu;5373231]I was always fine with T'Challa and Ororo losing their virginity at 12. It seems only americans had issue with it. Almost everyone I know with family outside the usa seem to be fine with it. I think it was just culture shock for them.when these thing are quite normal elsewhere in the world.[/QUOTE]
I am European, and honestly, I was not shocked by that. You see at my country we have black minority and I do read about African traditions and stories, what happened between T'Challa and Ororo, when Ororo was at twelve is not something surprising. Those who actually read about African traditions, and some of their stories followed by a few other tribes that represent closely Africans, you will find out that at age 8 to 10 the boy chooses his girl (I will add here important note. Ororo asked T'Challa if he had someone special and he told her that he didn't find the right girl yet) and after that, the boy starts to flirt, the girl has the freedom to accept his flirts or decline his advances. If the girl responds positively at age of 12 to 15 the girl loses her virginity to the boy. When it comes to African traditions, what happened between T'Challa and Ororo is not a shock, it is natural. Yes, it happened a bit too fast. I agree with that, but here is the moment when I will input European term, first-sight love. Something which Americans fail to understand most of the time because they see love and marriage differently.
In my personal opinion, everything was natural between Ororo and T'Challa and if Americans have problems with that, then they should probably pull their heads out of the ground and actually sit and read more about African history and traditions. It is rich.
[QUOTE=jwatson;5373264]I never had a problem with the idea of them together but how it happened as said really did leave a bad taste in my mouth but i actually gave it a chance and bought some books and the story hudlin wrote completely turned me off. I did not grow up in a house with a submissive mother that did everything my father said. I'm sure some people did. My father worked and my mother paid all the bills and did most of the heavy lifting it wasn't until she came up to a wall that my father stepped in but they always supported each other. I never saw my father try to make my mother less than what she was so from my perspective that is what felt like hudlin was doing. He did not imo see black women the way i personally do as Strong and he didn't see black men as i saw them, a true black man knows he is only as strong as his woman because they get stronger together.
But there was nothing else. They offered no Storm material, nothing, she literally went from lead to supporting character and they completely pulled her out the x-books and those of us who didn't even read BP at the time had no where else we could even go to read storm except a place where she was written subordinate.
As for claremont, he himself said they were enver meant to be together. He himself said they were too powerful in personality and neither would relent and in a lot of ways he was right expect hudlin had ororo continuously relenting.
Then came coates, i personally was enjoying Extraodinary Xmen and i vs x and there was peace among fans again and coates came along and i stanned him hard in the beginning, i really did, i didn't listen to some of the gripes about his writing like slavery and stuff but after years of reading tchalla being nothing but good to Ororo there was just no going back for me when he had her basically dress him down to Nakia and act like he was some basic dude that didn't change. I honestly felt in the relationship BP was the true VIP this time around but that is all Ororo wrote. I don't want to read about a man so desperately in love with a woman, a king fighting slavery to get back to her, for him to be treated like some basic manslut. But that's just me personally, if i'm honest i don't do the groupthink if i like it i like it. To me it never made sense though how people tried to make it personal on both sides when as far as i'm concerned it never was for me it was purely the material and the fact that one could only be up at a time it seems.
There has never been middle ground. And honestly for me i didn't think there was any going back after they actually wrote Cap telling him to sit down and him watching his wife leave. To me that was worse than the annulment, worse than the fist fight but i still gave it another chance. I'm just done. It's not like i have a personal vendetta against them i just never got anything out of it as a purchaser of material but disappointment, confusion, and a distaste for the phrase "black love."
The only way i will accept it at this point is a splinter team from both franchises that work to build up both characers and have Storm reach out to her homeland in kenya as well. I need more than just a queen when im use to reading a warrior goddess. But i hope they never go there again just so i don't have to deal wiith it to be honest.
Especially since as is i'm only holding on to comics by a thread. I'm just so over having to feel like i have to fight to buy something to be represented in. And the black face art they do (white people painted black to look black or asian people colored orange to look asian) makes me nausea to look at lately. Why in a visual medium can't artist do facial features (but now im just tangenting so i shall end it here.)[/QUOTE]
Once more, jwatson, I am sorry to do this to you, but I re-read the Black Panther Intergalactic storyline again, like yesterday so I can catch up with the new upcoming issues that will mark the end of it, and I must be honest with you. I really, really, honestly and very deeply think that you've misunderstood Storm's words. You need to concentrate on the entire event that has happened, Storm showed maturity, Black Panther showed maturity, I really, really don't see anything wrong at all with what happened, having in mind that Storm never told Nakia, you can have my man. I believe you intercepted her words wrongly.
She asked her to defend him and protect him, just like the Dora Mijare (Sorry if I pronounced that wrong) would do, but Storm [B]DOES NOT[/B] tell her, you can have my husband, she tells her that she hopes she will keep protecting him and be his faithful soldier, Guardian, even but nothing among the lines of what you assumed Storm told.
Storm clearly states a few bubbles before that she is trying to control her jealousy side, because if Storm didn't control herself, Nakia would have been burned alive and broken to million frozen pieces. Ororo loves T'Challa a lot, and T'Challa proves that as well with KIB: BP issue that came out this week. I am actually quite happy with how T'Challa handled the situation, he admitted his strong, powerful feelings for her but he is fully aware that there is nothing that he can do for her right at that moment and his country was at the danger he needed to prioritize and for that, I do respect T'Challa once more. I just hope that they don't ruin that moment with the next few issues.
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[QUOTE=Rang10;5373237]What comic issues is the 2nd and third images?[/QUOTE]
Uncanny X-men 387
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[QUOTE=The92Ghost;5373843]I am European, and honestly, I was not shocked by that. You see at my country we have black minority and I do read about African traditions and stories, what happened between T'Challa and Ororo, when Ororo was at twelve is not something surprising. Those who actually read about African traditions, and some of their stories followed by a few other tribes that represent closely Africans, you will find out that at age 8 to 10 the boy chooses his girl (I will add here important note. Ororo asked T'Challa if he had someone special and he told her that he didn't find the right girl yet) and after that, the boy starts to flirt, the girl has the freedom to accept his flirts or decline his advances. If the girl responds positively at age of 12 to 15 the girl loses her virginity to the boy. When it comes to African traditions, what happened between T'Challa and Ororo is not a shock, it is natural. Yes, it happened a bit too fast. I agree with that, but here is the moment when I will input European term, first-sight love. Something which Americans fail to understand most of the time because they see love and marriage differently.
In my personal opinion, everything was natural between Ororo and T'Challa and if Americans have problems with that, then they should probably pull their heads out of the ground and actually sit and read more about African history and traditions. It is rich.
Once more, jwatson, I am sorry to do this to you, but I re-read the Black Panther Intergalactic storyline again, like yesterday so I can catch up with the new upcoming issues that will mark the end of it, and I must be honest with you. I really, really, honestly and very deeply think that you've misunderstood Storm's words. You need to concentrate on the entire event that has happened, Storm showed maturity, Black Panther showed maturity, I really, really don't see anything wrong at all with what happened, having in mind that Storm never told Nakia, you can have my man. I believe you intercepted her words wrongly.
She asked her to defend him and protect him, just like the Dora Mijare (Sorry if I pronounced that wrong) would do, but Storm [B]DOES NOT[/B] tell her, you can have my husband, she tells her that she hopes she will keep protecting him and be his faithful soldier, Guardian, even but nothing among the lines of what you assumed Storm told.
Storm clearly states a few bubbles before that she is trying to control her jealousy side, because if Storm didn't control herself, Nakia would have been burned alive and broken to million frozen pieces. Ororo loves T'Challa a lot, and T'Challa proves that as well with KIB: BP issue that came out this week. I am actually quite happy with how T'Challa handled the situation, he admitted his strong, powerful feelings for her but he is fully aware that there is nothing that he can do for her right at that moment and his country was at the danger he needed to prioritize and for that, I do respect T'Challa once more. I just hope that they don't ruin that moment with the next few issues.[/QUOTE]
Just going to have to agree to disagree. I refuse to reread any of that. lol.
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[QUOTE=Rang10;5373237]What comic issues is the 2nd and third images?[/QUOTE]
uncanny 387. I like to point to this issue to show even the xoffices understood their connection and established it before hudlin was a factor.
[QUOTE=lemonpeace;5373228]hmmm so from what I'm gathering, in broad strokes, the breakdown mainly boils down to the BP/Marvel creative branch and the X-Men creative branch not being on the same page and enabling petty digs at the other camp. which I can see happening, especially from what I hear about the lengths Marvel went to undercut the X-Men at certain points in their history. there appears to have been some execution issues (that I clearly need to look into for a better idea) but it seems like outside of personal grievances the concept itself is viable if Marvel just sat down and worked it out. I think Storm's connection to Wakanda and their pantheon was a cool marriage of ideas, shame it ended up coming with so many hang-ups. given how much it appears to seesaw it might be for the best to leave well enough alone but, as someone who came up entirely removed from the drama of it, i would kinda like it if they figured it out one day. then again, I'm also someone rooting for John Stewart and Yrra Cyril to reconcile, so maybe I'm not the best judge in these things. anyway thanks for the responses tho.[/QUOTE]
yes that is it essentially and this pettiness is amplified by the portion of the fsndom that get satisfaction in that to degree.
I think Coates handled it fine. if big names like catwoman and batman can work surely tchalla and ororo can.