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[QUOTE=butterflykyss;5545043]no you actually said that on this forum and a poster made a reference to your initial shift and initial point of reference for not liking Coates when he wrote that issue with nuNakia and Storm. this was you today in this forum not anywhere else
I remember the initial discussions way back when because we had many exchanges and disagreed on what coates was saying. I recall actually being surprised at the shift because before that issue you always had good things to say about the book. at any rate moving along before this goes left enjoy your xbooks with storm![/QUOTE]
Was i not responded to? It's not like i came in here and just started talking about Storm and Tchalla i actually said something positive about coates and his legacy based on some promotional art for BP#1 that was posted in this thread, that then took me to the BP thread where i found the article from the new writer. It was really just that meaningless and me responding to what was presented today. Other people seem to want to go ove rand over and over the same things again and again. If i have time, i have time. lol
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[QUOTE=jwatson;5545055]Was i not responded to? It's not like i came in here and just started talking about Storm and Tchalla i actually said something positive about coates and his legacy based on some promotional art for BP#1 that was posted in this thread, that then took me to the BP thread where i found the article from the new writer. It was really just that meaningless and me responding to what was presented today. Other people seem to want to go ove rand over and over the same things again and again. If i have time, i have time. lol[/QUOTE]
I think there is a bit of miscommunication. I asked was all of this (back and forth) due to posters perceiving you should feel a certain way about seeing storm in the new BP run. it was a question not a statement. if you like the xbooks you are entitled to it but I thought you initially had issue with the reveal she was still in the BP books but you don't so that is resolved.
oan you made a point which I didn't even acknowledge but now I will.
yes I do have problems with how she was depicted in the xbooks. before Coates this was the storm we was getting, sleepy nap nap im a failure storm:
[img]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/nK_U2dyITMHRmGwtto82CDzSGmJ9URtqrhoSxxhflAV_H4RBEGCYHTya-gbs7LIc-4ucgF-FT4H4PrgheH-OKC5gExd41FS2J1nem4x43zOH2lDlq7M4d6DugPhZ5uMY4nVSRQ=s1600[/img]
coates out of nowhere came in and did a literal 180 by making her a freaking goddess. that was like such a huge deal even still because storm fans have been taking to task for years for even jokingly calling her one. so yes any writer that ain't coming with that type of energy i will see it as a problem. im a storm fan unapologetically and could care less which book she is featured so long as that respective book is giving her her fair due. The xbooks were not doing that since Claremont honestly and used writers in the BP world who showed genuine interest in her as an excuse not to include her in meaningfulways in the xstories. that is where stormbot came from because she was so uncharacteristically not the storm fans had grown to love, she was just a glorified token in the xbooks. so if what the xoffices thus far works for you thats great and you are entitled to love it and buy it. great!!! however, if we are having a serious discussion on critiquing coates use of storm him not using "windrider" in the grand scheme of all he did for the character especially when compared to what the xoffices have thus far down since the marriage ended is a hollow criticism imho.
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[QUOTE=butterflykyss;5545085]I think there is a bit of miscommunication. I asked was all of this (back and forth) due to posters perceiving you should feel a certain way about seeing storm in the new BP run. it was a question not a statement. if you like the xbooks you are entitled to it but I thought you initially had issue with the reveal she was still in the BP books but you don't so that is resolved.
oan you made a point which I didn't even acknowledge but now I will.
yes I do have problems with how she was depicted in the xbooks. before Coates this was the storm we was getting, sleepy nap nap im a failure storm:
[img]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/nK_U2dyITMHRmGwtto82CDzSGmJ9URtqrhoSxxhflAV_H4RBEGCYHTya-gbs7LIc-4ucgF-FT4H4PrgheH-OKC5gExd41FS2J1nem4x43zOH2lDlq7M4d6DugPhZ5uMY4nVSRQ=s1600[/img]
coates out of nowhere came in and did a literal 180 by making her a freaking goddess. that was like such a huge deal even still because storm fans have been taking to task for years for even jokingly calling her one. so yes any writer that ain't coming with that type of energy i will see it as a problem. im a storm fan unapologetically and could care less which book she is featured so long as that respective book is giving her her fair due. The xbooks were not doing that since Claremont honestly and used writers in the BP world who showed genuine interest in her as an excuse. so if what the xoffices this far works for you thats great and you are entitled to lobe it and buy it. however, if we are havjbf a serious discussion on critiquing coates use of storm him not using "windrider" in the grand scheme of all he did for the character especially when compared to what the xoffices have thus far down since the marriage ended is a hollow criticism imho.[/QUOTE]
It does seem there is a misunderstanding because your right i don't care if Storm is written in the bp books that is cool, the more books the better imo but people can't have it both ways imo not be upset Storm isn't explored in those book s if she is used but then upset if what happened in those books isn't explored in her home books. Even objectively speaking this is the xboard so what is brought over here is inherently going to be filtered through that lense in some way same as the tchalla thread on the other side not being viewed through that lense.
I wouldn't take it to the level of it being a criticism to be honest. It is more if fans want to tell me that is what coates is doing why didn't he just simply do it or say it's a translation. It's just simple logic and throw away thoughts for me. If coates was trying to say all that why didn't he just say it. There is no hidden meaning there.
Also i do love that page you posted because for me i can see it from Storm perspective, i put myself in the story. I can see how after what went on with the cloud and the company mandate that kept it around for so long how she would feel after such a thing she did fail to save lives, because it was out of her control but she did the best she could. But then objectively also at the time she was stepping down her role was picking up in wakanda so could one have been the cause of the other is just as valid a thought. i'm not in the behind the scenes loop so can only piece together what i see and information i come across.
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[QUOTE=jwatson;5545095]It does seem there is a misunderstanding because your right i don't care if Storm is written in the bp books that is cool, the more books the better imo but people can't have it both ways imo not be upset Storm isn't explored in those book s if she is used but then upset if what happened in those books isn't explored in her home books. Even objectively speaking this is the xboard so what is brought over here is inherently going to be filtered through that lense in some way same as the tchalla thread on the other side not being viewed through that lense.
I wouldn't take it to the level of it being a criticism to be honest. It is more if fans want to tell me that is what coates is doing why didn't he just simply do it or say it's a translation. It's just simple logic and throw away thoughts for me. If coates was trying to say all that why didn't he just say it. There is no hidden meaning there.[/QUOTE]
well we have to keep in mind, being upset about what is and what is not used is because this is a shared universe. for instance, if rogue during her avengers run had wonderman's power but in the xbooks was written as a street leveler fans would rightfully so have a right to call that into question. or if thor has the power of galactus in one book but in avengers he can't handle moon knight. fans would rightfully have issues and be fair to call the writers out. so this isn't the fault of fans and is reflective of editorial; it not fair to pins these scenarios on them when they see their faves getting their due especially when they have been ignored years. So ignore black panther for a second, why why haven't the xoffices explored:
1. her lineage (they've done it for nearly all the other a list xmen)*
2. bright lady/Oshtur
3. magic heritage
4. love interests*
5. power/abilities *
6. being african/African American woman (she doesn't encounter any racism its only because she's a mutant?) *
*explored by the bp books
it always been lip service. they say she is this or that but stories around her in the xoffice only go so far and it always revolve around being a mutant and/or an xman. people try to pin the blame on bp writers but this isn't their fault at all. the asterisk is why some fans call the xwriters out because even as a secondary or supporting character the bp offices have made an effort (hudlin/coates) to go beyond the one dimensional character storm has has always be to the xmen. some fans want more because they have been exposed to more and that is what happens when pandoras box is opened.
the thing is Coates explained what he was doing, and quite well, but yet there are still questions. such as windrider thing. your criticism was around the use of a name but he has shown many different layers of stories to show that what she was as a windrider to Kenyans, she was the same to wakandans. black panther 13 even invikes tge period where she was worshipped as goddess aka windrider:
[img]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/bY06zdtxBUQHV2ngmlxK2D7r-RGdTF55FaLtjS72AAtJtnT_dxEuZo0A_-jwiBDgF6GRKZLhBnL0jTuhVvH085IwV8V4yr9MnVLReZc775AJ6k2HR6U1CDazSoHGZO6hgPNR=s1600[/img]
it was just a different name but the connection always was there.
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[QUOTE=butterflykyss;5545124]well we have to keep in mind, being upset about what is and what is not used is because this is a shared universe. for instance, if rogue during her avengers run had wonderman's power but in the xbooks was written as a street leveler fans would rightfully so have a right to call that into question. or if thor has the power of galactus in one book but in avengers he can't handle moon knight. fans would rightfully have issues and be fair to call the writers out. so this isn't the fault of fans and is reflective of editorial; it not fair to pins these types of things thereof on them when they see their faves getting their due especially when they have been ignored years. So ignore black panther for a second, why why haven't the xoffices explored:
1. her lineage (they've done it for nearly all the other a list xmen)*
2. bright lady/Oshtur
3. magic heritage
4. love interests*
5. power/abilities *
6. being african/African American woman (she doesn't encounter any racism its only because she's a mutant?) *
*explored by the bp books
it always been lip service. they say she is this or that but stories around her in the xoffice only go so far and it always revolve around being a mutant and/or an xman. people try to pin the blame on bp writers but this isn't their fault at all. the asterisk is why some fans call the xwriters out because even as a secondary or supporting character the bp offices have made an effort (hudlin/coates) to go beyond the one dimensional character storm has has always be to the xmen. some fans want more because they have been exposed to more and that is what happens when pandoras box is opened.
the thing is Coates explained what he was doing, and quite well, but yet there are still questions. such as windrider thing. your criticism was around the use of a name but he has shown many different layers of stories to show that what she was as a windrider to Kenyans, she was the same to wakandans. it was just a different name.[/QUOTE]
Maybe they didn't want to give Fox more to work with? Why doesn't that make just as much sense given the climate of things than the emotional side of "it just didn't happen" Why isn't it just as feasible from a business stand point marvel was trying to do the same thing with Storm by tying her to BP/Wakana that they did with Wanda/Pietro before Disney got the rights back?
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[QUOTE=jwatson;5545132]Maybe they didn't want to give Fox more to work with? Why doesn't that make just as much sense given the climate of things than the emotional side of "it just didn't happen" Why isn't it just as feasible from a business stand point marvel was trying to do the same thing with Storm by tying her to BP/Wakana that they did with Wanda/Pietro before Disney got the rights back?[/QUOTE]
I think the part about fox would have been a fair one (I actually thought the same); however, even after Disney got the mutants back there seemed to be a need to distance ororo from what was happening in BP. No let me be fair here, some xwriters on twitter did acknowledge she was a real goddess and pointed to the uncanny xmen issue where she struck x-legion with lightning but thst still mostly felt like lip service and since then as you know under hickmans era that wrote that marauders issue which seemed mostly written to have a reason to separate the two down the line. synergy now is not inhibited by anyone other that those internal to marvel not wanting it to be so.
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How powerful I wanna see a full Powered Storm in the future
[ATTACH=CONFIG]109667[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]109668[/ATTACH]
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[QUOTE=LordAllMIghty;5545372]How powerful I wanna see a full Powered Storm in the future
[ATTACH=CONFIG]109667[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]109668[/ATTACH][/QUOTE]
marvel fans would lose their sh!t. I would totally be here for that though lol
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All of the new Storm news looks amazing. I will weigh in a bit on BP/Storm. I'm not a fan of the couple but it's not because I have a problem with them being together, it's more because of how it has played out and the lack of ability Marvel seems to have with taking care of both characters. The true issue in this relationship for me is that Storm and BP are both ICONIC characters and should be treated as such. Neither one deserves to only be a footnote/supporting character for the other. Black Panther has his own book and is an important hero throughout the Marvel Universe lore, so he's at least getting the respect he deserves. (This is why I think some fans are upset about Storm infiltrating his books and taking some of his shine away) Storm on the other hand has not. In the Claremont days yes she was, but since then she's been shitted on consistently (yes X Office I'm looking at you). While BP has definitely done wonders for her as a character and uplifting her recent importance, the biggest issue I have is that despite all of it's uplift, Storm would still be second fiddle to BP in his book and still doesn't have a book where the focus is on her in the X Books. That would be equivalent to Wonder Woman not having her own book but only being featured in JL or Superman as his love interest. While this could work for most characters, it just doesn't work for ICONIC and LABEL DEFINING characters like Wonder Woman and Storm. This is why Captain Marvel having a solo feels so odd when you have a woman who truly eclipses her in value fighting for attention in everyone else's book. And honestly, the more she is propped up in BP's book the more tied to his book she becomes which will either diminish her status or cloud BP's. Instead, if Storm had her own Solo, maybe even a joint book with BP, a role in the XMen, and casually featured in BP as his love interest, then I would feel like all of this goddess making, omnipotent power and MU wide importance stuff would make sense. Right now, it feels like a lot of lip service, and even though I appreciate all of the new feats, I just think once she gets her own book and it's fully supported and she has her place, the rest will fall in line and make sense. So that is my biggest issue.
On the other hand, while I do have a few complaints, much credit has to be given to Coates for her current rise to prominence. He definitely laid the foundation for that, even if it may include some devices that some of us don't agree with.
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[QUOTE=Sdawg;5545439]All of the new Storm news looks amazing. I will weigh in a bit on BP/Storm. I'm not a fan of the couple but it's not because I have a problem with them being together, it's more because of how it has played out and the lack of ability Marvel seems to have with taking care of both characters. The true issue in this relationship for me is that Storm and BP are both ICONIC characters and should be treated as such. Neither one deserves to only be a footnote/supporting character for the other. Black Panther has his own book and is an important hero throughout the Marvel Universe lore, so he's at least getting the respect he deserves. (This is why I think some fans are upset about Storm infiltrating his books and taking some of his shine away) Storm on the other hand has not. In the Claremont days yes she was, but since then she's been shitted on consistently (yes X Office I'm looking at you). While BP has definitely done wonders for her as a character and uplifting her recent importance, the biggest issue I have is that despite all of it's uplift, Storm would still be second fiddle to BP in his book and still doesn't have a book where the focus is on her in the X Books. That would be equivalent to Wonder Woman not having her own book but only being featured in JL or Superman as his love interest. While this could work for most characters, it just doesn't work for ICONIC and LABEL DEFINING characters like Wonder Woman and Storm. This is why Captain Marvel having a solo feels so odd when you have a woman who truly eclipses her in value fighting for attention in everyone else's book. And honestly, the more she is propped up as BP's book the more tied to his book she becomes which will either diminish her status or cloud BP's. Instead, if Storm had her own Solo, maybe even a joint book with BP, a role in the XMen, and casually featured in BP as his love interest, then I would feel like all of this goddess making, omnipotent power and MU wide importance stuff would make sense. Right now, it feels like a lot of lip service, and even though I appreciate all of the new feats, I just think once she gets her own book and it's fully supported and she has her place, the rest will fall in line and make sense. So that is my biggest issue.
On the other hand, while I do have a few complaints, much credit has to be given to Coates for her current rise to prominence. He definitely laid the foundation for that, even if it may include some devices that some of us don't agree with.[/QUOTE]
I'm glad even though you don't fancy them together you can still acknowledge what he has done for the character. my personal thoughts were they included her on the omega list because of everything Coates did.. i obviously have nothing to support that but its something I've always thought. that said,, for real I dont get how some storm fans take him to task while eating her inclusion within the xbooks like it is filet mignon.
do we even know why she is an omega outside of that data page?
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[QUOTE=butterflykyss;5545449]I'm glad even though you don't fancy them together you can still acknowledge what he has done for the character. my personal thoughts were they included her on the omega list because of everything Coates did.. i obviously have nothing to support that but its something I've always thought. that said,, for real I dont get how some storm fans take him to task while eating her inclusion within the xbooks like it is filet mignon.
do we even know why she is an omega outside of that data page?[/QUOTE]
I just want to be clear that it's not that I don't fancy them together. They could put her with whomever they want but it comes down to the care and approach taken to do so. They could be a wonderful couple and pair but their importance, status, and characters should always be considered when handling the couple. I just don't see that happening, from their inception until now with the moves made regarding their relationship.
I don't think your thought about the data pages is wrong at all whenever Storm was clearly depicted as needing an unnecessary hammer to reach goddess power just moments before smh. I HATED that run so much!
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[QUOTE=Sdawg;5545455]I just want to be clear that it's not that I don't fancy them together. They could put her with whomever they want but it comes down to the care and approach taken to do so. They could be a wonderful couple and pair but their importance, status, and characters should always be considered when handling the couple. I just don't see that happening, from their inception until now with the moves made regarding their relationship. (Example, who thought it was cool for them to come to blows in X Men vs Avengers smh).
I don't think your thought about the data pages is wrong at all whenever Storm was clearly depicted as needing an unnecessary hammer to reach goddess power just moments before smh. I HATED that run so much![/QUOTE]
I agree with your point about care being given to both characters!!! There were a lot of storm fans at the time that very much enjoyed seeing the two of them fight but I definitely was not one of them.
Ugh another personal thought is that I think Guggenheim was purposefully was writing stories to undermine what coates was doing. First with thst gambit kiss and then all the mess about her needing that stupid hammer. I'm so happy to be out of that era.
question did you think Coates gave care to both characters?
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[QUOTE=butterflykyss;5545397]marvel fans would lose their sh!t. I would totally be here for that though lol[/QUOTE]
I would love every moment.
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[QUOTE=LordAllMIghty;5545476]I would love every moment.[/QUOTE]
I would be posting pics all over the place lmfao.
why were they fighting Gaea btw?
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[QUOTE=butterflykyss;5545463]I agree with your point about care being given to both characters!!! There were a lot of storm fans at the time that very much enjoyed seeing the two of them fight but I definitely was not one of them.
Ugh another personal thought is that I think Guggenheim was purposefully was writing stories to undermine what coates was doing. First with thst gambit kiss and then all the mess about her needing that stupid hammer. I'm so happy to be out of that era.
question did you think Coates gave care to both characters?[/QUOTE]
That's a good question. First, I would like to say that my definition of care isn't necessarily exclusively about individual writers but about the systems put in place related to different characters. In Storm's and BP's case, the question is given that they are both iconic characters, are we creating spaces where their relationship can thrive while still giving respect to what they stand for and represent as iconic characters in the MCU. Shipping Storm off to be a secondary character in BP is NOT a respectful way to handle this for either character in my opinion.
As for Coates, from what I saw, I feel like Coates did his best to respect both characters and to represent them in respectful ways towards each other. That being said, I also feel like because of the box he was forced to play in you can see how even in his attempts to be respectful, that it lead to other issues. Giving Storm such prominence in BP's book definitely felt disrespectful to BP and his fans as one could argue that the much of the Adversary arc was just a story told to uplift Storm's character within the confines of a BP book. That probably felt similarly to Kitty stealing every damn XMen story for the last few years despite Storm's and other powerful XMen's presence. So, if there were careless things done, I don't necessarily put all the blame on Coates as much as the confines of having an iconic character trapped in someone else's book.
