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[QUOTE=butterflykyss;5359160]that is not true. the fact they were childhood sweethearts is one big reason she should make a cameo in the film. add to that she was queen and now a goddess of wakanda makes even a greater reason why it would make sense she debuted in the BP movie. moreover, her relationship with wakanda isn't solely dependent on tchalla. her relationship with shuri and the queen mother are also well established at this point.[/QUOTE]
he's an adult in the movie and there is no tchalla in the next one. She didn't meet shuri until she was an adult. there ya go, problem solved. and bast is the goddess of wakanda.
i guess im just tired of black people being isolated to one corner. If she goes there later cool but let's black up some more franchises and create some new ones and then she can appear there. Why rush it is my thing.
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[QUOTE=jwatson;5359171]he's an adult in the movie and there is no tchalla in the next one. She didn't meet shuri until she was an adult. there ya go, problem solved. and bast is the goddess of wakanda.[/QUOTE]
shuri was a retconned sibling that hudlin introduced. it is unlikely that ororo would have never met her prior to their marriage.
I also said storm is a goddess of wakanda not the goddess. there are several gods/goddesses (the Orishas) of wakanda and storm just so happens to be one of them.
I dont see it as black people being isolated fo one corner of the mcu. in respect to her origin story it makes more sense to appear in a BP movie versus a thor one. she grew up in Cairo Egypt, met tchalla when they both were kids, and was worshipped as a goddess in kenya which neighbors wakanda. had her origins consisted of her running around asgarf I would have no issue there but introducing her in the thor movie especially as a part of thor corps wouldn't help her evolve as hr own character in the mcu franchise.
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[QUOTE=butterflykyss;5359183]shuri was a retconned sibling that hudlin introduced. it is unlikely that ororo would have never met her prior to their marriage.
I also said storm is a goddess of wakanda not the goddess. there are several gods/goddesses (the Orishas) of wakanda and storm just so happens to be one of them.[/QUOTE]
Storm is a kenyan goddess. They still worship her there and even if the old lady didn't we have read since some people there still do, so wakanda can't just be stealing people goddessess. ^___________^
When storm herself calls herself a goddess of wakanda i will believe it, but she has seen herself as a goddess to kenyan people.
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[QUOTE=butterflykyss;5359160]that is not true. the fact they were childhood sweethearts is one big reason she should make a cameo in the film. add to that she was queen and now a goddess of wakanda makes even a greater reason why it would make sense she debuted in the BP movie. moreover, her relationship with wakanda isn't solely dependent on tchalla. her relationship with shuri and the queen mother are also well established at this point.[/QUOTE]
But she can’t become a queen unless she marries into the royal family, which requires T’Challa to do. And who was it that made her realize she was a goddess of Wakanda? That’s right T’Challa. And her relationship with Ramonda and Shuri are established in the [B]comics[/B], not the MCU. Unless Marvel decides to recast T’Challa, it doesn’t make any sense what so ever for Storm to be anywhere near Wakanda in the MCU.
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[QUOTE=BlackClaw;5359197]But she can’t become a queen unless she marries into the royal family, which requires T’Challa to do. And who was it that made her realize she was a goddess of Wakanda? That’s right T’Challa. And her relationship with Ramonda and Shuri are established in the [B]comics[/B], not the MCU. Unless Marvel decides to recast T’Challa, it doesn’t make any sense what so ever for Storm to be anywhere near Wakanda in the MCU.[/QUOTE]
Storm can become a queen because she is descendant from them, she doesn't need Tchalla. They could easily choose to have her people continue on and modern kenya be different in the MCU than comics. Sort of like in House of M. I think people forget Storm is descendant from royalty she doesn't need anyone's title.
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[QUOTE=jwatson;5359191]Storm is a kenyan goddess. They still worship her there and even if the old lady didn't we have read since some people there still do, so wakanda can't just be stealing people goddessess. ^___________^
When storm herself calls herself a goddess of wakanda i will believe it, but she has seen herself as a goddess to kenyan people.[/QUOTE]
whatever she calls herself is inconsequential to canon. this is per the marvel book (encyclopedia) pay attention to the last few sentences of the second image.
[img]https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/7/75182/7112911-5473984945-EHQ0B91XUAAzdOL[/img]
[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EiZe5nEXsAEL0Wm.jpg[/img]
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[QUOTE=jwatson;5359207]Storm can become a queen because she is descendant from them, she doesn't need Tchalla. They could easily choose to have her people continue on and modern kenya be different in the MCU than comics. Sort of like in House of M. I think people forget Storm is descendant from royalty she doesn't need anyone's title.[/QUOTE]
I meant queen of Wakanda. My mistake.
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[QUOTE=BlackClaw;5359214]I meant queen of Wakanda. My mistake.[/QUOTE]
i immediately realized it after i posted and read it again. lol
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[QUOTE=BlackClaw;5359197]But she can’t become a queen unless she marries into the royal family, which requires T’Challa to do. And who was it that made her realize she was a goddess of Wakanda? That’s right T’Challa. And her relationship with Ramonda and Shuri are established in the [B]comics[/B], not the MCU. Unless Marvel decides to recast T’Challa, it doesn’t make any sense what so ever for Storm to be anywhere near Wakanda in the MCU.[/QUOTE]
Ororo actually is a princess by birth from her mother N‘Dare. So she doesn't need tchalla to be queen as this is her birthright. Her relationship with them may be established in the comics but as mutants begin to become integrated in the mcu best believe mutants relations to the larger mcu will be established which I would imagine will mirror the comics.
all in all there is precedence that would support her appearing in this movie whether tchalla is there or not. the fact she lives in Kenya which borders Wakanda is enough of a reason.
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[QUOTE=butterflykyss;5359209]whatever she calls herself is inconsequential to canon. this is per the marvel book (encyclopedia) pay attention to the last few sentences of the second image.
[img]https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/7/75182/7112911-5473984945-EHQ0B91XUAAzdOL[/img]
[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EiZe5nEXsAEL0Wm.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
in my best wanda voice. "More. Black. Franchises" Not all black people have to appear in the same place. The MCU is not the comics. Where if we were going by, she had a long history before a tchalla retcon even Claremont himself doesn't ship and whether comics or movie, even fox was smart enough to consult the man, i can't see disney being any different, especially when he still works at marvel.
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[QUOTE=jwatson;5359224]in my best wanda voice. "More. Black. Franchises" Not all black people have to appear in the same place. The MCU is not the comics. Where if we were going by, she had a long history before a tchalla retcon even Claremont himself doesn't ship.[/QUOTE]
all people do not have to appear in BP nor have I ever said that. Monica is in Wanda vision, and black characters (falcon, war machine, valkyries) all appeared outside if a bp movie. again in the context of ororo specifically as it relates to her origins (grew up in Cairo, worshipped as a goddess in Kenya which borders wakanda, and childhood friends with tchalla) it makes sense that an introduction of her pre-xmen could involve a cameo in BP.
I know this was just shared but I have to repost! I need a marvel game thst looks like this where its open world and she has all types of powers (not just wind and lightning) as i think a lot or some of the moves here were based on thor
[video=youtube_share;bjj5xcAjUNM]https://youtu.be/bjj5xcAjUNM[/video]
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[QUOTE=butterflykyss;5359219]Ororo actually is a princess by birth from her mother N‘Dare. So she doesn't need tchalla to be queen as this is her birthright. Her relationship with them may be established in the comics but as mutants begin to become integrated in the mcu best believe mutants relations to the larger mcu will be established which I would imagine will mirror the comics.
all in all there is precedence that would support her appearing in this movie whether tchalla is there or not. the fact she lives in Kenya which borders Wakanda is enough of a reason.[/QUOTE]
When I said she can’t become a queen without T’Challa I meant queen of Wakanda. And again, if Marvel would have her appear in BP flick, it’s obviously to have a romance with T’Challa which is a major thing that both comic readers and casuals know about. But unfortunately due to Chadwick’s passing Marvel maybe retiring the character for good. So even though Kenya borders Wakanda, what sense does it make for Storm to be in the Black Panther franchise if T’Challa is not there? The only way I can see her being in the movie is a flashback scene to where she and T’Challa were kids (assuming Marvel will kill him off now that Chadwick is gone). And it’s like jwatson said, not every black character in Marvel has to be tied to Wakanda.
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[QUOTE=BlackClaw;5359246]When I said she can’t become a queen without T’Challa I meant queen of Wakanda. And again, if Marvel would have her appear in BP flick, it’s obviously to have a romance with T’Challa which is a major thing that both comic readers and casuals know about. But unfortunately due to Chadwick’s passing Marvel maybe be retiring the character for good. So even though Kenya borders Wakanda, what sense does it make for Storm to be in the Black Panther franchise if T’Challa is not there? The only way I can see her being in the movie is a flashback scene to where she and T’Challa were kids (assuming Marvel will kill him off now that Chadwick is gone). And it’s like jwatson said, not every black character in Marvel has to be tied to Wakanda.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the clarification.
I was not convinced her appearance would have been a romantic one as he was linked to Nakia. I was under the impression any inclusion of her would have been a minor cameo stating there was a white haired woman who controls the weather in one of the neighboring countries to Wakanda that required investigation of some sort.
Every black character in marvel is not tied to Wakanda but in the case of Storm she is very much tied to the nation canonically speaking.
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[QUOTE=butterflykyss;5359256]Thanks for the clarification.
I was not convinced her appearance would have been a romantic one as he was linked to Nakia. I was under the impression any inclusion of her would have been a minor cameo stating there was a white haired woman who controls the weather in one of the neighboring countries to Wakanda that required investigation of some sort.
Every black character in marvel is not tied to Wakanda but in the case of Storm she is very much tied to the nation canonically speaking.[/QUOTE]
Orisha? What's an orisha? I never heard of her. Any details? ^___-
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[QUOTE=jwatson;5359378]Orisha? What's an orisha? I never heard of her. Any details? ^___-[/QUOTE]
check out those scans I posted about the gods of wakanda ;)
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[QUOTE=butterflykyss;5359538]check out those scans I posted about the gods of wakanda ;)[/QUOTE]
I did, and even after reading it i still don't know her, them. I guess apparently they were old gods but they could be anything or anybody. ^>>>>^
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[QUOTE=jwatson;5359568]I did, and even after reading it i still don't know her, them. I guess apparently they were old gods but they could be anything or anybody. ^>>>>^[/QUOTE]
[img]https://media1.tenor.com/images/b1caa0c834173ddf79eae130c6cdcb93/tenor.gif[/img]
lol ok I gotcha
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[QUOTE=jwatson;5359568]I did, and even after reading it i still don't know her, them. I guess apparently they were old gods but they could be anything or anybody. ^>>>>^[/QUOTE]
They are actual African Gods and Goddesses of the Yoruba people...of Nigeria and the tribes of other West African Countries
I don't know what Coates was doing with those Orisha Wakandan "Gods" all the way across East Africa in Kenya...which, by the way, venerate their own set of Gods and Goddesses.
The Wakanda Goddess Bast is not Orisha.
Just as Coates' historical revision of the Wakandan Gods was trash...that "Orisha" article is trash. You are correct...According to Coates they are/can be anybody.
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God of Wakanda: Orishas
Known Members: Toth, Kokou, Mujaji, Ptah, Nyami, and [B]BAST[/B]
[img]https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/7/75182/7112911-5473984945-EHQ0B91XUAAzdOL[/img]
616 Canon trumps personal biases, real-world definitions and/or head-canon in the 616 universe.
source: The Marvel Book
[img]https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91xWl7Ch1kL.jpg[/img]
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I don't like how Coates appropriated the Yoruba orishas for Wakanda either. He could have been creative and made something unique for them, or simply expanded on the Nilotic/Kemetic themes already associated with Bast. Wakanda being a pan-African grab bag instead of it's own civilization is lazy.
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[QUOTE=yogaflame;5359857]I don't like how Coates appropriated the Yoruba orishas for Wakanda either. He could have been creative and made something unique for them, or simply expanded on the Nilotic/Kemetic themes already associated with Bast. Wakanda being a pan-African grab bag instead of it's own civilization is lazy.[/QUOTE]
I actually didn't like how it was explained that men became gods. However, personal preferences aside canon is canon. He was the first writer since BP debuted who attempted to flesh out the Wakandan pantheon.
so there are whispers Anna diop was cast as Storm and was on the set of the thor film. I'm haven't been able to confirm if this information is true or not but fans I've seen who have heard this news seem to be happy about it.
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[QUOTE=butterflykyss;5359887]so there are whispers Anna diop was cast as Storm and was on the set of the thor film. I'm haven't been able to confirm if this information is true or not but fans I've seen who have heard this news seem to be happy about it.[/QUOTE]
If true then good on her. Especially after how she was treated when fans found out that she was cast as Starfire.
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[QUOTE=BlackClaw;5359909]If true then good on her. Especially after how she was treated when fans found out that she was cast as Starfire.[/QUOTE]
I haven't seen a source yet so take that with a grain of salt. that said it is unfortunate that she experienced that and apparently still is experiencing it from the tweets I just saw today.
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Orisha Gods: Oya, Obatala, Eshu, Shango, Ogun..to name a few.
If he was as Black-centric as he purports to be...he would have known that appropriating actual Orishas Gods to call them by names that are absolutely not Orisha is just wrong and a somewhat disrespectful. That was a very poor artistic choice and wholly unnecessary as Bast the leading Goddess of Wakanda is closer associated with the Egyptian Pantheon
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everyone knows the history but what does that have to do with 616 canon?
[img]https://media1.tenor.com/images/98ed3f748b8af9996424411cca73b045/tenor.gif[/img]
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What if Coates said Yahweh, Mohammed or Jesus were actually Wakandan gods who were regular humans elevated to godhood by Wakandans and that they've actually abandoned their worshipers to go to a slave empire on another galaxy? Many people don't even know about Yoruba orishas and this comic is their first exposure to them. It's lazy at best, blasphemous at worst.
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[QUOTE=yogaflame;5360078]What if Coates said Yahweh, Mohammed or Jesus were actually Wakandan gods who were regular humans elevated to godhood by Wakandans and that they've actually abandoned their worshipers to go to a slave empire on another galaxy? Many people don't even know about Yoruba orishas and this comic is their first exposure to them. It's lazy at best, blasphemous at worst.[/QUOTE]
well your example is akin to what marvel has done to asgardian religion which is a religion that is also still practiced today. Marvel's interpretation of asgard and its religion does align to the real-world aspects of it. attempting to expect these comics to align in such a way is an exercise in futility.
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Asgard is loosely appropriated as well, true, but they still follow the established mythology in the broad strokes, and overall, for decades and decades, there's a certain level of reverence for them, and they have a strong standing in the canon. Coates dumped Yoruba mythology on the table, took a few words, and threw the rest in the trash.
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[QUOTE=yogaflame;5360104]Asgard is loosely appropriated as well, true, but they still follow the established mythology in the broad strokes, and overall, for decades and decades, there's a certain level of reverence for them, and they have a strong standing in the canon. Coates dumped Yoruba mythology on the table, took a few words, and threw the rest in the trash.[/QUOTE]
How do you know that he is referring to the Yoruba mythology though? That has west African origins whereas wakanda is a mythology based in east africa. perhaps he used the same name for the wakandan gods but there is no indication that he meant that to be the Yoruba version.
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[QUOTE=butterflykyss;5360118]How do you know that he is referring to the Yoruba mythology though? That has west African origins whereas wakanda is a mythology based in east africa. perhaps he used the same name for the wakandan gods but there is no indication that he meant that to be the Yoruba version.[/QUOTE]
"Orisha" is a Yoruba word/term/concept/name of their religion. He couldn't have gotten it from anywhere else.
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[QUOTE=yogaflame;5360078]What if Coates said Yahweh, Mohammed or Jesus were actually Wakandan gods who were regular humans elevated to godhood by Wakandans and that they've actually abandoned their worshipers to go to a slave empire on another galaxy? Many people don't even know about Yoruba orishas and this comic is their first exposure to them. It's lazy at best, blasphemous at worst.[/QUOTE]
Exactatiously.
Thank the Gods his exit is at hand and we and Wakanda will be shod of his iniquities.
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[QUOTE=yogaflame;5360123]"Orisha" is a Yoruba word/term/concept/name of their religion. He couldn't have gotten it from anywhere else.[/QUOTE]
but that is my point. Bast is an Egyptian god but based on the logic I've seen presented it wouldnt make sense for this god to be used by Wakandans. It appears even in the context of Bast and beyond this in the context of the Orishas, elements of wakandan lore have influences from real world African culture but isn't meant to reflect necessarily how it its depicted in the real world. again to expect this or to do so would be an exercise in futility.
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[QUOTE=butterflykyss;5360137]but that is my point. Bast is an Egyptian god but based on the logic I've seen presented it wouldnt make sense for this god to be used by Wakandans. It appears even in the context of Bast and beyond this in the context of the Orishas, elements of wakandan lore has influences from African culture seen in the real world but it isn't meant to reflect necessarily how it its depicted in the real world. again to expect this or to do so would be an exercise in futility.[/QUOTE]
Wakanda is usually depicted as being on or near Nam Lolwe/Lake Victoria, the source of the Nile, and where the ancient Egyptians say they came from(the Mountain of the Moon), so Bast's association, established by Priest in the latest 90's/2000 [and later Hickman], before that it was simply the 'Panther god', makes reasonable sense, historically and geographically. Yoruban Orisha is from three thousand of miles away, and is a far younger culture. Even if we stretch back to their earliest origins, we're talking barely 3000 years old(it's not really until 1100 CE that we have solid evidence of them linguistically and archeologically). Bast is at least 5,000 years old(Old Kingdom Kmt). Wakanda is at least 10,000 [if not 1 million] years old. Why would the far older culture use words from the far younger culture on the other side of the continent? It's like making Chinese characters worship Japanese kami. BP writers should craft a unique mythos for Wakanda, or double down on the Kmtic angle, not pull concepts from the Yoruba.
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[QUOTE=yogaflame;5360213]Wakanda is usually depicted as being on or near Nam Lolwe/Lake Victoria, the source of the Nile, and where the ancient Egyptians say they came from(the Mountain of the Moon), so Bast's association, established by Priest in the latest 90's/2000 [and later Hickman], before that it was simply the 'Panther god', makes reasonable sense, historically and geographically. Yoruban Orisha is from thousands of miles away, and is a far younger culture. Even if we stretch back to their earliest origins, we're talking barely 3000 years old(it's not really until 1100 CE that we have solid evidence of them linguistically and archeologically). Bast is at least 5,000 years old(Old Kingdom Kmt). Wakanda is at least 10,000 [if not 1 million] years old. Why would the far older culture use words from the far younger culture on the other side of the continent? It's like making Chinese characters worship Japanese kami. BP writers should craft a unique mythos for Wakanda, or double down on the Kmtic angle, not pull concepts from the Yoruba.[/QUOTE]
The term orisha literally translates to god or deities. As such, one cannot conclude because he used Orisha he intended them to be yoruba in origin by default.
also, your historical account may be accurate but I hardly believe such detail was considered when considering what God Wakandan should worship. I think it would make more sense to go the Kemetic route but real world conditions don't hsve to equate to those told within comics.
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[QUOTE=yogaflame;5360213]Wakanda is usually depicted as being on or near Nam Lolwe/Lake Victoria, the source of the Nile, and where the ancient Egyptians say they came from(the Mountain of the Moon), so Bast's association, established by Priest in the latest 90's/2000 [and later Hickman], before that it was simply the 'Panther god', makes reasonable sense, historically and geographically. Yoruban Orisha is from thousands of miles away, and is a far younger culture. Even if we stretch back to their earliest origins, we're talking barely 3000 years old(it's not really until 1100 CE that we have solid evidence of them linguistically and archeologically). Bast is at least 5,000 years old(Old Kingdom Kmt). Wakanda is at least 10,000 [if not 1 million] years old. [B]Why would the far older culture use words from the far younger culture on the other side of the continent?[/B] It's like making Chinese characters worship Japanese kami. BP writers should craft a unique mythos for Wakanda, or double down on the Kmtic angle, not pull concepts from the Yoruba.[/QUOTE]
If you haven't caught on to the fact that Wakanda is basically mismatch of different African cultures idk what to tell you
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[QUOTE=yogaflame;5359857]I don't like how Coates appropriated the Yoruba orishas for Wakanda either. He could have been creative and made something unique for them, or simply expanded on the Nilotic/Kemetic themes already associated with Bast. [B]Wakanda being a pan-African grab bag instead of it's own civilization is lazy[/B].[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Outburstz;5360232]If[I] you haven't caught on [/I]to the fact that Wakanda is basically mismatch of different African cultures idk what to tell you[/QUOTE]
I noticed; it's lazy.
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[QUOTE=yogaflame;5360249]I noticed; it's lazy.[/QUOTE]
technically speaking the gods would be unique based upon Coates description and to be fair we still dont really know much about them beyond their names.
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So waking up from my day drinking nap what i have gathered is coates literally took a word that means god, slapped it in his book, and never offered any detail. thats the equivilant of me knowing to draw strom beautiful because her name means beauty. lol. i just LOVE all the wealth of info people here have, it makes me go on countless google searches and i'm better for it. Too bad coates was being paid to just add vague words and descriptions like he was being deep. But then something lately has been standing out like his titles "Nation under our feet." He doesn't seem to like black excellence. Like why tchalla got to be stepping on his nation.
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I will say I would have preferred him digging more into the aspects of the orishas than the space arc. I also was hoping we would get a storm solo where it would explore her divinity. neither appears to be happening.
