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[QUOTE=yogaflame;5373019]BP King in Black was great. Gorgeous art, colors, and classical T'Challa. I don't even care that he didn't give 2 cents about Ororo, he just handled his business. I hope this trend continues(them going their own paths). Looks like KIB #4 will feature the X-Men.[/QUOTE]
.. he did care? The whole point of that is that he can't do anytihng about it now and he has to worry about his country.
Even shuri cared.
But t'challa had to bury his feelings to get his job done.
How could you read it any other way?
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;5373033].. he did care? The whole point of that is that he can't do anytihng about it now and he has to worry about his country.
Even shuri cared.
But t'challa had to bury his feelings to get his job done.
How could you read it any other way?[/QUOTE]
I'm glad the gulf is widening. He did what he had to do. He will always be Wakanda's servant first and foremost. It's why their relationship never had a chance.
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[QUOTE=lemonpeace;5372325]this is something that I have always been hesitant to ask, why so much animosity regarding Storm and Black Panther's relationship. I always thought it was a cool little idea, powerful black icons come together and become the black power couple of comics; made sense enough. but I've always notice they are like a faction or section of fans who just vehemently hate the idea to a kinda weird degree I notice it particularly among the BP fans but I think that may have something to do with the BP fans here not liking Coates work. is/was there some sort of problematic element about it (maybe something I'm missing as someone who isn't the deepest Storm or T'Challa expert) or is it just a lowkey shipping "she's/he's not the one [b]i[/b] would've had him/her with" type thing? I would've asked in the BP thread but the BP thread gets kinda dramatic over Storm or Coates in my experience.[/QUOTE]
Hello beloved and welcome to the Storm forum. I would just like to start off by saying there are many readers who do in fact love this two as a couple for the reasons you have mentioned. Its hard to see it on CBR at times but I frequent many social media forums every fans love the two together.
Your reasons as to why some don't like the pairing definitely has to do with those you mentioned not liking Coates work. The level of reaching that these critics go to many times is far-fetched and hypocritical in many ways. When you actually start digging deeper into their criticism it becomes apparent they have very little understand of 616 canon, which makes it glaringly clear that the biases do result solely of disliking his work.
That said, a lot of the hate you see on both sides of the shipping seems to how the pair was treated when they were married by hudlin. Storm fans resented the fact she was stripped away from the xmen. They blame the marriage on her demise in the xbooks. This sentiment to me is ridiculous because if the xwriters wanted to write and include her in xbooks they would have. The reality here is they simply didn't want to write her and wanted to focus on their Alpha male cyclops. Morever, these fans felt storm voice was mininimized which I can understand this argument in comparison to Claremont; however, hudlin did more to elevate her status in the MU by making her queen, he gave her a family beyond the xmen, and her made her a potential omega level mutant. This development simply WAS NOT happening with the x-men during this time and her stature within the xbooks was well on the decline prior to hudlin.
BP fans alternatively did not like the pairing because they felt the xoffices shaded tchalla. I actually think this was a fair assessment. At the time I didn't see this but hindsight is 20/20. The xmen have been known for not being diverse and showcasing black men in a positive light. Where hudlin was trying to showcase two black characters lovingly, the xwriters took painstakingly obvious measures to show the opposite. Ororo complained of boring sex and shopping sprees and even showed her casually flirting with cyclops. This unfortunately still exists to this day as shown most recently by Vita's writing in Marauders.
Add to the aforementioned the way the marriage ended. it showed two black heterosexual characters engaging in domestic violence, and then had storm thereafter behaving less than a goddess-like manner when she became wolverines sex toy. What coates i believe effectively did was showcase the two both in a loving way where both characters exhibited their strengths. The problem however here, which I think some BP fans complaints become invalid, is that they want tchalla to be the big bad all the time even when it doesn't make sense to do. No matter what they may tell you BP doesn't have the tools to defeat a universal chaos god. I guess you could argue that storm shouldn't be their but that ship sailed when hudkin decided to wed the two. Storm is forever tied to Wakanda and thst is just the reality. After Coates' years of working to repair the missteps of the past the xoffices again would do what they are known best to do which was showcase black heterosexual couples in toxic ways as evident by marauders 13.
Ultimately, just keep in mind there are some who don't like the pairing for a wide range of reasons but they don't necessarily stem from Coates primarily.
I didn't really care for BP: KiB. There were some nice parts but considering the writer has made known publicly his thoughts on topics particularly the xmen it made some of writing hard to read.
1. The interactions between the characters seemed very rigid and almost impersonal at times. It would make sense to see lower ranking members of the nation so reverent as they were towards tchalla but the way oyoye and shuri were seemed OOC.
2. Thorne has made pretty clear he doesn't like the xmem, which is fine, but why then do you feel the need to incorporate elements of its lore to make the point of how formidable Wakanda is. So Wakanda has an entity meant to defeat the Phoenix yet it didn't appear during AvX nor did it appear in Aaron's current Phoenix story? Yea no that doesn't ring true at all especially considering the writer's opinion on the xmen
3. The issue in and of itself seemed to wrap up too nicely in a way that doesn't coincide with any of the other tie-ins. The Knull has engulfed the entire earth, has killed sentry conquered celestial yet wakanda could easily clear the atmosphere without the knull god sensing this and not immediately going to investigate this threat to his assault on earth?
4. Lastly, storm's inclusion made absolutely no sense. it was clear she was there only to shade her. Al Ewing I thought did a beautiful job incorporating Coates space run in a respectful way that made sense to the story and without the obvious need to disrupt what another writer had established. (i guess now diatractora can't say his run is not canon) I believe both this bp writer and specifically vita should take note.
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[QUOTE=MindofShadow;5372971]You thought you could hide from us in here!!!!????
Lol.
Short Answer: Big chunk of Storm fan's think Storm was taking a back seat to Black Panther in the union. Big chunk of BP fans think BP was taking a back seat to Storm in the union. Add in a dose of X-men editorial fuckery, Marvel head honchos not knowing what to do with the MCU guiding everything, and it ended up a big ol mess where neither fan base was happy with it in general. Everyone gets over it, until some X-writer wants to revisit it just to stir drama. Rinse and repeat the last sentence.
TBH, Chadwick dying and T'challa being written out of the MCU probably 100% ends the relationship completely so in the end it won't matter much in a handful of years lol.[/QUOTE]
won't matter because of another universe? what logic is this?
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[QUOTE=Rang10;5373136]won't matter because of another universe? what logic is this?[/QUOTE]
Never underestimate the power that synergy has. I won’t be surprised if they find a way to shelve T’Challa in the comics since Feige is pretty adamant on not recasting him in the MCU.
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And I just wanted to also add that those stating that the two were put together simply because they were black support my earlier point that some readers are not well versed on 616 canon.
Prior to the their marriage both the xbooks and the bp books made very clear the two had a deep affinity for one another:
[img]https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/hostedimages/1503704315i/23687846._SY540_.jpg[/img]
[img]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/VqUnkVRgFYW15oRsdqkhVUfET0L_e9k0pPhHB6VPOI9zEzbciOQpr7VyCqpuk7LH1YysuxtaoAue=s1600[/img]
[img]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/VnzAeoWeTvEOjacttGVEkS5Gr_eiScQeH7XYetdSlh5IJLrMzvcthdvXji0jFlTtOJzjXqHV3KBW=s1600[/img]
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[QUOTE=BlackClaw;5373162]Never underestimate the power that synergy has. I won’t be surprised if they find a way to shelve T’Challa in the comics since Feige is pretty adamant on not recasting him in the MCU.[/QUOTE]
Synergy is when writers/editors has no fresh ideas. Has been a long time since Hawkeye an black widow are on avengers main team.
I'm not gainst some synergy here and there, the problem is when it is used all the time to guide characters/stories.
ororo/clack panther not happening on MCU takes zero away from comics
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[QUOTE=Rang10;5373193]Synergy is when writers/editors has no fresh ideas. Has been a long time since Hawkeye an black widow are on avengers main team.
I'm not gainst some synergy here and there, the problem is when it is used all the time to guide characters/stories.
ororo/clack panther not happening on MCU takes zero away from comics[/QUOTE]
But movies can influence comics in a big way. You notice how Okoye was a teenager during Priests run but now she’s a grown woman? That’s thanks to the movie. You notice how Shuri has a design that looks a lot like Letitia Wright? Also thanks to the movie. I get what you’re saying but don’t entirely count out the MCU having an effect on Ororo’s relationship with T’Challa in the comics.
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[QUOTE=BlackClaw;5373214]But movies can influence comics in a big way. You notice how Okoye was a teenager during Priests run but now she’s a grown woman? That’s thanks to the movie. You notice how Shuri has a design that looks a lot like Letitia Wright? Also thanks to the movie. I get what you’re saying but don’t entirely count out the MCU having an effect on Ororo’s relationship with T’Challa in the comics.[/QUOTE]
Like I said both influence each other, but shouldn't be reason things happen. It is far ore likely that X-office wants full control of Ororo again and many black panthers fans/writers are tired of being humiliated on x-men books than it is because of MCU.
Coates getting them back together was after black panther was introduced on MCU
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hmmm so from what I'm gathering, in broad strokes, the breakdown mainly boils down to the BP/Marvel creative branch and the X-Men creative branch not being on the same page and enabling petty digs at the other camp. which I can see happening, especially from what I hear about the lengths Marvel went to undercut the X-Men at certain points in their history. there appears to have been some execution issues (that I clearly need to look into for a better idea) but it seems like outside of personal grievances the concept itself is viable if Marvel just sat down and worked it out. I think Storm's connection to Wakanda and their pantheon was a cool marriage of ideas, shame it ended up coming with so many hang-ups. given how much it appears to seesaw it might be for the best to leave well enough alone but, as someone who came up entirely removed from the drama of it, i would kinda like it if they figured it out one day. then again, I'm also someone rooting for John Stewart and Yrra Cyril to reconcile, so maybe I'm not the best judge in these things. anyway thanks for the responses tho.
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I was always fine with T'Challa and Ororo losing their virginity at 12. It seems only americans had issue with it. Almost everyone I know with family outside the usa seem to be fine with it. I think it was just culture shock for them.when these thing are quite normal elsewhere in the world.
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Also Clearmont laid most of the groundwork for Tchalla and Ororo. From their meeting, losing virginity, separate and ect.
I really feel alot of fans had no idea of this. So when hudlin came along it's seem force.
Also Storm Fans ban together in hate due to them thinking she was removed from the Xbooks to prop him up , when that was not the case. She just wasn't being used at all in the xbooks.
And alot of BP fan hate the pairing cause it was a nightmare dealing with toxic Storm fan.
Now if we can all get past the hate and welcome some future Storm and Tchalla babies , Goddess be praise.
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[QUOTE=butterflykyss;5373164]And I just wanted to also add that those stating that the two were put together simply because they were black support my earlier point that some readers are not well versed on 616 canon.
Prior to the their marriage both the xbooks and the bp books made very clear the two had a deep affinity for one another:
[img]https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/hostedimages/1503704315i/23687846._SY540_.jpg[/img]
[img]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/VqUnkVRgFYW15oRsdqkhVUfET0L_e9k0pPhHB6VPOI9zEzbciOQpr7VyCqpuk7LH1YysuxtaoAue=s1600[/img]
[img]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/VnzAeoWeTvEOjacttGVEkS5Gr_eiScQeH7XYetdSlh5IJLrMzvcthdvXji0jFlTtOJzjXqHV3KBW=s1600[/img][/QUOTE]
What comic issues is the 2nd and third images?
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I never had a problem with the idea of them together but how it happened as said really did leave a bad taste in my mouth but i actually gave it a chance and bought some books and the story hudlin wrote completely turned me off. I did not grow up in a house with a submissive mother that did everything my father said. I'm sure some people did. My father worked and my mother paid all the bills and did most of the heavy lifting it wasn't until she came up to a wall that my father stepped in but they always supported each other. I never saw my father try to make my mother less than what she was so from my perspective that is what felt like hudlin was doing. He did not imo see black women the way i personally do as Strong and he didn't see black men as i saw them, a true black man knows he is only as strong as his woman because they get stronger together.
But there was nothing else. They offered no Storm material, nothing, she literally went from lead to supporting character and they completely pulled her out the x-books and those of us who didn't even read BP at the time had no where else we could even go to read storm except a place where she was written subordinate.
As for claremont, he himself said they were enver meant to be together. He himself said they were too powerful in personality and neither would relent and in a lot of ways he was right expect hudlin had ororo continuously relenting.
Then came coates, i personally was enjoying Extraodinary Xmen and i vs x and there was peace among fans again and coates came along and i stanned him hard in the beginning, i really did, i didn't listen to some of the gripes about his writing like slavery and stuff but after years of reading tchalla being nothing but good to Ororo there was just no going back for me when he had her basically dress him down to Nakia and act like he was some basic dude that didn't change. I honestly felt in the relationship BP was the true VIP this time around but that is all Ororo wrote. I don't want to read about a man so desperately in love with a woman, a king fighting slavery to get back to her, for him to be treated like some basic manslut. But that's just me personally, if i'm honest i don't do the groupthink if i like it i like it. To me it never made sense though how people tried to make it personal on both sides when as far as i'm concerned it never was for me it was purely the material and the fact that one could only be up at a time it seems.
There has never been middle ground. And honestly for me i didn't think there was any going back after they actually wrote Cap telling him to sit down and him watching his wife leave. To me that was worse than the annulment, worse than the fist fight but i still gave it another chance. I'm just done. It's not like i have a personal vendetta against them i just never got anything out of it as a purchaser of material but disappointment, confusion, and a distaste for the phrase "black love."
The only way i will accept it at this point is a splinter team from both franchises that work to build up both characers and have Storm reach out to her homeland in kenya as well. I need more than just a queen when im use to reading a warrior goddess. But i hope they never go there again just so i don't have to deal wiith it to be honest.
Especially since as is i'm only holding on to comics by a thread. I'm just so over having to feel like i have to fight to buy something to be represented in. And the black face art they do (white people painted black to look black or asian people colored orange to look asian) makes me nausea to look at lately. Why in a visual medium can't artist do facial features (but now im just tangenting so i shall end it here.)
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[QUOTE=BlkGldBlu;5373238]Also Clearmont laid most of the groundwork for Tchalla and Ororo. From their meeting, losing virginity, separate and ect.
[/QUOTE]
Claremont didn't have them hook up as kids. That detail was added in the 2006 series by Eric Jerome Dickey which was a mess. In Claremont's story she saved him from slavers and they hung out for a few days until their respective obligations took them in opposite directions. The end.
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[QUOTE=yogaflame;5373550]Claremont didn't have them hook up as kids. That detail was added in the 2006 series by Eric Jerome Dickey which was a mess. In Claremont's story she saved him from slavers and they hung out for a few days until their respective obligations took them in opposite directions. The end.[/QUOTE]
In hindsight, Claremont and Priest easily had the best take on the T’Challa-Ororo dynamic. They’re old friends who bonded in their youth during times of great self-discovery and have lingering attraction to one another in their adult years. While in an ideal world where their obligations were not the priority they’d happily explore a relationship, the pressures of their stations make a long term romance impossible so they’re only left with what could’ve been.
That doesn’t stop them from working together every now and then or even some flirting, but they’re both mature enough to realize they need to see other people and be leaders for their respective peoples. Anything more than that is just asking for editorial stupidity and fandom wars about who gets top billing. Two characters from two separate franchises should not mix for any extended period of time, most writers lack the ability to preserve any semblance of balance and Marvel’s penchant for toxic romances makes it inevitable someone will be thrown under the bus.
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[QUOTE=yogaflame;5373550]Claremont didn't have them hook up as kids. That detail was added in the 2006 series by Eric Jerome Dickey which was a mess. In Claremont's story she saved him from slavers and they hung out for a few days until their respective obligations took them in opposite directions. The end.[/QUOTE]
Just reread team up and priest. Chris C treatment of both of them seems to eluded to them being each other first.
And ross also did the same. But you right it was officially stated until Dickey.
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[QUOTE=chief12d;5373571]In hindsight, Claremont and Priest easily had the best take on the T’Challa-Ororo dynamic. They’re old friends who bonded in their youth during times of great self-discovery and have lingering attraction to one another in their adult years. While in an ideal world where their obligations were not the priority they’d happily explore a relationship, the pressures of their stations make a long term romance impossible so they’re only left with what could’ve been.
That doesn’t stop them from working together every now and then or even some flirting, but they’re both mature enough to realize they need to see other people and be leaders for their respective peoples. Anything more than that is just asking for editorial stupidity and fandom wars about who gets top billing. Two characters from two separate franchises should not mix for any extended period of time, most writers lack the ability to preserve any semblance of balance and Marvel’s penchant for toxic romances makes it inevitable someone will be thrown under the bus.[/QUOTE]
My thoughts exactly.
Claremont made his view crystal clear in that first story:
[IMG]https://static1.cbrimages.com/wp-content/uploads/goodcomics/2012/06/ororotchalla5.jpg[/IMG]
Friendzone. FOREVER.
[IMG]https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia1.tenor.com%2Fimages%2Fef9448c3c2deb4951dad18df841948a4%2Ftenor.gif%3Fitemid%3D13736720&f=1&nofb=1[/IMG]
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[QUOTE=BlkGldBlu;5373599]Just reread team up and priest. Chris C treatment of both of them seems to eluded to them being each other first.
And ross also did the same. But you right it was officially stated until Dickey.[/QUOTE]
You can imagine anything you want, but it's explicit in Priest's version they didn't even kiss as children.
[IMG]https://abload.de/img/1ossx7.jpg[/IMG]
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[QUOTE=lemonpeace;5372325]this is something that I have always been hesitant to ask, why so much animosity regarding Storm and Black Panther's relationship. I always thought it was a cool little idea, powerful black icons come together and become the black power couple of comics; made sense enough. but I've always notice they are like a faction or section of fans who just vehemently hate the idea to a kinda weird degree I notice it particularly among the BP fans but I think that may have something to do with the BP fans here not liking Coates work. is/was there some sort of problematic element about it (maybe something I'm missing as someone who isn't the deepest Storm or T'Challa expert) or is it just a lowkey shipping "she's/he's not the one [b]i[/b] would've had him/her with" type thing? I would've asked in the BP thread but the BP thread gets kinda dramatic over Storm or Coates in my experience.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="#000080"]Lol, okay let's not characterize all BP fandom. Every appreciation thread you go in will have drama so don't single out BP fans.
First of all, a lot of BP fans fought for the marriage even as other people were against it. Once the marriage was over and especially the horrible way that some writers under the X-umbrella handled it, BP fans said frak it and walked away. Some X-writers continued to play with the relationship in a negative way which BP fans didn't like. The Coates comes along with his take which BP fans knew would lead to disaster. But some fans enjoyed what Coates was doing and it became a thing again.
I'll be the first to say that I had animosity towards Storm. I was pro-BP and anti-Storm, blamed her for everything. I was wrong and I admit it.
Now I still don't want them back together because the same dumb isht the X-offices were doing before will happen again and we've seen evidence of it. Marvel doesn't want the relationship to work and it's not worth fighting about it anymore. Both characters have good things going for them(Storm is getting some much needed focus and Coates is getting the hell of BP) so we should be celebrating for both characters and hope the continue to get some shine.
Moveon.org[/COLOR]
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[QUOTE=yogaflame;5373657]You can imagine anything you want, but it's explicit in Priest's version they didn't even kiss as children.
[IMG]https://abload.de/img/1ossx7.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
I guess you right, but I'm glad that it's canon that their each other first . Young love to true love.
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[QUOTE=BlkGldBlu;5373231]I was always fine with T'Challa and Ororo losing their virginity at 12. It seems only americans had issue with it. Almost everyone I know with family outside the usa seem to be fine with it. I think it was just culture shock for them.when these thing are quite normal elsewhere in the world.[/QUOTE]
I am European, and honestly, I was not shocked by that. You see at my country we have black minority and I do read about African traditions and stories, what happened between T'Challa and Ororo, when Ororo was at twelve is not something surprising. Those who actually read about African traditions, and some of their stories followed by a few other tribes that represent closely Africans, you will find out that at age 8 to 10 the boy chooses his girl (I will add here important note. Ororo asked T'Challa if he had someone special and he told her that he didn't find the right girl yet) and after that, the boy starts to flirt, the girl has the freedom to accept his flirts or decline his advances. If the girl responds positively at age of 12 to 15 the girl loses her virginity to the boy. When it comes to African traditions, what happened between T'Challa and Ororo is not a shock, it is natural. Yes, it happened a bit too fast. I agree with that, but here is the moment when I will input European term, first-sight love. Something which Americans fail to understand most of the time because they see love and marriage differently.
In my personal opinion, everything was natural between Ororo and T'Challa and if Americans have problems with that, then they should probably pull their heads out of the ground and actually sit and read more about African history and traditions. It is rich.
[QUOTE=jwatson;5373264]I never had a problem with the idea of them together but how it happened as said really did leave a bad taste in my mouth but i actually gave it a chance and bought some books and the story hudlin wrote completely turned me off. I did not grow up in a house with a submissive mother that did everything my father said. I'm sure some people did. My father worked and my mother paid all the bills and did most of the heavy lifting it wasn't until she came up to a wall that my father stepped in but they always supported each other. I never saw my father try to make my mother less than what she was so from my perspective that is what felt like hudlin was doing. He did not imo see black women the way i personally do as Strong and he didn't see black men as i saw them, a true black man knows he is only as strong as his woman because they get stronger together.
But there was nothing else. They offered no Storm material, nothing, she literally went from lead to supporting character and they completely pulled her out the x-books and those of us who didn't even read BP at the time had no where else we could even go to read storm except a place where she was written subordinate.
As for claremont, he himself said they were enver meant to be together. He himself said they were too powerful in personality and neither would relent and in a lot of ways he was right expect hudlin had ororo continuously relenting.
Then came coates, i personally was enjoying Extraodinary Xmen and i vs x and there was peace among fans again and coates came along and i stanned him hard in the beginning, i really did, i didn't listen to some of the gripes about his writing like slavery and stuff but after years of reading tchalla being nothing but good to Ororo there was just no going back for me when he had her basically dress him down to Nakia and act like he was some basic dude that didn't change. I honestly felt in the relationship BP was the true VIP this time around but that is all Ororo wrote. I don't want to read about a man so desperately in love with a woman, a king fighting slavery to get back to her, for him to be treated like some basic manslut. But that's just me personally, if i'm honest i don't do the groupthink if i like it i like it. To me it never made sense though how people tried to make it personal on both sides when as far as i'm concerned it never was for me it was purely the material and the fact that one could only be up at a time it seems.
There has never been middle ground. And honestly for me i didn't think there was any going back after they actually wrote Cap telling him to sit down and him watching his wife leave. To me that was worse than the annulment, worse than the fist fight but i still gave it another chance. I'm just done. It's not like i have a personal vendetta against them i just never got anything out of it as a purchaser of material but disappointment, confusion, and a distaste for the phrase "black love."
The only way i will accept it at this point is a splinter team from both franchises that work to build up both characers and have Storm reach out to her homeland in kenya as well. I need more than just a queen when im use to reading a warrior goddess. But i hope they never go there again just so i don't have to deal wiith it to be honest.
Especially since as is i'm only holding on to comics by a thread. I'm just so over having to feel like i have to fight to buy something to be represented in. And the black face art they do (white people painted black to look black or asian people colored orange to look asian) makes me nausea to look at lately. Why in a visual medium can't artist do facial features (but now im just tangenting so i shall end it here.)[/QUOTE]
Once more, jwatson, I am sorry to do this to you, but I re-read the Black Panther Intergalactic storyline again, like yesterday so I can catch up with the new upcoming issues that will mark the end of it, and I must be honest with you. I really, really, honestly and very deeply think that you've misunderstood Storm's words. You need to concentrate on the entire event that has happened, Storm showed maturity, Black Panther showed maturity, I really, really don't see anything wrong at all with what happened, having in mind that Storm never told Nakia, you can have my man. I believe you intercepted her words wrongly.
She asked her to defend him and protect him, just like the Dora Mijare (Sorry if I pronounced that wrong) would do, but Storm [B]DOES NOT[/B] tell her, you can have my husband, she tells her that she hopes she will keep protecting him and be his faithful soldier, Guardian, even but nothing among the lines of what you assumed Storm told.
Storm clearly states a few bubbles before that she is trying to control her jealousy side, because if Storm didn't control herself, Nakia would have been burned alive and broken to million frozen pieces. Ororo loves T'Challa a lot, and T'Challa proves that as well with KIB: BP issue that came out this week. I am actually quite happy with how T'Challa handled the situation, he admitted his strong, powerful feelings for her but he is fully aware that there is nothing that he can do for her right at that moment and his country was at the danger he needed to prioritize and for that, I do respect T'Challa once more. I just hope that they don't ruin that moment with the next few issues.
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[QUOTE=Rang10;5373237]What comic issues is the 2nd and third images?[/QUOTE]
Uncanny X-men 387
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[QUOTE=The92Ghost;5373843]I am European, and honestly, I was not shocked by that. You see at my country we have black minority and I do read about African traditions and stories, what happened between T'Challa and Ororo, when Ororo was at twelve is not something surprising. Those who actually read about African traditions, and some of their stories followed by a few other tribes that represent closely Africans, you will find out that at age 8 to 10 the boy chooses his girl (I will add here important note. Ororo asked T'Challa if he had someone special and he told her that he didn't find the right girl yet) and after that, the boy starts to flirt, the girl has the freedom to accept his flirts or decline his advances. If the girl responds positively at age of 12 to 15 the girl loses her virginity to the boy. When it comes to African traditions, what happened between T'Challa and Ororo is not a shock, it is natural. Yes, it happened a bit too fast. I agree with that, but here is the moment when I will input European term, first-sight love. Something which Americans fail to understand most of the time because they see love and marriage differently.
In my personal opinion, everything was natural between Ororo and T'Challa and if Americans have problems with that, then they should probably pull their heads out of the ground and actually sit and read more about African history and traditions. It is rich.
Once more, jwatson, I am sorry to do this to you, but I re-read the Black Panther Intergalactic storyline again, like yesterday so I can catch up with the new upcoming issues that will mark the end of it, and I must be honest with you. I really, really, honestly and very deeply think that you've misunderstood Storm's words. You need to concentrate on the entire event that has happened, Storm showed maturity, Black Panther showed maturity, I really, really don't see anything wrong at all with what happened, having in mind that Storm never told Nakia, you can have my man. I believe you intercepted her words wrongly.
She asked her to defend him and protect him, just like the Dora Mijare (Sorry if I pronounced that wrong) would do, but Storm [B]DOES NOT[/B] tell her, you can have my husband, she tells her that she hopes she will keep protecting him and be his faithful soldier, Guardian, even but nothing among the lines of what you assumed Storm told.
Storm clearly states a few bubbles before that she is trying to control her jealousy side, because if Storm didn't control herself, Nakia would have been burned alive and broken to million frozen pieces. Ororo loves T'Challa a lot, and T'Challa proves that as well with KIB: BP issue that came out this week. I am actually quite happy with how T'Challa handled the situation, he admitted his strong, powerful feelings for her but he is fully aware that there is nothing that he can do for her right at that moment and his country was at the danger he needed to prioritize and for that, I do respect T'Challa once more. I just hope that they don't ruin that moment with the next few issues.[/QUOTE]
Just going to have to agree to disagree. I refuse to reread any of that. lol.
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[QUOTE=Rang10;5373237]What comic issues is the 2nd and third images?[/QUOTE]
uncanny 387. I like to point to this issue to show even the xoffices understood their connection and established it before hudlin was a factor.
[QUOTE=lemonpeace;5373228]hmmm so from what I'm gathering, in broad strokes, the breakdown mainly boils down to the BP/Marvel creative branch and the X-Men creative branch not being on the same page and enabling petty digs at the other camp. which I can see happening, especially from what I hear about the lengths Marvel went to undercut the X-Men at certain points in their history. there appears to have been some execution issues (that I clearly need to look into for a better idea) but it seems like outside of personal grievances the concept itself is viable if Marvel just sat down and worked it out. I think Storm's connection to Wakanda and their pantheon was a cool marriage of ideas, shame it ended up coming with so many hang-ups. given how much it appears to seesaw it might be for the best to leave well enough alone but, as someone who came up entirely removed from the drama of it, i would kinda like it if they figured it out one day. then again, I'm also someone rooting for John Stewart and Yrra Cyril to reconcile, so maybe I'm not the best judge in these things. anyway thanks for the responses tho.[/QUOTE]
yes that is it essentially and this pettiness is amplified by the portion of the fsndom that get satisfaction in that to degree.
I think Coates handled it fine. if big names like catwoman and batman can work surely tchalla and ororo can.
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[QUOTE=butterflykyss;5373930]uncanny 387. I like to point to this issue to show even the xoffices understood their connection and established it before hudlin was a factor.
yes that is it essentially and this pettiness is amplified by the portion of the fsndom that get satisfaction in that to degree.
I think Coates handled it fine. if big names like catwoman and batman can work surely tchalla and ororo can.[/QUOTE]
And if they got the continous history of Selene and Batman it would have work. Though alot of fans were upset that Tom King went on for so long and then Bruce and Selena didn't even end up getting married so not sure if that's the best example. If they wanted they could have done the dance with Tchalla and Storm for awhile but that would take time, and issues, and money, and marvel wasn't here for that. No one can ever convince me that Tchalla and Ororo got the same respect any of these white couples get.
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[QUOTE=The92Ghost;5373843]I am European, and honestly, I was not shocked by that. You see at my country we have black minority and I do read about African traditions and stories, what happened between T'Challa and Ororo, when Ororo was at twelve is not something surprising. Those who actually read about African traditions, and some of their stories followed by a few other tribes that represent closely Africans, you will find out that at age 8 to 10 the boy chooses his girl (I will add here important note. Ororo asked T'Challa if he had someone special and he told her that he didn't find the right girl yet) and after that, the boy starts to flirt, the girl has the freedom to accept his flirts or decline his advances. If the girl responds positively at age of 12 to 15 the girl loses her virginity to the boy. When it comes to African traditions, what happened between T'Challa and Ororo is not a shock, it is natural. Yes, it happened a bit too fast. I agree with that, but here is the moment when I will input European term, first-sight love. Something which Americans fail to understand most of the time because they see love and marriage differently.
In my personal opinion, everything was natural between Ororo and T'Challa and if Americans have problems with that, then they should probably pull their heads out of the ground and actually sit and read more about African history and traditions. It is rich.
Once more, jwatson, I am sorry to do this to you, but I re-read the Black Panther Intergalactic storyline again, like yesterday so I can catch up with the new upcoming issues that will mark the end of it, and I must be honest with you. I really, really, honestly and very deeply think that you've misunderstood Storm's words. You need to concentrate on the entire event that has happened, Storm showed maturity, Black Panther showed maturity, I really, really don't see anything wrong at all with what happened, having in mind that Storm never told Nakia, you can have my man. I believe you intercepted her words wrongly.
She asked her to defend him and protect him, just like the Dora Mijare (Sorry if I pronounced that wrong) would do, but Storm [B]DOES NOT[/B] tell her, you can have my husband, she tells her that she hopes she will keep protecting him and be his faithful soldier, Guardian, even but nothing among the lines of what you assumed Storm told.
Storm clearly states a few bubbles before that she is trying to control her jealousy side, because if Storm didn't control herself, Nakia would have been burned alive and broken to million frozen pieces. Ororo loves T'Challa a lot, and T'Challa proves that as well with KIB: BP issue that came out this week. I am actually quite happy with how T'Challa handled the situation, he admitted his strong, powerful feelings for her but he is fully aware that there is nothing that he can do for her right at that moment and his country was at the danger he needed to prioritize and for that, I do respect T'Challa once more. I just hope that they don't ruin that moment with the next few issues.[/QUOTE]
you're spot on here and I completely agree with your breakdown. Coates was demonstrating in Ororo's ability to process what occurred to tchalla her confidence in herself as a woman and in him in their relationship. she never told her to sleep with tchalla or that she was ok with them dating. nothing even close to that happened.
oan I would like to remind everyone that ororo and tchalla original meeting was retconned back to the Claremont version as supported by the amazing xmen annual
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You know i still wonder how people get that Storm was 25 when xmen started. I know weird thought. But her powers she had at 12 and she met xavier before that and it was stated she didn't meet him again for a decade. But the decade wasn't from when her powers manifested at 12 it was from when she ran into shadow king.
But to the amazing xmen annual, i always wondered if the old lady was suppose to be gaia meeting storm.
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[QUOTE=jwatson;5373974]You know i still wonder how people get that Storm was 25 when xmen started. I know weird thought. But her powers she had at 12 and she met xavier before that and it was stated she didn't meet him again for a decade. But the decade wasn't from when her powers manifested at 12 it was from when she ran into shadow king.[/QUOTE]
Her age was given in one of Claremont's early issues. UXM 102 dated her being born in 1951 and that came out in 1974. That would have made her 25 in the issue, which tracks bc the original X-men were early 20s
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[QUOTE=Havok83;5373981]Her age was given in one of Claremont's early issues. UXM 102 dated her being born in 1951 and that came out in 1974. That would have made her 25 in the issue, which tracks bc the original X-men were early 20s[/QUOTE]
So it was closer to two decades since charles saw her with the shadow king. Thats a big different. But by those dates that would make her 23, which actually falls far closer to the numbers in my head of 20-22 depending on birthday.
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[QUOTE=Havok83;5373981]Her age was given in one of Claremont's early issues. UXM 102 dated her being born in 1951 and that came out in 1974. That would have made her 25 in the issue, which tracks bc the original X-men were early 20s[/QUOTE]
You wrote "1974", but I think you meant 1976, which would correlate with your date of Ororo being 25 in 1976 XM #102.
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[QUOTE=Phoenixx9;5374012]You wrote "1974", but I think you meant 1976, which would correlate with your date of Ororo being 25 in 1976 XM #102.[/QUOTE]
yeah it was 1976. Typo. Thanks
[QUOTE=jwatson;5373996]So it was closer to two decades since charles saw her with the shadow king. Thats a big different. But by those dates that would make her 23, which actually falls far closer to the numbers in my head of 20-22 depending on birthday.[/QUOTE]
It was a typo
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[QUOTE=jwatson;5373933]And if they got the continous history of Selene and Batman it would have work. Though alot of fans were upset that Tom King went on for so long and then Bruce and Selena didn't even end up getting married so not sure if that's the best example. If they wanted they could have done the dance with Tchalla and Storm for awhile but that would take time, and issues, and money, and marvel wasn't here for that. No one can ever convince me that Tchalla and Ororo got the same respect any of these white couples get.[/QUOTE]
who says they didn't work? Coates to me and many others show they can work and Al Ewing showed writers in the xoffices don't have to be petty when handling black male characters
That said I do agree about the respect of them in comparison to white ones.
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[QUOTE=yogaflame;5373641]My thoughts exactly.
Claremont made his view crystal clear in that first story:
[IMG]https://static1.cbrimages.com/wp-content/uploads/goodcomics/2012/06/ororotchalla5.jpg[/IMG]
Friendzone. FOREVER.
[IMG]https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia1.tenor.com%2Fimages%2Fef9448c3c2deb4951dad18df841948a4%2Ftenor.gif%3Fitemid%3D13736720&f=1&nofb=1[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Yep. This is spot on.
I, too, tried to give their relationship a try. Though I hated how they came together with no courtship, I previously really enjoyed both characters. I gave their relationship a fair shake and I actually enjoyed them on the F4 together. Dwayne Mcduffie wrote them very well together. Unfortunately after they left the F4 and his pen, they never found their footing again as a couple and I found it sweet relief when they separated. I didn't enjoy Coates Black Panther run at all. Despite the feats, I didn't like his Storm either. Conversely, I am enjoying Hickman's storm and I am looking forward to seeing what the future has for her.
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[QUOTE=BlkGldBlu;5373810]I guess you right, but I'm glad that it's canon that their each other first . Young love to true love.[/QUOTE]
Which was later retconned in an Annual post divorce. And with good reason, they drew T'Challa and Ororo, who canonically were supposed to be 11/12 to look like 17/18 year olds just so they can depict them having sex.
But if you like that shit...um ew.
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[QUOTE=Jalysia;5374173]Which was later retconned in an Annual post divorce. And with good reason, they drew T'Challa and Ororo, who canonically were supposed to be 11/12 to look like 17/18 year olds just so they can depict them having sex.
But if you like that shit...um ew.[/QUOTE]
IDK how that story was printed. They were kids, that shouldnt happen on superhero comics. Claremont fixed it an it is better
[QUOTE=butterflykyss;5374067]who says they didn't work? Coates to me and many others show they can work and[b] Al Ewing showed writers in the xoffices don't have to be petty when handling black male characters[/b]
That said I do agree about the respect of them in comparison to white ones.[/QUOTE]
It was refreshing to see it
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[QUOTE=jwatson;5373974]You know i still wonder how people get that Storm was 25 when xmen started. I know weird thought. But her powers she had at 12 and she met xavier before that and it was stated she didn't meet him again for a decade. But the decade wasn't from when her powers manifested at 12 it was from when she ran into shadow king.
[/QUOTE]
Storm was about 6 when she picked Xavier's pocket. Eleven when she left Cairo. 12 when she met T'Challa and arrived in Kenya. Claremont does age her at about 25 in the early Phoenix saga. Jean is 24 when she dies in DPS. Considering the characters are still barely 30, it makes sense to deage them to be about 21/22 back then instead, so that Kitty can still age up from 13.5-at least 21 or so now.
[QUOTE=jwatson;5373996]So it was closer to two decades since charles saw her with the shadow king. Thats a big different. But by those dates that would make her 23, which actually falls far closer to the numbers in my head of 20-22 depending on birthday.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Daedra;5374048]Should Ororo be ageless?[/QUOTE]
I liked Wein/Cockrum's immortal goddess origin too, but with the sliding timeline/retcons, the characters are essentially ageless.
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[QUOTE=butterflykyss;5373127]I didn't really care for BP: KiB. There were some nice parts but considering the writer has made known publicly his thoughts on topics particularly the xmen it made some of writing hard to read.
1. [B]The interactions between the characters seemed very rigid and almost impersonal at times. It would make sense to see lower ranking members of the nation so reverent as they were towards tchalla but the way oyoye and shuri were seemed OOC.[/B]
2. Thorne has made pretty clear he doesn't like the xmem, which is fine, but why then do you feel the need to incorporate elements of its lore to make the point of how formidable Wakanda is. So Wakanda has an entity meant to defeat the Phoenix yet it didn't appear during AvX nor did it appear in Aaron's current Phoenix story? Yea no that doesn't ring true at all especially considering the writer's opinion on the xmen
3. The issue in and of itself seemed to wrap up too nicely in a way that doesn't coincide with any of the other tie-ins. The Knull has engulfed the entire earth, has killed sentry conquered celestial yet wakanda could easily clear the atmosphere without the knull god sensing this and not immediately going to investigate this threat to his assault on earth?
4. Lastly, storm's inclusion made absolutely no sense. it was clear she was there only to shade her. Al Ewing I thought did a beautiful job incorporating Coates space run in a respectful way that made sense to the story and without the obvious need to disrupt what another writer had established. (i guess now diatractora can't say his run is not canon) I believe both this bp writer and specifically vita should take note.[/QUOTE]
The bolded was my reaction too. They just kept repeating their arguments as if stuck in a loop. If content pages 4 thru 17 had been cut down to 3 or 4 pages, I would have given it a 9 out of 10.
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[QUOTE=Daedra;5374048]Should Ororo be ageless?[/QUOTE]
most comic characters are "ageless" to a degree.
[QUOTE=Rang10;5374177]IDK how that story was printed. They were kids, that shouldnt happen on superhero comics. Claremont fixed it an it is better
It was refreshing to see it[/QUOTE]
it sure was and such a pleasant surprise. Ewing just put to bed any claim Coates run is somehow fanfic.
[QUOTE=Cville;5374285]The bolded was my reaction too. They just kept repeating their arguments as if stuck in a loop. If content pages 4 thru 17 had been cut down to 3 or 4 pages, I would have given it a 9 out of 10.[/QUOTE]
the storm pages could have been left out and more detail could have gone into the random Panther that could ward off Phoenix lol. people trash Coates for making storm a goddess which canonically makes sense but was cheering the anti-phoenix Panther on? yea I will pass.
