Ororo Munroe: Storm/Hadari Yao Appreciation 2021

[QUOTE=jwatson;5373264]I never had a problem with the idea of them together but how it happened as said really did leave a bad taste in my mouth but i actually gave it a chance and bought some books and the story hudlin wrote completely turned me off. I did not grow up in a house with a submissive mother that did everything my father said. I'm sure some people did. My father worked and my mother paid all the bills and did most of the heavy lifting it wasn't until she came up to a wall that my father stepped in but they always supported each other. I never saw my father try to make my mother less than what she was so from my perspective that is what felt like hudlin was doing. He did not imo see black women the way i personally do as Strong and he didn't see black men as i saw them, a true black man knows he is only as strong as his woman because they get stronger together.

But there was nothing else. They offered no Storm material, nothing, she literally went from lead to supporting character and they completely pulled her out the x-books and those of us who didn't even read BP at the time had no where else we could even go to read storm except a place where she was written subordinate.

As for claremont, he himself said they were enver meant to be together. He himself said they were too powerful in personality and neither would relent and in a lot of ways he was right expect hudlin had ororo continuously relenting.

Then came coates, i personally was enjoying Extraodinary Xmen and i vs x and there was peace among fans again and coates came along and i stanned him hard in the beginning, i really did, i didn't listen to some of the gripes about his writing like slavery and stuff but after years of reading tchalla being nothing but good to Ororo there was just no going back for me when he had her basically dress him down to Nakia and act like he was some basic dude that didn't change. I honestly felt in the relationship BP was the true VIP this time around but that is all Ororo wrote. I don't want to read about a man so desperately in love with a woman, a king fighting slavery to get back to her, for him to be treated like some basic manslut. But that's just me personally, if i'm honest i don't do the groupthink if i like it i like it. To me it never made sense though how people tried to make it personal on both sides when as far as i'm concerned it never was for me it was purely the material and the fact that one could only be up at a time it seems.

There has never been middle ground. And honestly for me i didn't think there was any going back after they actually wrote Cap telling him to sit down and him watching his wife leave. To me that was worse than the annulment, worse than the fist fight but i still gave it another chance. I'm just done. It's not like i have a personal vendetta against them i just never got anything out of it as a purchaser of material but disappointment, confusion, and a distaste for the phrase "black love."

The only way i will accept it at this point is a splinter team from both franchises that work to build up both characers and have Storm reach out to her homeland in kenya as well. I need more than just a queen when im use to reading a warrior goddess. But i hope they never go there again just so i don't have to deal wiith it to be honest.

Especially since as is i'm only holding on to comics by a thread. I'm just so over having to feel like i have to fight to buy something to be represented in. And the black face art they do ([B]white people painted black to look black or asian people colored orange to look asian[/B]) makes me nausea to look at lately. Why in a visual medium can't artist do facial features (but now im just tangenting so i shall end it here.)[/QUOTE]

They're seriously doing that? I know they've had issues with colorism but this one sounds like something else.

[QUOTE=Jalysia;5374173]Which was later retconned in an Annual post divorce. And with good reason, they drew T'Challa and Ororo, who canonically were supposed to be 11/12 to look like 17/18 year olds just so they can depict them having sex.

But if you like that shit...um ew.[/QUOTE]

Let's not make them younger than they are. Ororo was 12 and T'Challa was 13 I guess, I am not sure how old T'Challa is, if we take his origins, he should be 30 years younger than Ororo since Ororo was born in later 1950, while T'Challa was born in 1980, which means that he is like 30 years younger. But I think they've scratched that for quite some time now and T'Challa is like, if not one, then a few years older than her.

As far for the comment above, I do not enjoy such things but I do consider that this happened in Africa and they both were raised with African traditions, so it is normal, regardless of what everyone else says or thinks. Once more in Africa, most girls lose their virginity around that age. And boys pick their girls at age 8 to 9, which is another strange thing for me personally but yeah it is so. This usually gives them a few years, 2-3 years, to get to know each other, flirt and if the girl is interested to proceed. And for the record Storm was the one who was seeking to be recognized as matured and T'Challa obliged.

[QUOTE=The92Ghost;5374585]Let's not make them younger than they are. Ororo was 12 and T'Challa was 13 I guess, I am not sure how old T'Challa is, if we take his origins, he should be 30 years younger than Ororo since Ororo was born in later 1950, while T'Challa was born in 1980, which means that he is like 30 years younger. But I think they've scratched that for quite some time now and T'Challa is like, if not one, then a few years older than her.

As far for the comment above, I do not enjoy such things but I do consider that this happened in Africa and they both were raised with African traditions, so it is normal, regardless of what everyone else says or thinks. Once more in Africa, most girls lose their virginity around that age. And boys pick their girls at age 8 to 9, which is another strange thing for me personally but yeah it is so. This usually gives them a few years, 2-3 years, to get to know each other, flirt and if the girl is interested to proceed. And for the record Storm was the one who was seeking to be recognized as matured and T'Challa obliged.[/QUOTE]

I'm just glad it was retconned to be honest. A 12 year old girl asking to be matured through the d. Definitely a mn wrote that and as far as I know the writer may be black but he's american not african and that does not fly for me. They would have not done white children like that. It just is what it is. That scene felt like straight pedophilia to me.

The writer framing two children having sex is no different than a producer trying to write a script featuring an explicit scene between two children. It was gross, it showed how black girls are usually sexualized by the media and how they are suppose to somehow be more mature. Just thinking about the idea of a man thinking of a 12 year old wanting to be womanized and them letting him do it makes me want to throw up.

Just look at the art. Why can't these artist draw asian characters or black characters. They literally draw the same faces and rely on the colorist to make the person "look black" via color. Compare that to kirby and artist of the past. Look at kwannon in some panels in hellions. Etc. Look at jubilee, amadeus, many recent storm images and take the color off of it and if not for the costume you would never know. The colorist should rely on the artist who relies on the colorist but I'm starting to feel comics as is, well most isn't a good art medium. You can draw all the flashy stuff you want but if you can't do the variance of facil features in a visual medium you just shouldn't be there.

And latino characters? Oh boy. There is a lot of variances there but 9.5 out of 10 times they only draw them looking european too.

For an example of good art go read kib:black panther or just look through it and look at those faces those beautiful faces. Or see russel dauterman. Real artist.

[QUOTE=butterflykyss;5374432]most comic characters are "ageless" to a degree.



it sure was and such a pleasant surprise. Ewing just put to bed any claim Coates run is somehow fanfic.



the storm pages could have been left out and more detail could have gone into the random Panther that could ward off Phoenix lol. people trash Coates for making storm a goddess which canonically makes sense but was cheering the anti-phoenix Panther on? yea I will pass.[/QUOTE]

Details would have been nice given the phoenix can blow up planets. Having anti planet ending threats is normal for Wakanda. In Priest they had a procedure for dealing with Galactus if he showed up. They don't expand on it, its just a 'thats crazy moment'.

If Coates made her a goddes in a X-men comic book than I wouldn't care. But he had to trash, rewrite Bast, and Wakandan history via a Native American analog to do it. That was out of line. Vita did the same thing in her Marauders issue. Changing history unnecessarily for a certain outcome.

[QUOTE=butterflykyss;5374432]most comic characters are "ageless" to a degree.



it sure was and such a pleasant surprise. Ewing just put to bed any claim Coates run is somehow fanfic.



the storm pages could have been left out and [B]more detail could have gone into the random Panther that could ward off Phoenix [/B]lol. people trash Coates for making storm a goddess which canonically makes sense but was cheering the anti-phoenix Panther on? yea I will pass.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, when I saw that I rolled my eyes and went lol. The absolute absurdity.

[QUOTE=jwatson;5374599]Just look at the art. Why can't these artist draw asian characters or black characters. They literally draw the same faces and rely on the colorist to make the person "look black" via color. Compare that to kirby and artist of the past. Look at kwannon in some panels in hellions. Etc. Look at jubilee, amadeus, many recent storm images and take the color off of it and if not for the costume you would never know. The colorist should rely on the artist who relies on the colorist but I'm starting to feel comics as is, well most isn't a good art medium. You can draw all the flashy stuff you want but if you can't do the variance of facil features in a visual medium you just shouldn't be there.

And latino characters? Oh boy. There is a lot of variances there but 9.5 out of 10 times they only draw them looking european too.

For an example of good art go read kib:black panther or just look through it and look at those faces those beautiful faces. Or see russel dauterman. Real artist.[/QUOTE]


Ororo is a mixture of African and American, she is not pure African like Wakanda people. I do agree that KiB BP art was really good this week, but I've seen them look worse. It really depends on the artist and his take on the characters. Some understand a mixture of African and American, to be American face with black skin (quite possible if I may add), others understand 50/50 for face and lighter tone of black colour for skin (very possible as well). Storm was always depicted as the latter than the first one.

So I'm scrolling through my Disney plus and every time I go over and X-Men movie Storm face is always front and center all except apocalypse. Am I reading too much into this or is there big MCU Storm focus going on?

[QUOTE=BlkGldBlu;5374766]So I'm scrolling through my Disney plus and every time I go over and X-Men movie Storm face is always front and center all except apocalypse. Am I reading too much into this or is there big MCU Storm focus going on?[/QUOTE]

Nothing concrete just the rumor of her possibly appearing in thor besides that disney know where that bread and butter is. Storm. I still want disney to give us a proper princess movie but with Storm with some old school disney animation and the recent independence they give to some female princess now. Wash that frog princess trash away.

[QUOTE=butterflykyss;5373930] if big names like catwoman and batman can work surely tchalla and ororo can.[/QUOTE]

Catwoman, from her initial conception, was [B]always [/B]in Batman's wheelhouse. She was literally [B]created for him[/B][as a sexy antagonist, part of [I]his[/I] rogue's gallery, in Batman #1 no less]. And they STILL didn't get married. :cool:

Trying to pair Storm and BP is more akin to trying to pair Wonder Woman with Batman. Fun for an Elseworld, but it would never work in the main continuity/for the long haul.

[QUOTE=The92Ghost;5374585]Let's not make them younger than they are. Ororo was 12 and T'Challa was 13 I guess, I am not sure how old T'Challa is, if we take his origins, he should be 30 years younger than Ororo since Ororo was born in later 1950, while T'Challa was born in 1980, which means that he is like 30 years younger. But I think they've scratched that for quite some time now and T'Challa is like, if not one, then a few years older than her..[/QUOTE]

You have to ignore specific years, because the timeline is always sliding. It's more about relativity. Priest said T'Challa was already into his 30's at the start of his run in the late 90's. In my head he was about 4 years older than her(so he was 16 when she was 12). He's 5 extra years older now from Coates run. So let's say she's now 29/30, he's more like 38/39.

[QUOTE=yogaflame;5374850]Catwoman, from her initial conception, was [B]always [/B]in Batman's wheelhouse. She was literally [B]created for him[/B][as a sexy antagonist, part of [I]his[/I] rogue's gallery, in Batman #1 no less]. And they STILL didn't get married. :cool:

Trying to pair Storm and BP is more akin to trying to pair Wonder Woman with Batman. Fun for an Elseworld, but it would never work in the main continuity/for the long haul.[/QUOTE]

I see it more as trying to pair Wonder Woman with Aquaman, but get what're saying. Maybe it would've worked in the 90's when T'Challa was pretty much absent, but I don't see it working now that he has his own franchise now.

[QUOTE=The92Ghost;5374722]Ororo is a mixture of African and American, she is not pure African like Wakanda people. I do agree that KiB BP art was really good this week, but I've seen them look worse. It really depends on the artist and his take on the characters. Some understand a mixture of African and American, to be American face with black skin (quite possible if I may add), others understand 50/50 for face and lighter tone of black colour for skin (very possible as well). Storm was always depicted as the latter than the first one.[/QUOTE]

Black people in America have features too. And America isn't white. I don't even honestly understand what is meant by an American face.

[QUOTE=jwatson;5374874]Black people in America have features too. And America isn't white. I don't even honestly understand what is meant by an American face.[/QUOTE]

I can't speak for nobody else, but growing up in my area, people would equate not having a wide-ish nose or big-ass J.J. Evans lips as white folks features.

[QUOTE=Sin Nick;5374891]I can't speak for nobody else, but growing up in my area, people would equate not having a wide-ish nose or big-ass J.J. Evans lips as white folks features.[/QUOTE]

Wow this is the first i'm hearing this and i grew up in the tristate. The good tristate.

[QUOTE=yogaflame;5374865]You have to ignore specific years, because the timeline is always sliding. It's more about relativity. Priest said T'Challa was already into his 30's at the start of his run in the late 90's. In my head he was about 4 years older than her(so he was 16 when she was 12). He's 5 extra years older now from Coates run. So let's say she's now 29/30, he's more like 38/39.[/QUOTE]

Woah, I don't think they will go for a decade gap between Storm and T'Challa, but it is true that T'Challa older than Ororo in the Intergalactic Empire, she was matured as well, so I saw them more like they have several years difference in that story arc. Like Storm is around 35-36, while he is like you said 38-39.

But for the one in KiB BP, yeah they look like they have 5-10 years difference now... just now noticed.

[QUOTE=The92Ghost;5375055]Woah, I don't think they will go for a decade gap between Storm and T'Challa, but it is true that T'Challa older than Ororo in the Intergalactic Empire, she was matured as well, so I saw them more like they have several years difference in that story arc. Like Storm is around 35-36, while he is like you said 38-39.

But for the one in KiB BP, yeah they look like they have 5-10 years difference now... just now noticed.[/QUOTE]

She wasn't matured because Black panther went through a worm hole and storm was still on earth. So only BP aged and maybe Manifold but not shur, storm and the others.

[QUOTE=Jalysia;5374650]Yeah, when I saw that I rolled my eyes and went lol. The absolute absurdity.[/QUOTE]

Right?? I'm like sir you cannot have it both ways lol. Since you don't like the xmen find something from the Avengers lore to make the point aspects of your story is formidable as you intend to convey to the reader.

[QUOTE=Cville;5374614]Details would have been nice given the phoenix can blow up planets. Having anti planet ending threats is normal for Wakanda. In Priest they had a procedure for dealing with Galactus if he showed up. They don't expand on it, its just a 'thats crazy moment'.

If Coates made her a goddes in a X-men comic book than I wouldn't care. But he had to trash, rewrite Bast, and Wakandan history via a Native American analog to do it. That was out of line. Vita did the same thing in her Marauders issue. Changing history unnecessarily for a certain outcome.[/QUOTE]


Absolutely that would have been nice OR simply don't reference the Phoenix. It literally came out of nowhere. Has this entity (anti-panther phoenix) been referenced before in Black Panther?

To your next point it comes across as a double standard that I was just mentioning. It is fine to refer to elements of xmen lore even when it's nonsensical and doesn't align to any established canon so long as it makes Wakanda look cool. The anti-phoenix Panther does exactly what you've mentioned Coates did, which was change an aspect of Wakanda lore. In the case of Coates, what specifically did Coates change? From what I understood he was adding more meat to a pantheon that didn't exist previously. So its not really the same where Coates changed history because said history wasn't established. Also, wasn't Bast changed from male to female within the BP lore? One could argue Coates should not have included Storm and the xmen lore within the BP one but that is a moot point. He did it. What he did with those elements however was canonically sound. Im not sure Thorne representation of Wakanda is the same.

[QUOTE=lemonpeace;5373228]hmmm so from what I'm gathering, in broad strokes, [B]the breakdown mainly boils down to the BP/Marvel creative branch and the X-Men creative branch not being on the same page and enabling petty digs at the other camp.[/B] which I can see happening, especially from what I hear about the lengths Marvel went to undercut the X-Men at certain points in their history.[/QUOTE]

Understand you are dealing with two different offices. Which is made WORST when you toss in film rights and all that.
At the time you had a BRICK wall called Fox and various folks not wanting black folks as leads in movies-making any chance of that couple being on screen MOOT.


[QUOTE]I think Coates handled it fine. if big names like catwoman and batman can work surely tchalla and ororo can.[/QUOTE]

Catwoman has HOW MANY SOLO ISSUES? You have a fully developed character that never took a backseat to anyone not even Batman.

Lois Lane same thing. Along with she's WITH Clark/Superman in everything. They were forever linked.

Mera-same thing. Except for the 90s when Aquaman was bed hopping and being moody.

It does not work between 2 franchises because one will over run the other.

No one wants X-Men drama in Wakanda-we saw what happened the last time.

No one wants Wakanda drama in X-Men.

I will put it like this- X-Men fans are you willing to have an X-Men film held hostage by Wakanda? Your first MCU X-Men film be Storm in Wakanda discovering how per powers? Black Panther forming X-Men academy and seeking all the mutants on the planet? Instead of Xavier. So your first X-Men team could be Storm, Prodigy, Synch, Sunspot, Gateway and Maggot?

Don't think they wouldn't do that.

[QUOTE=yogaflame;5374850]Catwoman, from her initial conception, was [B]always [/B]in Batman's wheelhouse. She was literally [B]created for him[/B][as a sexy antagonist, part of [I]his[/I] rogue's gallery, in Batman #1 no less]. And they STILL didn't get married. :cool:

Trying to pair Storm and BP is more akin to trying to pair Wonder Woman with Batman. Fun for an Elseworld, but it would never work in the main continuity/for the long haul.[/QUOTE]

all true but the initial point is big characters can date and it work. Coates demonstrated that. his inclusion of Ororo in the BP books didn't impede on what the xoffices was doing with her. them beung a couple doesn't impede on the stories in the xbooks. the idea that they can't work I believe is a manufacturered one.

[QUOTE=skyvolt2000;5375735]Understand you are dealing with two different offices. Which is made WORST when you toss in film rights and all that.
At the time you had a BRICK wall called Fox and various folks not wanting black folks as leads in movies-making any chance of that couple being on screen MOOT.




Catwoman has HOW MANY SOLO ISSUES? You have a fully developed character that never took a backseat to anyone not even Batman.

Lois Lane same thing. Along with she's WITH Clark/Superman in everything. They were forever linked.

Mera-same thing. Except for the 90s when Aquaman was bed hopping and being moody.

It does not work between 2 franchises because one will over run the other.

No one wants X-Men drama in Wakanda-we saw what happened the last time.

No one wants Wakanda drama in X-Men.

I will put it like this- X-Men fans are you willing to have an X-Men film held hostage by Wakanda? Your first MCU X-Men film be Storm in Wakanda discovering how per powers? Black Panther forming X-Men academy and seeking all the mutants on the planet? Instead of Xavier. So your first X-Men team could be Storm, Prodigy, Synch, Sunspot, Gateway and Maggot?

Don't think they wouldn't do that.[/QUOTE]

I understand marvel is a shared universe and seeing heroes interact isn't a bad so long as these interactions can be respectful to all parties involved. at least that is my take.

[QUOTE=skyvolt2000;5375735]Understand you are dealing with two different offices. Which is made WORST when you toss in film rights and all that.
At the time you had a BRICK wall called Fox and various folks not wanting black folks as leads in movies-making any chance of that couple being on screen MOOT.




Catwoman has HOW MANY SOLO ISSUES? You have a fully developed character that never took a backseat to anyone not even Batman.

Lois Lane same thing. Along with she's WITH Clark/Superman in everything. They were forever linked.

Mera-same thing. Except for the 90s when Aquaman was bed hopping and being moody.

It does not work between 2 franchises because one will over run the other.

No one wants X-Men drama in Wakanda-we saw what happened the last time.

No one wants Wakanda drama in X-Men.

I will put it like this- X-Men fans are you willing to have an X-Men film held hostage by Wakanda? Your first MCU X-Men film be Storm in Wakanda discovering how per powers? Black Panther forming X-Men academy and seeking all the mutants on the planet? Instead of Xavier. So your first X-Men team could be Storm, Prodigy, Synch, Sunspot, Gateway and Maggot?

Don't think they wouldn't do that.[/QUOTE]

Not only that honestly on a more simple note i don't want no 40 year old storm at the start to match Tchalla age in the MCU. I can start with that.

[QUOTE=jwatson;5375890]Not only that honestly on a more simple note i don't want no 40 year old storm at the start to match Tchalla age in the MCU. I can start with that.[/QUOTE]

yea I wouldn't want that either. not trying to be an age-aphobe but would prefer them showing her younger but I understand this will be unlikely considering the other heroes age.

Storm's IP is by far more centered on X-Men/mutants, as part of and leader of a team. BP's IP is by far more centered on Wakanda, where he is prince/king. Fundamentally their IP's are independent. Putting them together will only satisfy a narrow bandwidth of their respective customer base/fans. It's a diminished return. BP already made a billion+ without Storm. Storm became a household name without BP. None of their joint ventures have exceeded their independent ventures. Can good stories starring both of them be made? Of course. But a good story can come from anywhere. BP fans don't like Storm's power dwarfing him. Storm fans don't like her being diminished for his glory. McDuffie was the only one to basically balance them, but for what? An obscure few issues run of FF no one cares about?

Black love is great and should be celebrated; but it should be celebrated honorably and with focused intention, not as an afterthought, or a sales gimmick. T'Challa and Ororo both deserve better. Readers deserve better.

[QUOTE=yogaflame;5375908]Storm's IP is by far more centered on X-Men/mutants, as part of and leader of a team. BP's IP is by far more centered on Wakanda, where he is prince/king. Fundamentally their IP's are independent. Putting them together will only satisfy a narrow bandwidth of their respective customer base/fans. It's a diminished return. BP already made a billion+ without Storm. Storm became a household name without BP. None of their joint ventures have exceeded their independent ventures. Can good stories starring both of them be made? Of course. But a good story can come from anywhere. BP fans don't like Storm's power dwarfing him. Storm fans don't like her being diminished for his glory. McDuffie was the only one to basically balance them, but for what? An obscure few issues run of FF no one cares about?

Black love is great and should be celebrated; but it should be celebrated honorably and with focused intention, not as an afterthought, or a sales gimmick. T'Challa and Ororo both deserve better. Readers deserve better.[/QUOTE]

And the church says amen. Why should black love be defined as any less than white love. We court, we date, we hang out for a long time before marriage. I mean come on, if Reed didn't see sue in 20 years real time as a romantic interest and then they got married after less than a year i just can't imagine white people being like "yaaaaaaaaaaaaaassss white love!"

[QUOTE=yogaflame;5375908]Storm's IP is by far more centered on X-Men/mutants, as part of and leader of a team. BP's IP is by far more centered on Wakanda, where he is prince/king. Fundamentally their IP's are independent. Putting them together will only satisfy a narrow bandwidth of their respective customer base/fans. It's a diminished return. BP already made a billion+ without Storm. Storm became a household name without BP. None of their joint ventures have exceeded their independent ventures. Can good stories starring both of them be made? Of course. But a good story can come from anywhere. BP fans don't like Storm's power dwarfing him. Storm fans don't like her being diminished for his glory. McDuffie was the only one to basically balance them, but for what? An obscure few issues run of FF no one cares about?

Black love is great and should be celebrated; but it should be celebrated honorably and with focused intention, not as an afterthought, or a sales gimmick. T'Challa and Ororo both deserve better. Readers deserve better.[/QUOTE]

I think you make valid points but you can't assume all fans look at their relationship together as a negative. there are many who in fact love the pairing. speaking specifically for storm fans, I see some blame her being a part of the black panther as inhibiting to her development but her development was lacking throughout the franchise under lobdell, under carey, under Aaron, under bendis, under fraction, under Guggenheim and others writers who controlled the flagship titles because they didn't want to. when Jean, Scott, Logan, kitty, rogue, Emma and magneto were driving the xmen stories it wasnt because of black Panther. this burden resides with the xoffices. when writers have tried to do better for them (hudlin and coates) some fans didn't appreciate it.

in regards to black love being shown honorable, how could you read coates' run and not conclude it was shown as as such. tchalla fought an entire galactic empire to get back to storm. if that is not honor I'm not sure what is.

[QUOTE=skyvolt2000;5375735]Understand you are dealing with two different offices. Which is made WORST when you toss in film rights and all that.
At the time you had a BRICK wall called Fox and various folks not wanting black folks as leads in movies-making any chance of that couple being on screen MOOT.




Catwoman has HOW MANY SOLO ISSUES? You have a fully developed character that never took a backseat to anyone not even Batman.

Lois Lane same thing. Along with she's WITH Clark/Superman in everything. They were forever linked.

Mera-same thing. Except for the 90s when Aquaman was bed hopping and being moody.

It does not work between 2 franchises because one will over run the other.

No one wants X-Men drama in Wakanda-we saw what happened the last time.

No one wants Wakanda drama in X-Men.

I will put it like this- X-Men fans are you willing to have an X-Men film held hostage by Wakanda? Your first MCU X-Men film be Storm in Wakanda discovering how per powers? Black Panther forming X-Men academy and seeking all the mutants on the planet? Instead of Xavier. So your first X-Men team could be Storm, Prodigy, Synch, Sunspot, Gateway and Maggot?

Don't think they wouldn't do that.[/QUOTE]

I do not think that they will do that, yes they can do that but no they will not. Kevin Faggie won't allow it. He stated multiple times that he liked the 90's X-Men. I just hope we will not get too much 90's interference and that he would concentrate on the new on-going era with Hickman that offers a lot more diversity.

[QUOTE=The92Ghost;5375964]I do not think that they will do that, yes they can do that but no they will not. Kevin Faggie won't allow it. He stated multiple times that he liked the 90's X-Men. I just hope we will not get too much 90's interference and that he would concentrate on the new on-going era with Hickman that offers a lot more diversity.[/QUOTE]

I could get behind 90s storm but I might prefer goddess storm!! lol

[QUOTE=butterflykyss;5375945]I think you make valid points but you can't assume all fans look at their relationship together as a negative. there are many who in fact love the pairing. speaking specifically for storm fans, I see some blame her being a part of the black panther as inhibiting to her development but her development was lacking throughout the franchise under lobdell, under carey, under Aaron, under bendis, under fraction, under Guggenheim and others writers who controlled the flagship titles because they didn't want to. when Jean, Scott, Logan, kitty, rogue, Emma and magneto were driving the xmen stories it wasnt because of black Panther. this burden resides with the xoffices. when writers have tried to do better for them (hudlin and coates) some fans didn't appreciate it.

in regards to black love being shown honorable, how could you read coates' run and not conclude it was shown as as such. tchalla fought an entire galactic empire to get back to storm. if that is not honor I'm not sure what is.[/QUOTE]

The only problem i honestly have with you blaming the x-office solely is the fact that hudlin himself said he offered a deal to BET to get Storm over to the BP side of things. That is why she was pulled and we honestly don't know how long that contract was in effect for but i feel like basically your saying three other writers are flat out lying (or thats what it feels like) when they say there was a deal in place where they couldn't just use Storm the way they wanted to. She was being used just fine before the initial pull to BP and no one can deny her trajectory of becoming irrelevant in the x-books didn't coincide with that. And we can't say what other BP writers said to the x-team at the time considering they were in a position of very little power at the time with the x-film rights being elsewhere.

[QUOTE=jwatson;5375991]The only problem i honestly have with you blaming the x-office solely is the fact that hudlin himself said he offered a deal to BET to get Storm over to the BP side of things. That is why she was pulled and we honestly don't know how long that contract was in effect for but i feel like basically your saying three other writers are flat out lying (or thats what it feels like) when they say there was a deal in place where they couldn't just use Storm the way they wanted to. She was being used just fine before the initial pull to BP and no one can deny her trajectory of becoming irrelevant in the x-books didn't coincide with that. And we can't say what other BP writers said to the x-team at the time considering they were in a position of very little power at the time with the x-film rights being elsewhere.[/QUOTE]


And i just wanted to add if it was about the x-team just not wanting to use storm, why did they at least have the respect to not try to replace her. usually in a situation like that they would have brought in an alternate or even a white character with powers close to hers or another black character but they didn't. To me that says they felt storm could not be replaced.

[QUOTE=jwatson;5376005]And i just wanted to add if it was about the x-team just not wanting to use storm, why did they at least have the respect to not try to replace her. usually in a situation like that they would have brought in an alternate or even a white character with powers close to hers or another black character but they didn't. To me that says they felt storm could not be replaced.[/QUOTE]

They actually did, exactly that. Let's not forget Crystal is a pure copy of Storm's powers just with all elements.



Putting aside the above, I was thinking about Storm Godhood and something flicked in my mind. Storm represents both Gaia and Typhon, the Primordial Deities of Earth and Storms. I wonder... if her bloodline sprout from them. I mean Typhon was the god of the storm, and Gaia has the same Empathic link with Earth, she is the Earth itself, so Storm Empathic capabilities may come from Gaia, while her weather manipulation powers come from Typhon. Just a theory I had in mind.

[QUOTE=butterflykyss;5375583]Right?? I'm like sir you cannot have it both ways lol. Since you don't like the xmen find something from the Avengers lore to make the point aspects of your story is formidable as you intend to convey to the reader.




Absolutely that would have been nice OR simply don't reference the Phoenix. It literally came out of nowhere. Has this entity (anti-panther phoenix) been referenced before in Black Panther?

To your next point it comes across as a double standard that I was just mentioning. It is fine to refer to elements of xmen lore even when it's nonsensical and doesn't align to any established canon so long as it makes Wakanda look cool. The anti-phoenix Panther does exactly what you've mentioned Coates did, which was change an aspect of Wakanda lore. In the case of Coates, what specifically did Coates change? From what I understood he was adding more meat to a pantheon that didn't exist previously. So its not really the same where Coates changed history because said history wasn't established. Also, wasn't Bast changed from male to female within the BP lore? One could argue Coates should not have included Storm and the xmen lore within the BP one but that is a moot point. He did it. What he did with those elements however was canonically sound. Im not sure Thorne representation of Wakanda is the same.[/QUOTE]

The Panther weapon doesn't change anything. Based on dialogue it doensnt seem like they always had it or used it against the Phoenix, but is a new piece of technology.

Bast can be any gender. I believe it says she has a Male and female form.

He made the gods mortal than became gods through prayer. Bast is part of a Pantheon that the sun god Atum returned to Earth and created them.

But if you want to talk about wild changes in history, you gotta read Aaron's Avengers. [Spoil]He just made the Phoenix Thors' mother[/spoil]. But that was a cliff hanger ending so we'll see how it pans out. Lol.

[QUOTE=yogaflame;5375908]Storm's IP is by far more centered on X-Men/mutants, as part of and leader of a team. BP's IP is by far more centered on Wakanda, where he is prince/king. Fundamentally their IP's are independent. Putting them together will only satisfy a narrow bandwidth of their respective customer base/fans. It's a diminished return. BP already made a billion+ without Storm. Storm became a household name without BP. None of their joint ventures have exceeded their independent ventures. Can good stories starring both of them be made? Of course. But a good story can come from anywhere. BP fans don't like Storm's power dwarfing him. Storm fans don't like her being diminished for his glory. McDuffie was the only one to basically balance them, but for what? An obscure few issues run of FF no one cares about?

Black love is great and should be celebrated; but it should be celebrated honorably and with focused intention, not as an afterthought, or a sales gimmick. [B]T'Challa and Ororo both deserve better. Readers deserve better.[/B][/QUOTE]

Hallelujah! Glory be to the most High!

[QUOTE=The92Ghost;5376061]They actually did, exactly that. Let's not forget Crystal is a pure copy of Storm's powers just with all elements.



Putting aside the above, I was thinking about Storm Godhood and something flicked in my mind. Storm represents both Gaia and Typhon, the Primordial Deities of Earth and Storms. I wonder... if her bloodline sprout from them. I mean Typhon was the god of the storm, and Gaia has the same Empathic link with Earth, she is the Earth itself, so Storm Empathic capabilities may come from Gaia, while her weather manipulation powers come from Typhon. Just a theory I had in mind.[/QUOTE]

Crystal first appearance was a whole decade before Storm.

To the other point, it could be very possible. Thanks to butterflykiss i looked up amazing annual and it was actually pretty good, in it i am convinced the old woman who disappears at the end was gaia.

[QUOTE=The92Ghost;5376061]They actually did, exactly that. Let's not forget Crystal is a pure copy of Storm's powers just with all elements.

[/QUOTE]

Crystal debuted a full decade before Storm, so no. If anyone was a half-hearted attempt to replace Storm it was the Five Light's Oya. She's from Africa, but instead of being celebrated as a goddess, she was rejected as a witch. Instead of reveling in her powers, spiritually one with the earth and the Goddess, she was a repressed Christian ashamed of her abilities.

[QUOTE=jwatson;5375927]And the church says amen. Why should black love be defined as any less than white love. We court, we date, we hang out for a long time before marriage. I mean come on, if Reed didn't see sue in 20 years real time as a romantic interest and then they got married after less than a year i just can't imagine white people being like "yaaaaaaaaaaaaaassss white love!"[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Devaishwarya;5376181]Hallelujah! Glory be to the most High![/QUOTE]

[IMG]https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2F3o85xo9b1nN5oOQJgI%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1&nofb=1[/IMG]

[QUOTE=jwatson;5375890]Not only that honestly on a more simple note i don't want no 40 year old storm at the start to match Tchalla age in the MCU. I can start with that.[/QUOTE]

Won’t have to worry about her age matching T’Challa since Feige is hellbent on not recasting him.

[QUOTE=jwatson;5376193]Crystal first appearance was a whole decade before Storm.

To the other point, it could be very possible. Thanks to butterflykiss i looked up amazing annual and it was actually pretty good, in it i am convinced the old woman who disappears at the end was gaia.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=yogaflame;5376333]Crystal debuted a full decade before Storm, so no. If anyone was a half-hearted attempt to replace Storm it was the Five Light's Oya. She's from Africa, but instead of being celebrated as a goddess, she was rejected as a witch. Instead of reveling in her powers, spiritually one with the earth and the Goddess, she was a repressed Christian ashamed of her abilities.[/QUOTE]

Really? Had no idea, I thought the Inhumans were created like a decade after Fox had the rights over X-Men.

Yeah, I agree with the comment for Oya, she was strange, I never liked her for some reason.

I think it would be cool if Storm ends up having her Godhead from those both Primordial Deities, imagine what can she do if she is indeed their daughter.

[QUOTE=BlackClaw;5376473]Won’t have to worry about her age matching T’Challa since Feige is hellbent on not recasting him.[/QUOTE]

I heard rumours that Killmonger from an alternative dimension will take on the mantel of BP. It is a rumour so take it with a grain of salt, but I see it happening since MCU's Killmonger is among the top favourited characters among the MCU fans, really loved.

[QUOTE=yogaflame;5375908]Storm's IP is by far more centered on X-Men/mutants, as part of and leader of a team. BP's IP is by far more centered on Wakanda, where he is prince/king. Fundamentally their IP's are independent. Putting them together will only satisfy a narrow bandwidth of their respective customer base/fans. It's a diminished return. BP already made a billion+ without Storm. Storm became a household name without BP. None of their joint ventures have exceeded their independent ventures. Can good stories starring both of them be made? Of course. But a good story can come from anywhere. BP fans don't like Storm's power dwarfing him. Storm fans don't like her being diminished for his glory. McDuffie was the only one to basically balance them, but for what? An obscure few issues run of FF no one cares about?

Black love is great and should be celebrated; but it should be celebrated honorably and with focused intention, not as an afterthought, or a sales gimmick. T'Challa and Ororo both deserve better. Readers deserve better.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=jwatson;5375927]And the church says amen. Why should black love be defined as any less than white love. We court, we date, we hang out for a long time before marriage. I mean come on, if Reed didn't see sue in 20 years real time as a romantic interest and then they got married after less than a year i just can't imagine white people being like "yaaaaaaaaaaaaaassss white love!"[/QUOTE]

Can I join your church cause this is the gospel truth!

[video]https://giphy.com/gifs/R19tshMPCTXlS/html5[/video]

[QUOTE=Cville;5376138]The Panther weapon doesn't change anything. Based on dialogue it doensnt seem like they always had it or used it against the Phoenix, but is a new piece of technology.

Bast can be any gender. I believe it says she has a Male and female form.

He made the gods mortal than became gods through prayer. Bast is part of a Pantheon that the sun god Atum returned to Earth and created them.

But if you want to talk about wild changes in history, you gotta read Aaron's Avengers. [Spoil]He just made the Phoenix Thors' mother[/spoil]. But that was a cliff hanger ending so we'll see how it pans out. Lol.[/QUOTE]

its not about it changing anything per say. its about the double standard of when its cool to reference xmej lore versus when it isn't.

and don't even get me started with that phoenix mess.