[QUOTE=Houseofhick;5465746]So true. When did it go from a world that fears and hates them to humans fear and hate them?[/QUOTE]
I think the better question is when did it go from "Sworn to protect a world that hates and fears them" to "Screw the rest of the world. We're just going to take care of our own people."
[QUOTE=Alan2099;5467852]I think the better question is when did it go from "Sworn to protect a world that hates and fears them" to "Screw the rest of the world. We're just going to take care of our own people."[/QUOTE]
If we were to pick an exact date i would say it started with house of m and has just been escalated since.
[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5467857]If we were to pick an exact date i would say it started with house of m and has just been escalated since.[/QUOTE]
Totally agree, though I like how the mutants are their own Country nowadays and that some of the X-Men are torn between the old ways and the new ways.
[QUOTE=PhoenixThanos;5467906]Totally agree, though I like how the mutants are their own Country nowadays and that some of the X-Men are torn between the old ways and the new ways.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, and that is only going to get worse as we go into the future. We already see it with sword in a big way.
[QUOTE=Alan2099;5467852]I think the better question is when did it go from "Sworn to protect a world that hates and fears them" to "Screw the rest of the world. We're just going to take care of our own people."[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't continue reading the franchise if that is the narrative they use after the Hickman era is done
[QUOTE=Alan2099;5467852]I think the better question is when did it go from "Sworn to protect a world that hates and fears them" to "Screw the rest of the world. We're just going to take care of our own people."[/QUOTE]
They did just save the world from the Amenth horde and Arrako....a problem mostly created by Apocalypse but still they cleaned up their mess to the worlds benefit lol.
I think there's been a disconnect because people were expecting this to seem more like a continuous story with a clear progression from a to b to c but instead it's being treated more like 'the new status quo' with no clear endgame in mind and the stories simply taking place in this world rather than furthering the overall narrative.
I don’t know how many posters here read Hickman’s run on Avengers but it’s structured fairly similarly. Tons of world building and plot over character development with pay off way down the road. For me it just made me excited for every issue but the wait can be brutal sometimes. Reading this run by Hickman when it’s all done is going the be a great day or two of just comic book goodness.
[QUOTE=Wolverine12;5468253]They did just save the world from the Amenth horde and Arrako....a problem mostly created by Apocalypse but still they cleaned up their mess to the worlds benefit lol.[/QUOTE]
It wasn't just cleaning up Apocalypse mess, they were also in the direct line of fire of where the invasion would land, plus it IS still their world too.
However the problem perceived here is not about what ever the X-men (i just use it synonymous for the heroic mutants of the Krakoan Nation, because it's still the X-men comics) are still heros or performing heroic deeds. Saving everyone regardless of what ever they like or dislike them. They very obviously still do.
It's the shift in attitude on why they are doing these deeds.
The "Sworn to protect a world that hates and fears them", line has usualy been understood as that the X-men, as classic super heros, are doing what they do because they believe in bettering the world above all else, beyond self interest or ideologies.
That they were given great powers by chance (the X-gene), which they could use for mere self interest or evil, but instead they use them for the good of all people. To make the world a better place for everyone.
But in the current state of their comics, the attitude of the mutant heros feels often less like they are doing the right because it's what they want to do, but more because it's what they should or have do it. There is this strong sense of a "noblesse oblige" attitude at the core of their actions now. That self interest and ideologies are now governing their actions primarily.
Which isn't helped by them directly talking of being "superior" and better than normal humans and considering themself and mutants as completely seperated species from them now.
Basicly the super hero core has been lost and replaced with a collective anti-hero direction.
So it feels like their tagline is now "Obliged to protect a world that hates and fears them, because humans are too dumb to realise mutants are the future, but mutants are better so they still do the right thing, duh!"
Which, as some have pointed out, seems to have really become the dominant presentation since House of M, where the focus of the X-men and mutants shifted towards self interest by necessity.
EDIT:
I mean "noblesse oblige" in the original sense of "nobility has to lead by example".
[QUOTE=Wolverine12;5468279]I don’t know how many posters here read Hickman’s run on Avengers but it’s structured fairly similarly. Tons of world building and plot over character development with pay off way down the road. For me it just made me excited for every issue but the wait can be brutal sometimes. [B]Reading this run by Hickman when it’s all done is going the be a great day or two of just comic book goodness.[/B][/QUOTE]
I'm VERY much looking forward to that. This will all read better in trade than it does single issues.
But that's the same for every comic these days, not just Hickman's output. There are no serialized comics that are fully satisfying reads until they are collected in trade.
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5468375]I'm VERY much looking forward to that. This will all read better in trade than it does single issues.
But that's the same for every comic these days, not just Hickman's output. There are no serialized comics that are fully satisfying reads until they are collected in trade.[/QUOTE]
I think there is many books that issue by issue are satisfying experience
[QUOTE=Grunty;5468327]
But in the current state of their comics, the attitude of the mutant heros feels often less like they are doing the right because it's what they want to do, but more because it's what they should or have do it. There is this strong sense of a "noblesse oblige" attitude at the core of their actions now. That self interest and ideologies are now governing their actions primarily.
Which isn't helped by them directly talking of being "superior" and better than normal humans and considering themself and mutants as completely seperated species from them now.
Basicly the super hero core has been lost and replaced with a collective anti-hero direction.
So it feels like their tagline is now "Obliged to protect a world that hates and fears them, because humans are too dumb to realise mutants are the future, but mutants are better so they still do the right thing, duh!"
Which, as some have pointed out, seems to have really become the dominant presentation since House of M, where the focus of the X-men and mutants shifted towards self interest by necessity.
EDIT:
I mean "noblesse oblige" in the original sense of "nobility has to lead by example".[/QUOTE]
X-men are far more cynical now, seems like protect humans is some kinda of heavy chore
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[B][SIZE=5][COLOR="#00FFFF"]Yassss! Hunty!![/COLOR]![/SIZE][/B]
[QUOTE=Wolverine12;5468253]They did just save the world from the Amenth horde and Arrako....a problem mostly created by Apocalypse but still they cleaned up their mess to the worlds benefit lol.[/QUOTE]
It’s also weird because there have been a number of plots (particularly in Marauders) that are all about saving humans or getting them life saving drugs, but I still see posters say on the daily that the X-Men don’t care about humans anymore. Of course there’s also a lot of shady stuff going on behind the scenes with the Professor, Beast, etc. but that doesn’t seem to be the mentality that everyone has.
[QUOTE=Alan2099;5467852]I think the better question is when did it go from "Sworn to protect a world that hates and fears them" to "Screw the rest of the world. We're just going to take care of our own people."[/QUOTE]
Show us the receipts.
[QUOTE=Kingdom X;5468607]It’s also weird because there have been a number of plots (particularly in Marauders) that are all about saving humans or getting them life saving drugs, but I still see posters say on the daily that the X-Men don’t care about humans anymore. Of course there’s also a lot of shady stuff going on behind the scenes with the Professor, Beast, etc. but that doesn’t seem to be the mentality that everyone has.[/QUOTE]
There’s a difference to save humans because you consider yourself as a human and you save your fellow.
And saving humans because it’s a good idea to do it, it’s a favour you do to them, a policy that could change… I find it terribly patronizing.
[QUOTE=Zelena;5468624]There’s a difference to save humans because you consider yourself as a human and you save your fellow.
And saving humans because it’s a good idea to do it, it’s a favour you do to them, a policy that could change… I find it terribly patronizing.[/QUOTE]
If I’m getting my life saved it’s not gonna really make a difference to me.
[QUOTE=Rang10;5468477]I think there is many books that issue by issue are satisfying experience[/QUOTE]
it's subjective, but for me nothing that costs $4-5 and can be finished in three minutes is going to be wholly satisfying compared to how packed individual issues were in previous decades.
And this is generally across the board as far as the Big Two go.
[QUOTE=Kingdom X;5468628]If I’m getting my life saved it’s not gonna really make a difference to me.[/QUOTE]
On a political level. People prefered to be saved but who wants his life to be saved by people who despise him?
[QUOTE=Kingdom X;5468628]If I’m getting my life saved it’s not gonna really make a difference to me.[/QUOTE]
SAME. I don't care WHY you feel the need to save me from a burning building or whatever, just please save me.
And on the flipside, please spare me thoughts and prayers should I perish and instead, STOP SETTING ME ON FIRE DAMN IT.
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5468631]it's subjective, but for me nothing that costs $4-5 and can be finished in three minutes is going to be wholly satisfying ....[/QUOTE]
I feel like there is a joke in here about sex
[QUOTE=Fokken;5468656]I feel like there is a joke in here about sex[/QUOTE]
There can be now!
[QUOTE=Kingdom X;5468607]It’s also weird because there have been a number of plots (particularly in Marauders) that are all about saving humans or getting them life saving drugs, but I still see posters say on the daily that the X-Men don’t care about humans anymore. Of course there’s also a lot of shady stuff going on behind the scenes with the Professor, Beast, etc. but that doesn’t seem to be the mentality that everyone has.[/QUOTE]
The life saving drugs are a bargain to get humans to approve Krakoa country and alow mutants free transit everywhere, mutants aren't being all nice about it
They are being economical.
[QUOTE=Kingdom X;5468607]It’s also weird because there have been a number of plots (particularly in Marauders) that are all about saving humans or getting them life saving drugs, but I still see posters say on the daily that the X-Men don’t care about humans anymore. Of course there’s also a lot of shady stuff going on behind the scenes with the Professor, Beast, etc. but that doesn’t seem to be the mentality that everyone has.[/QUOTE]
I can't speak for other posters, but what i usualy see in a critical manner is not that they don't care about fellow humans anymore, but that their official attitude seems to have shifted into feeling and acting like they are superior, better by default and more "civilized" than the rest of humanity.
They even regulary use "humans" as a term for something bad or weak now and clearly cut themself off from considering themself part of grand tribe that is humanity. Which feels like it only plays in the hands of those who had fought all this time to convince other people to not see them as fellow people anymore (just see Striker in God Loves, Man Kills).
So the overall reason for their heroics deeds feels like it has shifted from helping fellow people with the special gifts they have gained by random (shared) chance, to helping someone beneath them, weaker, less capable, than them. Pitty instead of regular compassion driving them, so to speak. Xavier even keeps talking of normal humans as if they are children. Hence why i compare the general attitude to a self-serving form of the "noblesse oblige" mentality.
And it's not like the individual X-men characters aren't still showing compassion for other humans. But it's that the group attitude seems to have shifted towards this "looking down" mentality.
It's not the villains anymore trying to divide humanity. It's the heros doing the job for them now. Which is where it feels like the X-men comics as a whole have lost their way.
The result of 15+ years of bad writing and editorial decissions having poisoned the franchise to a state, where heros have given up on their goals. A depressing state, not made better in my view by the current direction.
I just hope Hickman's end of the story will put it all in a better place (instead of just out of it's missery and start new).
I also find it somewhat problematic for the mutant metaphor, given that millions of people around the world are suffering and dying daily because of various horrible circumstances from persecution, armed conflicts, or industrial exploitation. Compared to that, do mutants deserve more attention and special treatment than all the normal humans suffering, because the mutants have super powers and the others don't?
It also makes some of Xavier's words from one of these pages posted somewhat problematic in my opinion:
Xavier: "They've murdered so many of us, the world has grown used to it." "This is just... how things are for... those people. Mutants."
Excuse me, but isn't that how things are for many humans since the dawn of mankind?
Does Xavier really believe normal humans aren't suffering just as much if not more on a much grander scale than mutants? Is he ignoring all the people persecuted for their appearance, sexuality or culture?
I understand the mutant metaphor as representing persecution and suffering, but also pride and expression, which is shared with various real life groups.
But when said fictional group is acting like they are better and more deserving than anyone else and cutting themself off from the very species that contains said real life groups, doesn't that harm the metaphor?
And that's one of the reasons why i'm so critical of the current direction as is, since we can't say yet if it's direction going forth (just making things worse and enforcing an eventual brute force destruction of everything as far as i can see it) or one to be explored and ultimately deconstructed now (which will be better enjoyed in trades though).
So one of the reasons Mutants now see themselves as gods is because of the 16.5 million mutants that were killed during the Morrison run.
[QUOTE=Houseofhick;5468699]So one of the reasons Mutants now see themselves as gods is because of the 16.5 million mutants that were killed during the Morrison run.[/QUOTE]
Gods don't get crushed by humans & robots on a regular basis. These people stay dying & cloning.
[QUOTE=Wolverine12;5468279]I don’t know how many posters here read Hickman’s run on Avengers but it’s structured fairly similarly. Tons of world building and plot over character development with pay off way down the road. For me it just made me excited for every issue but the wait can be brutal sometimes. Reading this run by Hickman when it’s all done is going the be a great day or two of just comic book goodness.[/QUOTE]
I thoroughly enjoyed his ultimate run but there I wasn’t overly familiar or attached to the characters. More a “what if” experience. I didn’t like the ending though. Felt it was a bit anticlimactic and short considering the buildup.
On his avengers run I went from very immersed to bored. Never finished secret war. The buildup again was the best part. The teasing of the ideas was so much more satisfying then the actual end. Much of it was introduced and then never properly explored. The ramp up of the threats made it so that characters introduced early on was disposed to make room for bigger threats. A common problem but still a problem.
Several ideas and beats are recurring. Children of the vault is the makers dome. Even though Mike Carey introduced them. So far that concept feels old and more like a side quest. Often it’s the execution of the ideas and not the ideas themselves that matter . With Hickman you get the feeling that he keeps reusing ideas without changing the execution enough. Some might say it’s great ideas painted in grey. With someone like Carey it could be great ideas or normal ideas but more focus on the execution. Instead of grey there where colors and that was what made it great.
Not to say that Mike Carey is perfect. But he has that touch that Hickman hasn’t. With Hickman it’s the ideas. Pile them on and speculate. That is where the fun is.
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5468631]it's subjective, but for me nothing that costs $4-5 and can be finished in three minutes is going to be wholly satisfying compared to how packed individual issues were in previous decades.
And this is generally across the board as far as the Big Two go.[/QUOTE]
There is a reason manga have become so popular. 120+ pages, every 3 to 4 months, for 8 to 10 bucks is quite a bargain compared to the monthly single issues of the big two.
Of course western cape comics have a higher quality of paper, ink and artists are less exploited or worked to the bone. So it's not like the japanese comic industry is necessarily better. But they still have a better marketing and release system.
It keeps making me wonder if it would in the long run be better to bring the single issues out purely digital for a lower price (and perhaps bi-monthly releases) and reserve physical copies to trades? Or at least only bring out the best sellers with the usual popular characters physicaly and bring out experimental or niche titles in pure digital form or in anthology books?
Of course it would likely cause a strong decline in initital income, but in the long run something needs to be done, since the market is currently worse than stagnating for the big two compared to the japanese comics or the indie-works.
[QUOTE=Journey;5468722]Gods don't get crushed by humans & robots on a regular basis. These people stay dying & cloning.[/QUOTE]
Look at what they've done!
Who?
No more
No more
No more
House of X 1
Magneto "You have new gods now."
I’m probably in the minority but I have heen immensely enjoying the Hickman era so far (buying more titles than I have in a long long time). I am loving take on X-Men and the place of mutants in the MU society as a whole.
[QUOTE=Wind Rider;5468774]I’m probably in the minority but I have heen immensely enjoying the Hickman era so far (buying more titles than I have in a long long time). I am loving take on X-Men and the place of mutants in the MU society as a whole.[/QUOTE]
Majority actually. Its revitalized the franchise and lit a fire in readership across the internet.
well.... less so here.
[QUOTE=Wind Rider;5468774]I’m probably in the minority but I have heen immensely enjoying the Hickman era so far (buying more titles than I have in a long long time). I am loving take on X-Men and the place of mutants in the MU society as a whole.[/QUOTE]
I would say you are in a majority here. Though no one can say how it reflects in the actualy reader-/buyership, or on a casual audience.
[QUOTE=Fokken;5468783]Majority actually. Its revitalized the franchise and lit a fire in readership across the internet.
well.... less so here.[/QUOTE]
It created a lot to talk and speculate about, which is definetly still going on, though the revitalization of general interest (outside discussion boards and media) seems to have been temporary, since the last sales data showed a general decrease since Hox/Pox which can't just be linked to the pandemic.
So this direction might slowly decline. At least in single issue sales. But interest and attention still are generaly high. Which makes it difficult to pinpoint the overall state of the current X-men comics.
However i can't say that this forum is a hotspot for negativity. Most reactions i see to the various books here are positive to excited, with smaller amount of people being directly negative or just critical of the direction or quality of individual books at the moment.
Being positive or supportive for this direction should be just as acceptable as being negative or critical, as long as nobody is being a jerk, considering these comics are an artistic medium ripe for subjective views.
[QUOTE=Fokken;5468783]Majority actually. Its revitalized the franchise and lit a fire in readership across the internet.
well.... less so here.[/QUOTE]
Yeah across the twitter, not so much on actual sales
Here I think it is very explit, like 60% like and 40% dislike. This post should have been a poll
[QUOTE=Rang10;5468845]Yeah across the twitter, not so much on actual sales
Here I think it is very explit, like 60% like and 40% dislike. This post should have been a poll[/QUOTE]
How can it be representative? Most of people who didn’t think Hickman’s run interesting have stopped reading it a long time ago and stopped writing on this thread.
[QUOTE=Grunty;5468698]I also find it somewhat problematic for the mutant metaphor, given that millions of people around the world are suffering and dying daily because of various horrible circumstances from persecution, armed conflicts, or industrial exploitation. Compared to that, do mutants deserve more attention and special treatment than all the normal humans suffering, because the mutants have super powers and the others don't?[/QUOTE]
It was how I understood the “protect a world that feared and hated them”. The focus was made on the heroic attitude: ”our life is not easy, people don’t make it easy for us and still, we think about others, everybody, good or bad. We don’t make judgement”. It has shifted to “the world fears and hates us”. It’s about them now and only them.
[QUOTE=Grunty;5468698]
It also makes some of Xavier's words from one of these pages posted somewhat problematic in my opinion:
Xavier: "They've murdered so many of us, the world has grown used to it." "This is just... how things are for... those people. Mutants."
Excuse me, but isn't that how things are for many humans since the dawn of mankind?
Does Xavier really believe normal humans aren't suffering just as much if not more on a much grander scale than mutants? Is he ignoring all the people persecuted for their appearance, sexuality or culture? [/QUOTE]
It’s so out of character for Xavier, it has never been his belief. It just comes out of the blue. A change so radical without an explanation…
I don't think Xavier is under the impression that others aren't suffering for who they are. But nobody in the Marvel universe prioritizes mutants to the point where they pretty much have to look out for themselves. The response to the mutants carving out their one corner in the world was for ORCHIS to reactivate some murder bots and keep on that path when Mother Mold went into instant "KILL ALL THE MONKEYS" mode as soon as she woke up.
The mutants prioritizing themselves when nobody else will, at least while they try to get their own shit together before they can worry about anyone else, is sensible.
Xavier has even said he hasn't given up on the dream, but he isn't going to be a naive martyr anymore either.
I think its problematic for people to judge and criticize any minority group for prioritizing helping the group they belong to. If Xavier wants to focus his efforts on helping his persecuted people, why is that an issue or problem for anyone? He isnt doing it at the expense of anyone. Its not like he's taking away from non-mutants or persecuting, conquering and/or killing them in order to elevate mutants
I think the X-men are able to do now more than they did as full time superheros, they can address different situations and not only what a regular super hero would need to deal with on a daily basis and that´s something that can be explored during this era. Now they don´t only fight bad guys, they can give refuge, give medicine for almost any sickness, they can help on the local level which leaves a better impression than fighting sentinels and leaving behind all the rubble for someone else to pick up. I think we only need to see a little more of this.
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