What do you think of Hickmans X-Men so far, still Interested or Not ??

[QUOTE=Brian B;5528957]I just thought about something else good about the HiXmen.

There is NOTHING else happening even half as interesting in any of the other Marvel Comics titles as is happening in the X titles right now. The X-Men are IT, right now. They are top dog at Marvel Comics, no matter the sales numbers. I think the only reason some of the X titles may not be selling better is the sheer number of them, splitting up the readership a bit. If Marvel wants to sell more X books, they may need to slim down the line.[/QUOTE]

I was just getting tired of the same old stories being told. The reason i fell in love with xmen was there was always something unexpected happening. I feel hickman has captured that and more. There are flaws i could get hung up on but honestly even the books i am not crazy about have things that are going on that i find interesting. The last few runs were just so incredibly dull for me. Plus, they have xmen legacy going so i feel people who dont like hickman run can just read that. If they dont like either than maybe just give it a couple years and come back to it. Its not like we are all going to enjoy every run all the time.

[QUOTE=Brian B;5528957]I just thought about something else good about the HiXmen.

There is NOTHING else happening even half as interesting in any of the other Marvel Comics titles as is happening in the X titles right now. The X-Men are IT, right now. They are top dog at Marvel Comics, no matter the sales numbers. I think the only reason some of the X titles may not be selling better is the sheer number of them, splitting up the readership a bit. If Marvel wants to sell more X books, they may need to slim down the line.

With Marvel owning the X IP lock, stock and barrel, again, including movie rights, the dark days of Ike Perlmutter and his Inhumans are behind us.[/QUOTE]

Less Books doesnt mean more people will buy them. I think that having a strong flagship, would bring stronger sales.
I think tha majority of books not being that interesting is a bigger factor.

Well it is subjective. I'm liking heroes reborn, Thor, Iron Fist, Venom, daredevil are doing.

[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5528887]This sort of thinking goes against the very grain of storytelling. We are only given the information that is relevant to the story. As readers, we are not meant to know every detail of every facet of every character. The story serves as the means to which we are introduced to these things and we are able to extrapolate what the rest could possibly mean. This is true with any story. What makes comics different is that there is continuity involved along with writers and other artists changing hands every so often. To strictly say, this person would never, under any circumstance, do this thing... is a detriment to the character and any writer who comes after. Not only this, but you are also speaking subjectively. I could argue that it was always leading to this. We would both be wrong. It is a matter of perspective and in this instance, it was the perspective of hickman on how he thought their relationship should evolve. It is fine if you or others do not like it. I am positive he had that in mind when he decided on going there with it. But to say that it is in the realm of impossibility is pretentious, at best.[/QUOTE]

Well...exactatiously.

[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5528969]I was just getting tired of the same old stories being told. The reason i fell in love with xmen was there was always something unexpected happening. I feel hickman has captured that and more. There are flaws i could get hung up on but honestly even the books i am not crazy about have things that are going on that i find interesting. The last few runs were just so incredibly dull for me. Plus, they have xmen legacy going so i feel people who dont like hickman run can just read that. If they dont like either than maybe just give it a couple years and come back to it. Its not like we are all going to enjoy every run all the time.[/QUOTE]

And more truths...you is on fiyah there, Cane_D.

[QUOTE=Devaishwarya;5529178]And more truths...you is on fiyah there, Cane_D.[/QUOTE]

Thnx! Glad to know some people out there enjoy the current xmen as much as me!

[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5529277]Thnx! Glad to know some people out there enjoy the current xmen as much as me![/QUOTE]

I really think y'all are in the majority, in these forums at least.

[QUOTE=Rang10;5529006]Less Books doesnt mean more people will buy them. I think that having a strong flagship, would bring stronger sales.
I think tha majority of books not being that interesting is a bigger factor.

Well it is subjective. I'm liking heroes reborn, Thor, Iron Fist, Venom, daredevil are doing.[/QUOTE]

Less books would mean more sales per book generally, I agree.

I think Heroes Reborn is an interesting idea, it's just too bad that Marvel won't cool it with the events (making [I]this/I] event feel superfluous) and that Jason Aaron is writing it. Daredevil seems good, not sure about the rest.

[QUOTE=Brian B;5528957]I just thought about something else good about the HiXmen.

There is NOTHING else happening even half as interesting in any of the other Marvel Comics titles as is happening in the X titles right now. The X-Men are IT, right now. They are top dog at Marvel Comics, no matter the sales numbers. I think the only reason some of the X titles may not be selling better is the sheer number of them, splitting up the readership a bit. If Marvel wants to sell more X books, they may need to slim down the line.

With Marvel owning the X IP lock, stock and barrel, again, including movie rights, the dark days of Ike Perlmutter and his Inhumans are behind us.[/QUOTE]

This is true, I can fully acknowledge this even if I don't like where the X-Books are at right now.

The less books = better sales on the remaining books has never been a particularly accurate metric in that there's no real way to tell if one books performance is hurting others. Too many books can sometimes burn out, sure, but that's usually also involving creative issues.

[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5529382]The less books = better sales on the remaining books has never been a particularly accurate metric in that there's no real way to tell if one books performance is hurting others. Too many books can sometimes burn out, sure, but that's usually also involving creative issues.[/QUOTE]

Having too many can make harder to decide what to read, but having a flagship is the starting point. Everyone that want to get into x-men world gonna try x-men and/or uncanny x-men.
They are the primer books. What happened is that x-men under Hickman hasn't been very engaging.

[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5529277]Thnx! Glad to know some people out there enjoy the current xmen as much as me![/QUOTE]

Yupp.
There are more of us in here and elsewhere...it's just that we are usually drowned out by the pervasive and constant negativity.

Not sure if this is the right place for this but I thought it fit better here than starting a new thread!

I'm in the middle of a re-read of the Hickman era to date. After my initial read-through - I trailed off sometime during [I]X of Swords[/I] - I was a bit disappointed. However, I see a lot of excitement online and there were aspects of the new status quo that I really loved; plus, I've enjoyed a lot of Hickman's work before. I thought it was worth giving it another shot and so far, I actually feel more positive about it than I did initially. I decided not to bother with the titles I really didn't get along with the first time around, namely [I]Excalibur[/I], [I]New Mutants[/I], [I]Fallen Angels[/I], and [I]Cable[/I]. I never tried [I]Wolverine[/I], [I]Hellions[/I], [I]X-Factor[/I] [I]Way of X[/I] or [I]SWORD[/I] so I'll give them a go when I reach that point but right now I'm basing this on [I]House of X[/I], [I]Powers of X[/I], [I]X-Men[/I] #1-7, [I]Marauders[/I] #1-7, [I]X-Force[/I] #1-7, [I]X-Men/Fantastic Four[/I], [I]Giant-Size X-Men: Nightcrawler[/I], and [I]Giant-Size X-Men: Jean Grey and Emma Frost[/I].

The things I enjoy:

[LIST][*]Regardless of your feelings about Hickman's run, it can't be denied that it's a truly fresh and innovative approach to the franchise.[*]I think House of X and Powers of X are awesome introductions to the new direction. They're some of the best X-comics that have been released in a while.[*]The expansive cast and writers that aren't afraid to lean on and develop more obscure characters. This stretches to the villains too - I'm glad to see the Children of the Vault back in play. I love the original arc where they're introduced and fight Rogue's ragtag squad.[*]The imaginative uses/developments of powers, Krakoan organic technology and the mutant social structure.[*]The variety of titles that are available. While they're not all my cup of tea, it's great to see the line as a whole thriving and so many teams and concepts being in play.[*]The (albeit too few) moments where characters question the complex morality of new aspects of mutant society, such as the resurrection protocols and the Crucible.[/LIST]
Unfortunately, there are still a few elements that hinder my enjoyment.

I think the main thing is that I just don't get why most of the characters are acting the way they are when it comes to the fundamentals of Krakoa. I've seen earlier comments in this thread about how we shouldn't presume to know what every character would do in every situation and I agree, but where they are acting in ways contrary to how we expect them to based on years of previous reading, aren't we owed some sort of explanation? Isn't it forgiving lazy or overly plot-focused writing to simply excuse this?

For example, why did no one express any significant concerns about the amnesty? Why does Storm continue to have a problem with Emma Frost in the early issues of [I]Marauders[/I] when she seems fairly happy to sit on the Quiet Council alongside the likes of Apocalypse and Sinister? Why is Jean so willing to adopt violent tactics in [I]X-Force[/I] (something that isn't limited to her - see Storm stabbing an enemy in the eye right off the bat in [I]Marauders[/I]? Are we really expected to believe that Scott and Jean would have an open relationship - something that just feels like self-indulgent fan fiction to me? Why are Kate and Emma suddenly best buddies (and on a side note, did Kate's dialogue as she was drowned by Sebastian Shaw really sound like something she would say)?

None of our supposed heroes seem to have that much concern about the segregationist, potentially xenophobic/supremacist views that are seemingly becoming entrenched in Krakoan society. And when they're challenged on this - such as by Sue Storm in [I]X-Men/Fantastic Four[/I] - they don't seem to have a good answer. The reason for this is because the writers seem to just use the characters as plot devices at pivotal moments. They need someone to belittle and antagonise the Fantastic Four so sure, Cyclops can do that. They need someone to make a morally grey decision to raise the stakes so sure, Beast can basically become a villain. They need a sassy voice on the Quiet Council so sure, Sinister can become a caricature.

I'm not necessarily opposed to the 'whats' here...I just feel like we've skipped over the 'whys'.

I find myself having to ignore these things to continue enjoying a lot of what I'm reading, which is easier to do when the story is solid...but too often things in the main title are too meandering. I also don't really have any interest in Arakko. I understand that Hickman can't just launch straight into the interesting stuff with Destiny, Mystique and Moira - but sometimes it feels like these threads have been forgotten completely, and worse, like they have been replaced with less interesting stories.

There's enough I'm enjoying and enough promise for me to carry on for now, at least to revisit X of Swords. I just hope we start seeing some reasons behind all of this strange behaviour soon.

[QUOTE=Agent Grayson;5530212]Not sure if this is the right place for this but I thought it fit better here than starting a new thread!

I'm in the middle of a re-read of the Hickman era to date. After my initial read-through - I trailed off sometime during [I]X of Swords[/I] - I was a bit disappointed. However, I see a lot of excitement online and there were aspects of the new status quo that I really loved; plus, I've enjoyed a lot of Hickman's work before. I thought it was worth giving it another shot and so far, I actually feel more positive about it than I did initially. I decided not to bother with the titles I really didn't get along with the first time around, namely [I]Excalibur[/I], [I]New Mutants[/I], [I]Fallen Angels[/I], and [I]Cable[/I]. I never tried [I]Wolverine[/I], [I]Hellions[/I], [I]X-Factor[/I] [I]Way of X[/I] or [I]SWORD[/I] so I'll give them a go when I reach that point but right now I'm basing this on [I]House of X[/I], [I]Powers of X[/I], [I]X-Men[/I] #1-7, [I]Marauders[/I] #1-7, [I]X-Force[/I] #1-7, [I]X-Men/Fantastic Four[/I], [I]Giant-Size X-Men: Nightcrawler[/I], and [I]Giant-Size X-Men: Jean Grey and Emma Frost[/I].

The things I enjoy:

[LIST][*]Regardless of your feelings about Hickman's run, it can't be denied that it's a truly fresh and innovative approach to the franchise.[*]I think House of X and Powers of X are awesome introductions to the new direction. They're some of the best X-comics that have been released in a while.[*]The expansive cast and writers that aren't afraid to lean on and develop more obscure characters. This stretches to the villains too - I'm glad to see the Children of the Vault back in play. I love the original arc where they're introduced and fight Rogue's ragtag squad.[*]The imaginative uses/developments of powers, Krakoan organic technology and the mutant social structure.[*]The variety of titles that are available. While they're not all my cup of tea, it's great to see the line as a whole thriving and so many teams and concepts being in play.[*]The (albeit too few) moments where characters question the complex morality of new aspects of mutant society, such as the resurrection protocols and the Crucible.[/LIST]
Unfortunately, there are still a few elements that hinder my enjoyment.

I think the main thing is that I just don't get why most of the characters are acting the way they are when it comes to the fundamentals of Krakoa. I've seen earlier comments in this thread about how we shouldn't presume to know what every character would do in every situation and I agree, but where they are acting in ways contrary to how we expect them to based on years of previous reading, aren't we owed some sort of explanation? Isn't it forgiving lazy or overly plot-focused writing to simply excuse this?

For example, why did no one express any significant concerns about the amnesty? Why does Storm continue to have a problem with Emma Frost in the early issues of [I]Marauders[/I] when she seems fairly happy to sit on the Quiet Council alongside the likes of Apocalypse and Sinister? Why is Jean so willing to adopt violent tactics in [I]X-Force[/I] (something that isn't limited to her - see Storm stabbing an enemy in the eye right off the bat in [I]Marauders[/I]? Are we really expected to believe that Scott and Jean would have an open relationship - something that just feels like self-indulgent fan fiction to me? Why are Kate and Emma suddenly best buddies (and on a side note, did Kate's dialogue as she was drowned by Sebastian Shaw really sound like something she would say)?

None of our supposed heroes seem to have that much concern about the segregationist, potentially xenophobic/supremacist views that are seemingly becoming entrenched in Krakoan society. And when they're challenged on this - such as by Sue Storm in [I]X-Men/Fantastic Four[/I] - they don't seem to have a good answer. The reason for this is because the writers seem to just use the characters as plot devices at pivotal moments. They need someone to belittle and antagonise the Fantastic Four so sure, Cyclops can do that. They need someone to make a morally grey decision to raise the stakes so sure, Beast can basically become a villain. They need a sassy voice on the Quiet Council so sure, Sinister can become a caricature.

I'm not necessarily opposed to the 'whats' here...I just feel like we've skipped over the 'whys'.

I find myself having to ignore these things to continue enjoying a lot of what I'm reading, which is easier to do when the story is solid...but too often things in the main title are too meandering. I also don't really have any interest in Arakko. I understand that Hickman can't just launch straight into the interesting stuff with Destiny, Mystique and Moira - but sometimes it feels like these threads have been forgotten completely, and worse, like they have been replaced with less interesting stories.

There's enough I'm enjoying and enough promise for me to carry on for now, at least to revisit X of Swords. I just hope we start seeing some reasons behind all of this strange behaviour soon.[/QUOTE]

This is a fantastic post, exactly where it belongs. I'm gonna reread what I've got as well, and I feel I'll come away largely with similar opinions to yours, both on the positives and negatives. Every single one of your criticisms is well thought-out and I can't think of any justification.

[QUOTE=Agent Grayson;5530212]Not sure if this is the right place for this but I thought it fit better here than starting a new thread!

I'm in the middle of a re-read of the Hickman era to date. After my initial read-through - I trailed off sometime during [I]X of Swords[/I] - I was a bit disappointed. However, I see a lot of excitement online and there were aspects of the new status quo that I really loved; plus, I've enjoyed a lot of Hickman's work before. I thought it was worth giving it another shot and so far, I actually feel more positive about it than I did initially. I decided not to bother with the titles I really didn't get along with the first time around, namely [I]Excalibur[/I], [I]New Mutants[/I], [I]Fallen Angels[/I], and [I]Cable[/I]. I never tried [I]Wolverine[/I], [I]Hellions[/I], [I]X-Factor[/I] [I]Way of X[/I] or [I]SWORD[/I] so I'll give them a go when I reach that point but right now I'm basing this on [I]House of X[/I], [I]Powers of X[/I], [I]X-Men[/I] #1-7, [I]Marauders[/I] #1-7, [I]X-Force[/I] #1-7, [I]X-Men/Fantastic Four[/I], [I]Giant-Size X-Men: Nightcrawler[/I], and [I]Giant-Size X-Men: Jean Grey and Emma Frost[/I].

The things I enjoy:

[LIST][*]Regardless of your feelings about Hickman's run, it can't be denied that it's a truly fresh and innovative approach to the franchise.[*]I think House of X and Powers of X are awesome introductions to the new direction. They're some of the best X-comics that have been released in a while.[*]The expansive cast and writers that aren't afraid to lean on and develop more obscure characters. This stretches to the villains too - I'm glad to see the Children of the Vault back in play. I love the original arc where they're introduced and fight Rogue's ragtag squad.[*]The imaginative uses/developments of powers, Krakoan organic technology and the mutant social structure.[*]The variety of titles that are available. While they're not all my cup of tea, it's great to see the line as a whole thriving and so many teams and concepts being in play.[*]The (albeit too few) moments where characters question the complex morality of new aspects of mutant society, such as the resurrection protocols and the Crucible.[/LIST]
Unfortunately, there are still a few elements that hinder my enjoyment.

I think the main thing is that I just don't get why most of the characters are acting the way they are when it comes to the fundamentals of Krakoa. I've seen earlier comments in this thread about how we shouldn't presume to know what every character would do in every situation and I agree, but where they are acting in ways contrary to how we expect them to based on years of previous reading, aren't we owed some sort of explanation? Isn't it forgiving lazy or overly plot-focused writing to simply excuse this?

For example, why did no one express any significant concerns about the amnesty? Why does Storm continue to have a problem with Emma Frost in the early issues of [I]Marauders[/I] when she seems fairly happy to sit on the Quiet Council alongside the likes of Apocalypse and Sinister? Why is Jean so willing to adopt violent tactics in [I]X-Force[/I] (something that isn't limited to her - see Storm stabbing an enemy in the eye right off the bat in [I]Marauders[/I]? Are we really expected to believe that Scott and Jean would have an open relationship - something that just feels like self-indulgent fan fiction to me? Why are Kate and Emma suddenly best buddies (and on a side note, did Kate's dialogue as she was drowned by Sebastian Shaw really sound like something she would say)?

None of our supposed heroes seem to have that much concern about the segregationist, potentially xenophobic/supremacist views that are seemingly becoming entrenched in Krakoan society. And when they're challenged on this - such as by Sue Storm in [I]X-Men/Fantastic Four[/I] - they don't seem to have a good answer. The reason for this is because the writers seem to just use the characters as plot devices at pivotal moments. They need someone to belittle and antagonise the Fantastic Four so sure, Cyclops can do that. They need someone to make a morally grey decision to raise the stakes so sure, Beast can basically become a villain. They need a sassy voice on the Quiet Council so sure, Sinister can become a caricature.

I'm not necessarily opposed to the 'whats' here...I just feel like we've skipped over the 'whys'.

I find myself having to ignore these things to continue enjoying a lot of what I'm reading, which is easier to do when the story is solid...but too often things in the main title are too meandering. I also don't really have any interest in Arakko. I understand that Hickman can't just launch straight into the interesting stuff with Destiny, Mystique and Moira - but sometimes it feels like these threads have been forgotten completely, and worse, like they have been replaced with less interesting stories.

There's enough I'm enjoying and enough promise for me to carry on for now, at least to revisit X of Swords. I just hope we start seeing some reasons behind all of this strange behaviour soon.[/QUOTE]

I feel dawn of x is just introducing all of these concepts and seems to me like reign of x is more about how it effects the different characters.

[QUOTE=Agent Grayson;5530212]Not sure if this is the right place for this but I thought it fit better here than starting a new thread![/QUOTE]

I agree with almost everything you wrote. I felt excitement at first, but now I am mostly bored with the overall story. I couldn’t care less about Arakko, I want to know what Moira is up to, and I am also invested in the Mystique/Destiny storyline.
I like several of the other X-titles (I think you will love SWORD!), but the main title is quite boring. I like several of Hickman’s concepts, even though I feel most would fit better in Avengers or Fantastic Four, but his actual stories are not told in a way I find interesting.
But what puts me off most are the potentially xenophobic/supremacist views of several of the mutants on Krakoa. They feel like a cult. Even worse: a xenophobic cult. That bothers me a lot.

I wouldn’t agree that he uses powers in imaginative ways - under his pen, telepathy has become an advanced phone.

I think Morrison’s run is more interesting and modern and has more interesting concepts.

What I do love: Hickman has made the X-books into comic books that matter again. And for that I am forever grateful.

[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5530283]I feel dawn of x is just introducing all of these concepts and seems to me like reign of x is more about how it effects the different characters.[/QUOTE]

...and Fall of X will be the endgame.
It's the lack of patience that seems to have a lot of readers disappointed. The story clearly wasn't meant to be resolved in a matter of months...that's not how HX-Man writes...even moreso now that he's directing the entire Epic. Their loss. Or not. Whatever.

[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5528969]I was just getting tired of the same old stories being told. The reason i fell in love with xmen was there was always something unexpected happening. I feel hickman has captured that and more. There are flaws i could get hung up on but honestly even the books i am not crazy about have things that are going on that i find interesting. The last few runs were just so incredibly dull for me. Plus, they have xmen legacy going so i feel people who dont like hickman run can just read that. If they dont like either than maybe just give it a couple years and come back to it. Its not like we are all going to enjoy every run all the time.[/QUOTE]

X-men Legends is a good start but I would also like an X-Men forever 3 and X-Men Season 2 too. This new era could offer something for everyone if they really wanted to push this Moira story to the max.

[QUOTE=Devaishwarya;5530363]...and Fall of X will be the endgame.
It's the lack of patience that seems to have a lot of readers disappointed. The story clearly wasn't meant to be resolved in a matter of months...that's not how HX-Man writes...even moreso now that he's directing the entire direction. Their loss. Or not. Whatever.[/QUOTE]
After Hickman the X-Men are going back to the mansion, because obv can’t actually allow anything to ever change post-Claremont. The twist will be that everyone has their own mansion - Nightcrawler will have a blue one, Colossus a silver one, et cetera.

[QUOTE=Frobisher;5530400]After Hickman the X-Men are going back to the mansion, because obv can’t actually allow anything to ever change post-Claremont. The twist will be that everyone has their own mansion - Nightcrawler will have a blue one, Colossus a silver one, et cetera.[/QUOTE]

X of Mansions: who will win to be the true mansion

Even if they do go back to the Mansion...it would not take anything away from what we're reading now. And more than likely the new writer after HiX-Man could come in and put his own interesting and engaging spin on that original status quo...or not. Nobody knows. Besides, that is a ways off and I prefer to be fully engaged in the present, not living for past glories or longing for a brighter future.

[QUOTE=Rang10;5530434]X of Mansions: who will win to be the true mansion[/QUOTE]

Okay, this is pretty funny.

[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5530283]I feel dawn of x is just introducing all of these concepts and seems to me like reign of x is more about how it effects the different characters.[/QUOTE]

The "Dawn" lasted too long.

[QUOTE=Devaishwarya;5530363]...and Fall of X will be the endgame.
It's the lack of patience that seems to have a lot of readers disappointed. The story clearly wasn't meant to be resolved in a matter of months...that's not how HX-Man writes...even moreso now that he's directing the entire Epic. Their loss. Or not. Whatever.[/QUOTE]

We don't need to hurry to the end, but the beginning and middle should be interesting in their own way. I don't think there's a lack of patience at all, there's been so little momentum it's kinda funny.

It's faulty thinking that anyone who has problems with the pacing wants the narrative resolved in a matter of months, really we just want actual interesting plots and some forwards progression beyond reminding the reader that there are things still happening behind the scenes.

[QUOTE=Devaishwarya;5530363]It's the lack of patience that seems to have a lot of readers disappointed. The story clearly wasn't meant to be resolved in a matter of months...that's not how HX-Man writes...even moreso now that he's directing the entire Epic. Their loss. Or not. Whatever.[/QUOTE]

I love stories that aren’t resolved at once. But I want to be entertained on the way to the resolution. Hickman fails to entertain me. I am entertained by Hellions, X-Factor, Marauders and X-Force. I love SWORD, and I was really impressed by Way of X. I am mostly bored by Hickman’s X-Men.

Hickman’s concepts intrigue me, but to me his characterization falls flat. The characters feel more like chess pieces, Hickman fails to make me care about them.

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5530454]The "Dawn" lasted too long.[/quote]

These 'reign" "dawn" are so ill defined where it starts and where it ends.

[quote]
We don't need to hurry to the end, but the beginning and middle should be interesting in their own way. I don't think there's a lack of patience at all, there's been so little momentum it's kinda funny.

It's faulty thinking that anyone who has problems with the pacing wants the narrative resolved in a matter of months, really we just want actual interesting plots and some forwards progression beyond reminding the reader that there are things still happening behind the scenes.[/QUOTE]

We need to get some food between the main meals. There is enough story to work out instead of just loose one shots. Very little profress was done

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5530254]This is a fantastic post, exactly where it belongs. I'm gonna reread what I've got as well, and I feel I'll come away largely with similar opinions to yours, both on the positives and negatives. Every single one of your criticisms is well thought-out and I can't think of any justification.[/QUOTE]

Thanks - I'll be interested to see how you feel about everything after your re-read! Despite my criticisms, I did enjoy it more the second time around.

[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5530283]I feel dawn of x is just introducing all of these concepts and seems to me like reign of x is more about how it effects the different characters.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Devaishwarya;5530363]...and Fall of X will be the endgame.
It's the lack of patience that seems to have a lot of readers disappointed. The story clearly wasn't meant to be resolved in a matter of months...that's not how HX-Man writes...even moreso now that he's directing the entire direction. Their loss. Or not. Whatever.[/QUOTE]

I know Hickman uses long-form story-telling and I've enjoyed a lot of his work in the past - including his runs on Avengers and Fantastic Four/Future Foundation. I can't speak for everyone but it's not a matter of patience for me; I don't mind a slower pace or an overarching story that takes time to develop, but I don't think that is an excuse for characters' actions to simply not make any sense or for much of the storytelling in the meantime to feel lacklustre (in my opinion). Impatience doesn't really account for any of the criticisms I listed. I can't reconcile the fact that we haven't spent any time looking at, for instance, why/how Archangel is okay with Apocalypse being pardoned for all his crimes but we did spend an issue reading about geriatric botanist terrorists who have never been mentioned again.

If Reign of X does bring with it a more defined character focus that fills in some of these gaps, that's great - it'll still be a bit late for me as we've been asked to buy into so much already, but better late than never.

[QUOTE=johnnysv75;5530318]I agree with almost everything you wrote. I felt excitement at first, but now I am mostly bored with the overall story. I couldn’t care less about Arakko, I want to know what Moira is up to, and I am also invested in the Mystique/Destiny storyline.
I like several of the other X-titles (I think you will love SWORD!), but the main title is quite boring. I like several of Hickman’s concepts, even though I feel most would fit better in Avengers or Fantastic Four, but his actual stories are not told in a way I find interesting.
But what puts me off most are the potentially xenophobic/supremacist views of several of the mutants on Krakoa. They feel like a cult. Even worse: a xenophobic cult. That bothers me a lot.

I wouldn’t agree that he uses powers in imaginative ways - under his pen, telepathy has become an advanced phone.

I think Morrison’s run is more interesting and modern and has more interesting concepts.

What I do love: Hickman has made the X-books into comic books that matter again. And for that I am forever grateful.[/QUOTE]

I agree, the supremacy/cult vibes are very concerning. The first resurrection scene in [I]House of X[/I] is one of the few parts I don't enjoy, and the undertones certainly become more pronounced as things roll on. As I said in my earlier post though, I completely agree that it's great that the X-books matter again and that there's such a diverse line available!

[QUOTE=johnnysv75;5530456]I love stories that aren’t resolved at once. But I want to be entertained on the way to the resolution. Hickman fails to entertain me. I am entertained by Hellions, X-Factor, Marauders and X-Force. I love SWORD, and I was really impressed by Way of X. I am mostly bored by Hickman’s X-Men.

Hickman’s concepts intrigue me, but to me his characterization falls flat. The characters feel more like chess pieces, Hickman fails to make me care about them.[/QUOTE]

Then...It's a good thing you and others like yourself who have issues with HiX-Man's writing have many other books by other writers to enjoy.

[QUOTE=Agent Grayson;5530212]Not sure if this is the right place for this but I thought it fit better here than starting a new thread!

I'm in the middle of a re-read of the Hickman era to date. After my initial read-through - I trailed off sometime during [I]X of Swords[/I] - I was a bit disappointed. However, I see a lot of excitement online and there were aspects of the new status quo that I really loved; plus, I've enjoyed a lot of Hickman's work before. I thought it was worth giving it another shot and so far, I actually feel more positive about it than I did initially. I decided not to bother with the titles I really didn't get along with the first time around, namely [I]Excalibur[/I], [I]New Mutants[/I], [I]Fallen Angels[/I], and [I]Cable[/I]. I never tried [I]Wolverine[/I], [I]Hellions[/I], [I]X-Factor[/I] [I]Way of X[/I] or [I]SWORD[/I] so I'll give them a go when I reach that point but right now I'm basing this on [I]House of X[/I], [I]Powers of X[/I], [I]X-Men[/I] #1-7, [I]Marauders[/I] #1-7, [I]X-Force[/I] #1-7, [I]X-Men/Fantastic Four[/I], [I]Giant-Size X-Men: Nightcrawler[/I], and [I]Giant-Size X-Men: Jean Grey and Emma Frost[/I].

The things I enjoy:

[LIST][*]Regardless of your feelings about Hickman's run, it can't be denied that it's a truly fresh and innovative approach to the franchise.[*]I think House of X and Powers of X are awesome introductions to the new direction. They're some of the best X-comics that have been released in a while.[*]The expansive cast and writers that aren't afraid to lean on and develop more obscure characters. This stretches to the villains too - I'm glad to see the Children of the Vault back in play. I love the original arc where they're introduced and fight Rogue's ragtag squad.[*]The imaginative uses/developments of powers, Krakoan organic technology and the mutant social structure.[*]The variety of titles that are available. While they're not all my cup of tea, it's great to see the line as a whole thriving and so many teams and concepts being in play.[*]The (albeit too few) moments where characters question the complex morality of new aspects of mutant society, such as the resurrection protocols and the Crucible.[/LIST]
Unfortunately, there are still a few elements that hinder my enjoyment.

I think the main thing is that I just don't get why most of the characters are acting the way they are when it comes to the fundamentals of Krakoa. I've seen earlier comments in this thread about how we shouldn't presume to know what every character would do in every situation and I agree, but where they are acting in ways contrary to how we expect them to based on years of previous reading, aren't we owed some sort of explanation? Isn't it forgiving lazy or overly plot-focused writing to simply excuse this?

For example, why did no one express any significant concerns about the amnesty? Why does Storm continue to have a problem with Emma Frost in the early issues of [I]Marauders[/I] when she seems fairly happy to sit on the Quiet Council alongside the likes of Apocalypse and Sinister? Why is Jean so willing to adopt violent tactics in [I]X-Force[/I] (something that isn't limited to her - see Storm stabbing an enemy in the eye right off the bat in [I]Marauders[/I]? Are we really expected to believe that Scott and Jean would have an open relationship - something that just feels like self-indulgent fan fiction to me? Why are Kate and Emma suddenly best buddies (and on a side note, did Kate's dialogue as she was drowned by Sebastian Shaw really sound like something she would say)?

None of our supposed heroes seem to have that much concern about the segregationist, potentially xenophobic/supremacist views that are seemingly becoming entrenched in Krakoan society. And when they're challenged on this - such as by Sue Storm in [I]X-Men/Fantastic Four[/I] - they don't seem to have a good answer. The reason for this is because the writers seem to just use the characters as plot devices at pivotal moments. They need someone to belittle and antagonise the Fantastic Four so sure, Cyclops can do that. They need someone to make a morally grey decision to raise the stakes so sure, Beast can basically become a villain. They need a sassy voice on the Quiet Council so sure, Sinister can become a caricature.

I'm not necessarily opposed to the 'whats' here...[B]I just feel like we've skipped over the 'whys'.[/B]

I find myself having to ignore these things to continue enjoying a lot of what I'm reading, which is easier to do when the story is solid...but too often things in the main title are too meandering. I also don't really have any interest in Arakko. I understand that Hickman can't just launch straight into the interesting stuff with Destiny, Mystique and Moira - but sometimes it feels like these threads have been forgotten completely, and worse, like they have been replaced with less interesting stories.

There's enough I'm enjoying and enough promise for me to carry on for now, at least to revisit X of Swords. I just hope we start seeing some reasons behind all of this strange behaviour soon.[/QUOTE]

Don't agree with everything and I'm a HUGE fan of some of the books you haven't tried out yet, but this was a very fun breakdown to read. Your criticisms completely make sense (see the point that I bolded because I FELT that) and nowhere throughout your analysis did you try to rain on the parade of people who are fully enjoying themselves (which is very appreciated).

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5530454]The "Dawn" lasted too long.



We don't need to hurry to the end, but the beginning and middle should be interesting in their own way. I don't think there's a lack of patience at all, there's been so little momentum it's kinda funny.

It's faulty thinking that anyone who has problems with the pacing wants the narrative resolved in a matter of months, [B]really we just want actual interesting plots and some forwards progression [/B]beyond reminding the reader that there are things still happening behind the scenes.[/QUOTE]

That's exactly what I'm getting...in the books I'm reading. And even in the ones I'm not. If that's not how you and others see it well...

I don't think any of us who are thoroughly enjoying this run are completely blind to the many faults across the line...like some of the "Whys"...but it's more that I (we) choose to focus on the positives which for me far outway the negatives. I find appreciation in what it is...not what it was, nor what I think it could be, as both those options are irrelevant.

I agree with Agent Grayson, we know the how but we also need to know the whys, I think we are in the middle of the story and we will know in time how this began and why the X-men decided to change so much of their long held beliefs.

[QUOTE=Devaishwarya;5530581]Then...It's a good thing you and others like yourself who have issues with HiX-Man's writing have many other books by other writers to enjoy.[/QUOTE]

Yes, it is. I am just answering the question in this thread, if I am still interested in Hickman’s X-Men or not. :)

I think he has great concepts and I am grateful that the X-books matter again, I just wish I liked his writing more.

I think Hickman´s writting during Dawn of X focused on developing plot points that would be explored later by him or the other X-writers but now that the main characteristics of Krakoa are in place and the X-teams developed, he can now focus more on the character work because I get the sense we are going to get conflict and hopefully more answers :)

[QUOTE=Lucyinthesky;5530636]I agree with Agent Grayson, we know the how but we also need to know the whys, I think we are in the middle of the story and we will know in time how this began and why the X-men decided to change so much of their long held beliefs.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, there's a lot of unanswered questions, and a lot of people acting wildly out of character, and I see that not as bad writing, but as a clue that something is very, very wrong.

Stuff like Jay Guthrie, who hated being a mutant so much that he cut off his own wings, refused to use his own healing powers to regrow them, and violently rejected attempts by folk like Elixir to heal them, and joined a mutant-hating cult that murdered a bunch of his friends (and then him), is back, and not only does *he* seem fine with being back (and winged and surrounded by fellow mutants), the people who *died because of him* seem to be fine with him being back, like it never happened! Same with the Cuckoo sisters, seen all together, even if one of them straight up attempted to murder the others. It's like everyone's past has been sort of washed away and they are all just going along with this Krakoa experiment, at the expense of forgetting their own personal pasts.

And I assume that's all quite deliberate, and that, as Way of X says, 'something is rotten in the state of Krakoa.' I'm enjoying the ride, even if I'm aware of the bumps in the road, and can see the drop-off ahead.

In Way of X and X-force there´s the plot point there´s something that is being fogotten between ressurections that will be important in the next issues. There´s also the fact most antagonist were accepted so I can see why they would forgive Jay and after that experience I can see him feeling regret over his actions but it would make sense for other characters to reference it sometimes like the morlocks and the marauders.

I have a theory about this: during Age of X-man, when the world believed most of the X-men were dead and started a perssecution worldwide of mutants in which almost all the students from the Academy were killed and blindfold commited suicide, I could see Charles, who just came back from the dead and if he already was in contact with Moira, he could do something totally different to get his X-men back and would of course push him to develop Krakoa with Moira´s help.

On Magneto´s solo title there´s a conversation between them where Magneto, after Axis, decides to honor Charles by helping develop the X-men at a time Wolverine, Charles and Cyclops were all dead while Xavier tries to tell him with an astral projection that he thought Erik had been right.

I am not sure if thsoe stories will be addressed but I think they bring the background for the creation of Krakoa.

[QUOTE=Sutekh;5530666]Yeah, there's a lot of unanswered questions, and a lot of people acting wildly out of character, and I see that not as bad writing, but as a clue that something is very, very wrong.

[b]Stuff like Jay Guthrie, who hated being a mutant so much that he cut off his own wings, refused to use his own healing powers to regrow them, and violently rejected attempts by folk like Elixir to heal them, and joined a mutant-hating cult that murdered a bunch of his friends (and then him), is back, and not only does *he* seem fine with being back (and winged and surrounded by fellow mutants), the people who *died because of him* seem to be fine with him being back, like it never happened! Same with the Cuckoo sisters, seen all together, even if one of them straight up attempted to murder the others. It's like everyone's past has been sort of washed away and they are all just going along with this Krakoa experiment, at the expense of forgetting their own personal pasts.[/b]

And I assume that's all quite deliberate, and that, as Way of X says, 'something is rotten in the state of Krakoa.' I'm enjoying the ride, even if I'm aware of the bumps in the road, and can see the drop-off ahead.[/QUOTE]

Xavier erased memories. That is the nly way to explain all of this. Ressurret the mutants but without some specific memories

[QUOTE=Lucyinthesky;5530714]In Way of X and X-force there´s the plot point there´s something that is being fogotten between ressurections that will be important in the next issues. There´s also the fact most antagonist were accepted so I can see why they would forgive Jay and after that experience I can see him feeling regret over his actions but it would make sense for other characters to reference it sometimes like the morlocks and the marauders.

I have a theory about this: during Age of X-man, when the world believed most of the X-men were dead and started a perssecution worldwide of mutants in which almost all the students from the Academy were killed and blindfold commited suicide, I could see Charles, who just came back from the dead and if he already was in contact with Moira, he could do something totally different to get his X-men back and would of course push him to develop Krakoa with Moira´s help.

On Magneto´s solo title there´s a conversation between them where Magneto, after Axis, decides to honor Charles by helping develop the X-men at a time Wolverine, Charles and Cyclops were all dead while Xavier tries to tell him with an astral projection that he thought Erik had been right.

I am not sure if thsoe stories will be addressed but I think they bring the background for the creation of Krakoa.[/QUOTE]

Xavier decided to do Krakoa on the past, he just decided now put the plan on motion.

[QUOTE=Rang10;5530724]Xavier erased memories. That is the nly way to explain all of this[/QUOTE]

Someone didn’t do his homework is another explanation…

[QUOTE=Zelena;5530730]Someone didn’t do his homework is another explanation…[/QUOTE]

AHAHA yes, it is a explanation on story for writers not caring about characters story.

I'm not convinced that writers think they are writing chaarcters out of character, they sees to be drinking the cool aid

There´s clearly a before Moira brought her changes to the timeline and after she made changes to the timeline, we could say there´s now two timelines, one in which Moira didn´t made her changes and the one in which she did made her changes but in both I could see Charles getting to a point in which he could consider krakoa as a possibility given his story and the way he DOESN´T deal with his personal problems, choosing instead to supress them.


Now I don´t think so Hickman likes to left thing unexplained until it´s neccesary to bring them in the open for the story, I don´t think it´s coincidence Charles is using cerebro all the time in a way that makes him very similar to ultimate evil Reed Richards, who became a villain, I don´t think it´s coincidence Way of X and X-force are dealing with the memory loss between ressurections, etc. Even Claremont Xavier had a darkside that was the result of him supresing his darker impulses for a long period of time, Onslaught was the result of one time he left himself out of check and I guess believing for a year that all the X-men and Magneto were dead and to see what happened to the rest of the school would be enough to push him over the edge again and let out his darker persona once again.


I think Krakoa itself as an idea is good enough, even neccesary, after wolrdwide perssecution of mutants who were left without a home but Hickman has made sure to let some clues that point to something not quite right with this world, even Magneto had some doubts about the ressurections process in the beggining of the story and I guess this is where the conflict will come during reing of X, especially now that we will have a main X-men team on New York, Krakoa and SWORD all with different leaderships.

[QUOTE=Devaishwarya;5530602]That's exactly what I'm getting...in the books I'm reading. And even in the ones I'm not. If that's not how you and others see it well...

I don't think any of us who are thoroughly enjoying this run are completely blind to the many faults across the line...like some of the "Whys"...but it's more that I (we) choose to focus on the positives which for me far outway the negatives. I find appreciation in what it is...not what it was, nor what I think it could be, as both those options are irrelevant.[/QUOTE]

I'm not talking about progression in individual B or C-Plots, I mean the main A-Plot. It's perfectly fine for those who enjoy their books to do so obviously, and I and others have been clear about that. By that same token, there's nothing wrong with those of us who aren't enjoying certain elements sharing those opinions to see if there are others who might agree. Those opinions aren't an attack on you or anyone else who is enjoying one or several books.

I would say that one can appreciate what is, but that what something was or could be is actually relevant in regards to providing criticism on a given work.

[QUOTE=Sutekh;5530666][B]Yeah, there's a lot of unanswered questions, and a lot of people acting wildly out of character, and I see that not as bad writing, but as a clue that something is very, very wrong.[/B]

Stuff like Jay Guthrie, who hated being a mutant so much that he cut off his own wings, refused to use his own healing powers to regrow them, and violently rejected attempts by folk like Elixir to heal them, and joined a mutant-hating cult that murdered a bunch of his friends (and then him), is back, and not only does *he* seem fine with being back (and winged and surrounded by fellow mutants), the people who *died because of him* seem to be fine with him being back, like it never happened! Same with the Cuckoo sisters, seen all together, even if one of them straight up attempted to murder the others. It's like everyone's past has been sort of washed away and they are all just going along with this Krakoa experiment, at the expense of forgetting their own personal pasts.

And I assume that's all quite deliberate, and that, as Way of X says, 'something is rotten in the state of Krakoa.' I'm enjoying the ride, even if I'm aware of the bumps in the road, and can see the drop-off ahead.[/QUOTE]

This point should be inoffensive and yet when I've brought it up or seen it brought up, there's push back, as if we should accept everything at face value. That the homogeneity of thought is fine and in-character and a natural outgrowth of the narrative.

Yeah, there's a book now that is solely focused on exploring this idea, but it's arrival seems poorly timed. Hopefully it succeeds in making sense of things.

[QUOTE=Rang10;5528837]Only if the clue is 10% of what a clue is. It's like I want proof and people offer me a crazy conspiracy theory that I have to imagine 90% of what isn't on page.[/QUOTE]

You're cute when you're stubborn.