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[QUOTE=Havok83;5468943]I think its problematic for people to judge and criticize any minority group for prioritizing helping the group they belong to. If Xavier wants to focus his efforts on helping his persecuted people, why is that an issue or problem for anyone? He isnt doing it at the expense of anyone. Its not like he's taking away from non-mutants or persecuting, conquering and/or killing them in order to elevate mutants[/QUOTE]
The greatest tragedies of our world came from divisions.
And now former heroes in a comic support them, consider them as normal…
It’s a paradigm shift.
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[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5468928]I don't think Xavier is under the impression that others aren't suffering for who they are. But nobody in the Marvel universe prioritizes mutants to the point where they pretty much have to look out for themselves. The response to the mutants carving out their one corner in the world was for ORCHIS to reactivate some murder bots and keep on that path when Mother Mold went into instant "KILL ALL THE MONKEYS" mode as soon as she woke up.[/QUOTE]
Good points.
But i still argue the narration can make it SOUNDS like he is very single minded on the victimhood of mutants to the point of appearing both ignorant to the suffering of other humans and to the crimes and murders commited by mutants.
Apcoalypse has caused untold suffering and countless deaths over the centuries in his believe to be right to do so and the X-men know of alternate universes and futures in which Apcoalypse succeeded and killed even more (Cable's future, AOA, etc.). Those aren't extreme circumstances. That's what Apocalypse does when he gets his chance and he does it with glee.
Yet Xavier isn't despairing over how many normal human deaths and suffering were caused at the hand of just this mutant alone. No he welcomes this mutant to Krakoa and brings him to an international summit where he openly declares he caused the bronze age collapse which again involved direct and indirect death of countless human lifes at his actions.
Not to forget all the other mutants who murdered and done worse to other humans without second thoughts. Welcomed to Krakoa. An act of realpolitik or to keep them secure on Krakoa i admit, but still just as guilty of creating suffering to everyone as much as unpowered humans caused to mutants.
But how many mutants have normal humans killed?
Until the destruction of Genosha, the largest massacre of mutants was that of the Morlocks. But it wasn't humans who did it, it were other mutants, at the command of a man who himself caused even more deaths of mutants via horrible experiments. Where is that man now? On the Council fo Krakoa. Invited by Xavier for his knowledge he gained via the suffering of mutants.
And Genosha itself? The biggest death toll of mutants in history? Who did that? A normal human? No an alien being directly related to Xavier himself.
And the next big moment of suffering described? The one million mutants losing their X-genes? Was that a normal human? No, it was a meta human, who at the time believed herself to be a mutant, because of the man who believed himself to be her father and tried to indoctrinate her on his "mutant above all else" ideology, which harmed her for years afterwards and was part of the madness which caused her to depower mutants. It wasn't anti-mutant ideology which caused Decimation, it was the mutant superiority ideology of Magneto. A man now standing side by side with Xavier and organizing his mutant nation.
Why is Xavier seemingly only blaming normal humans for the suffering of mutantkind, when both have suffered under the same outside and inside influences and mutants have harmed normal humans just as much if not more?
Not to say his reaction isn't understandable, but from an objective point this one sided perspective and blaming towards their situation seems partial ignorant to me.
I can also understand him blaming normal humans on a constant smaller scale harm towards mutants though. Because that's where the mutant metaphor still fits. Though it ignores aspects like micro-agression and positiv discrimination in favor of blunt scenes of direct images.
However in the context of what Hox/Pox eventualy revealed about Moira X it also makes sense for him to act this way in the overall story. She broke him by showing him several lifes in which mutants were wiped out at the hand of normal humans and the machines they created. Creating a prioritized image of who he should perceive as their greatest enemy. How convinient though that all these memories can never be proven to be true, but are so well designed to break Xavier's resolve for his original plans.
And that's where i become skeptic of what ever this narration is meant to be blindly accepted by us readers or questioned. Perhaps i just prefer the later because it seems more interesting for me to discuss.
Also i give you that ORCHIS are definetly a major enemy that needed to be fought and stopped at any cost, not just for the harm they can do to mutantkind but mankind as a whole. Though i was under the impression they aimed to eradicate all mutants because of the general fear of their returning numbers, rather than just because of Krakoa (i should reread Hox/Pox i guess).
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5468928]The mutants prioritizing themselves when nobody else will, at least while they try to get their own shit together before they can worry about anyone else, is sensible.[/QUOTE]
Also true, i just question the rethoric they display.
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5468928]Xavier has even said he hasn't given up on the dream, but he isn't going to be a naive martyr anymore either.[/QUOTE]
Again i'm skeptic here, because that's what he said officialy. In a summit where he pressured the major nations into basicly letting Krakoa be for their benefit and to avoid a major war with a nation full of super powered beings, one who openly just declared having caused countless death and suffering of people.
We also never get much of his inner thoughts or know what his endgame is.
Though him smiling towards Cyclops declaring he restarts the X-men leaves it ambigious to me how much he believes what he is doing to be the right thing and leaving the door open for others to stop him should he be wrong.
[QUOTE=Havok83;5468943]I think its problematic for people to judge and criticize any minority group for prioritizing helping the group they belong to. If Xavier wants to focus his efforts on helping his persecuted people, why is that an issue or problem for anyone? He isnt doing it at the expense of anyone. Its not like he's taking away from non-mutants or persecuting, conquering and/or killing them in order to elevate mutants[/QUOTE]
They aren't "just" any minority group though. They are a minority group of super powered people, with the largest collective of super heros and villains on Earth.
It's akin to a persecuted minority of people who also sit on a massive nuclear arsenal and have some of the best trained soldiers in the world. So their actions, plans and motivations become a lot more loaded and need to be considered with more care than just those of "any" minority who fight for their own place and acceptance in the world.
Especialy when said group now contains various megalomaniacs and their leader who wants to improve their situation has been manipulated by woman who claims to have reset the universe 9 times because his people will always get annihilated by normal humans.
The "species" and superiority rethoric isn't helping.
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[QUOTE=Zelena;5468992]The greatest tragedies of our world came from divisions.
And now former heroes in a comic support them, consider them as normal…
It’s a paradigm shift.[/QUOTE]
Im not sure I get your stance....
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[QUOTE=Havok83;5468943]I think its problematic for people to judge and criticize any minority group for prioritizing helping the group they belong to. If Xavier wants to focus his efforts on helping his persecuted people, why is that an issue or problem for anyone? He isnt doing it at the expense of anyone. Its not like he's taking away from non-mutants or persecuting, conquering and/or killing them in order to elevate mutants[/QUOTE]
I think X-men are right to prioritizing mutants. What they aren't right is use derrogatory terms against humans
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[QUOTE=Rang10;5469020]I think X-men are right to prioritizing mutants. What they aren't right is use derrogatory terms against humans[/QUOTE]
Like what?
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[QUOTE=Havok83;5469023]Like what?[/QUOTE]
Emma calling refering to humans as "monkeys"
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[QUOTE=Zelena;5468992]The greatest tragedies of our world came from divisions.
And now former heroes in a comic support them, consider them as normal…
It’s a paradigm shift.[/QUOTE]
The mutants weren't the one to create the division in the first place.
it comes across as blaming the victims (mutants as a whole, not select individuals).
[QUOTE=Havok83;5469023]Like what?[/QUOTE]
I think we have examples from the likes of Apocalypse and Exodus, but they are extremists.
Logan, Scott, Jean, Betsy etc. aren't really being any more derogatory towards humans than they were before, even if they are more focused on mutant issues right now.
[QUOTE=Rang10;5469027]Emma calling refering to humans as "monkeys"[/QUOTE]
Emma's a bitch and proud of it though, so this is nothing new.
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[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5469034]The mutants weren't the one to create the division in the first place.
it comes across as blaming the victims (mutants as a whole, not select individuals).
I think we have examples from the likes of Apocalypse and Exodus, but they are extremists.
Logan, Scott, Jean, Betsy etc. aren't really being any more derogatory towards humans than they were before, even if they are more focused on mutant issues right now.
Emma's a bitch and proud of it though, so this is nothing new.[/QUOTE]
It's krakoa culture think Mutants are superior to humans
[QUOTE=Malachi;5468733]I thoroughly enjoyed his ultimate run but there I wasn’t overly familiar or attached to the characters. More a “what if” experience. I didn’t like the ending though. Felt it was a bit anticlimactic and short considering the buildup.
On his avengers run I went from very immersed to bored. Never finished secret war. The buildup again was the best part. The teasing of the ideas was so much more satisfying then the actual end. Much of it was introduced and then never properly explored. The ramp up of the threats made it so that characters introduced early on was disposed to make room for bigger threats. A common problem but still a problem.
Several ideas and beats are recurring. Children of the vault is the makers dome. Even though Mike Carey introduced them. So far that concept feels old and more like a side quest. Often it’s the execution of the ideas and not the ideas themselves that matter . With Hickman you get the feeling that he keeps reusing ideas without changing the execution enough. Some might say it’s great ideas painted in grey. With someone like Carey it could be great ideas or normal ideas but more focus on the execution. Instead of grey there where colors and that was what made it great.
Not to say that Mike Carey is perfect. But he has that touch that Hickman hasn’t. With Hickman it’s the ideas. Pile them on and speculate. That is where the fun is.[/QUOTE]
Interesting that Hickman said that he always tells the same story.
There is a lot of similarities between his avengers/ultimates/X-men stories.
Hickan i smostly a ideas man, his execution is never on the same level as his ideas. This makes for underwhelming stories
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Hickman isn't just repeating his own stories, he's also repeating the X-Men's own stories. This run shares many similarities with the Decimation era (and further back) - for one thing, how many times can mutants start a nation? At this point the average human must roll their eyes when they hear there's a new one, like "Didn't they just dissolve the last one?".
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I think the story is definitely there to make the reader doubt the situation and take their own conclusions and is never a good idea to be completely partial in favor of one side of the story. It looks like they want the X-men to be a different entity from Krakoa and the Quiet Council for a reason.
Hickman made a criticism on Reed Richards complex of trying to solve everything even out of ego at the cost of his relationship with his family.
He also made the cristicism of the Avengers from their "Might makes right" position, some of them take at times, and we saw the consequences at the beggining of Secret Wars
He also criticized the position of the Iluminati Avengers who decided all by themselves to try to save the universe no matter the consequences.
So I expect him to do a similar story with the X-men, this time tackling their weakest side which is actually believing themselves on a superior level and subestimate non-powered human beings and the temptation of leaving behind their humanity, this is why the sentinels as the main adversary make sense because their cold logic cuts directly over the difference between human and mutants seeng all of them as one and logically, this means, because of their programation, both of them must be stopped.
But well I still want to see where does Hickman is going with Krakoa, so far what I have found to be worth of criticism is being addressed on the same issues so I hope he doesn´t forget to add the complex characterization of every X-men and even no X-men character has and for Xavier and Magneto to be still be their complex selfs without being forced into a villain role again for the sake of this story, because Genosha itself, House of M, the destruction of Utopia, the war with the Inhumans, the world wide persecution of mutants, are to me motivation enough to try to make something like Krakoa and make it work in a way that is not a menace to humanity but a supporter of it, only in it´s own terms.
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The intensity needs to pick up.
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[QUOTE=Havok83;5468943]I think its problematic for people to judge and criticize any minority group for prioritizing helping the group they belong to. If Xavier wants to focus his efforts on helping his persecuted people, why is that an issue or problem for anyone? He isnt doing it at the expense of anyone. Its not like he's taking away from non-mutants or persecuting, conquering and/or killing them in order to elevate mutants[/QUOTE]
Danke
[QUOTE=Rang10;5469020]I think X-men are right to prioritizing mutants. What they aren't right is use derrogatory terms against humans[/QUOTE]
Errr ok.
[QUOTE=Grunty;5469010]
Apcoalypse has caused untold suffering and countless deaths over the centuries in his believe to be right to do so and the X-men know of alternate universes and futures in which Apcoalypse succeeded and killed even more (Cable's future, AOA, etc.). Those aren't extreme circumstances. That's what Apocalypse does when he gets his chance and he does it with glee.
Yet Xavier isn't despairing over how many normal human deaths and suffering were caused at the hand of just this mutant alone. No he welcomes this mutant to Krakoa and brings him to an international summit where he openly declares he caused the bronze age collapse which again involved direct and indirect death of countless human lifes at his actions.
Not to forget all the other mutants who murdered and done worse to other humans without second thoughts. Welcomed to Krakoa. An act of realpolitik or to keep them secure on Krakoa i admit, but still just as guilty of creating suffering to everyone as much as unpowered humans caused to mutants.
But how many mutants have normal humans killed?
Until the destruction of Genosha, the largest massacre of mutants was that of the Morlocks. But it wasn't humans who did it, it were other mutants, at the command of a man who himself caused even more deaths of mutants via horrible experiments. Where is that man now? On the Council fo Krakoa. Invited by Xavier for his knowledge he gained via the suffering of mutants.
And Genosha itself? The biggest death toll of mutants in history? Who did that? A normal human? No an alien being directly related to Xavier himself.
And the next big moment of suffering described? The one million mutants losing their X-genes? Was that a normal human? No, it was a meta human, who at the time believed herself to be a mutant, because of the man who believed himself to be her father and tried to indoctrinate her on his "mutant above all else" ideology, which harmed her for years afterwards and was part of the madness which caused her to depower mutants. It wasn't anti-mutant ideology which caused Decimation, it was the mutant superiority ideology of Magneto. A man now standing side by side with Xavier and organizing his mutant nation.
Why is Xavier seemingly only blaming normal humans for the suffering of mutantkind, when both have suffered under the same outside and inside influences and mutants have harmed normal humans just as much if not more?
Not to say his reaction isn't understandable, but from an objective point this one sided perspective and blaming towards their situation seems partial ignorant to me.
I can also understand him blaming normal humans on a constant smaller scale harm towards mutants though. Because that's where the mutant metaphor still fits. Though it ignores aspects like micro-agression and positiv discrimination in favor of blunt scenes of direct images.
They aren't "just" any minority group though. They are a minority group of super powered people, with the largest collective of super heros and villains on Earth.
It's akin to a persecuted minority of people who also sit on a massive nuclear arsenal and have some of the best trained soldiers in the world. So their actions, plans and motivations become a lot more loaded and need to be considered with more care than just those of "any" minority who fight for their own place and acceptance in the world.
Especialy when said group now contains various megalomaniacs and their leader who wants to improve their situation has been manipulated by woman who claims to have reset the universe 9 times because his people will always get annihilated by normal humans.
The "species" and superiority rethoric isn't helping.[/QUOTE] There's timelines they know of that Xavier's batsh!t crazy or Reed Richards is an evil psychopath
Yeeeah all this is...pretty much Blaming the victim,which is rather.....
Anywho...
Xavier not being The telepathic Xanax humanity wanted in response to their growing white flight I meant Mutant paranoia is somehow him blaming normal humans. Who seem to less than the Mutants so much So, you'd usec
Violence to protect from a persecuted minority. You forget a normal human killed millions of Magnetos people,
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/5TmcOTn.jpg[/IMG]
Here's a start
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5469034]The mutants weren't the one to create the division in the first place.
it comes across as blaming the victims (mutants as a whole, not select individuals).
[/QUOTE]
Yuuup!!!
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[QUOTE]The mutants weren't the one to create the division in the first place.[/QUOTE]
I'm not so sure about that. Wasn't the first first major public reveal of mutants when Magento attacked a military based declaring that humans suck and mutants should rule?
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[QUOTE=Alan2099;5469343]I'm not so sure about that. Wasn't the first first major public reveal of mutants when Magento attacked a military based declaring that humans suck and mutants should rule?[/QUOTE]
Humans had long since shown their true feelings about Mutants. It's those same feelings as to why Killcrop births like NightCrawler/Jamie Madrox are so rare
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Things went sideways when Bolivar Trask used the mass media to spew his bigotry, and introduce the Sentinels to the world.
[img]https://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/kirby/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2005/03/X-men-The-Early-Years-14-1995.jpg[/img]
[img]https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-68a2887ded7cad13d390b32c5b5f7535[/img]
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[QUOTE=Houseofhick;5468743]Look at what they've done!
Who?
No more
No more
No more
House of X 1
Magneto "You have new gods now."[/QUOTE]
Look until these people stop getting murked off by humans every other issue in their own books that God narrative is for the birds.
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[QUOTE=Journey;5469436]Look until these people stop getting murked off by humans every other issue in their own books that God narrative is for the birds.[/QUOTE]
Damn how come it made so many mad? lol
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[QUOTE=Havok83;5469013]Im not sure I get your stance....[/QUOTE]
The X-men, the mutants are fictional characters. They don’t have a value by themselves. They had aventures and showed their true colors, they represented values. The X-men represented good values: generosity, courage, greatness of heart… while keeping human weaknesses.
What do they represent now if they endorse existing divisions? Selfishness, segregation, arrogance?
The role of heroes is to show the way. The good way. They are not heroes, anymore? What is the purpose?
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[QUOTE=Journey;5469436]Look until these people stop getting murked off by humans every other issue in their own books that God narrative is for the birds.[/QUOTE]
House of X 1
Magneto "You see, I know how you humans love your symbolism, almost as much as you love your religion"
Magneto "And I wanted you... I needed you... To understand"
Magneto "You have new gods now"
Are they blaming Genosha and Decimation on the rest of humanity? That is what the art a few pages back on this thread suggests.
I want to see where Hickman takes this story but I just don't understand this new narrative or where it came from.
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[QUOTE=Anthony Shaw;5469424]Things went sideways when Bolivar Trask used the mass media to spew his bigotry, and introduce the Sentinels to the world.
[img]https://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/kirby/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2005/03/X-men-The-Early-Years-14-1995.jpg[/img]
[img]https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-68a2887ded7cad13d390b32c5b5f7535[/img][/QUOTE]
You could argue that things went sideways after Magneto attacked Cape Citadel.
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[QUOTE=Houseofhick;5469549]House of X 1
Magneto "You see, I know how you humans love your symbolism, almost as much as you love your religion"
Magneto "And I wanted you... I needed you... To understand"
Magneto "You have new gods now"
Are they blaming Genosha and Decimation on the rest of humanity? That is what the art a few pages back on this thread suggests.
I want to see where Hickman takes this story but I just don't understand this new narrative or where it came from.[/QUOTE]
I agree this came out of left field given that Magneto said this on Israel and while he has not been particulary religious he still holds some respect for his Jewish roots and in the past he has still made expressions of his beliefs so I took this as him just wanting to make a point to the diplomats of the main economic powers in the world while his actitude with non-powered human in general has been a lot more cordial which makes me think he makes a difference between those who are in power and those who are just living their lives the best way they can.
[IMG]https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/58c35f74d1758e424ee76710/1594809250071-HX27WVVO7V2U0NGG9298/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kIy7ypBGMG7npDyxyYZHB7d7gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z5QHyNOqBUUEtDDsRWrJLTmbA40xHUQunj0vJznaJavl6ujvXYM8rZ1j2OjcSorUDKahYw4TKbQvK4T6waj0dHw/Giant+Size+X-Men+Magneto+3.jpg?format=750w[/IMG]
I agree Magneto taking over Cape citadel definitely worsened the state of things between humans and mutants, mostly because most people were still unaware of mutants existence, still Claremont left some clues about how some goverments already had plans to use mutants as weapons, so I would say it was a mutual situation in which the two sides worsened the state of things with Magneto worsening the mutants standing with the general public on one hand and some goverments having their secret projects to use mutants on the other hand.
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[QUOTE=Lucyinthesky;5469611]I agree this came out of left field given that Magneto said this on Israel and while he has not been particulary religious he still holds some respect for his Jewish roots and in the past he has still made expressions of his beliefs so I took this as him just wanting to make a point to the diplomats of the main economic powers in the world while his actitude with non-powered human in general has been a lot more cordial which makes me think he makes a difference between those who are in power and those who are just living their lives the best way they can.[/QUOTE]
That's raising some good point. But it makes me wonder when he is showing his game face and when he is being honest? Especialy given his past in which he could flip flop from full fanaticism to reasonable if flawed reasoning, between appearances (and writers). Not to forget that it's not unusual for prejudiced people to make invididual exceptions, while their view towards a collective can remain the same.
And even in his heroic moments, Magneto tends to look down on normal humans in general, feeling pitty rather than hate towards them. Still a form of compassion, but more suiting his anti-hero presentation, than the classic hero role the regular X-men normaly play. Which is all fitting and interesting for this character.
However my problem is that these heros are now sounding a lot like him. Again not helped by the rethoric shown by them in internal discussions, which raises the question of how much they seem to actualy buy into the boast Magneto did there.
Though, it's one reason i'm quite interested in Nightcrawler's journey in Way of X.
There is a visible journey in all of this. But i'm not clapping for them at the halfway point yet.
[QUOTE=Lucyinthesky;5469611]I agree Magneto taking over Cape citadel definitely worsened the state of things between humans and mutants, mostly because most people were still unaware of mutants existence, still Claremont left some clues about how some goverments already had plans to use mutants as weapons, so I would say it was a mutual situation in which the two sides worsened the state of things with Magneto worsening the mutants standing with the general public on one hand and some goverments having their secret projects to use mutants on the other hand.[/QUOTE]
With additional retcons of mutant agression and agression against mutants dating back further and further back in history, it becomes really difficult to tell who has thrown the first stone.
Though i guess the truth is there were a series of first stones thrown through the history of the Marvel universe and both sides are independently guilty of it. Especialy since there wasn't a single united faction of either for most of history (and normal humans still aren't).
For the modern day situation. The situation was definetly mutual, but the public just saw Magneto being the first to openly act on it.
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[QUOTE=Rang10;5469040]It's krakoa culture think Mutants are superior to humans
[/QUOTE]
I’m still divided on this. For sure Emma, Magneto, and Apocalypse have all said derogatory things.... but that’s nothing new. At the same time you have characters like Jean and Kate who have shown pretty much the same level of care for humans.
I don’t think Dani referring to “human institutions” is inherently a superiority thing. If I started referring to Western institutions I don’t think you would assume I thought they were inferior.
Lastly, I think it’s intentionally in a gray area. There are moments of genuine pride that come with the mutants having some semblance of peace for once, but then there are also sinister undertones here and there. I do think it’s odd that people are much more upset with the humans/ mutant division now that the mutants aren’t an endangered species facing extinction after extinction, but to each their own.
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[QUOTE=Kingdom X;5469629]I’m still divided on this. For sure Emma, Magneto, and Apocalypse have all said derogatory things.... but that’s nothing new. At the same time you have characters like Jean and Kate who have shown pretty much the same level of care for humans.
I don’t think Dani referring to “human institutions” is inherently a superiority thing. If I started referring to Western institutions I don’t think you would assume I thought they were inferior.
Lastly, I think it’s intentionally in a gray area. There are moments of genuine pride that come with the mutants having some semblance of peace for once, but then there are also sinister undertones here and there. I do think it’s odd that people are much more upset with the humans/ mutant division now that the mutants aren’t an endangered species facing extinction after extinction, but to each their own.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps part of the problem is quality of the writing when it comes to characterization, narration and presentation. Which because of the many writers involved at the moment and the differences in skill and focus, can lead to lacking or contradicting views into the characters and their motivations.
Hickman for example is a great at plotting and constructing a world and story in my opinion, but i feel he is lacking in actual characterization. The characters under him often feel more like devices, who play off narration and explanations from a recording, rather than people thinking and feeling like they should in this world he creates.
So there it becomes difficult for some readers to pinpoint what are the actual character motivations, what are actual characters believe, what is supposed to be in line with the character, what is supposed to be odd for them, where are we supposed to agree and where are we supposed to disagree with what they are saying and where do the writers mess up getting that across?
Which is where some might loss their patience to wait for the end of the main book, because it's not clear if the divide, which i see as problematic message, is supposed to be normalized or the point where everything breaks appart eventualy.
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[QUOTE=Grunty;5469627]That's raising some good point. But it makes me wonder when he is showing his game face and when he is being honest? Especialy given his past in which he could flip flop from full fanaticism to reasonable if flawed reasoning, between appearances (and writers). Not to forget that it's not unusual for prejudiced people to make invididual exceptions, while their view towards a collective can remain the same.
And even in his heroic moments, Magneto tends to look down on normal humans in general, feeling pitty rather than hate towards them. Still a form of compassion, but more suiting his anti-hero presentation, than the classic hero role the regular X-men normaly play. Which is all fitting and interesting for this character.[/QUOTE]
We have gone over this during his first reformation period Magneto doesn´t see human beings with pity, he seems them as potentially dangerous to themselves and to mutants but mostly he has this oppinion on it´s leaders, those who built the nuclear weapons and the sentinels while he mostly acts normal with those who are not part of the goverments, neither with pity or with fear or with hate, he just interacts with them as he would with anyone else. I don´t know if the writers do this on purpose but this is pretty much his de-facto behavoir even since the 80´s. The problem and what made him a villain was how far was he willing to go in his search to protect mutants.
[IMG]https://marvelmunky76.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/uxm200_page-25.jpg[/IMG]
It´s ironic but seeing his personality from when he was a child to a young adult his interaction with people is mostly quiet and taciturn, unless he´s angry, in which case he can be quite violent, especially since he has PTSD, he´s not very sociable and just puts on the Magneto persona when he´s getting ready to make a statement. that´s mostly how I see the difference in his behavoir, when he´s being more himself he goes back to his quiet and taciturn personality unless he´s deliveratelly trying to get a reaction from the people with which he´s interacting.
[IMG]https://thecomicvault.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/magneto_not_a_hero_01_0009.jpg?w=659&h=1024[/IMG]
[QUOTE]However my problem is that these heros are now sounding a lot like him. Again not helped by the rethoric shown by them in internal discussions, which raises the question of how much they seem to actualy buy into the boast Magneto did there.[/QUOTE]
The X-men have never buy into Magneto´s boast, they are perfectly aware of the differences between his boasts and their own thoughts on the matter, I think mostly the X-men are feed up and tired of trying different ways and not really making a difference so they suppose something quite different would lead them somewhere else and again, they are actually supporting Xavier like they traditionally have done. I dont think it´s a crime or a bad thing to actually try to make life better for mutants in general and also keep their work as heros for the entire world, specially seeing the last decade events, it only makes sense for them to try something different just to get into a more beareable state of things.
[IMG]https://i.redd.it/3alkwn26wkq31.png[/IMG]
[QUOTE]Though, it's one reason i'm quite interested in Nightcrawler's journey in Way of X.
There is a visible journey in all of this. But i'm not clapping for them at the halfway point yet.[/QUOTE]
I agree I think Way of X will serve both a wake up call for all characters, specially Charles on a need for a new way to function as a society, for Magneto to reevaluate his past, given there´s going to be a kind of exploration on the jewish faith, for the X-men to rediscover their values and their importance on this new stage of life and for Krakoa in general when they discover life must be way more valued than they are doing at the moment. I actually hope Spurrier shakes them all and it´s going to also bring a great story, because while they feel so well with themselves, they are still human and flawed that way but given their powers their mistakes have the capability of being quite bigger and permanent.
[QUOTE]With additional retcons of mutant agression and agression against mutants dating back further and further back in history, it becomes really difficult to tell who has thrown the first stone.
Though i guess the truth is there were a series of first stones thrown through the history of the Marvel universe and both sides are independently guilty of it. Especialy since there wasn't a single united faction of either for most of history (and normal humans still aren't).
For the modern day situation. The situation was definetly mutual, but the public just saw Magneto being the first to openly act on it.[/QUOTE]
Yes it was Magneto who discovered those plans when he was working as a secret agent for an agency called control and bassically lost his mind over it, still he holds responsibily of trying tactics that woud be counterproductive to most mutants, trying to give them a place and a voice with those of authority he made things worse in the eyes of the general public, I thought Mystique was more pragmatic by using her links and her powers and her work with the goverment to advance her personal agenda this is why I think her brotherhood was way more effective in general and still this doesn´t justify the sentinels and Genosha already had made it´s mutant population slaves to help their economy, so I see this as humans and mutants just having their different motives for their actions without really taking in consideration the consequences of their actions which is quite realist.
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[QUOTE=Grunty;5469642]Perhaps part of the problem is quality of the writing when it comes to characterization, narration and presentation. Which because of the many writers involved at the moment and the differences in skill and focus, can lead to lacking or contradicting views into the characters and their motivations.
[B]Hickman for example is a great at plotting and constructing a world and story in my opinion, but i feel he is lacking in actual characterization. The characters under him often feel more like devices, who play off narration and explanations from a recording, rather than people thinking and feeling like they should in this world he creates.
[/B]
So there it becomes difficult for some readers to pinpoint what are the actual character motivations, what are actual characters believe, what is supposed to be in line with the character, what is supposed to be odd for them, where are we supposed to agree and where are we supposed to disagree with what they are saying and where do the writers mess up getting that across?
Which is where some might loss their patience to wait for the end of the main book, because it's not clear if the divide, which i see as problematic message, is supposed to be normalized or the point where everything breaks appart eventualy.[/QUOTE]
Agreed I loved Hickmans characterization on his FF and New Avengers(Illuminati) books but his work on X-men so far has been about worldbuilding than about characterization to make those changes make sense for all the characters and I think this was fundamental because IT´S A BIG CHANGE in strategy compared to the past and it needs to be addressed inside story their reasons to be ok with all of this and I hope this will be addressed by Hickman with the new X-men team, I hope he will now get into the character work now that Krakoa is already stablished.
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[QUOTE=Lucyinthesky;5469611]I agree this came out of left field given that Magneto said this on Israel and while he has not been particulary religious he still holds some respect for his Jewish roots and in the past he has still made expressions of his beliefs so I took this as him just wanting to make a point to the diplomats of the main economic powers in the world while his actitude with non-powered human in general has been a lot more cordial which makes me think he makes a difference between those who are in power and those who are just living their lives the best way they can.
[IMG]https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/58c35f74d1758e424ee76710/1594809250071-HX27WVVO7V2U0NGG9298/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kIy7ypBGMG7npDyxyYZHB7d7gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z5QHyNOqBUUEtDDsRWrJLTmbA40xHUQunj0vJznaJavl6ujvXYM8rZ1j2OjcSorUDKahYw4TKbQvK4T6waj0dHw/Giant+Size+X-Men+Magneto+3.jpg?format=750w[/IMG]
I agree Magneto taking over Cape citadel definitely worsened the state of things between humans and mutants, mostly because most people were still unaware of mutants existence, still Claremont left some clues about how some goverments already had plans to use mutants as weapons, so I would say it was a mutual situation in which the two sides worsened the state of things with Magneto worsening the mutants standing with the general public on one hand and some goverments having their secret projects to use mutants on the other hand.[/QUOTE]
I agree, that both mutants and the rest of humanity need to take their fair share of blame for the hate.
The writers can't keep blaming the rest of humanity for ALL the mutants problems. How many times have mutants been the cause of their own pain and suffering? It is not lost on me that one of those mutants is still stirring the pot by claiming to be a god ............... NO!
I do like it when posts like yours make me see different angles but I just can't agree with the God comment.......... Sorry!
If he is going to say things like this while representing mutants then for me the X-Men don't stand for what I believed them to be.
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[QUOTE=Kingdom X;5469629]I’m still divided on this. For sure Emma, Magneto, and Apocalypse have all said derogatory things.... but that’s nothing new. At the same time you have characters like Jean and Kate who have shown pretty much the same level of care for humans.
I don’t think Dani referring to “human institutions” is inherently a superiority thing. If I started referring to Western institutions I don’t think you would assume I thought they were inferior.
Lastly, I think it’s intentionally in a gray area. There are moments of genuine pride that come with the mutants having some semblance of peace for once, but then there are also sinister undertones here and there. I do think it’s odd that people are much more upset with the humans/ mutant division now that the mutants aren’t an endangered species facing extinction after extinction, but to each their own.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. I read those moments, like the one you refer to with Dani, as distinguishing a cultural difference, as well as pride in their progress and accomplishments as a Nation.
Emma. Magneto. Apocalypse. They've [U]always [/U]felt superior. And not just to humans either. Their self assuredness transcends.
I can see the issue many folks are having though. Much of the ire seems connected to the use of "human" as an implied all-encompassing and inescapable blanket statement, which is only further exacerbated by the regularity of its use by Krakoans OUTSIDE of the aforementioned trio. So when language that previously provokes a sense of condescension(Mags) is being used by characters more recognized for their altruism (Dani), readers are naturally going to draw parallels and in doing so associate our "heroes" with the sensibilities of our "villains". Of course, I use those two terms facetiously as I don't subscribe to binary boxing--particularly for such complex characters. So please, Emma/Mags/Poccy fans: Don't smash me. I love them too.
All that being said, Krakoa is not pillaging suburbs, nor kidnapping children, nor holding humanity by some giant floral leash.
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[QUOTE=Lucyinthesky;5469647]We have gone over this during his first reformation period Magneto doesn´t see human beings with pity, he seems them as potentially dangerous to themselves and to mutants but mostly he has this oppinion on it´s leaders, those who built the nuclear weapons and the sentinels while he mostly acts normal with those who are not part of the goverments, neither with pity or with fear or with hate, he just interacts with them as he would with anyone else. I don´t know if the writers do this on purpose but this is pretty much his de-facto behavoir even since the 80´s. [/QUOTE]
That does make sense and fits many of his past more anti-heroic/villain moments i admit.
[QUOTE=Lucyinthesky;5469647]It´s ironic but seeing his personality from when he was a child to a young adult his interaction with people is mostly quiet and taciturn, he´s not very sociable and just puts on the Magneto persona when he´s getting ready to make a statement. that´s mostly how I see the difference in his behavoir, when he´s being more himself he goes back to his quiet and taciturn personality unless he´s deliveratelly trying to get a reaction from the people with which he´s interacting. [/QUOTE]
And that's why i find it difficult in the current direction to see where his game face is and where he has his mask down. I guess the whole Moira X business and how much she really changed the two is what gets me worried about how to read him and Xavier at the moment.
[QUOTE=Lucyinthesky;5469647]The X-men have never buy into Magneto´s boast, they are perfectly aware of the differences between his boasts and their own thoughts on the matter, I think mostly the X-men are feed up and tired of trying different ways and not really make a difference so they suppose something quite different would lead them somewhere else and again, they are actually supporting Xavier like they traditionally have done. [/QUOTE]
That's where i feel there is still a contrast between how they act as a group and how they act on an invidiual level, but i see and understand your point and admit it could be right, while i overthinkg the wrong details.
[QUOTE=Lucyinthesky;5469647]Yes it was Magneto who discovered those plans when he was working as a secret agent for an agency called control and bassically lost his mind over it, still he holds responsibily of trying tactics that woud be counterproductive to most mutants, trying to give them a place and a voice with those of authority he made things worse in the eyes of the general public, I thought Mystique was more pragmatic by using her links and her powers and her work with the goverment to advance her personal agenda this is why I think her brotherhood was way more effective in general and still this doesn´t justify the sentinels and Genosha already had made it´s mutant population slaves to help their economy, so I see this as humans and mutants just having their different motives for their actions without really taking in consideration the consequences of their actions which is quite realist.[/QUOTE]
Yeah quite understandable.
Though with the nature as super hero comic, the past decades have also made the situation increasingly worse. As there needs to be a constant new evil organization of normal humans trying to wipe out, enslave or exploit mutants, while evil megalomanic mutants constantly need to show up and plan to do the same to normal humans. Essentialy giving the radicals on both sides fodder to fuel their anti-"the other" ideologies.
Though thinking about it.
With both sides constantly showing their worst and only the mutant heros having any white (or bright grey) shading (the other Marvel heros are only temporary presences and aren't allowed to constantly show up so the X-men can resolve the problems themself), combined with normal humans who aren't part of evil organizations being mostly sidelined as bit players or reduced to a backround filler (because the narration needs to focus on the heros, villains or enemies foremost so it's a necessary narrative tool i would argue), it's no wonder one can get the image that humanity in the marvel universe is a weirdly united faction against mutants, while the mutants are much more presented as actualy divided between the good, the and the ugly of their group.
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[QUOTE=Houseofhick;5469658]I agree, that both mutants and the rest of humanity need to take their fair share of blame for the hate.
The writers can't keep blaming the rest of humanity for ALL the mutants problems. How many times have mutants been the cause of their own pain and suffering? It is not lost on me that one of those mutants is still stirring the pot by claiming to be a god ............... NO!
[B]I do like it when posts like yours make me see different angles but I just can't agree with the God comment.......... Sorry![/B]
If he is going to say things like this while representing mutants then for me the X-Men don't stand for what I believed them to be.[/QUOTE]
I actually quite disliked that moment too tbh, specially since it was done on Israel given the place means a lot for Magneto for his origins, because he meet Xavier there and because it´s kind of the model he has been trying to get for mutants, a place for mutants to be safe from persecution has it´s origin there, so yes this didn´t clic with me :)
I am just making an interpretation on his actitude there and connected it with the people he was talking to given they were expecting Xavier, not him and one of them was getting ready to kill Xavier off during this meeting so I guess that helped to change his actitude during the conversation a I actually hope Spurrier looks closer into this as well on Way of X because while Magneto definitely has always been pro-mutant he didn´t really made the mistake of thinking of them as "actual gods" lol he himself and other other mutants have messed up enough times for him to hold this pov, so for me it makes more sense as a political statement than something he believes in a literal way.
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[QUOTE=Lucyinthesky;5469667]I actually quite disliked that moment too tbh :) I am just making an interpretation on his actitude there and connected it with the people he was talking to given they were expecting Xavier, not him and one of them was getting ready to kill Xavier off during this meeting so I guess that helped to change his actitude during the conversation a I actually hope Spurrier looks closer into this as well on Way of X because while Magneto definitely has always been pro-mutant he didn´t really made the mistake of thinking of them as "actual gods" lol he himself and other other mutants have messed up enough times for him to hold this pov, so for me it makes more sense as a political statement than something he believes in a literal way.[/QUOTE]
Really enjoy the comments you and grunty make.
Personally, I would of liked him being pulled up on that comment or for him just not to have made it.
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[QUOTE=Grunty;5469665]That does make sense and fits many of his past more anti-heroic/villain moments i admit.
And that's why i find it difficult in the current direction to see where his game face is and where he has his mask down. I guess the whole Moira X business and how much she really changed the two is what gets me worried about how to read him and Xavier at the moment.[/QUOTE]
Moira mostly tried to make them learn to work together, she made some comments about Magneto being particulary difficult and after he discovered her manipulation of his DNA he became quite closed off when it comes to her but he used to trust her to teach him how to care for the school during his first reformation period and she also wanted Charles to change his initial dream but this is a post-fact change on the timeline, we don´t know yet how much she changed their actual behavoir or even how much they actually trust her, I think Hickman purposelly left things quite open for the reader to interpret until he tackles Moira X situation, because her charactertization definitely has changed a lot compared to when she was human and a supporter for Charles and the X-men, this new Moira is way more manipulative and I think it´s the main subplot Hickman has with the X-men.
[QUOTE]That's where i feel there is still a contrast between how they act as a group and how they act on an invidiual level, but i see and understand your point and admit it could be right, while i overthinkg the wrong details.[/QUOTE]
Yes I hope Way of X, the new team of X-men, Sword help to give the reader a bigger understanding of what the characters are thinking and why they decided to accept Krakoa in the first place, I am quite happy with Kurt making the exact questions I had with the whole ressurrection process so that´s a good beggining and I hope Hickman tackles those issues with the main X-men team while Sword deals with other mutants not quite associated with the X-men who support Krakoa for their own reasons, I think we are just in the middle of the story and we have yet to see the beggining of it.
[QUOTE]Though with the nature as super hero comic, the past decades have also made the situation increasingly worse. As there needs to be a constant new evil organization of normal humans trying to wipe out, enslave or exploit mutants, while evil megalomanic mutants constantly need to show up and plan to do the same to normal humans. Essentialy giving the radicals on both sides fodder to fuel their anti-"the other" ideologies.
Though thinking about it.
With both sides constantly showing their worst and only the mutant heros having any white (or bright grey) shading (the other Marvel heros are only temporary presences and aren't allowed to constantly show up so the X-men can resolve the problems themself), combined with normal humans who aren't part of evil organizations being mostly sidelined as bit players or reduced to a backround filler (because the narration needs to focus on the heros, villains or enemies foremost so it's a necessary narrative tool i would argue), it's no wonder one can get the image that humanity in the marvel universe is a weirdly united faction against mutants, while the mutants are much more presented as actualy divided between the good, the and the ugly of their group.[/QUOTE]
Yes I think writers can do more showing the nicer side of humankind, Claremont used to do this with supporting human characters like Moira herself, Gabrielle Haller and later Valerie Cooper in the 90´s and Percy is doing something with that police officer Logan befriended on his title but I think it´s important to show more mutant support from different institurions and people or even other hero groups, that would make the story more compelling imo.
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[QUOTE=Houseofhick;5469673]Really enjoy the comments you and grunty make.
Personally, I would of liked him being pulled up on that comment or for him just not to have made it.[/QUOTE]
Agreed, I also wish he didn´t made it and I actually thought Xavier send Magneto instead of going himself to make the point of them not being willing to take more hits anymore but I wish he had used other words to make this point, especially given the context.
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[QUOTE=Lucyinthesky;5469647]
[IMG]https://thecomicvault.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/magneto_not_a_hero_01_0009.jpg?w=659&h=1024[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]
Such a sexy panel.
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[QUOTE=Fokken;5469697]Such a sexy panel.[/QUOTE]
It´s this panel is from "Magneto:Not a hero by Skottie Young and art by Clay Mann
I hope he gets back to work on a X-title at some point :)
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[QUOTE=Houseofhick;5469549]House of X 1
Magneto "You see, I know how you humans love your symbolism, almost as much as you love your religion"
Magneto "And I wanted you... I needed you... To understand"
Magneto "You have new gods now"
Are they blaming Genosha and Decimation on the rest of humanity? That is what the art a few pages back on this thread suggests.
I want to see where Hickman takes this story but I just don't understand this new narrative or where it came from.[/QUOTE]
Again they can't call themselves "gods" & expect viewers to take that seriously when their getting offed by regular humans whom are ants when compared to gods, some puny gods 8f that's the case, in particular 1 of their elite omega levels "meant to be protected at all cost" stays getting owned by humans that was a clown quote from Mags.
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[QUOTE=Alan2099;5469343]I'm not so sure about that. Wasn't the first first major public reveal of mutants when Magento attacked a military based declaring that humans suck and mutants should rule?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=BroHomo;5469385]Humans had long since shown their true feelings about Mutants. It's those same feelings as to why Killcrop births like NightCrawler/Jamie Madrox are so rare[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Anthony Shaw;5469424]Things went sideways when Bolivar Trask used the mass media to spew his bigotry, and introduce the Sentinels to the world.[/QUOTE]
Timeline wise, doesn't stuff like Weapon Plus/X predate Magneto's public supervillain debut?
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[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5469911]Timeline wise, doesn't stuff like Weapon Plus/X predate Magneto's public supervillain debut?[/QUOTE]
Stuff like Weapon Plus and The First X-Men were self-contained compared to Magneto's televised debut. Even the retcon that Namor was the first mutant is ignored by overshadowing it with his Atlantean heritage.
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[QUOTE=Triniking1234;5469925]Stuff like Weapon Plus and The First X-Men were self-contained compared to Magneto's televised debut. Even the retcon that Namor was the first mutant is ignored by overshadowing it with his Atlantean heritage.[/QUOTE]
But Weapon Plus involves the capture and experimentation of mutants, as if they were less than human, indicating that maybe Magneto was right that there was a war taking place.
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[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5469935]But Weapon Plus involves the capture and experimentation of mutants, as if they were less than human, indicating that maybe Magneto was right that there was a war taking place.[/QUOTE]
I think Alan's comment was talking about the public reaction to the appearance of mutants. Apart from Captain America's Project Rebirth, Weapon Plus capturing mutants for experimentation wasn't public knowledge before Magneto and Trask showed up.
