What do you think of Hickmans X-Men so far, still Interested or Not ??

[QUOTE=ExodusCloak;5517342]Tilde Soames powers were incredibly useful. Kavita Rao who eventually changed her opinion originally called it a curse. But if you think about it had the world been a more forward thinking place and more inclusive the right infrastructure could be in place to help potential mutants and prevent disaster when their powers manifest.

Tilde needed a world that understood her and where being s mutant is acceptable and a place that can anticipate when someone will manifest their abilities.

Having a bunch of precogs anticipating mutant manifestation would be key to preventing tradegies like Tilde. Also having Government cooperate with this initiative is also key.[/QUOTE]

This is one of the biggest flaws of the X-men, It often overlooks that mutants would want mutants regulated but for a more interesting story. The majority of mutants act against their best interest mutants would be as terrified of Bailey Hoskins as humans would be of him. The vast majority of mutants who can't level a city would be as afraid as humans are of mutants who can level a city. That mutual fear would lead mutants to accept some sort of regulations which then cuts down the hate and fear to a small subsection of mutants maybe Omegas/Alphas and mutants who can't control their powers like Cyclops and Rogue.

Of course, that is a vastly different book where Omegas/Alphas are feared, all other mutants are just hated.

[QUOTE=Alan2099;5517280]Killing people and taking away their ability to fly is a rather huge difference.



I'd like to think the characters have more of an identity than just "I have powers."

Storm is still Storm even if she's powerless. Wolverine is still Wolverine. Gambit is still Gambit. Their identities remain intact.[/QUOTE]

This is assuming that the worst thing that can happen to an individual is death, and that nothing else comes close. That's not the case with many cultures and religions though. Of course there's more to their identification as a mutant than the ability to fly, but taking away what makes them mutants also took away their ability to reproduce, which, within the UN definition is technically genocide.

Recently in Northern Ireland there was a vote before the parliament on whether there should be conversion therapy for LGBTQ people in the Province. There were some who actually voted that this should happen, a leader of a political party has lost her job because she was seen as too progressive because she abstained. Now, a gay man might not be killed by conversion therapy, and Joe (for example) would still be Joe, but taking away that part of a person's identity would be an utterly appalling thing to even consider doing in my opinion.

[QUOTE=Killerbee911;5517082]Yes, that wasn't confrontational(or it wasn't meant to be confrontational beyond the point of a normal discussion), and as an added bonus not everything in a post is aimed at an individual even though an individual tagged. Honestly, you were reading negative intent where none was intended but since I didn't mean that to happen I apologize for being confrontational or implying that you were saying something that you weren't in the post. I come on forums to have honest exchanges even with people who don't agree with my pov, We can disagree on things for the most part I am not trying to be a-hole.[/QUOTE]

Thank you, and I apologize for taking a bad read on it. I agree, I like coming on here for the same reason, and I understand we love these characters and stories, we're bound to get a little worked up sometimes.

[QUOTE=Killerbee911;5517082]Like with above some times we don't do best with words. Genocide is simply trying to wipe out a group of people on purpose, Obviously killing them is the simplest method. But "forced assimilation" is trying to wipe a group of people it is taking a group of people in your ranks to make them disappear hence wiping them out.

Another way of describing what happened is that Wanda forced sterilized the mutant population so that they couldn't create any more "mutants". The real-life application of something like that would be someone unleashed a virus that made minorities unable to produce pigment/melanin in their skin. Just like Wanda "hey didn't kill them " they just got rid of their ability to be their intended skin color and that shouldn't be seen as a bad thing because the entire world would be the same. The black people and other poc who are oppressed should be happy to be made white because then they wouldn't be hated anymore. We just forced them to physically assimilate and over time they will culturally assimilate and exist no more. [I]If a group of people who existed don't exist anymore from something someone did on purpose what is that called[/I]?

Mutant's powers good or bad are part of them. People should have seen how some people in the deaf community react to scientists talking about being able to remove certain genetic traits. I taught that people would be happy with the news but some people in that community don't see being deaf as a defect. They saw it as destroying deaf culture. The point is shouldn't just assume mucus boy and long neck are unhappy with what they are even if it seems bad to you.

More and More I want X-men to be less metaphor because at times it lets people escape from facing some of the ugly stuff. Too often people hide behind the danger of powers to escape the ugliness of mistreatment that is happening.[/QUOTE]

I've never minded the minority metaphor, but I am on the side that the X-Men embody more than that. I think they can and should be explored across many angles, there's plenty of characters to do that with.

What Wanda did was terrible, there's no denying that, and there's definitely a case to be made that her action amounts to genocide. Intention was there ("No More Mutants"), people died or were erased, and the mutant population was sterilized. It's definitely a complex issue and I find my opinion changing from time to time.

I guess what I wonder is what about mutants who don't want to be mutants? I suppose Wanda didn't offer them a choice, so even if they would've accepted losing their mutantdom, she took their agency. And what about mutant culture? There was a semblance of it during Morrison's run before it was essentially discarded. Did Wanda erase a culture or an ethnicity or species? What are mutants?

I don't want it to seem that I want to ignore the obvious mistreatment of mutants in the MU, that's not my intention, but I do think that the danger presented by some mutants, through no fault of their own, is a real issue that needs to be addressed as well.

It's strange that the X-office handed the reigns of the conclusion of Decimation to the Avengers office as several stories said the same thing.

[QUOTE=BroHomo;5517085]Ehhh not committing Genocide due to a technicality still wouldn't make sleep easier at nights
Also saying No More of something right beforeir becomes no more seeeems pretty cut and dry
Wouldn't ANYONE willing to go through with Genocide be seen as mentally unsound or 'under duress'

How would they not? How would it be any different than Latin America the definition of what constitutes 'Latinx'

What kinda disturbed individual be thankful for Genocide? Theyd only be traitors if they try to 'pass' and live life as normal humans


[B]This has literally never been an X-storyline lol quite the opposite[/B]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/2RLnNzh.jpg[/img]

Jeez do yall even read the cOmics or just watch movies/Tv and get on wikipedia?

there have been slaves who didn't mind it as much as most but these would exceptions to the rule

You keep saying that but You dont know any minority that'd rather not bd one?
Any at all[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry, what do you mean? A minority would want to be mutants?

[QUOTE=TheDeadSpace;5517113]Didn't astonishing X-Men have this as a plot point?

It even led to a fight of Beast vs Wolverine since the X-Men didn't want the students to give in without much consideration.

That being said, how did things lead back to Wanda? If anything, I feel this proves the argument to move past this considering its ominous presence over the franchise. Everything always seems to go back to that one event. The villains are viewed as stale, but this isn't? Just food for thought. I know Hickman has essentially created a fix for the situation from Wanda, but some aspects that reference this era feel unneeded.[/QUOTE]

Good point, I think people tend to forget this plot.

[QUOTE=Alan2099;5517280]Killing people and taking away their ability to fly is a rather huge difference.



I'd like to think the characters have more of an identity than just "I have powers."

Storm is still Storm even if she's powerless. Wolverine is still Wolverine. Gambit is still Gambit. Their identities remain intact.[/QUOTE]

Agree. having powers is just a consequence of having X-gene

But that doesn't make a genocide. People were still alive to be who they were just that without powers. it wasn't a genocide.

Also many mutants could be hapy by not having useless and horrendous mutations like Beak.

[QUOTE=Grinning Soul;5517147]Indeed.

In Astonishing X-Men #2 (Whedon's run), Hank talks to Kravita.

- Kravita: I'm not playing, Dr. McCoy. There are people whose lives have been destroyed by unwanted mutation and I will give my life to help them. Whatever you and your X-Men plan to do, I won't--
- Hank: Stop. I'm not here to discuss the ethics of your "mutant cure". And I'm not here to destroy it. I just want to know if it works.

So, off-panel, Kravita gives Hank a sample for him to analyse it.

In #3, there's a 2-page pannel showing a line of 1600+ alledged mutants, outside the Benetech building, demanding the cure.

Also, in issue #3.

- Hank: It's not conclusive.
- Logan: But the sample looks good?
- Hank: So far it holds up.
- Logan: Get rid of it. Get rid of it now or I'll go through you to do it.
- Hank: Emma. She had no right to--
- Logan: She said she couldn't help it. She said you were like a billboard. Like Neon. Big neon sign, flashing: "I wanna get off. I wanna get out." Is that how it goes, McCoy? You've had enough? You wanna see how the other half lives their half-lives?
- Hank: The truth is that I don't know what I want. And that is none of your damn business.
- Logan: Wrong answer.

They fight for 2 panels, then it continues:

- Logan: You [B]Beast[/B].
- Hank: Don't push this, Logan.
- Logan: I ain't letting you--
- Hank: [B]I don't know what I am[/B]. I used to have fingers. I used to have a mouth you could kiss. I would walk down the street and... Maybe this is the secondary stage of my mutation or maybe Cassandra Nova was right. Maybe I'm devolving. My mind is still sharp, but my instincts, my emtions... You know what it's like to be out of control. What am I supposed to do, Logan? Wait until I'm lying in front of the studentes, playing with a ball of string? [B]I am a human being.[/B]
- Logan: Wrong. You're an X-Men. Some weak sister in the freshman dorm wants to drop his powers, I could care less. But an X-Men... One of us caves and it's over. It's an endorsement stamp for every single mutant to be lined up and neutered. And you know that. [B]You know that![/B] So either flush that junk down the john right now... or I'm gonna turn you into a throw-rug.
- Hank: Little man... [B]Enough![/B]

Then they fight again and Emma breaks the fight apart, using her telepathy.


I don't know... It's seems to me that it should be canon that some people who were affected by the M-Day were actually happy about it. Unless we assume all of them had been killed in Genosha by then.[/QUOTE]

This was bad stuff. If Beast wanted to get back to human looking, it was his right to do it. For a looking normal like Wolverine it is easy to say it

[QUOTE=Killerbee911;5517358]This is one of the biggest flaws of the X-men, It often overlooks that mutants would want mutants regulated but for a more interesting story. The majority of mutants act against their best interest mutants would be as terrified of Bailey Hoskins as humans would be of him. The vast majority of mutants who can't level a city would be as afraid as humans are of mutants who can level a city. That mutual fear would lead mutants to accept some sort of regulations which then cuts down the hate and fear to a small subsection of mutants maybe Omegas/Alphas and mutants who can't control their powers like Cyclops and Rogue.

Of course, that is a vastly different book where Omegas/Alphas are feared, all other mutants are just hated.[/QUOTE]

That would be a very interesting read, I'd buy that book.

I think Cyclops is an interesting case regarding his relationship to his mutation and identity among mutants, it's partly why he's my favorite. Does Rogue not have control over her powers? I thought she gained control, or was that temporary? I've been meaning to read X-Men Legacy considering she featured quite heavily in it.

[QUOTE=Big Joe;5517375]This is assuming that the worst thing that can happen to an individual is death, and that nothing else comes close. That's not the case with many cultures and religions though. Of course there's more to their identification as a mutant than the ability to fly, but taking away what makes them mutants also took away their ability to reproduce, which, within the UN definition is technically genocide.

Recently in Northern Ireland there was a vote before the parliament on whether there should be conversion therapy for LGBTQ people in the Province. There were some who actually voted that this should happen, a leader of a political party has lost her job because she was seen as too progressive because she abstained. Now, a gay man might not be killed by conversion therapy, and Joe (for example) would still be Joe, but taking away that part of a person's identity would be an utterly appalling thing to even consider doing in my opinion.[/QUOTE]

It all comes down to choice, I'd think. What Wanda did was bad, on pretty much all sorts of levels. (Particularly bad writing, since her powers never worked that way before, being retroactive, so that any mutant who 'lost their mutation' would retroactively *never have been* a mutant, and nobody would have fallen from the sky, since they couldn't possibly have been flying without an airplane around them, or whatever.)

But if a mutant *chooses* to take the mutant-cure Hope, or use some other means to de-mutant themselves (or just resolves to never use their mutation and doesn't mention it ever), it's really no different than someone choosing to transition because their self-identity doesn't match their birth-physiology. And for 90+% of mutants, when their mutation hits at puberty, it literally is a forced change in identity that some *might not want.* (Just as others might welcome it, already having felt like outsiders and loving the power or the new sense of community or 'special'ness. And then there's the humans who might want to 'transition' to mutant status. A whole new cuppa tea being explored in Children of the Atom, I suspect.)

Most newly pubescent mutants have been (or, thought they were, and lived as) human for a decade and a bit, and might not want to have *that* self-identity taken away from them, since, pre-Krakoa, at least, the options were pretty grim in most countries for living as an 'out' mutant.

[QUOTE=Sutekh;5517440]It all comes down to choice, I'd think. What Wanda did was bad, on pretty much all sorts of levels. (Particularly bad writing, since her powers never worked that way before, being retroactive, so that any mutant who 'lost their mutation' would retroactively *never have been* a mutant, and nobody would have fallen from the sky, since they couldn't possibly have been flying without an airplane around them, or whatever.)

But if a mutant *chooses* to take the mutant-cure Hope, or use some other means to de-mutant themselves (or just resolves to never use their mutation and doesn't mention it ever), it's really no different than someone choosing to transition because their self-identity doesn't match their birth-physiology. And for 90+% of mutants, when their mutation hits at puberty, it literally is a forced change in identity that some *might not want.* (Just as others might welcome it, already having felt like outsiders and loving the power or the new sense of community or 'special'ness. And then there's the humans who might want to 'transition' to mutant status. A whole new cuppa tea being explored in Children of the Atom, I suspect.)

Most newly pubescent mutants have been (or, thought they were, and lived as) human for a decade and a bit, and might not want to have *that* self-identity taken away from them, since, pre-Krakoa, at least, the options were pretty grim in most countries for living as an 'out' mutant.[/QUOTE]

Good point. Kids live one decade looking into a mirror looking one way, then after mutation they are completely different.
Amanda bynes sid tht she suffered identity problems when filming a movie that she had to dress like a boy version of herself. Now imagine it on a kid that suddenly change completely the appearence.

[QUOTE=Sutekh;5517440]It all comes down to choice, I'd think. What Wanda did was bad, on pretty much all sorts of levels. (Particularly bad writing, since her powers never worked that way before, being retroactive, so that any mutant who 'lost their mutation' would retroactively *never have been* a mutant, and nobody would have fallen from the sky, since they couldn't possibly have been flying without an airplane around them, or whatever.)

But if a mutant *chooses* to take the mutant-cure Hope, or use some other means to de-mutant themselves (or just resolves to never use their mutation and doesn't mention it ever), it's really no different than someone choosing to transition because their self-identity doesn't match their birth-physiology. And for 90+% of mutants, when their mutation hits at puberty, it literally is a forced change in identity that some *might not want.* (Just as others might welcome it, already having felt like outsiders and loving the power or the new sense of community or 'special'ness. And then there's the humans who might want to 'transition' to mutant status. A whole new cuppa tea being explored in Children of the Atom, I suspect.)

Most newly pubescent mutants have been (or, thought they were, and lived as) human for a decade and a bit, and might not want to have *that* self-identity taken away from them, since, pre-Krakoa, at least, the options were pretty grim in most countries for living as an 'out' mutant.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you, if a mutant were to make the choice themselves that's fine, not a problem, it might be similar to someone renouncing their religion I suppose. The activation of their power is part of their genetic makeup, and yes, may make a difference to their identification of themselves, and might be a shock, and might be something they never wanted, again, I agree with you.

Where I think we might differ is that I feel that, regardless of some individuals wishes, the enforced removal of their identity as a mutant would be absolutely wrong. Using my religion metaphor again it's like the Tudors trying to eradicate Catholicism in England.

Of real interest though is what you point out about base line humans wanting to transition to become mutants, I'd be intrigued to see how they'd be accepted by existing mutants, as well as by their human families and friends.

Good post, got me thinking.

[QUOTE=Devaishwarya;5517330]There were a lot of horror and suffering when the words "no more Mutants" were uttered. ...Or did I read that entire era wrong?[/QUOTE]

I guess it depends on what you consider as “a lot of horror and suffering”… It would be extremely bad taste of me to describe what I consider “a lot of horror and suffering”… Some words are thrown too easily, that’s all.

[QUOTE=ExodusCloak;5517324]The stolen generations in Australia is considered a genocide.[/QUOTE]

I’m not a jurist. And what’s the point? If I say, what happened was not a genocide, it doesn’t mean it was ok…

I actually really like wanda. Hence, i am able to enjoy the mutants hating her because it makes both her and what happened to the mutants have both complexity and nuance. I enjoy seeing the mutants be hypocritical for once and dishing out there own form of prejudice even though it can be argued it is not justified. On wanda’s perspective, i think it gives her the tragedy of a great character and makes her the coolest avenger.

I don´t think the mutants being angry over decimation is hypocritical, if they went an jailed Wanda, operated her so she could not have children anymore and used a machine to keep her from using her magical/super human powers then I would agree they were being hypocritical, because they would be doing exactly what her hex did to them but the sole act of being angry over someone hurting you is not bad on itself imo.

I liked Wanda trying to do what good/heroic people would do, accept her responsibility and try to make reparations for it, the problem is marvel just then went and turned everything on it´s head, all of a sudden Wanda is asking Rogue why do you want more mutants? and the X-men are supposed extremits for seeking justice or defending themselves from the inhuman gas or for seeking a solution for decimation. Imo this inability to allow their heroic characters from taking responsibility after marvel itself wrote them into a corner is bad writting unless what they are going for are stories in which some characters will never do wrong no matter what they do while other character are always in the wrong no matter what they do.