What do you think of Hickmans X-Men so far, still Interested or Not ??

Mutants doesn't need Sinister, they already have his DNA bank

[QUOTE=Anthony Shaw;5491924]Yes, why blame the characters when the true fault lies with the creative forces behind the books?

Speaking of the mutant massacre, it was Destiny who advised Mystique to leave the tunnels. Freedom Force could have helped their fellow mutants, but bailed.

Thor was in the tunnels, battled the Marauders, saved Angel, and gave the slain Morlocks a Viking funeral. Leaving the dead bodies would have caused a health hazard.

Also, Thor has known the O5 since they were kids.

[img]https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-WM3m1p0odHA/UoQV36hF2PI/AAAAAAAASqA/9C0LbY4p0m0/s1600/Angel.jpg[/img]

[img]https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/starwolf_oakley/11581300/643711/643711_1000.jpg[/img]

The Avengers also gave up their UN status to help out in Genosha.

[img]https://uncannyxmen.net/sites/default/files/images/crossover/bloodties/bloodties02.jpg[/img]

It was the Avengers that destroyed the Mark II Sentinels.

The Avengers have legit history of being sympathetic towards the struggles of mutants.

When the X-Men were on reprint only status, the mutant saga was continued in various Marvel books.

I think the issue is creators being too territorial with characters & stories which gives the appearance of one franchise being apathetic with another.

Captain America can endorse tolerance for mutants all the live long day, and that will not stop forces from conspiring against them. Captain America & the FF have publicly endorsed Spider-Man, yet he has been historically viewed with suspicion (although it has been years since I read Spidey).[/QUOTE]

Let's have more of this.

[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5491939]I can't think of anything in operation paperclip where a Nazi was made into a major position in the higher US government like Attorney General or Secretary of State.[/QUOTE]
Soooo any gov position below Attorney General is acceptable? lol
[QUOTE=ExodusCloak;5491951]I'm pretty sure the destruction of a culture and placing a magical lock on procreation with the goal bring "No more mutants" forfilles at least three of the definitions of a genocide.

Killing members of the group
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

As for Sinister they need him (for now) but you can see they don't like him given they sent him to his death already as well as Emmas comments to Havok about him. I see him being redundant once they borrow his equivalent from Arrakoa[/QUOTE] Plus he is tech a mutant now...gotta get thorns when you pick roses

[QUOTE=BroHomo;5492085]Soooo any gov position below Attorney General is acceptable? lol [/QUOTE]
Lmao so what's your argument then, that it's fine that a Nazi is a head of Krakoan government or that importing Nazis is bad?

Krakoa is an ethnonationalist state with a Nazi at the heart of their government who's people (including other government heads) consider themselves superior beings and the new gods of the world. Kind of sounds like the people the X-Men used to fight rather than what they aspired to be to me.

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5492018]Let's have more of this.[/QUOTE]

I enjoy the silver age, bronze age, and MCU more than modern comics because they better reflect the concept of a shared universe.

[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5492096][B]Lmao so what's your argument then, that it's fine that a Nazi is a head of Krakoan government or that importing Nazis is bad?[/B][/QUOTE]
Sinister worked with Nazis and did horrible sh!t True. But I wouldn't call him a Nazi. He has no hatred of Jewish, Swedish or any race of folks he was just there to do his ungodly experiments
[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5492096]Krakoa is an ethnonationalist state [/QUOTE]and....
[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5492096]with a Nazi at the heart of their government [/QUOTE] Eh doesnt hate like that tho...which more than I can say for a lotta places
[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5492096]who's people (including other government heads) consider themselves superior beings and the new gods of the world.[/QUOTE] Again and??? If your neighbors believe they are the immortal ruler of Mars and everyone (including you) are his sex slaves. What does it matter if he stays on his property and never harasses you or your family?
[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5492096]Kind of sounds like the people the X-Men used to fight rather than what they aspired to be to me.[/QUOTE]Yeah you're getting it!...Humans!

So I should be happy that the X-Men now act just like X-Men villains? That's the new future for the X-Men as a franchise?

[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5492146]So I should be happy that the X-Men now act just like X-Men villains? That's the new future for the X-Men as a franchise?[/QUOTE]

Not tryna tell anybody what they [B]should [/B]do. Buuuut I would [B]suggest[/B] tryin to understand a lot (if not most) readers dont feel that way, taking a step back to see if you could catch on to something you missed that everyone else seems to embrace

I get what people like about Krakoa (the same way I get that people thought Killmongers plan to take over the planet in the Black Panther movie was a good idea), but I don't like the idea of "this is who the X-Men are forever now". Like when ever has any other line just done a total 180 on their fundamental values and then was permanent? Superior Spider-Man wasn't permanent, Hydra Cap/Secret Empire wasn't permanent, AXIS wasn't permanent.

The Hickman eras brought a bunch of new ideas, but not all of them are that good or done well, and aren't inherently good just because they're new. I hope this new book proves me wrong and it's more traditional, especially since Hickman isn't writing it, but honestly if it's not the case and these characters are now permanently just not like the stuff that got me into the X-Men, why the hell should I bother sticking on? Or at the very least wait till Hickmans era is done.

[QUOTE=Anthony Shaw;5492107]I enjoy the silver age, bronze age, and MCU more than modern comics because they better reflect the concept of a shared universe.[/QUOTE]

And it doesn't even take much to accomplish that.

[QUOTE=BroHomo;5492151]Not tryna tell anybody what they [B]should [/B]do. Buuuut I would [B]suggest[/B] tryin to understand a lot (if not most) readers dont feel that way, taking a step back to see if you could catch on to something you missed that everyone else seems to embrace[/QUOTE]

You could stand to take your own advice to see the issues some of us have with the approach of this era and acknowledge that not all of our criticisms are jokes.

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5492192]You could stand to take your own advice to see the issues some of us have with the approach of this era and acknowledge that not all of our criticisms are jokes.[/QUOTE]

It's hard to take most of it seriously when it's usually in direct contradiction to what's on page

[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5492167]The Hickman eras brought a bunch of new ideas, but not all of them are that good or done well, and aren't inherently good just because they're new. I hope this new book proves me wrong and it's more traditional, especially since Hickman isn't writing it, but honestly if it's not the case and these characters are now permanently just not like the stuff that got me into the X-Men, why the hell should I bother sticking on? Or at the very least wait till Hickmans era is done.[/QUOTE]

That’s the thing I wonder too… How many readers like the way the X-men are portrayed nowadays and how many readers like new comics because it’s new stuff with people called X-men while having in mind the past characterization…

I know that some people have started reading Hickman’s run and stopped. Others are reading new stuff but keep talking about past comics like it has a connection with current comics although the characters were behaving quite differently from now.

Is it fair for me to say that the people who think the xmen are villains now that you don’t understand what is going on nor did you ever really get what the xmen were about in the first place?

[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5492346]Is it fair for me to say that the people who think the xmen are villains now that you don’t understand what is going on nor did you ever really get what the xmen were about in the first place?[/QUOTE]

I don't think they're villains, I'm saying they've adopted the superiority ideology of some of their villains.

[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5492387]I don't think they're villains, I'm saying they've adopted the superiority ideology of some of their villains.[/QUOTE]

This is true. It is the point of krakoa actually. I would argue that these villains have toned down their rhetoric quite a bit from their past selves in order to maintain the status quo which is krakoa. Can you imagine someone like sinister adopting the “kill no human” law without krakoa? Krakoa has been a melting pot of varying philosophies of mutantdom. It is still in its early stages in regards to a culture. There are plenty of idealogical differences just on the quiet council alone. It makes sense.

What do we have to wait a full decade for characters to be consistent with what we've previously seen then? I know there was lip service to the mutants still believing in the dream in X-Men 4 but it feels two years in now like something that was there to placate fans and dispel the theories that he was being controlled by Sinister than what the X-Men actually believe now. Up till the announcement of the new team at the Hellfire gala it's been supremacy, separatism, and isolationism, which aren't what I read the X-Men for.

[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5492346]Is it fair for me to say that the people who think the xmen are villains now that you don’t understand what is going on nor did you ever really get what the xmen were about in the first place?[/QUOTE]

Well ask the officials...
[img]https://i.imgur.com/CxmKWRB.jpg[/img]

[QUOTE=gonnagiveittoya;5492399]What do we have to wait a full decade for characters to be consistent with what we've previously seen then? I know there was lip service to the mutants still believing in the dream in X-Men 4 but it feels two years in now like something that was there to placate fans and dispel the theories that he was being controlled by Sinister than what the X-Men actually believe now. Up till the announcement of the new team at the Hellfire gala it's been supremacy, separatism, and isolationism, which aren't what I read the X-Men for.[/QUOTE]
What exactly are you talking about? Xavier abandoned his dream on multiple occasions. Even in the claremont era he bailed on the xmen to be with the shi’ar. Since house of m, cyclops has been consistent in his views towards mutant/human relations and taking a more militant approach. You had others like wolverine and storm who found that to be an extreme view. Those viewpoints are still there they have just evolved. Not to mention, how can you expect the same person to be that same person year after year? The vast majority of people are not the same person they were two years ago and that is without trauma and persecution.

[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5492346]Is it fair for me to say that the people who think the xmen are villains now that you don’t understand what is going on nor did you ever really get what the xmen were about in the first place?[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't say they're villains but they're certainly straddling the morally gray area.

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5492470]I wouldn't say they're villains but they're certainly straddling the morally gray area.[/QUOTE]

That’s the point. The mutants knew that going in. Xmen and villain alike.

[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5492467]What exactly are you talking about? Xavier abandoned his dream on multiple occasions. Even in the claremont era he bailed on the xmen to be with the shi’ar. Since house of m, cyclops has been consistent in his views towards mutant/human relations and taking a more militant approach. You had others like wolverine and storm who found that to be an extreme view. Those viewpoints are still there they have just evolved. Not to mention, how can you expect the same person to be that same person year after year? The vast majority of people are not the same person they were two years ago and that is without trauma and persecution.[/QUOTE]

See, I'm glad you brought up Cyclops, because even when he took that militant approach he never gave up on coexistence with humans, and that was despite first dealing with near extinction and then having nearly the entire superhero community against him and his allies. He was more justified in giving up on the dream than anyone (other than Xavier and Magneto who know Moira's secret) is now and yet no one addresses that.

[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5492473]That’s the point. The mutants knew that going in. Xmen and villain alike.[/QUOTE]

Yes, but there isn't enough questioning from characters who would have done so in the past. Other than Logan apparently.

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5492480]Yes, but there isn't enough questioning from characters who would have done so in the past. Other than Logan apparently.[/QUOTE]

There has though. I can’t get on board if we are just going to have these types of back and forth of yes they didnt type of arguments. I dunno maybe in your mind they have not been as vocal as you would like and that’s fair. It’s your opinion to have.

[QUOTE=Hizashi;5492470]I wouldn't say they're villains but they're certainly straddling the morally gray area.[/QUOTE]

You need a diversity of opinions from the various team members to have a well rounded book. The real question is have there been enough of it.

[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5492486]There has though. I can’t get on board if we are just going to have these types of back and forth of yes they didnt type of arguments. I dunno maybe in your mind they have not been as vocal as you would like and that’s fair. It’s your opinion to have.[/QUOTE]

I'll be upfront and say that I have only picked up [I]X-Men[/I] and to your point, yes, I don't feel it's done enough in that book. As the flagship, that's where it should be addressed most heavily.

Maybe it is enough for others and that's fine too, but I'm not sold on it.

I guess then I'll just wait till the X-Men goes back to being something I recognize and are interested in instead of going along waiting on Hickmans name recognition for two straight years. However soon or far off it may be.

They're okay. I'm not crazy about them. The whole "we have our own nation" thing is just too reminiscent of other Marvel Universe groups like the Inhumans, the Eternals or the Atlanteans as well as echoing similar past storylines like Genosha or Avalon or Utopia with the only thing being used to suggest it might work out better is that almost everyone, either hero or villain, is on board with it this time. And I'm going to echo some voices I'm sure have come up in this thread (and which will probably get some hardcore X-Men fans mad at me, but whatever), it's weird seeing the X-Men treating the human race so much like "The Other". Especially seeing as I'm a human. I'm used to the old way when Xavier's argument was that even if some of us are mutants, we're all human.

But then I wonder if my trouble connecting has more to do with background and age than anything else. While it's probably a supremely different experience for marginalized people, I think for straight white cis males like myself, we tend to connect more with this property when we're teenagers. Because every teenager feels like a freak who is afraid they'll never fit in anywhere. Essentially, you feel like a mutant. These days, as a thirty-something office worker, I sometimes feel like I'm a little too normal, a little too boring, like I fit in a little too well. A little too much of a "flatscan" if you will.

I think the whole concept of the new team itself kind of addresses some of this. They're putting it together to move themselves, partly at least, away from being controlled by the council. It's happening more slowly than I expected, or wanted, and the moral ambiguity - no bad thing in my view - remains. I think the interesting thing is that we're perhaps starting to see where possible splits could form with this whole thing, and it's coming from those you'd expect. Cyclops and Jean with their new team, Nightcrawler with the whole Way Of X, and Storm heading off. Of course Wolverine has had some questions since the start, and there must be others, it's just not been specifically shown.

I'm still interested to see what the political machinations are moving forward, I'd like to see that addressed more, but obviously I realise in superhero comics that can be a bit heavy and boring. But the whole premise is good, you can see the movement, in my view, if you look for it, across all the books actually. It is just going slowly. I'm happy for this to keep running this way for at least another couple of years.

[QUOTE=Big Joe;5492533]I think the whole concept of the new team itself kind of addresses some of this. They're putting it together to move themselves, partly at least, away from being controlled by the council. It's happening more slowly than I expected, or wanted, and the moral ambiguity - no bad thing in my view - remains. I think the interesting thing is that we're perhaps starting to see where possible splits could form with this whole thing, and it's coming from those you'd expect. Cyclops and Jean with their new team, Nightcrawler with the whole Way Of X, and Storm heading off. Of course Wolverine has had some questions since the start, and there must be others, it's just not been specifically shown.

I'm still interested to see what the political machinations are moving forward, I'd like to see that addressed more, but obviously I realise in superhero comics that can be a bit heavy and boring. But the whole premise is good, you can see the movement, in my view, if you look for it, across all the books actually. It is just going slowly. I'm happy for this to keep running this way for at least another couple of years.[/QUOTE]

There is also the fact that you can’t just do 20 issues of mutants arguing their ideology. Just because it isn’t explicitly shown, does not mean people don’t have their reservations. I see people talk a lot about bad writing but fail to address that the things they want to see would be bad writing. Like, if every issue of xmen or whatever book is cyclops going at it with the council then its going to get old really quick. Better to address it when its relevant to the actual story, imo.

It doesn't need to be every page of every issue but more than a handful of panels throughout the past 2 years would have been nice. Or just like, [I]showing[/I] them changing their mind about the dream instead of just Xavier doing it and then everyone else doing the same off screen.

[QUOTE=Brian B;5491443]I think Hickman should have concentrated on general prejudice against mutants and on Moira’s past lives, not past writer’s mistakes like the Morrison X-Men run.[/QUOTE]

Hey, that's an interesting view. What past writer's mistakes do you feel are happening again? What would you change in Hickman's approach?

[QUOTE=AdamFTF;5492503]But then I wonder if my trouble connecting has more to do with background and age than anything else. While it's probably a supremely different experience for marginalized people, I think for straight white cis males like myself, we tend to connect more with this property when we're teenagers. Because every teenager feels like a freak who is afraid they'll never fit in anywhere. Essentially, you feel like a mutant. These days, as a thirty-something office worker, I sometimes feel like I'm a little too normal, a little too boring, like I fit in a little too well. A little too much of a "flatscan" if you will.[/QUOTE]

I would say that if, as a teenager, you feel weird… you realise, some years later, that it’s the world that is weird. You have scraped the surface and it is not a stable, immutable world. It could end.

The X-men weren’t about being weird for me. It was about looking beyond the appareances and feeling a sense of fraternity with different people. It’s not out-of-fashion for me… like it is for X-men’s authors.

[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5492542]There is also the fact that you can’t just do 20 issues of mutants arguing their ideology. Just because it isn’t explicitly shown, does not mean people don’t have their reservations. I see people talk a lot about bad writing but fail to address that the things they want to see would be bad writing. Like, if every issue of xmen or whatever book is cyclops going at it with the council then its going to get old really quick. Better to address it when its relevant to the actual story, imo.[/QUOTE]

That's fair, however, I'm not asking it to be every issue, and I've conceded that it isn't done enough for my taste. I don't think everyone is picking up every book and this issue should've played a bigger role in the main book, written by the big man himself.

Gerry Duggan seems to have both fans and detractors so I have no choice but to see for myself what he can do. I genuinely hope to be surprised.

[QUOTE=Zelena;5492576]I would say that if, as a teenager, you feel weird… you realise, some years later, that it’s the world that is weird. You have scraped the surface and it is not a stable, immutable world. It could end.

The X-men weren’t about being weird for me. It was about looking beyond the appareances and feeling a sense of fraternity with different people. It’s not out-of-fashion for me… like it is for X-men’s authors.[/QUOTE]

[IMG]https://media.giphy.com/media/tNJqnTawlWdzf8yxUf/giphy.gif[/IMG]

I couldn't agree more.

[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5492542]There is also the fact that you can’t just do 20 issues of mutants arguing their ideology. Just because it isn’t explicitly shown, does not mean people don’t have their reservations. I see people talk a lot about bad writing but fail to address that the things they want to see would be bad writing. Like, if every issue of xmen or whatever book is cyclops going at it with the council then its going to get old really quick. Better to address it when its relevant to the actual story, imo.[/QUOTE]

This is true. Having said that, I don't necessarily think 20 issues of ideological discussion would be bad writing, I do think it wouldn't sell, and whatever anyone says the whole thing has to be sales driven.

I completely agree that it's best to address it as and when needed, it's about striking a balance, and they're getting it pretty much right because I can feel the undercurrent, and it's implied (or perhaps I'm inferring - which is just as valid) that there's some discontent.

I don't subscribe to the bad writing attacks, there is some that appears rushed, or cuts things I've felt to be important, but they've got to move the story along. By and large I've found it a breath of fresh air for the line and I'm on board for it lasting a good while longer.

Big J. and C_Danko...I couldn't agree more.
I see you and appreciate you both for your insights and perspectives.

[QUOTE=Devaishwarya;5492771]Big J. and C_Danko...I couldn't agree more.
I see you and appreciate you both for your insights and perspectives.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for that. I'm happy there are people who have similar views to me. There are times when I read these boards and think I've been buying different comics. Cane_Danko and I seem to have fairly similar views, but I can see the points of many others, and I think most of us have common ground about the line, it's perhaps just how we express ourselves I think.

[QUOTE=Big Joe;5492690]This is true. Having said that, I don't necessarily think 20 issues of ideological discussion would be bad writing, I do think it wouldn't sell, and whatever anyone says the whole thing has to be sales driven.

I completely agree that it's best to address it as and when needed, it's about striking a balance, and they're getting it pretty much right because I can feel the undercurrent, and it's implied (or perhaps I'm inferring - which is just as valid) that there's some discontent.

I don't subscribe to the bad writing attacks, there is some that appears rushed, or cuts things I've felt to be important, but they've got to move the story along. By and large I've found it a breath of fresh air for the line and I'm on board for it lasting a good while longer.[/QUOTE]

To be fair, i don’t 100% disagree with you on this aspect. I think there is a lot of drama that is building towards this and its an undercurrent if i can call it that. Sometimes, the anti-human sentiment is a bit heavy handed and i can see where that would make people uncomfortable. The thing that separates our view, i think, is i am willing to see where this leads. In fact, i am looking forward to it. I think a lot of our real world ideologies are similar to what is going on in krakoa. Albeit, it is a fantastical sense of what we see happening to not only marginalized people, but to groups who have been persecuted throughout history. I think with all things, it will be easier to judge in retrospect. I was not a die hard hickman fan prior to his xmen run. I never even heard of him, to be honest. I don’t read marvel outside the xmen. I will say xmen had been stagnating for me up until dawn of x, to which i felt like, wow! This is actually something new! And its saying something! The past few years had been back and forth for me between nostalgic and even downright boring. Then this guy hickman comes in and shakes up the whole x-universe. I am here for it. I want to see where it goes. So, yeah, in that sense i am bias. So, if i come off strongly defending it, that is why.

[QUOTE=Cane_danko;5492834]To be fair, i don’t 100% disagree with you on this aspect. I think there is a lot of drama that is building towards this and its an undercurrent if i can call it that. Sometimes, the anti-human sentiment is a bit heavy handed and i can see where that would make people uncomfortable. The thing that separates our view, i think, is i am willing to see where this leads. In fact, i am looking forward to it. I think a lot of our real world ideologies are similar to what is going on in krakoa. Albeit, it is a fantastical sense of what we see happening to not only marginalized people, but to groups who have been persecuted throughout history. I think with all things, it will be easier to judge in retrospect. I was not a die hard hickman fan prior to his xmen run. I never even heard of him, to be honest. I don’t read marvel outside the xmen. I will say xmen had been stagnating for me up until dawn of x, to which i felt like, wow! This is actually something new! And its saying something! The past few years had been back and forth for me between nostalgic and even downright boring. Then this guy hickman comes in and shakes up the whole x-universe. I am here for it. I want to see where it goes. So, yeah, in that sense i am bias. So, if i come off strongly defending it, that is why.[/QUOTE]

I think you've spotted, and articulated, our slight difference perfectly, and it is only a slight difference. I've got a few little concerns about the anti-human sentiment, and the worry for me is only that it backs the entire line into a corner. Fortunately, I think the new team, and the upcoming new books are speeding up how my concerns are being looked at.

Like yourself I trust the writing group and I'm looking forward to where it leads and, again, like yourself, I see real world parallels. I'm from the UK and the whole leaving the EU thing over the past five years or so has hugely polarised political thinking, and has tribalised, if you like, the views of people who were good friends before, but who can't even speak to each other anymore. So, from that viewpoint, I really know how easily opinion can consolidate, so I don't particularly see the entire change of point of view of certain people as being as alien as some fans obviously do.

I completely agree the line had been going through the motions, and stagnating, for years. It's why I agree with you that this whole direction was a breath of fresh air. From my point of view your defence of the direction isn't a problem, I'm happy to see it.

I do come from a slightly different viewpoint I suppose, because I do read a lot of other Marvel books, perhaps that's why you and I have our slight differences.

It's great to have these kinds of discussions where we can differ but not try to belittle each other's points of view, so thanks for your valuable insights.